The Basics of Empathing

Alvan · 03-18-2008 11:51 PM

Welcome to the Basics of Empathing. (PvE)

Warning: Guide might contain opinions.

Quite many Empaths call themselves Healers, but to be truthful.. You are healer until the level where you take your first Buffing power (Fortitude). After that you might heal, but you are awesome because you have awesome buffs.

You prevent people dying by buffing their defense and their regeneration. You keep people doing more damage by buffing their recovery, their recharge, their tohit and their damage. You're a buffer.

Also. You make the call what powers to pick and how to use them. But if you skip Fortitude, don't wonder if people whine. It's the best damn buff, ever. There is no excuse for skipping it. Really. Single Fortitude will save more lives than a Heal.

These are the powers at your disposal and some tips how to use them:

Healing Aura
You're doing it wrong: if you have it on auto and think you're using it awesomely like that as people are getting omg-healed everywhere.
You're doing it right: If you use it situationally to heal off AoE damage dealt to the group. If you're using it to measure if people are in RA range. If you're healing with it when people have taken damage.

Heal Other
You're doing it wrong: ... I have absolutely no idea how you can actively fail at using Heal Other. It's probably the only sure power you have.
You're doing it right: If you use it to heal people after they take damage. If you keep yourself positioned in places where you have good line of sight to all your teammates and they're in range of your Heal Other so you can use it when necessary.

Absorb Pain
You're doing it wrong: If you use it when you have aggro on you. If you use it to heal damage that can be healed with Heal Other and it's recharged. If you only have Absorb Pain and no heal other. (and according to many (not me, I like it)... if you have Absorb Pain)
You're doing it right: If you use it to heal the Kheld that has just been hit by a Quant or Void. If you heal the Tanker that's taken over 50% damage. If you heal people with it when your heal other isn't recharged and your team (but not you) is taking constant damage from a high burst damage source.

Resurrect
You're doing it wrong: When after a teamwipe you use it on a character that doesn't have rez, if there is an option to use it on one that has. If you wait until the combat is over before you resurrect your teammates.
You're doing it right: If you resurrect your teammates as soon as they go down. If you wait before resurrecting because a teammate has Fallout or Vengeance and they're using it. If you resurrect someone after a teamwipe who will benefit in the teamwipe recovery process (another rezzer, someone with speedboost, etc.).

Clear Mind
You're doing it wrong: If you're providing only the tankers with it. If you're not keeping the other person on the team who has a similar power (ID, Clarity, CM...) Clear Minded when going against mobs who do mezzing.
You're doing it right: If you manage to keep the squishies Clear Minded at all times. If you renew their Clear Minds every time you use Fort (<- this will result in bit of an excess use of the power, but at least you keep it on everyone who needs it at all times). If you answer to people's "zzzz"s with using the power, not some witty "well why are sleeping on the job" remark.

Fortitude
You're doing it wrong: You're providing it to a person that doesn't benefit most on your team from it. If you don't use it as soon as it's available. See below.
You're doing it right: If you're using it for what it is for. It's a +def, +tohit, +damage power. If you consider who on the team benefits most from these and use it accordingly. (Usually Tankers, Scrappers and Blasters/Khelds should be on top of your list.) If you keep it on people as much as possible - Most people who advertise on being "Empathy Defenders" have enough recharges on this power (and have Hasten) to keep it on three people simultaneously, so pick three people who need it most and keep it on them.

Recovery Aura
You're doing it wrong: If you're using it only on yourself. If you don't use it on the people on the team who are endurance hogs (you'll see it from the diminishing size of their blue bar). If you use it when people aren't going into combat (short duration, it's wasted on people who are standing around)
You're doing it right: If you keep an eye on the people who need, and try to use it on them. If most of the team needs it, you call people to gather if they're scattered before using it. If you use it mid-combat to help a person counter a near-fatal end-loss if the rest of the team can handle themselves.

Regeneration Aura
You're doing it wrong: If you're providing it only to people who aren't going to be damaged. This is another one of those really-hard-to-mess-up-using powers.
You're doing it right: If you use it on the character who is going to get aggro from a mob. If you take heed from the other RA's "you're doing it right" section and use common sense in applying it.

Adrenalin Boost
You're doing it wrong: If you're firing it at the first target available as soon as it's up.
You're doing it right: If you realize it's a situational power that can benefit many different character types in many different situations. It's an insane +regen, +recovery, +recharge boost with +res(slow) added on top. If the Blaster goes Nuke, this will go a long way in getting him back into action. If the tanker is slowed, this will get him back to aggro-management business. Etc. If there is no situational need for it in the team, you use it on the person who benefits most from it (has long-recharging powers, has need fore +recovery or needs that +regen buff)

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[url="http://www.the-cow.net/"][color=red]The CoW Network (Blog) /[/url][url="http://www.collegeofwar.com/"][color=blue]/ College of War[/url]

Braddack · 03-19-2008 01:29 AM

Well done Alvan.
Hopefully some of the "healorz" People read this and get an Enlightment.
Its an shame to see so many Empaths around who not automaticly CM an other Empath in Team.

I am an little Different because i am an Troller with /Emph.
But even i manage to provide the Buffs most Times.
And there is nothing more Fun as trolling around with 2 Fire/Kins at an Lvl 50 Map and see them running Amok because the always Hit, get no single Mezz, Make awsome Damage even with no FS on, Reggen like Hell and cant believe they ever needed another Teammember beside an Emph/* or */ Emph.

Greetings Braddack
*proud provider of Empathie Buffs*

Dark_Blasphemy_EU · 03-19-2008 01:43 AM

Lol, original way to make a guide... and quite accurate too... I knew you could do better than with your 'PvP' blaster

Great guide dude!

New Dawn · 03-19-2008 06:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Healing Aura
You're doing it wrong: if you have it on auto and think you're using it awesomely like that as people are getting omg-healed everywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well for me its: used unnecessarily in some high paced and yet the not too survivable without you teams On top of using other powers you may find yourself eventually too low on endurance to use a the larger endurance costing powers. Those times when a emergency Res or something is required but you can't get it out until you gain more end. Having to use it amongst areas of effects that could render you incapable of action is not a good thing but sometimes you have little time to cause otherwise by getting people in for a pre buff of RegA or choice because they all are playing to a insane dynamic. Like closely crowding a PBAoEing AV thats better than Siege or Tyrant at it

[ QUOTE ]
Absorb Pain
You're doing it wrong: If you use it when you have aggro on you. If you use it to heal damage that can be healed with Heal Other and it's recharged. If you only have Absorb Pain and no heal other. (and according to many (not me, I like it)... if you have Absorb Pain)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well its not a good idea to persistently use it on a knuckle head who will have you save them till you drop. Keeping your threat level low and being able to stay outside of the damage/effect aoes or using it along with RegA makes it pretty safe. A good idea to watch your health bar. Fight points that don't offer you range to use this safely are potentially bad depending on the enemy.

[ QUOTE ]
Resurrect
You're doing it wrong: When after a teamwipe you use it on a character that doesn't have rez, if there is an option to use it on one that has. If you wait until the combat is over before you resurrect your teammates.
You're doing it right: If you resurrect your teammates as soon as they go down. If you wait before resurrecting because a teammate has Fallout or Vengeance and they're using it. If you resurrect someone after a teamwipe who will benefit in the teamwipe recovery process (another rezzer, someone with speedboost, etc.).

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a grey area. No point ressing someone in the zone of heavy fire because they are very likely to go down again and maybe you too. Its often best if the area of fire/effects is displaced elsewhere before ressing people.

[ QUOTE ]
Clear Mind
You're doing it wrong: If you're providing only the tankers with it. If you're not keeping the other person on the team who has a similar power (ID, Clarity, CM...) Clear Minded when going against mobs who do mezzing.
You're doing it right: If you manage to keep the squishies Clear Minded at all times. If you renew their Clear Minds every time you use Fort (<- this will result in bit of an excess use of the power, but at least you keep it on everyone who needs it at all times). If you answer to people's "zzzz"s with using the power, not some witty "well why are sleeping on the job" remark.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Cast time of Clear mind according to mids is a full 3.1 secs, middle of the fight CMing can mean not reacting to someones health bar traffic lighting in time. Its a good idea for teams to play in a way to keep the amount of them who will need it down or allow for fast spamming between fights. Fast spamming of it between fights is why some ppl super rechg it. The cast time of CM is lengthy.

[ QUOTE ]
Fortitude
You're doing it wrong: You're providing it to a person that doesn't benefit most on your team from it. If you don't use it as soon as it's available. See below.
You're doing it right: If you're using it for what it is for. It's a +def, +tohit, +damage power. If you consider who on the team benefits most from these and use it accordingly. (Usually Tankers, Scrappers and Blasters/Khelds should be on top of your list.) If you keep it on people as much as possible - Most people who advertise on being "Empathy Defenders" have enough recharges on this power (and have Hasten) to keep it on three people simultaneously, so pick three people who need it most and keep it on them.

[/ QUOTE ]

The +damage is almost meaningless when people are slotted up in the later levels. I fort those by their order of threat level. Tank if he keeps all the aggro (if not they usually don't need it) then whoever appears to be second and then third etc on the threat list. The list will differ versus enemies and peoples playstyles but normally I most likely find in no time who I would normally be having to heal the most.

[ QUOTE ]
Recovery Aura
You're doing it wrong: If you're using it only on yourself. If you don't use it on the people on the team who are endurance hogs (you'll see it from the diminishing size of their blue bar). If you use it when people aren't going into combat (short duration, it's wasted on people who are standing around)
You're doing it right: If you keep an eye on the people who need, and try to use it on them. If most of the team needs it, you call people to gather if they're scattered before using it. If you use it mid-combat to help a person counter a near-fatal end-loss if the rest of the team can handle themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some people call for a buff before seeing the next group, in fact the next group is back across the mission floor, down the lifts and up some other lifts. It doesn't hurt to use it when its actually required and often better. I may run in and buff people when I know they are going to need it and scoot back out. But definitely at the start of an AV. Same with RegenAura except RegenAura could be more prior to the highest levels of enemy in the mission (normally there are some groups higher than others and the bosses also.

[ QUOTE ]
Adrenalin Boost
You're doing it wrong: If you're firing it at the first target available as soon as it's up.
You're doing it right: If you realize it's a situational power that can benefit many different character types in many different situations. It's an insane +regen, +recovery, +recharge boost with +res(slow) added on top. If the Blaster goes Nuke, this will go a long way in getting him back into action. If the tanker is slowed, this will get him back to aggro-management business. Etc. If there is no situational need for it in the team, you use it on the person who benefits most from it (has long-recharging powers, has need fore +recovery or needs that +regen buff)

[/ QUOTE ]

If is subject to much end drain say, they get priority, not the Blaster. If the Tank detoggles the rest of the team can be at risk. Nukes recharge faster than RA but then aren't always the best idea in some situations ie all it does is take half their health, scatter them and leave the Tank trying to determine which one will lose their taunt effect first. If the Tanker is standing in quicksand with no slow resist good luck to the Blaster.

I am evil if my call for buffs is ignored then I ignore the team. Everyone gets buffed as and when I can, when I determine its alright, sometimes I have other people to see to and am not certain peoples personal buff bot, I do prefer CMing ppl to leave them the freedom of falling back over seeing them held and me having to constantly heal them. Freedom of mind is the greatest thing but the cast time is so sodding long

Be good to have other peoples opinion aye.

He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

Alvan · 03-19-2008 06:53 AM

Agree with what you're saying, and most of what you've written is almost "empathy pro tips" -area. But one thing...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fortitude

[/ QUOTE ]

The +damage is almost meaningless when people are slotted up in the later levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a /devices blaster I disagree on this . While it's true in most cases a small +dmg buff doesn't matter, it can really crank up the kill in teams that are a bit low on their DPS. And for example when in a team with a forcefielder in the mix, you can pretty much safely ignore buffing the tankers with Fort even if they're knee-deep in enemies (unless going against some specific foes...) and focus on the damage-dealers (and yes, the two aren't necessarily exclusive...). But situational changes are something that just need to be learned by each emp individually...

[b][color=blue]Coldest War /[color=red]/ Omega Patient[/b]
[url="http://www.the-cow.net/"][color=red]The CoW Network (Blog) /[/url][url="http://www.collegeofwar.com/"][color=blue]/ College of War[/url]

Extremus · 03-19-2008 07:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The +damage is almost meaningless when people are slotted up in the later levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

What.

No, that's dumb. Unless you've got a Kin on the team with Fulcrum Shift the Damage is always usefull. No AT Self-Cap's damage apart from Kin and maybe Dark Melee.

Dark_Blasphemy_EU · 03-19-2008 08:42 AM

Yup, in high level teams I'd forti first the damage dealers, in order of the damage they can dish. If there is a tank and I can't keep him on his toes at those levels without forti, then I'm doing something terribly wrong. On the other hand, aoe blasters with that huge +dmg buff become real monsters

New Dawn · 03-19-2008 10:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The +damage is almost meaningless when people are slotted up in the later levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

What.

No, that's dumb. Unless you've got a Kin on the team with Fulcrum Shift the Damage is always usefull. No AT Self-Cap's damage apart from Kin and maybe Dark Melee.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I said its almost meaningless. Comparatively speaking it is. Try to come up with a constructive post to suggest otherwise if you wish to argue a point. I suggest you find out the difference in damage it makes on someone who has their attacks 3 damage slotted and compare it to the difference to the level of defense buff it has to offer.

Various enemies have also have an artificial intelligence that will say for example "go for the controller!" In every mission within the first few fights I will find out who are the first 3 people most likely to get damaged and fort them.

The damage buff is really small when I tested it on a Firetank I was a bit gutted. I'd choose keeping whoever is most likely to get hurt alive over +31% of base damage. Normally the blaster is number 3 so the blaster often gets buffed anyway.

Edit: Ofc teamed with several other defenders as so many are today the possible need to be about support first can be secondary.

He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

Tainted_Greek_EU · 03-19-2008 01:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Various enemies have also have an artificial intelligence that will say for example "go for the controller!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Which enemies might that be? Interesting

Carnifax · 03-19-2008 01:38 PM

Isn't 31% of base damage basically another SO in every power?

Maelwys · 03-19-2008 02:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Various enemies have also have an artificial intelligence that will say for example "go for the controller!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Which enemies might that be? Interesting

[/ QUOTE ]
Fire Blasters?

Nothing in PvE will go for a Controller first, but it's theoretically possible to code something that way. Certain mobs are weighted to assign a higher threat level to certain enemies (Voids HATE Khelds, for example).

But remember that a n00b Controller that opens with a ranged AoE immobilise before aggro is locked down is going to be getting an alpha strike upside the head regardless of what the mob "thinks" of them!

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't 31% of base damage basically another SO in every power?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. It's noticable, consider that Defender-level "Assault" is only +18.75% Damage. Fort gives +31.25%.

Personally I'd usually 'Fort the Tanker first, Blaster second and Scrapper 3rd. On a team without a LOT of buffs floating about, a Tanker gets slightly more out of the +Defence than the Blaster will the +Damage. A Blaster will virtually always get more out of it than a Scrapper though (since they can really use the +Defence too, and though 'Defiance 2.0' cheapened the effect of +Damage buffs on Blasters, every little helps!)

Tainted_Greek_EU · 03-19-2008 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Various enemies have also have an artificial intelligence that will say for example "go for the controller!" In every mission within the first few fights I will find out who are the first 3 people most likely to get damaged and fort them.

[/ QUOTE ]

This i know Mael but

[ QUOTE ]
Various enemies have also have an artificial intelligence that will say for example "go for the controller!" In every mission within the first few fights I will find out who are the first 3 people most likely to get damaged and fort them.

[/ QUOTE ]

This arguement is invalid and incomprehensible. What is the relation between an "imaginary AI" which is not there and the three players that will get more damage? None because the damage they receive is only based on the players skill and their AT.

I will personally fort damage dealers (blasters first) and tanker and just keep the rest alive.

EDIT: Nice Guide Alvan

Okton · 03-19-2008 02:31 PM

Nice guide Alvan!

[ QUOTE ]
there is nothing more Fun as trolling around with 2 Fire/Kins at an Lvl 50 Map and see them running Amok because the always Hit, get no single Mezz, Make awsome Damage even with no FS on

[/ QUOTE ]
Ermm... I don't think so.

CoX 50s: <ill/rad> <ice/ice> <fire/kin> <grav/sonic> <ice/storm> <earth/kin> <kin/elec> <cold/psy> <thugs/dark> <fire/dark> <dark/elec> <night widow> <EM/ninj> <mind/icy>

Braddack · 03-19-2008 02:53 PM

Forti is easy, first the Aliens, then Scrapper, then Blaster or Tank, depends if Tank needs no futher Def the Blaster is first hee.

Braddack

Alvan · 03-19-2008 08:59 PM

Thank you all for the encouraging comments.

The whole guide idea got started over the SG chat when people were complaining how they hate teaming with bad empaths, and how it's even worse when these said cases think they're the awesome as long as they keep healing... and no-one on the team has seen a single Fortitude or Clear Mind in two missions, even when asked for one (and the Empath has the powers).

If the guide makes some Empath look at his powers and their effects again and realize they have much more to offer than plain heals, my work here is done

[b][color=blue]Coldest War /[color=red]/ Omega Patient[/b]
[url="http://www.the-cow.net/"][color=red]The CoW Network (Blog) /[/url][url="http://www.collegeofwar.com/"][color=blue]/ College of War[/url]

Braddack · 03-20-2008 12:38 AM

[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">Antwort auf:[/color]<hr />
there is nothing more Fun as trolling around with 2 Fire/Kins at an Lvl 50 Map and see them running Amok because the always Hit, get no single Mezz, Make awsome Damage even with no FS on

[/ QUOTE ]
Ermm... I don't think so.

Erm, i am an Stone Troller , +31 % More Damage via AB is awsome for me

kokuryu_EU · 03-20-2008 12:44 AM

Fortitude maybe worth one damage SO but the Defense that can be on offer from fort is nearly equal to a 3 slotted Super Reflex toggle except all attacks.

So I imagine rather than increase a well slotted blasters damage by 1/6th. Shannon is more interested in keeping people alive and as a result of not having to heal as much find more time to do more than that 1/6th of damage with her defender herself.

Keeping the Tanker and Controller safe and more accurate improves the chances of damage mitigation and that might have more of an impact on the damage levels of the entire team as everyone is able to do their jobs from less defeats and because the level damage mitigation is there.

Then again the faster everything is defeated the better except the extra 1/6th doesn't sound like a lot.

Lets not assume every team consists of there being a Tanker either and take into account how people play, different powers do achieve more aggro than others. I do believe there is a Dev comment that in other words says that certain npcs will identify and pick out certain characters for some reason unless controlled to do otherwise. So I am with Shannon on this quite frankly.

Blue_Note · 03-20-2008 02:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
there is nothing more Fun as trolling around with 2 Fire/Kins at an Lvl 50 Map and see them running Amok because the always Hit, get no single Mezz, Make awsome Damage even with no FS on

[/ QUOTE ]
Ermm... I don't think so.

Erm, i am an Stone Troller , +31 % More Damage via AB is awsome for me

[/ QUOTE ]

I really wonder how you get +dam from AB

New Dawn · 03-20-2008 02:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
there is nothing more Fun as trolling around with 2 Fire/Kins at an Lvl 50 Map and see them running Amok because the always Hit, get no single Mezz, Make awsome Damage even with no FS on

[/ QUOTE ]
Ermm... I don't think so.

Erm, i am an Stone Troller , +31 % More Damage via AB is awsome for me

[/ QUOTE ]

I really wonder how you get +dam from AB

[/ QUOTE ]

If his best attacks or +dam/-res/+tohit etc buff powers rechg faster and he uses them then he is doing more damage as a result if its buffs that improve other peoples damage then they rechg faster and its a nice knock on effect. Okton is talking some sense to me. I may even provide AB on another empath depending on how the team play and it might make them look better but it is a call that could be the best one to make. It is for no different reasons to making sure another defender or controller is perma cmed. If everyones fit to offer more than they can then hopefully a defender wouldn't end up healing so much and do more than the blasters extra 1/6th themself. 9/10 the blaster is in the fort cycle, they don't always have to be but they end up being so even if its just for the dam.

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Nothing in PvE will go for a Controller first, but it's theoretically possible to code something that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes its better if a controller is either first to effect the enemy, second to effect the enemy and not suddenly become the healer frantically trying to save everyone from being overwhelmed. To control additional tohit helps alot. Your statement is factually incorrect because controllers possess a threat level, powers that can achieve aggro and the ability to act in the manner that they decide too. They aren't henchmen or pets on guard mode waiting to act on anyones ready and are subject things from other peoples playstyles.

[ QUOTE ]
Fortitude maybe worth one damage SO but the Defense that can be on offer from fort is nearly equal to a 3 slotted Super Reflex toggle except all attacks.

So I imagine rather than increase a well slotted blasters damage by 1/6th. Shannon is more interested in keeping people alive and as a result of not having to heal as much find more time to do more than that 1/6th of damage with her defender herself.

Keeping the Tanker and Controller safe and more accurate improves the chances of damage mitigation and that might have more of an impact on the damage levels of the entire team as everyone is able to do their jobs from less defeats and because the level damage mitigation is there.

Then again the faster everything is defeated the better except the extra 1/6th doesn't sound like a lot.

Lets not assume every team consists of there being a Tanker either and take into account how people play, different powers do achieve more aggro than others. I do believe there is a Dev comment that in other words says that certain npcs will identify and pick out certain characters for some reason unless controlled to do otherwise. So I am with Shannon on this quite frankly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this.

The first thing I saw wrong with the guide is "black and white" rules. In almost any given situation is as if one should play by the same rules. There are more shades of gray. If you routinely follow the norm that is what most players do then your just a lemming. I join a team, certain people consistently get more aggro than others and they become part of my fort cycle until what is happening says otherwise. I'd rather alive players than dead players and a blaster doing 1/6th more damage in the latter levels. Normally a Blaster ends up being part of that cycle for the sake of his/her health and healing badges aren't top of my agenda.

As a defender the priority is in keeping people upstanding, which isn't always possible because you can not control what other players do, foresee everything or defy game mechanics. Usually a Blaster is in the top 3 to be forted, normally after the Controller and/or Tanker, if a Scrapper is in first pseudo tanking then they are good to be forted as the more damage they do before others attack the more likely they are to keep aggro, blasters normally aren't as good for aggro control. With the controller its often about making sure their controls land or def if stray aggro isn't caught by the size of the aoes or for when say the pet army disappears. I don't follow a set rule though of picking on ATs I just look at who is getting attacked and taking more damage than others for whatever reason.

The title of the guide says "The Basics of Empathing" and for that its a good guide to get people started imo. In the early levels the fort on the blaster makes more of a difference than in the later. I just thought its lacking in shades of gray.

My concerns aren't ever in seeing old dogs learn new tricks, my concerns are in seeing new players not following or being expected to follow set rules. I do not play by other peoples set rules and so I am not subject to their limitations.

If I did a guide for empathy I would of gone into the defender section first for everyones ideas. I might defend my own but then still offer all alternative advice.

He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

Maelwys · 03-20-2008 05:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nothing in PvE will go for a Controller first, but it's theoretically possible to code something that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes its better if a controller is either first to effect the enemy, second to effect the enemy and not suddenly become the healer frantically trying to save everyone from being overwhelmed. To control additional tohit helps alot. Your statement is factually incorrect because controllers possess a threat level, powers that can achieve aggro and the ability to act in the manner that they decide too. They aren't henchmen or pets on guard mode waiting to act on anyones ready and are subject things from other peoples playstyles.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're making this far more complicated and confusing than it needs to be. You appeared to be saying that certain types of enemies are coded to "prefer attacking controllers". That is wrong.

Yes, any controller can pull aggro by using their powers without other aggro control- this is true for ANY AT, and I even pointed it out in the paragraph immediately after the one you quoted. However given that a Controller's threat multplier is the lowest possible for any AT, and we know of NO enemies that are coded to "prefer controllers" (in the same way that voids are coded to "prefer kheldians") there is NOTHING in PvE that will automatically start beating on a controller over any other toon.

In other words, if you place a mob between several toons, it's going to go for the one with the highest threat level (not controllers- the only way to get a lower threat level than a controller is to use stealth powers) or the one that it's coded to prefer fighting (not controllers- nothing "automatically hates" them).

Dark_Blasphemy_EU · 03-20-2008 05:43 AM

I still think than an empath uncapable of having a tank on his toes without forti is doing something terribly wrong. In fact, an empath uncapable of having a blaster taking the alpha on a 6 man spawn on his toes without forti is doing something terribly wrong too, so the argumentation about offering more defense than damage is a bit useless imo. Granted, a bad slotted tank may need some heals without any buff on an 8 man team but that is not something that should stress the empath much. On the other side, the +buffage on heavy dmg dealers can boost the xp or inf per minute a huge lot.

Alvan · 03-20-2008 06:25 AM

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The first thing I saw wrong with the guide is "black and white" rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry to hear that you find the tone of the guide "wrong". It is meant for people who have an Empath and haven't fully explored the ATs possibilities. The strict black-and-white tone comes from the fact it is actively trying to change a playstyle with a single post, and in my opinion, trying to emphasize how every situation is unique and these might not be the best ways to do things don't fit that purpose, as a regular Healer might think they're doing things right and ignore the advice. In my opinion, once a person grasps the basics, they usually realize that there are situations where the regular rules don't apply (even the Healers realize that they can't heal another Empath who has just used Absorb Pain or in the old days someone who had used MoG). But if they spend 50 levels following the team with Heal Aura on auto and calling themselves master empaths because the green numbers are so high, this will never happen.

This said. I do like the first long post you wrote. It goes into the finer details and offers alternatives. It is sort of the second lecture after the first

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Tainted_Greek_EU · 03-20-2008 08:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes its better if a controller is either first to effect the enemy, second to effect the enemy and not suddenly become the healer frantically trying to save everyone from being overwhelmed. To control additional tohit helps alot. Your statement is factually incorrect because controllers possess a threat level, powers that can achieve aggro and the ability to act in the manner that they decide too. They aren't henchmen or pets on guard mode waiting to act on anyones ready and are subject things from other peoples playstyles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously....what?

New Dawn · 03-20-2008 08:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes its better if a controller is either first to effect the enemy, second to effect the enemy and not suddenly become the healer frantically trying to save everyone from being overwhelmed. To control additional tohit helps alot. Your statement is factually incorrect because controllers possess a threat level, powers that can achieve aggro and the ability to act in the manner that they decide too. They aren't henchmen or pets on guard mode waiting to act on anyones ready and are subject things from other peoples playstyles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously....what?

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I don't teach a old dog new tricks especially dumb as ones by a controller in first don't imagine tanking, imagine mass hypnosis, confuse etc but then you get controllers opening up with something silly in game not playing to some forumite players rules.

Something for Kokuryu:

What you read is probably this:

[ QUOTE ]
Not *quite* correct:
Threat:
Tanker, Brute = 4
Scrapper = 3
Kheldian = 2 (3 in Dwarf form)
Stalker, Mastermind = 2
Everyone else = 1

Taunt AT Multiple (which effects the Taunt Duration):
Tanker, Brute, Stalker = 1
Scrapper = 0.75
Kheldians = 0.85
Everyone Else = 0.5

EVerything is multiplied. For damage, a simplified version is:
DMG * TauntDurationRemaining * ThreatMod * AI Preferences * RangeMod.

AI Preferences can be things like "I prefer to attack Scrappers", "I *really* hate Kheldians!", "Kill the healer!", "Attack the last person to attack me!" or any of about 40 or 50 other variables that we can set.

Edited for clarity

[/ QUOTE ]

I edited out his spelling mistake but thats it. I wasn't going to dig it up but then surprisingly cos normally I can't be bothered but surprisingly ran into it anyway. My posts haven't been generalizing like some others I expect have been; ie "lets assume there is always a Tanker on the team who always does this" without actually saying.

I think its better to actually get into a team, see whats going on and then decide who gets what because the priority is keeping people upstanding because its -dam if someone isn't.

Its a good guide to get started don't get me wrong but I wouldn't make things sound as though there is a "right!" and "wrong!" for every situation.

He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

Maelwys · 03-20-2008 08:48 AM

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Everyone Else = 1

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
Everyone Else = 0.5

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"Controllers" == "Everyone Else"

Note that 1 and 0.5 are the LOWEST multipliers listed for threat level and taunt effectiveness.
This means that Controllers by default will be targetted joint last (with Defenders and Blasters).

[ QUOTE ]
AI Preferences [u]can be[u] things like "I prefer to attack Scrappers", "I *really* hate Kheldians!", "Kill the healer!", "Attack the last person to attack me!" or any of about 40 or 50 other variables that we [u]can[u] set.

[/ QUOTE ]
"Can" != "Do"

Just because something is possible within the game engine, doesn't mean there are any enemies that are set up that way. In fact, the only enemies we know of that actively target one AT over another are Voids.

[ QUOTE ]
"Healer" is "The last entity which used an Absolute Heal attribute on my current target." [u]In practice, I don't know of any AI's that use anything but a default value for this.[u]

[/ QUOTE ] - Castle (Source)

See above.

Whilst it's THOERETICALLY POSSIBLE to tell an enemy type to go after Healers, none have been told to do so.
(This last comment is both pointing out that therefore Controllers are very likely never "pre-emptively targetted", and also making a futile attempt to keep the whole thing on-topic by referring to "Healers" )