Tsk! You should really know that only PvPers can tell what should be done to get more people into PvP zones. Give more rewards!!! 
But seriously, I agree with most of your points.
I have a slight problem with 3. as it depends a little bit on AT and powersets how different a PvE build is from a PvP build. There are some builds that are quite good at both.
Some of your solutions are not that optimal, for example disabling inventions would favour HO-builds (which wouldn't make things any better), but all in all this reads a lot better than some suggestions by PvPers who can often be summarised with "I want more loot" and/or "I want more helpless victims".
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
1. I can'r see why giving rewards wouldn't be a nice add-on. Actually, experience should say otherwise: sirens was much more populated when SO's meant something, RV when it was a good place to farm xp/inf... Some worth rewards (even better if they were exclusive) would be a good starting point imo.
2. When IO's were just on test I did say inventions were not going to be a good thing for PvP, and most people disagreed. I haven't changed my mind since. Anyways disabling them for PvP would be a dumb solution, as many builds are done with sets in mind, sacrificing some powers and many slots for them in most cases.
3. A dual build that was switch automatically when entering a pvp zone/arena has been suggested many times, in a way that you could use a PvE build for PvE and a PVP build for arena/zones. However, devs seem not to think it's a important feature (thus showing us how much they care about PvP community).
4. The guys that bark in the zones won't usually back that up in arena. Most experienced PvPers (but a couple of exceptions) are the ones verbally harrassed in the zones for killing those casuals that also harrass when they kill guys that are even more casual or in PvE builds.
5. You can't avoid people who likes PvP to have good builds for that. After all if your build is not min/max, as you say, is because you prefer it that way. Ofc you may say that you don't want to ruin your fun PvE build, but that would take us again to the dual builds thingy that we all know devs are not considering.
6. Well it's up to RPers how they consider PvP fights... I mean they could take it as they are bounty hunters after some dangerous (let's face it, even the worst PvPer is a bigger challenge than PvE) criminals/villain hunters -depending on what game you are playing-, or that it's a major war between both factions... I dunno, the fact that there isn't a story doesn't mean that people can not imagine one.
Anyway my 2 cents
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1. I can'r see why giving rewards wouldn't be a nice add-on. Actually, experience should say otherwise: sirens was much more populated when SO's meant something, RV when it was a good place to farm xp/inf... Some worth rewards (even better if they were exclusive) would be a good starting point imo.
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To the contrary: rewards would be a nice follow-up. If the other points are not adressed first, rewards would only create new quarrels of farmers vs. PvPers. In my eyes RV is a negative example of what happens when you lure PvEers into the zones with rewards.
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2. When IO's were just on test I did say inventions were not going to be a good thing for PvP, and most people disagreed. I haven't changed my mind since. Anyways disabling them for PvP would be a dumb solution, as many builds are done with sets in mind, sacrificing some powers and many slots for them in most cases.
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I wouldn't use the same wording, but basically I agree that disabling inventions wouldn't achieve much good.
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3. A dual build that was switch automatically when entering a pvp zone/arena has been suggested many times, in a way that you could use a PvE build for PvE and a PVP build for arena/zones. However, devs seem not to think it's a important feature (thus showing us how much they care about PvP community).
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If everything that has been suggested but not yet implemented would show how much the devs care about topic x you could only come to the conclusion that the devs hate us all. However, the dual build still gets my vote, although I think it's not that easy to implement as you seem to think it is. 
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4. The guys that bark in the zones won't usually back that up in arena. Most experienced PvPers (but a couple of exceptions) are the ones verbally harrassed in the zones for killing those casuals that also harrass when they kill guys that are even more casual or in PvE builds.
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I don't really care if a misbehaving person is willing to back his behaviour up in the arena. Every person in a PvP zone is a potential target of trashtalk (just with different motivation and wording) and it really takes away some of the fun one could have in the zones. I tend to leave the zones if trashtalk gets too frequent.
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5. You can't avoid people who likes PvP to have good builds for that. After all if your build is not min/max, as you say, is because you prefer it that way. Ofc you may say that you don't want to ruin your fun PvE build, but that would take us again to the dual builds thingy that we all know devs are not considering.
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Yes, dual builds would address this issue just nicely.
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6. Well it's up to RPers how they consider PvP fights... I mean they could take it as they are bounty hunters after some dangerous (let's face it, even the worst PvPer is a bigger challenge than PvE) criminals/villain hunters -depending on what game you are playing-, or that it's a major war between both factions... I dunno, the fact that there isn't a story doesn't mean that people can not imagine one.
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I seriously disagree with the notion that even the worst PvP was a bigger challenge than PvE as some PvP opponents hardly offer minion-like resistance.
But other than that you have a point. There are lots of story-games you can play in the zones, especially when you have RPing people on both opposing sides. It needs just a little bit more planning... or a little bit more imagination.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
Some decent suggestions there(such as stories) but a lot of what smells like flamebait too... I think you could have written it a bit more tactfully if you wanted those suggestions taken seriously. Sheesh, not everyone in pvp is a foaming at the mouth lowlife with no sense of humor who gets off on repeatedly owning pve'ers.
Yes, pvpers often have pvp builds! Just as you have optimised yours for your pve experience! That is your choice. I also worked hard to get some of my accolades at a lower lvl rather than lvling to 50 and then getting them... Why should I be punished because you decided to wait?
2. I pvp often, I get reasonable share of kills and I don't have invention stuffed builds. I do have a few IO's on some characters but nothing extreme or out of range for pve players. Most of my builds are set up for pve since they are not 50's and because I like retaining a balance.
From what I see most builds can have some use in pvp.. It's not always what you have but how you use it. Try thinking about why you got done, rather than making a fuss that a nasty pvper killed you and that you want them nerfed.
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2. We like a level playing feild.
This is a huge reason we dont enter PvP. With the advent of inventions, and with various exploits to allow early acquisition of accolade powers, PvP is *not* a level playing feild. And thats what we like. PvE'ers as a rule dont care so much about min/maxing, or fully optimising their build. Although we can, we are more interested in having a good concept and good fun. We enter a PvP zone we tend to be fighting min/maxed PvP'ers who, skill being equal, will beat us by simple virtue of being stuffed full of "teh ub3r" inventions.
How to get us in? - disable Inventions / Accolades. Give us a level playing feild. Or at least give us this option in the Arena.
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No way. I didnt spent most of time grinding to get my IOs and the [censored] 75 mils miracle/numina to see a message of Disabling IOs, no no no no. Accolades are badge-earned powers, many people get them for HP+.
Well, I certainly didnt mean it as Flamebait. Ive got nothing against PvP'ers.
Really, Im trying to help them. I would be quite happy if the Dev's focussed all their resources on PvE and let PvP die a quiet, ignoble death.
But I have seen a LOT of posts and threads recently about how to make PVP more popular. I think most of them missed the point - you dont make PvP more popular by giving PvP'ers what they want for PvP. You make it more popular by giving PVE'ers want they want for PvP. THEY are your target, not PvP Players.
Do I think PvP players are rabid, insecure, aggressive or even sadistic animals frothing at the mouth patrolling the PvP zones for easy meat? Of course not. In fact, nobody does, but there is a perception that PvP players have a little spectre of that in them.
And to be honest, my solutions are half baked, damage limitation only, and weak. To be honest, I havent got any solutions.
The most obvious thing I can think of is to give AoE debuffs/attacks a bonus to accuracy and damage IF the target is a player. Meaning those powers (PvE staple) become at least semi-useful in PvP. But thats only one small step in making PvP zones attractive.
I was posting really to try and identify the problems. I'm not a PvP'er (well, very occasional only), and as I said, personally I wouldnt shed a tear if PvP dissapeared from the game entirely.
Feel free to ignore my veiws entirely, and I will concede I have no answers. But it may help isolate the problem of why PvP zones are empty by listening to PvE'ers.
Apolgies for any flamebait tendencies in my original post. Once again, this was not my intention - but I felt I needed to express *why* PvE'ers avoid PvP zones.
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Yes, pvpers often have pvp builds! Just as you have optimised yours for your pve experience! That is your choice. I also worked hard to get some of my accolades at a lower lvl rather than lvling to 50 and then getting them... Why should I be punished because you decided to wait?
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No intention of punishing you. But the flip side is why should I be punsihed because I decided to wait?
Im just pointing out the problem - PvE'ers tend to avoid PvP zones because they like a level playing feild. The more unlevel it is, the less keen they will be to PvP.
IO's and early accolades are the obvious unequivical unbalancers. But I would include FoTM builds, and the poor/strong functioning of AoE/ST effects in PvE/PvP inbalance aswell.
Like it or lump it, if you have imbalance in PvP, PvP will be significantly less popular with our PvE'ers.
Do I have a solution. Not really. Perhaps at least the option of Arena matches having a "Disable Invention set bonus" or "DIsable Accolade" functions. Feels a bit miserable though.
I can only say that the advent of Super rare inventions in Issue 11 will put us PvE'ers off PvP even more.
Again, us PvE'ers have little to loose by making PvP more unpopular. Speculatively, the more empty they are the more the dev's will concentrate on PvE, so perhaps emptying them still further will be good for us. It dosent matter much to us, but it may matter to you.
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2. We like a level playing feild.
This is a huge reason we dont enter PvP. With the advent of inventions, and with various exploits to allow early acquisition of accolade powers, PvP is *not* a level playing feild. And thats what we like. PvE'ers as a rule dont care so much about min/maxing, or fully optimising their build. Although we can, we are more interested in having a good concept and good fun. We enter a PvP zone we tend to be fighting min/maxed PvP'ers who, skill being equal, will beat us by simple virtue of being stuffed full of "teh ub3r" inventions.
How to get us in? - disable Inventions / Accolades. Give us a level playing feild. Or at least give us this option in the Arena.
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No way. I didnt spent most of time grinding to get my IOs and the [censored] 75 mils miracle/numina to see a message of Disabling IOs, no no no no. Accolades are badge-earned powers, many people get them for HP+.
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Totally understand, and thats fine, but I suspect the consequence will be us PvE'ers continue to avoid the zones.
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No intention of punishing you. But the flip side is why should I be punsihed because I decided to wait?
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Why? Because you had the option to get them as well but you chose to ignore it. There is a solution out there but I don't think stripping people of hard earned shinies is a way to go about it.
Well if you spend your time PvEing.. you should be loaded then.
Again, totally understand.
But this is kind of illustrating why PvE'ers dont go into PvP zones. We tend not to go all-out to get accolades as soon as possible. Fine, thats our choice. Dosent bother us an awful lot as long as we do a fairly good job in PvE and have a laugh.
As you say, you worked jolly hard for your early accolade - and congrats to you. I can totally understand how you want to keep this.
But, the fact that you have it and I dont (quite deservedly, because thats the choices we made) means that should we PvP you have the upper hand. And I, like most PvE players, dont get a kick out of an unfair fight. Maybe you dont either, but the fact that it WILL be a fight loaded in your favour keeps me away from PvP.
Solution? Havent really got one (other than the option of disabling these things by mutual concent in Arena). But, I am identifying a problem from a PvE perspective. Thats about all I can offer.
i agree in the entirety if everything yousuggested happened there (imo) would be alot more PvP
None of my PvP toons have accolades.. but they have IO's. Sorry for ruining PvP for all you guys.
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None of my PvP toons have accolades.. but they have IO's. Sorry for ruining PvP for all you guys.
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I rather suspect you arent sorry at all?
If you dont want to entice us to play PvP, that fine. As I said, as we dont want to anyway, we dont loose anything.
This thread was, however, directed at the multitude of people who
I dont have a single set bonus on the toons i play in pvp,just SO´s, and i still manage to stand my ground pretty well in the zones. I got owned pretty often in the beginning, a good way to pvp is to learn how every power affects you, your foe etc. What happens when i do that? Wich attack should i use first for best outcome, there are many ways to figure out to be able to come out on top. And there are and always will be builds that are more or less suited for pvp, wether u like it or not.
What i wanted to say really is, with just experience u can come a long way.
Experience does indeed get you a long way.
But you have start off by getting people interested in it in the first place.
Interesting post Cog nice issues to discuss imho.
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1. We don't want rewards.
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While its a valid point i ll have to disagree. This is human nature.Risk vs reward is what drives the majority of MMO population.
Currently as it is PvE risk vs Reward is translated into XP,Recipes,Salvage,Badges,TO's,DO's,SO's,IO's,HO's and an info panel with various ladders.
PvP reward is translated into SO's,PvP reputation that is limited to a certain number and a few badges despite the fact that there is equal effort required if not greater and the level of challenge is more elevated.
Rewards is a really good measure towards increasing popularity of anything imho within an MMO.Is a good place to start with.
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2. We like a level playing feild.
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Thats not true either imho.If you like a level playing field then all PvE population not only should have the same set playing with but IO's shouldnt be available anywhere in the game.Because my empath is surely far more overpowered in PvE than anyother Empath with SO's but i dont hear anyone moaning about IO's in PvE and how they ruin the even playfield.
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disable Inventions / Accolades. Give us a level playing feild. Or at least give us this option in the Arena.
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Give the option in arena : Yes Totally disable : No The time and effort invested to fully IO toons is tremendous and this effort is rewarded through better performance.In all aspects.If they disable in PvP inventions disable them in PvE too.
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3. PvP Builds
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I disagree vertically here since there have been far better suggestions to solve this.Dual build system,PvP build switch,Infinite respecs.
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Buff AoE powers against *players*
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Some Aoe powers against players are hugely effective against players --->inferno,mass terror,quicksand.glue arrow
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nerf aid self for instance.
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Why?I think is perfectly fine?!
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Decrease -fly powers, increase - jump powers.
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Again why?
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A possibly more attractive PvP "mode" for us useless PvE'ers would be team PvP in close quaters - i.e. A more "PvE" like environment.
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The only option like this atm is turning off travel powers in arena and base raids.The problem here lies with the far greater mobility and speed PvP takes place compared to PvE but i think this is the real winner of CoX PvP.Take this way and it will be WoW.
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Attitude. Or - I dont really care much for "i pwnz joo".
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I agree here with pretty much what you said.But!I think PvP zones are really friendly atm.At least from my experience on Union and Defiant.Casual players come in,we have laughs over broadcast,chat our builds,tactics,hey even life at times or gossip.Also PvP zones are far more chatty imho due to the fact that you dont aim for an end mission reward you are not all the time against mobs.Problem is CoX PvP differs a lot compared to other PvP games like WoW and L2 where its far more hardcore and competitive environment.The issue here lies that a lot of PvE population have really bad experiences from previous games and dont bother here at all.Yes trashtalk happens at times and things can get rough but in end of day it happens everywhere.Its not a constant I PWN YOU ALL race.
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5. FoTM Builds, or be 1337 or be cannon fodder
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This is a tough one.I think this is a grey area.I strongly believe that all the FoTM in the world dont make up for player skill in this game because we aint gear dependant.A skilled person will take down a Fotm without any issues.The problem lies here i think in the learning curve for PvP.People need understand that its a pretty steep curve.You need to know what happens on you around you and on other.You need to be aware what is hitting,what is the best reaction to the situation coming and how you will adjust to it and if you run or stand and fight.This cant happen from day one.There is catching up to be done.This is why i keep saying that it is essential to understand that at the beginning newcomers to PvP zones will die a lot.As they watch observe and learn this number will start changing.More survivability more awareness.Its up to them how steep this curve will be.The progress can be faster by asking on broadcast,and through tells more experienced people and the core of PvP community for help and i swear there is not a single person from the core PvPers on Defiant and Union that wont gladly offer help against any problem even giving tips against their own builds.
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6. Finally - its not Immersive / theres no story.
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Solution: Give us a story!. I cant see anything wrong with a co-op Zone fighting Rikti invaders and EACH OTHER!. Run more big epic fights!. RV is an example.
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RV is a really bad implementation.However!!!An instanced PvP even that occurs every lets say 1 hour,with some massive invasions from both sides and heroes vs villains battling it out would be nice provided there were some really good rewards.I have in mind something like AV in WoW tbh.
Main points imho
- Dual Builds would allow easier switch between PvE and PvP for casuals and wouldnt make them feel as underpowered as now when they venture in zones with PvE builds.
- Better rewards are essential i believe.I am 100% sure PvP zones will have a lot more people if more rewards and a good ladders system are introduced.
finally i had a situational as i was typing this post that i would like to see.A better use of the PD. I would like PD to be used as an "underground" place where characters battle it out and players have the option of placing bets (inf,recipes etc etc) on the winner and so on.It's highly unlikely tho cause it would be easily exploitable.Still seems very immersive to me.
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None of my PvP toons have accolades.. but they have IO's. Sorry for ruining PvP for all you guys.
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I rather suspect you arent sorry at all?
If you dont want to entice us to play PvP, that fine. As I said, as we dont want to anyway, we dont loose anything.
This thread was, however, directed at the multitude of people who
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So, practically you are blaming people that have accolades and IO's to represent their achievements, as people ruining PvP? Just do I understand your point clearly. 
EDIT: Why would I be sorry for using IO's? IO'd builds just don't appear, a lot of a time and effort goes into these.
Thanks TG.
I was probably a bit clumsy with my original post. But I hope it has some value.
Please bear with me!. Think of me as a PvE player who has some understanding of the core aspects of PvP and who dips his toe in without much enthusiasm. I reckon that precisely the kind of chap PvP needs to "market" itself to.
With regards to rewards:
Well there is nothing inherently bad about this. I was merely pointing out that focussing on rewards is kind of missing the point. We dont avoid PvP because there arent rewards. We avoid it for a loada other reasons.
DIshing out rewards, will, at worse, do not harm - but I think energy is better spent addressing other issues. Does that make sense?
One (potential} problem with rewards is this:- It creates a capatalistic economy. THe more powerful (successful) players get more rewards making them more powerful still, etc etc.
As I said, like it or lump it, probably the single biggest "turn off" for guys like me is the unequal playing feild. If you create a reward stystem of self-perpetuating "1137ness" I am afraid it will be another nail in the coffin of PvP.
If this was considered, I would urge the rewards to be ones that CAN, just as easily, be obtained in PvE so we dont get this cycle.
As to your point about "level playing feild". I still stand by my opinion.
My impression is this:- in PvE, if I am 80% as useful as the next team member (and heck that happens all the time in PvE) well - so what? Is this team doing ok/well? Are we having fun? then who cares!. Im doing well enough for me, and thats ok folks. I dont really care, and normally nobody else does either.
Sure tensions happen sometimes, like when a MA/Regen scrapper joins an 8 man farming team, or when Joe PvP with three travel powers and the medicine pool wants to join a "hangs in the balance" STF or LRSF, but as a rule, us PvE'ers dont really CARE if somebody is less powerful than the rest of the team.
HOwever, that all changes in PvP. Why the heck would I want to enter a PvP zone with my laisez fare non min/maxed, PvE build toon?. Im fighting at a huge disadvantage.
Now of course skill does compensate. But heres the rub - If you want people to enter in the first place, they will be unskilled. And its hard enough when you dont know about PvP - compund this with the unbearable knowledge that you are fighting uphill from a purely mathematical perspective and you can see how PvP isn't our cup of tea.
If there is one thing I would impress about PvE'ers its this: we want a level playing feild.
(Bear in mind Im only one bloke-albeit with lots of coversations with other PvE'ers- so Im sure others may disagree)
I suppose we may be unconsious hypocrites. We like winning. I guess thats human nature. Perhaps we are less driven to win that dedicated PvP'ers, but its there anyway.
I think you are spot on by strongly emphasizing that new PvP'ers have got to die a lot before they start winning.
But I guess the psychology of it is? Why bother? All those PvP guys are at a straight power advantage anyway? Even if I can face trying to within without skill AND at a handicap, im still left with a toon that is gimped compared to all those PvP players with hardcore IO's, FoTM, PvP specific builds.
So Ill stand by my view: THe more level the Playing feild, the more of us may try it out.
I appreciate that may be a hard pill to swallow for all those players that have grinded, sweated, and worked hard for those "ub3r 1337" enhancements, but there it is. Blame the Invention system.
Anyway, hope I have stimulated a few thoughts. I hope something happens to entice us guys into PvP. Not because I want to PvP at the moment. But for two interconnected reasons. Firstly, it will make you PvP'ers happy (a good thing in itself), and Secondly, it will make the game as a whole more healthy, and therefore have greater longevity.
There isn't probably a more reasonable example that Falcon Fire tbh, the guy even PvP'd with a fire/fire blaster. Not what I'd call 'FOTM' for PvP scenes.
While i'm not a serious PvP'er I understand where cognito is coming from, i myself have found myself visiting the zones less often since the advent of inventions builds for some of these reasons.
I'd disagree that PvE's dislike a level playing field, the difference between the 500m inf IO empath and an SO'd scrap IO user is negligable in PvE, the content was aimed at the SO level and thus while the IO'r is superior the SO's hold their ground.
In PvP the difference is considerably greater, the PvE combatant goes into the fight at a huge disadvantage before skill is even factored in, doubly so when you start including FotM builds.
The purple sets I fear will only increase this divide as the "hardcore" PvP community will no doubt grind and farm for so as to gain access to it which puts yet another strata of performance between them and the "casual" PvP'er.
Yes the PvP put in the time for his build, but that will not bring the casual player back for a repeat game after he is flattened without landing a hit against the math-hammered FotM that flattened him. Even if they do stay around a while, start learning their way around PvP they will still get hammered because of the difference in build and enhancements.
CoX could once claim PvP wasn't about the "phat loot" builds but inventions has changed all that and i personally find it rather appropriate that they chose purple for their "epic" inventions.
Complete disabling of IO's would be a step backward and isn't the solution, but maybe making one of the zones and making it an arena option, set bonus free could certainly help to provide a place for the more casual PvP'er
The pellet with the poisons in the Vessel with the Pessel, the Chalice from the Palace has the brew that is true...
Hmmm
well, I suppose there is still a chance that this thread could remain constructive
so Ill throw my oar in for the hell of it.
Firstly, Im not a PvPer and yes, my builds reflect that. As much as I applaud the idea of dual builds, I really dont see it happening. So in effect we have two parties, one with PvE builds and one with PvP builds. As has been stated, in a PvP zone, the PvE build will be a stain on the carpet within seconds. So in effect, as a PvE player, there are areas of the game which are off limits to me and thats a shame.
As it is, I cant see any suggestion of nerfing Inventions or Accolades being popular with either the devs or PvP players as has been demonstrated here. Although I completely agree with your (and my) desire for a level playing field, as long as peoples builds are customised for one type of environment, there wont be one and we remain with the two class system.
Therefore, I will take up the sixth point which is that there is no story reason for entering a PvP zone. It is possible to go from 1 50 without ever entering one and I certainly wouldnt want to change that. But there are missions that can be done in PvP zones and perhaps it might be nice to see those introduced in a more interactive way. For example, at the moment, the closest a PvE player gets to a PvP zone is to be referred to the contact outside. They click the contact and then theyre onto the next mission, job done. But how about the contact outside offering them a mission inside of the PvP zone, the same way that other contacts do?
Such a simple thing, but maybe it would open up a reason for that player to step inside of the zone rather than clicking on their previous contact? If people do not wish to take it up, they dont have to, in the same way that going through the Hollows is entirely optional. Maybe just the experience of having to run through a PvP zone could turn some new players onto the idea of PvP if theyve never tried it before. So there you go, make of that what you will.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Complete disabling of IO's would be a step backward and isn't the solution, but maybe making one of the zones and making it an arena option, set bonus free could certainly help to provide a place for the more casual PvP'er
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Well if you consider the rule that exist when exampling. If you slot all lvl 50 IO's, then if you enter, WB, SC or BB ( lol BB) then these sets won't take effect. So it's already implemented to some extent.
Please, you shouldnt be sorry for using IOs. I know I do!
Im not blaming anyone for "ruining =" PvP. Its certainly not "ruined" for you, and its certainly not "ruined" for me. Cant ruin something I dont like! 
I dont think I can make it any clearer: PvE'ers are, in my opinion, dissuaded from trying to PvP because it feels "Unfair". If PvP matches felt more "fair" then we would be more willing to engage.
Manythings contribute to the feeling of "unfairness". Amongst them are invention origins, but this is not the only thing.
Does that clarify things?. I dont consider myself as blaming anyone (because nobody is doing anything malign "on purpose), or indeed do I think PvP is "ruined". Just a comment/opinion on cause and effect.
If its flamebait, I apologise. Seriously so far from my intention you wouldnt beleive. Im trying to help PvP zones be more popular, and the people who benefit most from that (maybe im wrong) are you PvP guys.
Im seeing a lot of threads around these boards broadly on the same theme: PvP is rather unpopular, the zones are empty, give PvP rewards, we need more people getting into PvP, etc, etc.
Now I, alongside most of my global freinds, and indeed a lot of people I end up teaming with, are what you might call expereinced PvE'ers. We are not min/maxers, but we are pretty good at making and playing a PvE build. We may dabble in PvP - and are good enough that we wont always face plant, but we just dont "dig it".
So, from my perspective, and I think from many I speak to about PvP, I thought I would tell you my thoughts on why PvP isnt popupular.
I supsect these reasons are quite quite different from what a PvP'er thinks is needed for PvP. But, this is the point - if you want PvE'ers to come into PvP, its to them you must cater, not PvP'ers.
Bear in mind I may have some of these wrong, but I will write these points as "fact"... although they clearly aren't. It would be impossible to do justice to everybodys opinion, but it is the opinion of mine, and most people I play with.
1. We don't want rewards.
Big shock!. We dont avoid PvP because it dosent give xp / salvage / inf / whatever. We probably drop into Bloody Bay for Shivans, but only if we have to do the STF/LRSF.
THe fact is that big PvE'ers with PvE builds and big teams get oodles of xp / inf / drops in PvE zones. We don't need or want more. Ironically, we need these rewards less than PvP'ers, but ill come on to that.
How to get us in? - Not rewards.
2. We like a level playing feild.
This is a huge reason we dont enter PvP. With the advent of inventions, and with various exploits to allow early acquisition of accolade powers, PvP is *not* a level playing feild. And thats what we like. PvE'ers as a rule dont care so much about min/maxing, or fully optimising their build. Although we can, we are more interested in having a good concept and good fun. We enter a PvP zone we tend to be fighting min/maxed PvP'ers who, skill being equal, will beat us by simple virtue of being stuffed full of "teh ub3r" inventions.
How to get us in? - disable Inventions / Accolades. Give us a level playing feild. Or at least give us this option in the Arena.
3. PvP Builds
Like it or not, PvP builds are PvE builds are the antithesis of each other. There are lots of reasons for this, but perhaps the biggest is that PvE teams thrive on massive AoE damage/effects, which are rather rubbish in PvP.
I dont want to get into a huge debate about this, but PvE'ers build for PvE, and we can spot a PvP build a mile off. Its the kind of build we know is letting our PvE side down.
How to get us in: Probably the hardest one to reconcile. Rebalancing powers would certainly tempt us: Buff AoE powers against *players*, for instance - nerf aid self for instance. Decrease -fly powers, increase - jump powers. THere is a whole plethora of work to be done, but until it is, I cant see PvE builds entering PvP zones as anything other than cannon fodder. In otherwords, I cant see PvE builds entering at all.
A possibly more attractive PvP "mode" for us useless PvE'ers would be team PvP in close quaters - i.e. A more "PvE" like environment. Something like base raids for instance.
4. Attitude. Or - I dont really care much for "i pwnz joo".
Us PvE'ers are a casual lot. We like a bit of social chat, we like a slick but not perfect team, we drop in, drop out of things and have a laugh. We dont have a great burning desire to "pwnz" anyone, and dont in general get a kick out of humiliating or laughing at anyone.
In short, the ideal PvP for PvE players is with another PvE player. That when we can kick back and enjoy things. We dont even mind loosing in that freindly laisez fare attitude. The fact is, the psychological make up of PvE'ers and PvP'ers tends to be a little different.
Solution: Well, the more of us enter the zones/raids/arena, the more attractive it will become to us. But all the rampant aggression in the zones and the desperation to win is just a big no no for us.
Now this is something we should sort out ourselves. If more of us enter the zones the more of a pleasant time will be had. But, trashtalk, and the like, are a big turn of for us.
5. FoTM Builds, or be 1337 or be cannon fodder.
*yawn*. This is related to point 3 about builds and point 2 about level playing feilds. But many PvEe'rs beleive (I think usually fairly correctly) that PvP zones are filled with the "1337" min/maxed, FoTM builds. Ice/Energy blappers and tanks, Energy/Ninjistu Stalkers.. etc etc. I wont bore you with the details.
How to tempt us in:- Partially, by addressing points 2. and 3. Also, by recognizing that a Energy / Ninjistu stalker bragging about killing a PvE Sonic defender (for instance) is nothing at all to boast about. Guys, seek a challenge not an easy victory. Unfortunately, the perception is that PvP zones are stuffed full of predatory PvP'ers looking for us easy meat non min/maxed PvE players.
6. Finally - its not Immersive / theres no story.
Particularly for RP'ers, RP-lite'ers, and indeed many non RP PvE's we just get the feeling of "no story" to PvP. Its all about "I pwnz joo" not "I saved the world from the villanous [whatever]".
When do us PvE'ers venture into the zones? Well, look at the big epic events - you cant move for lag in the zones. We LOVE PvP then. It feels like an EVENT. The other time? our Bloody Bay runs. And I suspect not just because we "need" the occasional shivans... hopping around the zone collecting ore samples *feels* like a story.
Solution: Give us a story!. I cant see anything wrong with a co-op Zone fighting Rikti invaders and EACH OTHER!. Run more big epic fights!. RV is an example.
Anyway, feel free to add, disagree, or debate. But not flame.
And bear in mind this is a thread from a PVE PERSPECTIVE. And I reiterate. If you want us to enter PVP, its for US you have to cater for, not the dedicated PVP'ers allready out there.
I would like to see a bit more casual fun PvP for us, but Im telling you why I, and most people I play with, just dont "Dig it".