I noticed a difference between Fire and Dark on a brute for the time taken to agro, but this could just be perceived. Fire seems to be very slow in grabbing Agro for me
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
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I noticed a difference between Fire and Dark on a brute for the time taken to agro, but this could just be perceived. Fire seems to be very slow in grabbing Agro for me
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BA and death shroud both have the same cycle time, however DA also has two other PBAoE toggles; which although they aren't taunts would probably help you to get noticed faster.
I'm only looking at figures though to guess that, i haven't played a DA brute/scrapper at a lvl where it has all those toggles.
I dont have anything other than the damage aura, others hold up herding, could be the difference between level 37 SO and Level 50 IOs I'm noticing though, the Acc at least
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
[ QUOTE ]
i find the tick speed to be apparent when changing toons. for instance, if i swap from my ice tank to fire brute, the difference in aggro grabbiong is very noticeable. My ice tank can run full pelt thru a mob, with speedboost on, and aggro the whole lot every time.. my brute can stand next to them for what seems like an age waiting for a tick... and then thats no gurantee that it will hit all the mob
effectively, the damage auras are no different in effect to using a PBAoE attack every two seconds.
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Chilling embrace also has a larger radius than the other auras. That's why it is the bees knees when it comes to aggro grabbing, largest radius + fastest tick rate.
The large radius is same reason than Combustion is probably the best aggro grabbing power in the secondaries.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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i find the tick speed to be apparent when changing toons. for instance, if i swap from my ice tank to fire brute, the difference in aggro grabbiong is very noticeable. My ice tank can run full pelt thru a mob, with speedboost on, and aggro the whole lot every time.. my brute can stand next to them for what seems like an age waiting for a tick... and then thats no gurantee that it will hit all the mob
effectively, the damage auras are no different in effect to using a PBAoE attack every two seconds.
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Chilling embrace also has a larger radius than the other auras. That's why it is the bees knees when it comes to aggro grabbing, largest radius + fastest tick rate.
The large radius is same reason than Combustion is probably the best aggro grabbing power in the secondaries.
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yup, thats why i love my ice/fire/pyre! 
well... that and the fact that i really annoyed a fire/fire blaster i used to team with, by consistently getting more kills and damage than him 
My tank is now lvl21 and I am starting to realise the value of taunt. Bigger mobs, more dangerous guys, you are needed to hold them to you.
My problem is my tank was my first character so I picked all the cool looking stuff. Big hammer punches and the like I wanted my guy to be like Iron Man incredibly durable but flying about smacking stuff.
So since then I have been catching up on defence. Now at the 20+ I have a problem invincibility gives no damage aura so I want to take taunt to help out team mates but I feel I need unyeilding first. So many things that sleep, stun and daze me I need a defence before I can hold a mob.
Getting dazed and all your buffs dropping in the middle of a massacre is no fun at all, so I don't think I can take taunt until level 24.
What do you think, can I survive without unyeilding? Would I be better risking it and just hoping I don't get bashed?
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My tank is now lvl21 and I am starting to realise the value of taunt. Bigger mobs, more dangerous guys, you are needed to hold them to you.
...
So since then I have been catching up on defence. Now at the 20+ I have a problem invincibility gives no damage aura so I want to take taunt to help out team mates but I feel I need unyeilding first. So many things that sleep, stun and daze me I need a defence before I can hold a mob.
Getting dazed and all your buffs dropping in the middle of a massacre is no fun at all, so I don't think I can take taunt until level 24.
What do you think, can I survive without unyeilding? Would I be better risking it and just hoping I don't get bashed?
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IMO for an Invulnerability Tanker, I would say the order of importance is...
Unyielding ( so you aren't stunned, knocked back, held etc. )
Invincibility ( so you get hit less and taunt the enemies near you )
Dull Pain ( massive hitpoint buff and a sometimes needed heal )
Temp Invulnerability
Taunt
Tough Hide
Resist Energies
Resist Elements
Resist Physical Damage
The thing you may need to learn is how to use Invincibility to keep aggro... it taunts people around you but it is a very small radius. One trick is to run round in small circles, or even figures of 8 in the mob. Unfortunately you cannot see that they are actually taunted.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
Take Unyielding asap. Taunt can wait, especially if you already have Invincibility - it may not do damage, but it does Taunt.
There's nothing worse than a Tank who keeps getting mezzed all the time (Well there is, but this is pretty high on the list).
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So since then I have been catching up on defence. Now at the 20+ I have a problem invincibility gives no damage aura so I want to take taunt to help out team mates but I feel I need unyeilding first.
[/ QUOTE ]Invincibility is a taunt aura, even though it doesn't deal damage.
Three priorities for a tank are: Smash/Lethal Armour, Mez resistance, and taunt aura. Pretty much impossible to be a tank without them.
Next priorities would be the HP increase/HP heal, and the various energy/fire/cold protection. All highly useful.
After that takes your pick. Personally, I would say taunt is the next priority, but opinions differ on the matter (See tank/taunt thread).
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Three priorities for a tank are: Smash/Lethal Armour, Mez resistance, and taunt aura. Pretty much impossible to be a tank without them.
Next priorities would be the HP increase/HP heal, and the various energy/fire/cold protection. All highly useful.
After that takes your pick. Personally, I would say taunt is the next priority, but opinions differ on the matter (See tank/taunt thread).
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Sadly these days, at the lower levels, a self-heal is much more useful to you than your S/L protection for the most part - especially if you're a Defence-based set.
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Three priorities for a tank are: Smash/Lethal Armour, Mez resistance, and taunt aura. Pretty much impossible to be a tank without them.
Next priorities would be the HP increase/HP heal, and the various energy/fire/cold protection. All highly useful.
After that takes your pick. Personally, I would say taunt is the next priority, but opinions differ on the matter (See tank/taunt thread).
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Sadly these days, at the lower levels, a self-heal is much more useful to you than your S/L protection for the most part - especially if you're a Defence-based set.
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So, we've come to the conclusion that the reason there are many bad tanks out there is because they are forced into that playstyle by the low level limitations of tanking. Once they get to a level where they can adequately tank, they are too stuck in their ways to be able to get back into the tank mindset, and it takes them a while to adjust back. This means you have a good few levels (20-30) where tanks simply aren't doing their job, because the low level game has taught them not to.
therefore, i suppose the real question should be how can tanking at low level be made better... without changing the high level game? Low level tanks need to be made more survivable and able to do their job without faceplanting every few minutes. As a tank atm, there is NOTHING you can do to make yourself stronger at low level. The number of powers it would require wasting to get a travel power and tough by lvl 16 is too restrictive to make it an option. Especially when the majority of tanks are pretty screwed without stamina also. If you take tough, it tends to be in the 20s once you have your main armours already, and by that time you have SOs to make all your armours work better.
If the base res/def of all powers (not just tanks) was increased, it'd make the low levels much easier, but it would mean that with SOs the armours would be a fair bit stronger than they currently are. To compensate, a reduction in the % enhance that res and def TO/DO/SO/IOs do would be needed... Effectively changing their schedule. unfortunately, this involves a lot of messing around and complications with making sure ED isnt effected
a second option would be to modify gauntlet. If gauntlet also gave 15% res to all, but with the % diminishing as you increase in level, it would make the low levels easier. Were it to decrease by half a percent per level, at lvl 10 you'd have 10% better res to everything, at no end cost. at lvl 20 you'd have 5% better res to all, but by then you'd have more powers and DOs in your powers to compensate. By lvl 30 you wouldnt get a bonus from it, but you'd have SOs and all bar your tier 9 available. I think this would make tanking in the low levels easier, but without making lvl 50 tanks'overpowered' in the view of the devs.
another obvious option would be to modify tankers starting HP. Give them a HP boost, and they will last longer.. however i'm not sure how that would affect the higher level game without seriously mucking around with the HP scaling.
If tanks were better at low level more people would be inclined to stick with them, rather than giving up in favour of an 'easier' AT to play at low level.
Sure, we could theorize about changes to the game making tanks better in low levels, but I think it's quite improbable that those changes can be made without messing with other AT's balance which would create other issues and I really can't see gauntlet generating resistance without it seriously affecting the late game. I prefer working around the mentioned difficulties by using the tools at hand: defenders and controllers.
Tankers need more support during the early levels and I don't see why this would be a bad thing. This game is centered on teamplay and when should someone learn this if not in those early levels? And seriously, changes like adding resistance to gauntlet would rather make scrankers more common than they already are and I really want to see this. If someone wants to be a scranker then he just has to live with being more squishy than his 'real' tanker comrade and if someone wants to be a 'real' tanker he should learn who to tank for, i.e. choosing the correct team members.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
That's all well and good from the point of view of somebody who reads the forums and knows the game well, but for a new player it's just not practical.
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Problems come from being new. Some people get to mid twenties before seeing what Tankers are supposed to be doing.
Sometimes the level of support in PuGs are diabolical. Who hasnt seen a FF defender whose build went PFF, Force Bolt, Detention Shields and the rest are attacks? The guy mainly ends up solo so fair enough, getting a team can be hard and getting up the first few levels as a defender can be painfully tiresome and slow. He never gets a team then one day he gets invited to one and everyone things he his selfish, lame or whatever. I find empaths that went heal aura to resurrect quite sick myself because heal other is so much more. One empath said "I have res" like thats the words anyone wants to hear.
You take 8 experienced players and they all made lvl 1s I am 100% certain the game would be 10 times greater than your average PuG. I dont just class anyone with a 50 as experienced necessarily just people who know how to build and play a toon and then team together properly.
Lvl 6 Frostfire has been a herding playground for my Icetank. Atta has been owned, every single entire foe to no defeats, no one wanted the hospital trip, there was no defender and no controller but in both cases what we did have was teamwork and the sharing of insps, give certain insps to certain people and let them do their job its all fairly good to go.
In an ideal team with the builds you can currently have you could be completing lvl 10 missions on Invincible with barely a hitch but this isnt an ideal world cos ya just cant get the people with their powerchoices that would gel to that level of performance.
In short overall team experience counts for what any one player in a team can or cant do. My achievements arent even close to being the result of myself, they are of everyone around me. At 50 Ghost Widow can put my tanker down with Soulstorm cos i dont have 5 clearminds or the equivalent on me, not alot I can do about it. Luck of a great team is either behind you or it aint.
If anyone says "You cant Tank till SOs" that is a "Oh no you didnt!!" from me. You can, with great support and a good build. Just with many peoples lack of experiences dont expect to see alot of either, add that "You cant Tank till SOs" myth to "Toggles are end hungry".
I dont worry about low levels, you hardly get much debt to wards the first debt bar, people are new, I love people for trying (that doesnt include split up in a death room and cry for heals 
), I just dislike those with 50s who are installing the "cant be done" attitude cos they couldnt do it.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
*ahem*
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Bear in mind that everything I'm about to say is in reference to those who are playing a Tanker for the first time and are perhaps new to the game entirely, so please don't whinge about how you're amazing and can easily do things that I've claimed to be impossible.
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It wasnt an actual reply to you Spad sorry, its somit i thought I'd get off my chest on this, your post, with everything else stated.
My open line was "Problems come from being new." I agree with ya.
Ill also like to add, that if your a tanker who given an opportunity to say "ready" before people start still has everyones healthbars more traffic lighty than your own then something is definately SUBAR. (screwed up beyond all recognition)
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Tanker is an AT I kept myself far away from for a long time, but now I have a Ice/NRG one (lvl 17 now), and I completely disagree with anyone who says that the only way is scrapping for a lowbie tank.
I've done and am doing the following:
- gather a team. A big one. (although the manual says a tanker can solo, I say it is wrong)
- turn on my toggles. Yes, _all_ of them. (I've taken everything from my primary, except for permafrost, which is not a toggle ;-))
- run into a mob, herd them
- pray
- trust my buddies
(when things turn wrong, I tell peeps to run, and wait till they all have fled. Yes, I die if they haven't)
I rarely use my attacks, and if I do it is just to land the final punch for a baddie, or to stun them for a while.
I think, a tank's purpose is to get and to keep itself attacked, not to do damage.
But correct me if I am wrong.
I am curious as to what people think about the role of a tanker being so strictly defined, so I thought I'd post something to guage reactions.
I'm not sure when they made the game anyone would design the tanker to be that boring that all they do is stand about with the sole purpose of being beaten upon. You have to be allowed to do something other than stand there. Basically I think you should be given some leeway as a tank to fight a bit and have fun. If all everyone expects you to just stand there herding everything then something is wrong.
On a good team people help everyone, they attack the person a tanker is hitting for example not just random bad guys at the edge of the mob,who then might break off. Or they single people out and as a group take them down quickly, pulling people off your tank one by one. Healers heal, everyone does a job as a team. Sometimes I get the impression that tanks get the short end of the stick, everyone expects them to do one job, get hit and keep every mob hitting them but they don't seem to expect other classes to have such tightly defined roles.
The game is not all that hard, everyone can have a bit of leeway and have some fun, and still be successful. It actually annoys me that so many of your skill selections are dictated to you by other people and that if you pick stuff just for fun as a blaster can, then people complain.
The game is about fun too and if someone wants to make a character based off superman, and so make what might be called a scranker it is not going to stop me from grouping with them and still enjoying my game. In fact I might enjoy a game more where it is not run by the numbers and where ever toon is exactly the same in terms of choices.
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">Antwort auf:[/color]<hr />
That's all well and good from the point of view of somebody who reads the forums and knows the game well, but for a new player it's just not practical.
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Let's say it's not practical for a newbie who is all on his own. As soon as he's got some more experienced friends to help him out it is.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
My first attempt as a hero was as a Stone/Stone tank it was slow going, soloed most of the time, as my first team attempt was miserable. I remember some-one shouted TANKS first. Ouch - I must have had to run back from the hospital a dozen times in that mission - I deleted him not long after that.
Sometimes being a tank in teams is not fun, with out support at least. Beyond that I think every one should be responsible for there own safety - if you pull too much heat be prepared to take the pain
.
@Boy Wonder
Quantum Flash - Ill/Kin Controller
Leader of the Legion of Heroes
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Sometimes being a tank in teams is not fun, with out support at least. Beyond that I think every one should be responsible for there own safety - if you pull too much heat be prepared to take the pain
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I don't know, I always try and save people from their mistakes, as long as it's not apparently that they're just being reckless.
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The main problem, in my humble opinion, is that a tanker needs a very refined build to be efficient. While a scrapper or a defender with a poor build would still be useful and fun to play, my feeling (and is only a feeling, since my only tank is level 14) is that the Tankers need a very though-out, well constructed build to be able to do what they do better: take aggro and take hits without face planting... ESPECIALLY in the lowest levels. It's right that you do not have to necessarily herd the world to have fun with a Tanker, but personally I feel a downside to the team when I go head on with a group of foes and get killed in a second, while I'm the one who should be acting as a wall for my teammates, to help them do their stuff without having to run around avoiding enemies that can squish them fast.
Tanks can solo, if you are more into getting the attacks over the primaries you will solo okay at probably half to 3/4 speed of a scrapper. Team tanks tend to be a bit shielded up to take on greater mobs better. However you said "gather a team" which is better than "enter a team", this is because teams made arent necessarily balanced in your ATs favour as in, "dont expect assistance" and missions set arent necessarily well balanced for the average level of the team. Then ofc there are players that spread in a mission as though each one of them is capable of being "point".
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Damage aura has the same usability as a taunt aura, they even are the same just that the effect and rules are different.
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Not really, the key difference between a damage aura and taunt aura is that the taunt aura is Auto-Hit, which is beneficial both at lower levels when you don't have access to decent enhancements and also when fighting high conning foes.
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Damage Auras also cost far more endurance than the taunt auras ( ~ x2 ), so the fact that they need end and acc ( and damage ) is a bit of a slot sink at low levels.
Also more subtley taunt auras tick faster than damage auras ( 0.5 s for CE, 1.0s for Inv versus 2s for the dmaage auras ). This makes tanking easier as you can get aggro faster.
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i find the tick speed to be apparent when changing toons. for instance, if i swap from my ice tank to fire brute, the difference in aggro grabbiong is very noticeable. My ice tank can run full pelt thru a mob, with speedboost on, and aggro the whole lot every time.. my brute can stand next to them for what seems like an age waiting for a tick... and then thats no gurantee that it will hit all the mob
effectively, the damage auras are no different in effect to using a PBAoE attack every two seconds.
i do however admit that invincibility always seems like it isnt doing anything. Unlike CE or the damage auras, there is no noticeable effect on the bad guys. no damage ticks, no debuffs, no animations.. so this makes it seem like it is a lot weaker than it infact is.