This is actually the reason I keep abandoning my tanks and never get anywhere, every other AT can do its jub from the start of the game, but as a tanker you have to play a gimped scrapper till either 17 or 20 to earn the right to tank
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
From the way the 'must we herd' thread was going i'm not surprised this post was made and i whole heartly support it
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Totally agree that low level tanking is a chore. Got a new level 12/13 tank in the hollows at the moment. If I am teaming I am always happy to have another tank in the team, even happier if the other tank has taunt/taunt aura. What I try and do is have me and the other tank work as a mini team in grabbing and sharing the aggro. If we both have a taunt aura then we start off with only 1 tank using it. If that tank starts to get into trouble they switch off taunt aura and the other switches on theirs and uses taunt as well to grab aggro from the other tank. Just keep repeating this as the situation requires. It does mean putting a lot of trust in the other tank to watch your back. A little tactic that has helped me and others that I have teamed with so far 
Well, a friend of mine is very good at playing tankers and I really like teaming with him, especially since I love playing squishies (debuffing, mezzing and damage-dealing just make me smile 
)... which is accidentally a good thing, because this way I can do much to help him during those early levels.
I think there are two key factors for learning how to be a good tank: knowledge and trust. The earlier he gains knowledge about his own capabilities and those of his opponents and supporters and the earlier he builds confidence in his toon's defensive abilities the more willing he may be to keep the aggro of as many opponents as possible centered on himself thus justifying the endurance cost of defensive powers.
So, in my opinion tankers need a lot of support early on, both by supporting toons who can enable a tanker to tank earlier than he could on his own and by supportive players who are willing to share their knowledge (without being too educative).
A tanker needs some patience until his efforts really pay off, but the result is well worth it. Heck, when we started our first "real" toons back in I5 everybody told us that fire tankers were "squishy", but that mentioned friend built one nonetheless. It took some time, xp and support before that build finally gathered momentum, but since then he is very hard to take down even with little support (and you should have heard him laugh when he brought out his lvl50 fire tanker for the first time after the change to Healing Flames ).
However, always listen to what the player wants to do with his tanker. If he wants to be able to dish out some damage as well as take it it's no good talking him into the 'impregnable fortress' build you have in mind. He might miss out on Tough and Weave in order to take and slot those attacks, but if he is a happier tanker for it so be it. He might need a little bit more support to survive the fiercest alpha strikes, but chances are that he will survive nonetheless and tank with a smile on his face.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
Now, i know a lot of tanks pick up all the fundamentals quickly, and are fast learners... but there are a lot who don't. I have a mate who is now in his mid 40s with his tank, it's his first and highest toon... and if i'm really honest, i wouldn't like to be a squishy on a team with him because i have no faith in his aggro holding. He has an ok build... one of his sg mates respec'd it for him cause he'd totally gimped it... so he can definately take a decent amount of damage, but that doesnt mean he has a clue how to use his toon to best effect.
I did, briefly, help a friend who did a bit of a 'herd school' for a couple of his lower lvl mates. He used his fire/fire tank, i jumped on my empath and we each sk'd a tank. one was 24 and the other was 38, but neither had a clue how to herd. Basically what we did was jump into dreck, and he took a mob to demonstrate, then let them loose... at first they seemed a bit confused, but after a few mobs they were starting to get the idea and were trying to spot the best places to herd to. We were trying to teach them herding, but also about aggro handling and aggro caps in a relateivly safe environment. Most importantly though, we were trying to show them that tanking can be fun!
The herd school worked, but only because they had asked him to show them how to herd properly. If i tried to put my mate in a controlled environment and teach him different tactics and techniques, he'd take great offense and probably never speak to me again.
basically, there is no way to teach people unless they want to learn.. this is a game, after all
[ QUOTE ]
So, the question is, what can be done to try and overcome this problem? How can we help people to appreciate what a Tanker can be and what they can do if only they can overcome the difficulties of the first 15-20 levels? It'd be a shame to end up with a nation of scrankers, let's hope it doesn't happen.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds simple and hars, but the way i (and friends who i invite to this game) survive pre-SO.. solo and mini-teams (max 2, prefered with healer). Avoid Hollows at all cost, from lvl6 in atlas to KR newspapers and contacts, to steel for DO's and missions to move up to Faultline mainly solo (arachnos psi damage is not funny) or move out to IP. Specialy in teams with a damage dealer (blaster) and a supportive controler (emp, kin, rad, sonic in lesser) its a great way to get around with little attacks and still focus greatly on agro, shields and 'tanking'.
Done with fire, stone and inv, probably can do it again with Ice.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
[ QUOTE ]
The herd school worked, but only because they had asked him to show them how to herd properly. If i tried to put my mate in a controlled environment and teach him different tactics and techniques, he'd take great offense and probably never speak to me again.
basically, there is no way to teach people unless they want to learn.. this is a game, after all
[/ QUOTE ]
As you say, people are playing a game and object/don't have fun if you start telling them what to do.
I ran some tanking lessons for someone I used to play with a lot. I was doing it in Perez Park as a blaster, showing where to stand and how to cluster up a nice group of 10-15 green or blue Hellions/Skulls. Of course this was also so I could let rip my Fireballs/Fire Breath at the neatly arranged group afterwards.
Unless people specifically ask, the best way for people to learn to play tanks is for there to be a fairly large number of decent tanks out there playing. Somehow I doubt that this will be the case ever again, especially in PuGs.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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The herd school worked, but only because they had asked him to show them how to herd properly. If i tried to put my mate in a controlled environment and teach him different tactics and techniques, he'd take great offense and probably never speak to me again.
basically, there is no way to teach people unless they want to learn.. this is a game, after all
[/ QUOTE ]
As you say, people are playing a game and object/don't have fun if you start telling them what to do.
I ran some tanking lessons for someone I used to play with a lot. I was doing it in Perez Park as a blaster, showing where to stand and how to cluster up a nice group of 10-15 green or blue Hellions/Skulls. Of course this was also so I could let rip my Fireballs/Fire Breath at the neatly arranged group afterwards.
Unless people specifically ask, the best way for people to learn to play tanks is for there to be a fairly large number of decent tanks out there playing. Somehow I doubt that this will be the case ever again, especially in PuGs.
[/ QUOTE ]
the best tanks i play with in game are the few remaining people who i've been playing with since i first started. Now this is probably in some respect due to them having played for so long that they know the game inside out... however, i would also attribute it to the fact that we learned from some of the best. I get the feeling that most of the good tanks you meet today learned from tanks in i3/4.
Bit of a harsh statement to make that "Most of the good tanks learned from good tanks in i3 /i4" .. there's plenty of good tanks out there, just like there are plenty of bad ones. This is actually no different from the fact that there are plenty of good and bad players of any AT, but given the fact that a lot of people see a good tank as the corner stone of a good team, the good and bad ones become that much more obvious.
I play a fair bit, and I can honestly say that I've teamed with as many good and bad tanks as any other ATs, and I really can't remember any REALLY bad ones that stand out, nor can I honestly say that as an AT "There aren't many good tanks out there"
As far as the OP goes, I totally agree with the sentiments about the ability to tank effectively pre SOs, and this I think is a big argument against taking taunt before level 22 (although you'd probably respec so that you took it earlier once you'd got to the late 20s). There's little point in taking a power to generate more agro, if you haven't got the defensive capabilities to cope with it.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
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[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">Antwort auf:[/color]<hr />
solo and mini-teams (max 2, prefered with healer). Avoid Hollows at all cost, from lvl6 in atlas to KR newspapers and contacts...
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Well, we usually aim for a team size around 4, prefer to have someone who can heal (although the moniker "healer" might not be exactly fitting) and do Hollows at all cost, but other than that I have to agree that smaller teams (no PUGs) in a controlled environment are a good way to start tanking pre-SOs.
I guess the worst thing that can happen to a tanker in the teens is that he 'learns' in 8-man-PUGs set on Invincible against high-damage/high-mez mobs and never ever dares to tank again. 
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, the question is, what can be done to try and overcome this problem? How can we help people to appreciate what a Tanker can be and what they can do if only they can overcome the difficulties of the first 15-20 levels? It'd be a shame to end up with a nation of scrankers, let's hope it doesn't happen.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds simple and hars, but the way i (and friends who i invite to this game) survive pre-SO.. solo and mini-teams (max 2, prefered with healer). Avoid Hollows at all cost, from lvl6 in atlas to KR newspapers and contacts, to steel for DO's and missions to move up to Faultline mainly solo (arachnos psi damage is not funny) or move out to IP. Specialy in teams with a damage dealer (blaster) and a supportive controler (emp, kin, rad, sonic in lesser) its a great way to get around with little attacks and still focus greatly on agro, shields and 'tanking'.
Done with fire, stone and inv, probably can do it again with Ice.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thing is all the other ATs at low levels either want to solo or to have big teams. Soloing for a tank at low levels is on a par with Soloing with a defender, and big teams mean death.
The grind means its just no fun being a low level tank
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
Having taken my inv tank through L10-20 recently, low level tanking really didn't feel all that hard as long as you had a support char or two.
Its better to be the maker of the teams so that you can better make sure you can learn your limits progressively whilst being sure you get adequate support in more ways than one. At low levels you can tank for teams, you can take taunt at 10 and use it but you cant be expected to be the sole answer for everything in the process. I like to tank of the bat really, I took taunt at 4 on 3 of my tanks, its gauntlet that sucks in low levels and to me this is what needs fixing.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Taunt is part of the tanker secondaries. None of these have taunt at level 4, they're not available until level 10. Taunt AURAS however are part of the primary, and ARE usually available from level 4 (or level 1 if you're a Fire Tank).
[/pedant]
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
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[ QUOTE ]
Taunt is part of the tanker secondaries. None of these have taunt at level 4, they're not available until level 10. Taunt AURAS however are part of the primary, and ARE usually available from level 4 (or level 1 if you're a Fire Tank).
[/pedant]
[/ QUOTE ]
Shannon probably made them before I6/I7 when they swapped the tier 3 and tier 4 powers on all the tanker secondaries.
I took taunt at level 4 on Golden Golem. Combustion would have been far more appreciated at that level.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, we usually aim for a team size around 4, prefer to have someone who can heal (although the moniker "healer" might not be exactly fitting) and do Hollows at all cost, but other than that I have to agree that smaller teams (no PUGs) in a controlled environment are a good way to start tanking pre-SOs.
I guess the worst thing that can happen to a tanker in the teens is that he 'learns' in 8-man-PUGs set on Invincible against high-damage/high-mez mobs and never ever dares to tank again.
[/ QUOTE ]
That was and is my big grudge against the whole Hollows. As upto lvl10 is very fast doable, people who pick tankers and face this 'massacre' often stop and redo into something more powerfull such as blasters and trollers.
Of most times i PuG'ed on my lowbies, i checked veteran badges on the teams, whereby alot tankers have +9 veteran already and most other 'easy' AT's are the ones with less. And as the sets of tankers vary insane at low lvl (damage and shield wise) its imho impossible to setup a solid guide that suits every set possible.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its better to be the maker of the teams so that you can better make sure you can learn your limits progressively whilst being sure you get adequate support in more ways than one. At low levels you can tank for teams, you can take taunt at 10 and use it but you cant be expected to be the sole answer for everything in the process. I like to tank of the bat really, I took taunt at 4 on 3 of my tanks, its gauntlet that sucks in low levels and to me this is what needs fixing.
[/ QUOTE ]Taunt is part of the tanker secondaries. None of these have taunt at level 4, they're not available until level 10. Taunt AURAS however are part of the primary, and ARE usually available from level 4 (or level 1 if you're a Fire Tank).
[/pedant]
[/ QUOTE ]
pedant
noun
1. a person who makes an excessive or inappropriate display of learning.
2. a person who overemphasizes rules or minor details.
3. a person who adheres rigidly to book knowledge without regard to common sense.
4. Obsolete. a schoolmaster.
/my bum
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">Antwort auf:[/color]<hr />
/my bum
[/ QUOTE ]
<snip>
bum
noun Brit. informal a persons bottom.
<snip>
Eeeeerm, yes? 
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
[ QUOTE ]
/my bum
[/ QUOTE ]
Ohwell..
PICSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!111!111111!
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Taunt is part of the tanker secondaries. None of these have taunt at level 4, they're not available until level 10. Taunt AURAS however are part of the primary, and ARE usually available from level 4 (or level 1 if you're a Fire Tank).
[/pedant]
[/ QUOTE ]
Shannon probably made them before I6/I7 when they swapped the tier 3 and tier 4 powers on all the tanker secondaries.
I took taunt at level 4 on Golden Golem. Combustion would have been far more appreciated at that level.
[/ QUOTE ]
obviously i'd presume these toons were made when you still got taunt early..
on a side note, no taunt aura is unlocked at lvl 4. lvl 4 unlocks a secondary, not a primary.
taunt auras are at:
lvl2 - CE
lvl18 - invincibility
damage auras are unlocked at:
lvl1 - BA
lvl6 - mudpots
lvl12 - icicles
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Its better to be the maker of the teams so that you can better make sure you can learn your limits progressively whilst being sure you get adequate support in more ways than one. At low levels you can tank for teams, you can take taunt at 10 and use it but you cant be expected to be the sole answer for everything in the process. I like to tank of the bat really, I took taunt at 4 on 3 of my tanks, its gauntlet that sucks in low levels and to me this is what needs fixing.
[/ QUOTE ]Taunt is part of the tanker secondaries. None of these have taunt at level 4, they're not available until level 10. Taunt AURAS however are part of the primary, and ARE usually available from level 4 (or level 1 if you're a Fire Tank).
[/pedant]
[/ QUOTE ]
pedant
noun
1. a person who makes an excessive or inappropriate display of learning.
2. a person who overemphasizes rules or minor details.
3. a person who adheres rigidly to book knowledge without regard to common sense.
4. Obsolete. a schoolmaster.
/my bum
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, I know what pedantry is. You were obviously posting for the benefit of those who don't.
Mr M. .. My point was that currently it is not possible to take a taunt before level 10, unless you're talking about taunt auras. You're right that the primary powers are unlocked at levels 1, 2 and 6 and not at level 4 at all as I had indicated. My bad there!
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
[ QUOTE ]
taunt auras are at:
lvl2 - CE
lvl18 - invincibility
damage auras are unlocked at:
lvl1 - BA
lvl6 - mudpots
lvl12 - icicles
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats just being annoying with exact wording.
Damage aura has the same usability as a taunt aura, they even are the same just that the effect and rules are different.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
taunt auras are at:
lvl2 - CE
lvl18 - invincibility
damage auras are unlocked at:
lvl1 - BA
lvl6 - mudpots
lvl12 - icicles
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats just being annoying with exact wording.
Damage aura has the same usability as a taunt aura, they even are the same just that the effect and rules are different.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really, the key difference between a damage aura and taunt aura is that the taunt aura is Auto-Hit, which is beneficial both at lower levels when you don't have access to decent enhancements and also when fighting high conning foes.
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Damage aura has the same usability as a taunt aura, they even are the same just that the effect and rules are different.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really, the key difference between a damage aura and taunt aura is that the taunt aura is Auto-Hit, which is beneficial both at lower levels when you don't have access to decent enhancements and also when fighting high conning foes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Damage Auras also cost far more endurance than the taunt auras ( ~ x2 ), so the fact that they need end and acc ( and damage ) is a bit of a slot sink at low levels.
Also more subtley taunt auras tick faster than damage auras ( 0.5 s for CE, 1.0s for Inv versus 2s for the dmaage auras ). This makes tanking easier as you can get aggro faster.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
This post was spawned by the Must We Herd thread currently in progress, but I didn't wish to derail it any further.
There were a lot of interesting posts made in the thread, however, one struck me; Unthing's point that "Maybe people learn that they aren't that tough in the Hollows, so don't bother investing in defence/aggro stuff."
Bear in mind that everything I'm about to say is in reference to those who are playing a Tanker for the first time and are perhaps new to the game entirely, so please don't whinge about how you're amazing and can easily do things that I've claimed to be impossible.
It would seem that Tankers have something of an issue in the levels Pre-SO, at least for players new to the archetype. From the very beginning, blasters can blast, scrappers can scrap, defenders can defend and controllers can control; tankers, however, can only really scrap.
Tanking for a medium to large sized team simply isn't practical - or even possible in some cases - until your late teens. You lack the aggro management, usually the mez protection, and the damage mitigation capability to keep the aggro of 10 or so mobs and actually stay alive. Not to mention that you're unable to tank and attack at the same time without very rapidly running out of endurance.
What this often means is that by the time a new Tanker reaches Level 20, defensive toggles are seen as nothing more than a pointless waste of endurance. Now there have always been those who have looked upon toggles as such, even back in I3, but they at least had no excuse as their powers were noticeably effective from day one.
These same tankers never learn their true role because they aren't able to fill it during their early levels. The job of a tanker would appear to be to run in first, aggro everything and then die while the rest of the team attacks - not exactly the right message to be sending.
So, the question is, what can be done to try and overcome this problem? How can we help people to appreciate what a Tanker can be and what they can do if only they can overcome the difficulties of the first 15-20 levels? It'd be a shame to end up with a nation of scrankers, let's hope it doesn't happen.
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