3 res in granite and just having stone armour reaches cap for s/l but go 3 res 3 def any way.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Stone Skin is the only Armor that'll stack with Granite. It's the auto-power (not a toggle) and combined they'll Cap S/L at 90% easily, the rest are about 78/79% resistance.
Might be worth considering taking Tough And Weave instead though, both work in and out of Granite, you should have a few spare power slots and it's somewhat useful to have that extra defence when you need to tank Psi mobs. I imagine that only the toughest AV/GMs would require you to run Tough/Weave when in Granite.
tyvm 
[ QUOTE ]
Might be worth considering taking Tough And Weave instead though, both work in and out of Granite, you should have a few spare power slots and it's somewhat useful to have that extra defence when you need to tank Psi mobs. I imagine that only the toughest AV/GMs would require you to run Tough/Weave when in Granite.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not would require you, its could require you.
You dont need fightpools on any tanker. You may depending on what you get upto or who you team with be better off with them.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I wont like to see my firetanker without tough though :P
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
I dont have tough or fitness on mine. Still got some levelling to do to see how she turns out but i am past the point of the moment where its normally a must have. You should look at the defenders especially and anyone else in the team and do whats best required for them to stand the best chance in supporting you. Teamwork is everything to me, running through missions with people not knowing if their next attack or whatever is going to bring them defeat i dont like but how ever hard ya may try people can mistime things and muck things up. The word 'ready' is rarely known in these parts.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
True. Tanks don't "need" the fighting pool.
But a scrapper doesn't "need" attacks. And an empath doesn't "need" heals.
There's a difference between needing and not being able to routinely perform your team role adequately. As Sin says, I don't think a fire tanker could reliably tank for a large team without taking tough... they would certainly need considerably more support from other toons to do so.
Now certainly INV, Ice and Stone can tank in groups without the fighting pool, but they'll usually get more damage mitigation with the pool than without it (only exception: Stoner in Granite with Stone Skin doesn't get a benefit from Tough, only Weave). It's a tanker's traditional job in a team to be an aggro sponge and therefore more damage mitigation is a Good Thing (tm).
Even WITH the fighting pool, I wouldn't like to see anything but Granite (or maybe a well-built INV) tanking the likes of Lusca without **major** support. That's the whole point of GMs.
If you examine the Stone set, you'll find that when out of Granite armor it has got mediocre defenses. The point of taking the fighting pool on a Stoner would be to increase their defences when out of Granite, and be available for those rare occasions when you need more mitigation than Granite alone can offer.
[ QUOTE ]
True. Tanks don't "need" the fighting pool.
But a scrapper doesn't "need" attacks. And an empath doesn't "need" heals.
[/ QUOTE ]
Primaries are to an AT better than their secondaries overall and the secondaries are better than the power pools overall. If a scrapper doesnt attack he is not scrapping. There is no law against not taking some attacks and choosing other powers similar with empaths but its a good idea to have just enough of whats needed.
[ QUOTE ]
There's a difference between needing and not being able to routinely perform your team role adequately. As Sin says, I don't think a fire tanker could reliably tank for a large team without taking tough... they would certainly need considerably more support from other toons to do so.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tough is just smash and lethal, some missions are missing smash and lethal altogether. Firetanks are tanks without tough. You dont need tough, i have said balls to it atm with mine.
[ QUOTE ]
Now certainly INV, Ice and Stone can tank in groups without the fighting pool, but they'll usually get more damage mitigation with the pool than without it (only exception: Stoner in Granite with Stone Skin doesn't get a benefit from Tough, only Weave). It's a tanker's traditional job in a team to be an aggro sponge and therefore more damage mitigation is a Good Thing (tm).
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes damage mitigation is a good thing and it comes in many forms. Armours not being the only one.
[ QUOTE ]
Even WITH the fighting pool, I wouldn't like to see anything but Granite (or maybe a well-built INV) tanking the likes of Lusca without **major** support. That's the whole point of GMs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Firetanks are tougher than warshades and pbs, i tanked lusca with both tyvm. 1 empath is capable of keeping 1 regen scrapper alive.
[ QUOTE ]
If you examine the Stone set, you'll find that when out of Granite armor it has got mediocre defenses. The point of taking the fighting pool on a Stoner would be to increase their defences when out of Granite, and be available for those rare occasions when you need more mitigation than Granite alone can offer.
[/ QUOTE ]
I get mitigation from the team, teams support eachother, damage mitigation often cant be helped. If i have all foes around me terrorised by a mind controller my armours start to do sod all.
The level of survivability a team can create for eachother is often untapped in alot of teams.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
some missions are missing smash and lethal altogether.
[/ QUOTE ]
Name one.
The only one I can even think of is the Psychic Clockwork mission from level 45-50, and even there the mobs can come into melee range and brawl the living daylights out of you.
[ QUOTE ]
Firetanks are tougher than warshades and pbs, i tanked lusca with both tyvm.
[/ QUOTE ]
Cowpoo. Fire tanks are NOT tougher than Kheldian Dwarfs without taking tough.
Having played both I can attest to that: Both Dwarf forms get 59% mitigation to everything but Psi before you even factor in PB Essence Boost or WS Eclipse. Firetanks without tough sit on around 47% and have no toxic or psi resistance, they simply do not have that mitigation (though their aggro control is better when using Guantlet). Both have comparable self heals with Fire's now being up very slightly sooner than a PB Dwarf's due to the recent patch.
[ QUOTE ]
I get mitigation from the team, teams support eachother, damage mitigation often cant be helped.
[/ QUOTE ]
Damage mitigation can only "not be helped" if you gimp your build by not taking pains to increase your own survivability. If you constantly rely on team buffs to survive you are being detrimental to team performance and will struggle when those buffs are not available.
If you get your mitigation from the team and a sonic defender isn't available, how do you plan on absorbing those alpha strikes? You take your armor and run it, then use self-heals after taking a beating to get your green bar looking healthy again.
What happens if you try to take on a spawn that's too big for you to handle the alpha from as a Fire tanker?
Will there always be a controller to save your not-so-thick hide, or would you be better off running Tough for 25% more resistance and taking nearly half the damage you'd otherwise take?
This is what you have to weigh up. Are you responsible for your own aggro and survivability or do you want to always have to sponge off others, even when those others might not have much to give you?
[ QUOTE ]
This is what you have to weigh up. Are you responsible for your own aggro and survivability or do you want to always have to sponge off others, even when those others might not have much to give you?
[/ QUOTE ]
That's pretty much my view on things. I know what I can handle in terms of mob type/size/level and I don't look to the team to help me with that. Of course they usually will provide some sort of mitigation but that just means I can tank more/higher levels than I can on my own, which is a bonus. When I know I'm within my capabilities I'll often tell the empath not to worry about healing me unless in the red and to give Fort to someone who can use it more, like a blaster.
Back on topic, I've been thinking about respecing Weave in as it looks like you can just about cap psi defence when combining it with Minerals. My only problem is the only power I could drop is hover - everything else is used for tanking. Whilst not essential it is easier to not have to worry about falling out the sky when teleporting... 
There's a few great teleport binds floating about, I've not taken Hover on either of my TP-self characters and they're worked out OK.
Does Hover work when you're in Granite Armor or Rooted? Can't say I've tried it.
The bind I use is a slightly tweaked variant of the one here
Basically when you hold down a defined key it zooms the camera right out (think mine's at 100-150 feet), brings up the teleport destination cursor and reduces the game's draw distance. The upshot is that you can hold down a button, left-click somewhere and teleport with minimal lag.
Hover turns off Rooted or Granite but it is also fun to turn on Granite when above a group and canonball them. 
I'll give the binds a try. I can probably manage without hover but it's just nice to have sometimes whilst you try to find a nice landing spot to tp to.
[ QUOTE ]
it is also fun to turn on Granite when above a group and canonball them
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah yes.... My Dwarfie used to play a game similar to that.
Energy Flight above a group, toggle on Dwarf Form and FootStomp as soon as I hit the ground.
It's fantastic fun, and often had teammates in stiches laughing.... "Dwarfie Bomb!!" 
(Then afterwards dancing about like a headless chicken trying to keep aggro... Usually worked...)
Brawl is just smash and if you cant take brawl then your several levels too low as your blaster and its hardly worth a mention. Others have so little of it its not worth me double checking.
Firetanks get res to toxic from healing flames (its not as good), they have more health points and part of their toughness lies in their offensiveness (-fight duration, which is mitigation, if its down its down). They are conceptually meant to drop and rise again and make up more xp/time to balance the debt.
[ QUOTE ]
they simply do not have that mitigation (though their aggro control is better when using Guantlet
[/ QUOTE ]
i like this, good aggro control frees up team to do what they do in terms of support.
[ QUOTE ]
Damage mitigation can only not be helped if you gimp your build by not taking pains to increase your own survivability. If you constantly rely on team buffs to survive you are being detrimental to team performance and will struggle when those buffs are not available.
[/ QUOTE ]
I dont get the need for this as not all teams need a tanker, even 8 man ones with an AV sitting in the mission. The constant relying on team buffs doesnt always apply, have you tried basic builds? Many people level on them and there is not just one way of going about things.
[ QUOTE ]
If you get your mitigation from the team and a sonic defender isn't available, how do you plan on absorbing those alpha strikes? You take your armor and run it, then use self-heals after taking a beating to get your green bar looking healthy again.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like i always do, i have only ever teamed with a sonic once and dropped by an alpha once on a firetank. Alphas (hit by whole group at once) dont need to happen. You can dissipate what comes to you and all the secondary effects in peoples attacks provide some survivability. The more damage dealers the less of a fight duration. The more controllers the more containment. The more secondary effects the less effective mobs are. At the very least if no one else is getting hit because i am as a tanker they can pass me their insps or scrappers can pull certain elements that i have nothing powerchoice wise that could of guaranteed protection from. Teams are meant to support eachother and not be a bunch of individuals randomly clicking and hoping. If your not supporting eachother its not really a team. You cant be in a team without getting some support.
[ QUOTE ]
What happens if you try to take on a spawn that's too big for you to handle the alpha from as a Fire tanker?
Will there always be a controller to save your not-so-thick hide, or would you be better off running Tough for 25% more resistance and taking nearly half the damage you'd otherwise take?
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats happened once, once again alphas dont have to happen, the once could of been avoided had i pulled to a blocked target giving me less damage within a timespan to which i would of had a chance to use my heal. Once the team come into play all sorts of dissipating effects happen. As for AVs a firetanker i know with an 8 man team 1 defender managed a +3 babbage with no defeats. They were my tactics with a team that followed it through well especially and most importantly on timing. We had 3 of them in a row, the first wasnt perfect but the 2nd and 3rd was good enough.
The large bulk of the player base has this attitude if i cant do it, no one can! which is balls. What people dont say before making such remarks is how?. For me those kind of people dont deserve to know. Your one of them people.
[ QUOTE ]
I know what I can handle in terms of mob type/size/level and I don't look to the team to help me with that. Of course they usually will provide some sort of mitigation but that just means I can tank more/higher levels than I can on my own, which is a bonus.
[/ QUOTE ]
All my tanks when soloing still herd, i dont do lower than unyielding atm, but they can herd because whats in the spawns are different to what will be on an 8 man team. When i solo malta i rely on knockout blow for a hold which can miss, now you could say get another hold from another epic but that too can miss but it can buy me running time before i get sapped to end drains i have no resistances too. I need support against end drains, i could pop blues, i may not get lucky, i could go unstoppable these are choices i have on a basic build.
[ QUOTE ]
When I know I'm within my capabilities I'll often tell the empath not to worry about healing me unless in the red and to give Fort to someone who can use it more, like a blaster.
[/ QUOTE ]
With an empath in the team no one else needs to be getting hit but for anyone in the cone range (that if they wait should be pointing away from them at me) aoe range (which should be on me and not everyone has to be near me) or pbaoe range and no one can save people from themselves on that. Single target attacks should be with a patient team attacking me. There are so many teams that i have been on where only the tanker is getting hit. Thats good teaming. On lusca only the tanker actually needs to get hit, the rest dont have to be except for the minor DoT.
How is that done? Start with the end leg and kite it, be nearer to the next leg than the team and then the team moves in. What alot of tanks and teams do is tank runs up in melee range, team are next to him, when the leg hits him it hits the team, and if the team are behind him and far back the leg effectively is a cone attack and hits them. If you make it so those legs are directed away from the team they dont get hit just you do. Fort on a blaster then would improve their damage output. With a defender the team pretty much dont have to get hit, scrappers and blappers might, blappers can pull back and strike at range when needed with their defiance and scrappers well they cant be helped by me as a tanker when it comes to aoes and pbaoes unless i kite. Not always a need to kite but with single target healers its the best option. They cant quickly heal everyone up from a pbaoe or aoe and the only way for a tanker to stop that is to not allow it. The way hamidon is done is in some cases the best way.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
Brawl is just smash and if you cant take brawl then your several levels too low as your blaster and its hardly worth a mention. Others have so little of it its not worth me double checking.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is this sarcasm? I really can't tell..
Probably not Hammer, and that's sad for a PvE tanker who claims to know what's best for their team.
[ QUOTE ]
Firetanks get res to toxic from healing flames (its not as good), they have more health points and part of their toughness lies in their offensiveness (-fight duration, which is mitigation, if its down its down). They are conceptually meant to drop and rise again and make up more xp/time to balance the debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah. That's your problem right there.
I was worried that you'd gone off the deep end when in fact you believe that tanks are meant to die.
That would certainly explain most of what you've said in this thread and the neighbouring "Aid Self" one.
[ QUOTE ]
The large bulk of the player base has this attitude if i cant do it, no one can! which is balls. What people dont say before making such remarks is how?. For me those kind of people dont deserve to know. Your one of them people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless I'm missing something... "How? If I can't do it, no one can!" doesn't make sense.
Good Tanker = Survivability + Aggro Management.
You claim to know this, yet also claim that others should take care of the "survivability" part for you.
I fail to see any logic in that.
Max out your survivability, ramp up your aggro control and then take any buffs as icing on the cake. When a defender doesn't need to spend all their time buffing and healing your squishy behind, they can spend time increasing the damage output of the team instead.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
some missions are missing smash and lethal altogether.
[/ QUOTE ]
Name one.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm in a mission at the moment full of enemies that do nothing but energy damage, been a few of those recently.
Had others with only neg-energy damage.
[ QUOTE ]
The only one I can even think of is the Psychic Clockwork mission from level 45-50, and even there the mobs can come into melee range and brawl the living daylights out of you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Grr, nasty things.
Had the pleasure of tanking the Psychic Clock-King on my Inv/SS tank once. That was fun.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm in a mission at the moment full of enemies that do nothing but energy damage, been a few of those recently.
Had others with only neg-energy damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are those the Preatorian robots? I seem to remember that during the preatorian arc you get a few missions full of Neuron's robots and they tend to prefer to use their ranged energy blasts. They can still brawl when close up, they just do it very seldom.
Have had some time to think about it now, and "Spirits" are the only ones I can come up with that don't do either smashing or lethal damage... not sure if they can even brawl (never seen them do it). The CoT ghosts can Shadow Punch but the human spirits can't iirc.
Think it's safe to say that the vast, vast majority of the game features some Smashing/Lethal damage though... it's by far the most widely used damage type in PvE and is why there's so many INV tanks/brutes/scrappers kicking about.
And yeah, the Psi CW king is Fun! Have had the pleasure of tanking him on both my INV/SS and my PB dwarfie. Dwarfie actually had an easier time despite not having access to the Wedding Band temp power...
I think negative energy attacks are pure but aren't energy attacks largely smashing? Most attacks apart from dark and psi iirc have large parts smashing and/or lethal. Take spectral demons, their melee range smite does negative damage but alot of it is lethal afaik.
I'd be suprised to find any mission in the game that completely lacks any S/L damage.
I miss him in the weeping of the rain;
I want him at the shrinking of the tide;
The old snows melt from every mountain-side,
And last year's leaves are smoke in every lane;
But last year's bitter loving must remain
~Edna St. Vincent Millay
[ QUOTE ]
I think negative energy attacks are pure but aren't energy attacks largely smashing?
[/ QUOTE ]The attacks from the energy blast set are. However, things like rad blast and elec blast are pure energy damage.
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:[/color]<hr />
Things and stuff.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maelwys' posts makes me remember those I3/I4 tankers who said everything but Invul with capped resists and defense or Fire with overpowered Burn and capped resists was gimped.
There's always some people that'll believe anything but a granite tanker with aid self, weave, PS and a pocket emp can't tank, while some other people solo 6-8 man maps on their troller/scrap/brute/dom... *shrugs* To each their own.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Things and stuff.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maelwys' posts makes me remember those I3/I4 tankers who said everything but Invul with capped resists and defense or Fire with overpowered Burn and capped resists was gimped.
[/ QUOTE ]
These days every tank's gimped if they don't have a snazzy santa cossie with a beard as thick as a hedge! 
(oh dear... Winter event Flashbacks...)
[ QUOTE ]
Probably not Hammer, and that's sad for a PvE tanker who claims to know what's best for their team.
[/ QUOTE ]
If my team dont get hit isnt that good?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Firetanks get res to toxic from healing flames (its not as good), they have more health points and part of their toughness lies in their offensiveness (-fight duration, which is mitigation, if its down its down). They are conceptually meant to drop and rise again and make up more xp/time to balance the debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah. That's your problem right there.
I was worried that you'd gone off the deep end when in fact you believe that tanks are meant to die.
That would certainly explain most of what you've said in this thread and the neighbouring "Aid Self" one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tanks arent meant to be immortal and stop insinuating stuff and adding words that arent there!
Conceptually phoenixes are reborn after they die. Its great for reherding after defeat other tanks have to wait for a res, but ressing in front of an AV say is a dangerous thing to do as you can be insta dropped. i dont like debt badges on my other tanks but those debt badges have phoenixes on them. I will damn well get Exalted now. I'd still level as fast as my other tanks.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The large bulk of the player base has this attitude if i cant do it, no one can! which is balls. What people dont say before making such remarks is how?. For me those kind of people dont deserve to know. Your one of them people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless I'm missing something... "How? If I can't do it, no one can!" doesn't make sense.
[/ QUOTE ]
Putting such an emphasis on tough and weave as a necessity to keep the team safe, it aint.
[ QUOTE ]
Good Tanker = Survivability + Aggro Management.
You claim to know this, yet also claim that others should take care of the "survivability" part for you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tanks arent supposed to be immortal and not all people are in perma granite making them being defeated less likely.
The most sickening sight i have seen in my time in game is a granite tanker standing in respec mission with the rest of the team of to hosp. He basically saw to his survivability and did little in the way of taunt control. A firetanker would of been so much better, he may of needed support but atleast it would of been him and just him that needed it.
[ QUOTE ]
Max out your survivability, ramp up your aggro control and then take any buffs as icing on the cake. When a defender doesn't need to spend all their time buffing and healing your squishy behind, they can spend time increasing the damage output of the team instead.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats like saying to me "screw your concept build and accept a build of my making".
I dont need too, never had. What defenders offer is good enough. If i added all that then i could have all foes hitting me and a defender who made their defender to play as one being a blaster. When i log on as one of my defenders i want to play as one. When tanks tank they can get all the aggro if i am not a necessity i will go find another team who needs me more. Some people appreciate being needed and seen as being effective. Stone tanks who say "get a kin" so they can be sb'd are no different to me at all. Except i dont say "we need a ... " I'll have anyone who wants to join. If i had to be specific i'd leave the game.
In teams too many defenders are ignored in terms of what they can offer and how they can offer it. They made a toon slotted their primaries and if the team doesnt need to make use of them, the team will play how they like and they wont really get to play as that defender. Journey is important. I point blank refuse to not be challenged into doing that and when someone comes into the team as a defender they'd be needed as one otherwise they may as well of made a blaster.
If an empath didnt have to heal me or buff me he mightnt have to do that to anyone and besides it isnt like i need a healbot as it is. With other defenders i could max out def only for what? whats that? all the tohit is floored by the defender? if your regularly teamed with one of anytype then picking certain extra powers can be a waste.
I like teams whereby everyone is a keyplayer, i get more joy out of the supporting unlike the many that are playing for the "kills". My scrappers have confront and has much greater moments keeping damage of a team against an AV or pulling a foe of someone who is in the red than anything else. Incase of heals not managing to keep up with damage on the team its a good idea to pull back bring the attacks away from the team to buy time.
First day of ED i went and done a 52 Neuron mission with no defeats with a team that worked well together. It was a great team, 99% of the time only i got hit.
With the innuendos of this post and other posts i feel harrassed i think you better drop it and start on someone else. Well no leave everyone alone!
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
There's always some people that'll believe anything but a granite tanker with aid self, weave, PS and a pocket emp can't tank, while some other people solo 6-8 man maps on their troller/scrap/brute/dom... *shrugs* To each their own.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bleh, my Granite doesnt have Aid Self and Weave... now what???? I cant tank anymore!! DEVS! BUFFS!!!
fine, i stop the sarcasm now :P
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
coming up to respec my stone/mace tank soon and its been months since i've played him so can anyone enlighten me as to what slots should be placed ( and indeed what enhances) into granite armour? i cant quite remember how many slots cap defence and resistance or in fact if either of them cap at all!
any light shedding on this will be greatly appreciated by a rather dusty tank.....