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Thats like saying to me "screw your concept build and accept a build of my making".
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I'm not trying to force a build down your throat, frankly that would be rude and unneccesary.
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You were saying that if my tank is squishie i must be a bad tank. That is not the case. When people ask for suggestions on a build i give one. I may suggest tp self over superspeed for a stonetank but i do not say that they will be a bad tank. Fact is on teams the dynamics are either good or they are not. People are either supportive and cautious enough for eachother or they arent, sometimes you just cant save people from themselves. Many will stand in the wrong place at the wrong time when there is no reason to be there. The whole point of tanking is to get hit instead of others. I do that thanks, my first debt badge on my invuln was 41 and after 1100 hours she is maybe halfway towards the last one. I have tanked since live and only have to fear poor team dynamics and i only fear them ecause i hate other people getting debt. I get very very jealous of peoples healthbars moving and i like to consolidate aggro before anyone starts. My other tanks have yet to get a debt badge and at the current rate are doing better than what my invuln did but experience helps but anyway peoples power choices are their own i just look at the slots.
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You seem to value "concept" over "extreme performance". Fair enough.
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Extreme performance is no one elses healthbars moving. It
takes the whole team for that.
My build is all primaries and its enough for game content. As levels get higher they dont scale up that much. I like to play at whatever speed is necessary for me to try and ensure the safety of the team. Alot of people will attack a group no sooner as i have run into them let alone when i say ready. The type of player i am is one that when RV came out on test spent time playing with the AVs with various defenders or without (Filth was running around with his dominator every night at the time). Logging damage taken checking for range etc working out the best place for people to be standing so they dont get coned. How far back such and such may need to be so they dont get aoe'd. It put a range slot in my empaths build! I dont like to just run in and smack things. Sometimes the way to mitigate damage is just by not being in a certain area. On board games if ya ever played them (i havent) but ya get models and someone with a model may go to use a cone attack and they have to put a template down. Now some of the opponents models will be effected and some wont and some would be out of reach from the attack despite being in that direction. Some attacks are greater than others in area and damage. As a tanker this is what i take into consideration. When tanking AVs people dont have to get hit. There are so many options you can take and decisions you can make. I like being David to Goliath.
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I also did not quote multiple parts of your replies which is often percieved as a slightly offensive attempt to "rip the parent post to shreds".
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We dont know eachother. I quote just to show you and save you from looking the points i refer too. You could be gone 2 days and come back and may have to look at what i am trying to reply to whereas i just put it there so ya dont have to. In what ya said about aid self, it wasnt wrong but i didnt think i was being that ambiguous for you to misintepret that what i was saying, i was agreeing with you. Just the more foes around you the more chance of someone hitting in the interrupt time as its not synchronised swimming. of course def is important and as i said i'd have to have lots of def or an aoe secondary effect to but time. Without knowing the guys build i couldnt make a conclusive suggestion. The end bar is a second lifebar holding aid self down is something i havent ever done.
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Now if you genuinely feel harrassed by any of my posts then I'm sorry that you feel that way because it wasn't my intention. However I stand by every one of the facts I have given on defence and resistance stats.
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I can promise you that i can obtain these figures. I dont always fly back and forth to them. Sometimes i base things on memory and get a bit mixed up. It isnt hard to go thru post and double check what people say and come back with figures.
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It is firmly my view on tanking that you should not need to rely on outside buffs for the majority of your play. It is very risky and inherently makes your survivability unreliable, therefore I will not ever play a "team tanker" if I possess weak damage mitigation.
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I dont like to see defenders not in teams, i dont like to see any person with an AT ignored in what they can do. I play a team tanker and do fine. I just need to manage the direction of attacks, the amount of damage i have to bear against AVs can be mitigated through taunt. Ranged attacks are so much weaker than melee and if an AV is perma taunted then he cant attack anyone else which is good. If i am standing with the team and the AV aoes or cones he hits me and he hits the team. Through dynamics survivability can come, i dont see the point of a well built tank who can take it all with a defeated team. Different defenders work in different ways and most people go "we need a kin or get a rad" and whilst they are significantly better for dropping an AV, in terms of survivability versus the AV or in missions in general they dont have to be.
Here is where you possibly go for information.
http://www.nofuture.org.uk/cox/
http://www.nofuture.org.uk/coh/powers/categories.php
http://www.vidiotmaps.com/
Iakona and Arcanavilles posts are very helpful.
If you look here:
http://www.nofuture.org.uk/coh/power...s/Lord_Recluse
It gives his powers etc. When i looked there i thought thank heavens it didnt have how much damage he does with each attack as then my efforts would be a complete waste of time but it has info on stuff i couldnt possibly of found out for myself. I spend time on test playing with AVs getting hit to work them out find alternative methods to the norm. When people ask for a buff to this and that and get a reply back "we are not going to change that". I wonder why they wont change it and look for answers. It could be a complete waste of time but sometimes research is.
The research of people can be useful and harmful imo. Peoples builds get better which is good but some of the mysteriousness and challenge is lost. Part of the enjoyment can come from the learning curve. When the game becomes no longer challenging we get bored and leave. I like the official guide above all others and wont flatter myself by ever writing one.
If i am the only one getting hit then in terms of survivability the defenders are doing me a favour, i like to need them, i like to need everyone. I could go up in levels with some teams anyway but my taunt gets weaker in duration despite the 6 slots!
I am starting to like you again Maelwys.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I am starting to like you again Maelwys.
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Now I am getting worried.... 
I suppose at the end of the day this is just one of those "playstyle" arguments where noone will ever win the other person over to their way of thinking.
Some of my best team experiences have been in completely random-built PUGs where I've had to cover more of my fair share of work... I enjoy hectic battles and like to push my character's limits so that I know that I have the best chance of dealing with any potential situation.
When planning a character I'll sit down with data statistics and a tweaked character builder and work out how best to achieve that toon's primary function. On a tanker I'll look at damage mitigation and aggro control (my INV tanker took the fighting pool, took footstomp and slotted Taunt and Invincibility for taunt duration).... on a defender I'll try to maximise their damage mitigation or buffing skills (my Sonic defender had a heavily-slotted medicine pool)... on a scrapper I'll try to work out the best way of handling bosses and dealing high amounts of damage (indeed on my Katana/Regen I originally had a backup smashing/energy chain for use when I faced something with high lethal damage resistance)... etc.
This is a form of min-maxxing and often I end up possessing powers that I don't "need" in certain teams, but it reassures me that I'm contributing as much to a team as physically possible by being the "best tanker I can be" or "best damage dealer I can be" when I'm built like that. Example: if we have to fight Psi mobs, my INV tanker will certainly want a Fortitude or something similar... but I'll still be running CJ/Weave and using Hasten, Dull Pain and Footstomp as often as possible to add as much as I can to my damage mitigation (and when we get to the boss or AV I might even use my precious 'Wedding band' temp power!!) 
I watch other people's endurance/health bars and buff icons like a hawk so that I can tell when our situation changes: if someone has pulled aggro or is edging a little close to another mob, if a blaster has nuked or a defender is getting low on endurance, when a tanker's unstoppable is going to drop or our defensive bubbles are wearing off, etc. I want to know about it almost before they do so I can act accordingly.
That's pretty much my stance on any form of team gameplay. 
Also worth noting that I've found my Kheldian Human/Dwarf the most fun to play so far, probably due to them having so many situational powers available that I can fulfil several team roles with one toon. On many teams I found myself Scouting, Scrapping, Blasting, Mezzing and Tanking over the course of a mission in order to maximise our performance and survivability...
I find regular steady "exp grind" fairly boring. I love being in the thick of a battle when things are going just a little bit haywire for a team, it gives me a chance to try to turn the tide in our favour... 
Bah... this has turned into an essay, apologies if I've bored anyone by going off on yet another tangent!
Yep hecticness is great on villains for me, i dont expect people to be supportive of eachother or care about eachother that much cos they are evil and if anyone has a grudge against me and thinks "nah she isnt worth saving!" i am cool with that!.
On heroes i feel i have to try and be heroic. Heroes plan to do a job with minimal casualties their side. They look out for eachother because they care about eachother. Either way things are doable. People sometimes cooperate if a teamwipe happens but for me if someone goes down, its a wake up call to plan. In fact i'd much rather look at everyone in team and plan the first mob as though we already had a teamwipe and upon success play to that plan at speed (although i do like to chat) and avoid any casualties.
But with most players i dont see that. In pugs especially people will run in mash keys, play dead, get up run in, mash keys, play dead, and after a while someone leaves cos of the debt and someone else pipes up and says "i'll get my so and so which is about 3 levels higher" or someone says "it cant be done". Nobody looks at eachother and says "well how can we try and do this" and rise to the challenge as a team. Sometimes you even got someone saying "heal pls" to a sonic defender. I have been on so many pugs that have people not functioning with eachother well that it bores me now. Same old mistakes being made by different people that compromise eachother, different day, different team.
Some sg teams of so called good sgs dont vary much. Only thing that matters is prestige being earnt, inf and xp. The whole "doesnt matter who plants" is conceptually disagreeable with me and to run thru missions at high speed with a few casualties is challengeless but then again it also is once you have your perfect drill. The drill can change with different make ups. Thinking about it this game can be made from too easy to too hard for any toon with any build as it just comes down to team.
Likeminded people goto likeminded people and what everyone appreciates differs.
This is the longest debate i ever had, too long for me so i am gonna go for a long time from these boards cept to check on my stormie build.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Even WITH the fighting pool, I wouldn't like to see anything but Granite (or maybe a well-built INV) tanking the likes of "Lusca" without **major** support. That's the whole point of GMs.
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Maelwys I now have a Firetank that can, with no outside help, taunt Lusca till the cows come home. No temp powers and no insps needed either.
My Warshade got her butt handed back to her after i tried to get her sorted for it on test. If she could be sorted the PB could of been automatically sorted with a no brainer. Unfortunately the Warshade lacks the right type of heal and I couldn't do it.
The PB could almost achieve the same thing due to its heals but switching out of dwarf mode for dull pain was required which was compromisational.
Despite all that though Antagonise will never be a substitute for auto hit taunt. The Firetank was much more comfortably handling Lusca and with no tough involved.
Think of it as a puzzle if ya cant see how but you probably can by now due to one of my other posts.
I'll be happy to show Unthing on test cos hes been away and it'll be good for his Phoenix Firetank.
And if it can become fashionable the devs can nod off if they think of making changes but i am hoping its playing as intentioned and is especially good for fire/ imo.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I'll be happy to show Unthing on test cos hes been away and it'll be good for his Phoenix Firetank.
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I think I can guess how, but I'd like to see anyway.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
Wow, I'd forgotten about this thread...
Glad to hear you're enjoying your fire tanker Shannon!
How many tentacles could you take at a time? In terms of damage mitigation, I'm sure a Fire Tanker with Tough could take at least two of them. That Healing Flames change has increased their survivability considerably.
My Peacebringer Dwarf had trouble with two tentacles, but could tank one tentacle without any hassle.
I've an INV tanker who hit 50 shortly after Christmas and has the fighting pool; he can stand in the middle of all the tentacles and keep aggro without trouble, but the Toxic damage from Lusca's head can kill him.
Healing Flames has Toxic resists IIRC, as does Dwarf form so they'd have an easier time with Lusca's Head.
I think a Granite would be the only tank that could take all the punishment at once without support... but realistically if you have a big enough team to kill Lusca, you'll be getting some heals thrown at you.
Heh, I'm taking a break from melee ATs for a little while, my new pet project is a squishy Fire/Ice blaster...
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I'll be happy to show Unthing on test cos hes been away and it'll be good for his Phoenix Firetank.
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I think I can guess how, but I'd like to see anyway.
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Meh tried it flying but the minky -flied me.
As for taking tentacles, no need, its about selection of leg, positioning of tank, positioning of team and the perfection of taunt slotting. Healing flames was just about good enough before the changes but is just so much better now.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
ermmm i was reading this thred intently looking for an answer about the slotting of granite since my stone/ss is close to level 32 and am not sure if the rest of you agreed with the 3 res,3def slotting or what it got a bit muffled as usual we forget the actual question that was asked :S ahhh well lol so is there any final verdict and as for the fighting pool discussion i can not take tough as ive already used up all my pool powers what with teleport,fly for hover,speed for hasten,fitness powers.... so i hope i am not wrong in thinking i will be able to tank reasonably well with out tough and weave :S im keeping stone armour for times outside of granite not going to respec it out, is there no end reduc needed for granite???
The first couple of posts pretty much covered it. Three res will give you 78% to everything but Psi and with Stone Skin, you'll cap S/L damage at 90% resistance. If you want even more survivabilty than that, add some def although with the regen given by rooted, it could be seen as overkill. Depending on your playstyle, you may find End an issue in which case slot an Endred or two instead of Def.
Endurance problems should be far less likely in granite (with no end slots) with rooted on than at anyother time. 3res 3def is fine. If you have end probs in granite with rooted on then it should be worse out of granite. Attacks could do with 1 end slot and then the other toggles if thats the case.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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)
Thats like saying to me "screw your concept build and accept a build of my making".
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I'm not trying to force a build down your throat, frankly that would be rude and unneccesary.
You seem to value "concept" over "extreme performance". Fair enough.
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With the innuendos of this post and other posts i feel harrassed i think you better drop it and start on someone else. Well no leave everyone alone!
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You're trying to make me into an antagonist here and that is not my intention. If you glance down the thread you'll see that I only started addressing you directly after you "corrected" my post on tough and weave. I also did not quote multiple parts of your replies which is often percieved as a slightly offensive attempt to "rip the parent post to shreds".
Now if you genuinely feel harrassed by any of my posts then I'm sorry that you feel that way because it wasn't my intention. However I stand by every one of the facts I have given on defence and resistance stats.
It is firmly my view on tanking that you should not need to rely on outside buffs for the majority of your play. It is very risky and inherently makes your survivability unreliable, therefore I will not ever play a "team tanker" if I possess weak damage mitigation.
You've stated repeatedly about good aggro management, well that's one point I certainly agree with you on and have never challenged. It's pointless to have good mitigation if you can't hold the enemies attention. I'm simply of the view that it works both ways- you need good mitigation and good aggro control.
If you find you can always get the mitigation you need from your teammates then that's entirely your choice.
As a tanker I will personally not rely on my teammates unless I'm fighting mobs that my defenses could never handle (AVs/GMs, sometimes Psi mobs... etc.) because I believe that it is better to be consistently survivable than it is to have my survivability vary wildly when different buffs are available. I prefer to have my teammates look on me as "a solid Aggro magnet that they can depend upon not to die easily" rather than " a solid aggro magnet that is a potentially great damage-sponge depending on applied buffs".
That is my firm stance on tanking, and the basis for all my comments in this thread.
(Even the sarcastic one about "dying being part of a fire tank's damage mitigation"...