Mass Confusion

Hi there you Mind Controller.

I have been reading lots of posts about Mass Confusion (or better the level 32 Power from the Mind set) on the US boards. While they mostly claim this Power is one of the best level 32 powers in the game, some claim its one of the worst. Cause I can't reply to them (rant: I want to post on the US boards) I would like to hear how you see that.

I personaly do like that power. Its good. It brings in a (in my case as Mind/TA) 3rd AoE hard Control which is good, and an over all 6th AoE in general. Plus it synergizes beautifully with the single target confuse and fits the set. Overall the whole Mindset is different from the other Controller sets, but no worse (rather a good one I think).

However, as MC being a level 32 Power I think on its own it could really need some love. i do not think as a stand alone its on paar with Imps or many others 32 powers. Especially the recharge could be lots better (or even just a bit) without overpowering MC.
And one more thing: While everyone points that MC is a power that increases Exp/time, I think those MC-is-all-that-great screamers are little wrong there. Those calcualations are mostly done linear, but however, as the whole mass confused Spawn does not loose Health equaly and you dont beat enemies to exactly 0 Hitpoints this whole calculation is by far too much done in favour of MC.

Greeting

Trust me, it does increase XPOT. Also, you shouldn't be comparing it to the pet powers, since it's not the power that increases your damage considerably. That power is terrify. (Granted that after the introduction of the abomination-that-is-containment, mind is weaker on damage side due to not having much to set up containment.)

Oh didnt want to say it does not increase xp/h... but not to the extend stated on the Forums. Plus I didnt want to exclusively compare to Pets... I have Imps, they are ok and some of the best. However from the Point of view that many 9th Powers are a blast, i think MC could be improved?!

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However, as MC being a level 32 Power I think on its own it could really need some love. i do not think as a stand alone its on paar with Imps or many others 32 powers. Especially the recharge could be lots better (or even just a bit) without overpowering MC.

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I haven't got it yet on my Mind/TA controller. From the builder it looks like it has twice the duration of the mass holds.

I think the control hierachy is something like
immob<sleep<fear<confuse<disorient< hold as far as the devs are concerned. I personally pretend that Confusion is a hold as it does most of the nice things a hold does without the random spread out of a disorient.

However given that the Plant Dominator set has Seeds of Confusion which is VERY permable I really wonder. I think Mass Confusion should fit into the same niche, a bread and butter confusion power, in the same way as Fearsome Stare is a bread and butter Fear power for Dark Miasma ( I'm not convinced Terrify is useful for that as it has an alpha, I only got it recently though ).

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And one more thing: While everyone points that MC is a power that increases Exp/time, I think those MC-is-all-that-great screamers are little wrong there. Those calcualations are mostly done linear, but however, as the whole mass confused Spawn does not loose Health equaly and you dont beat enemies to exactly 0 Hitpoints this whole calculation is by far too much done in favour of MC.

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They don't go down linearly with MC, but neither do spawns without MC in most teams, they drop one by one.

I prefer to think of Confusion as a safety power, like a hold.

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They don't go down linearly with MC, but neither do spawns without MC in most teams, they drop one by one.

I prefer to think of Confusion as a safety power, like a hold.

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Yes I know the Maths... its not linear, nor is the damage all enemys get from confused ones. However thats not what i wanted to point out.

Another Emergency Power? Great... */me puts it to the lot of other Emergency powers I have, with a slightly annoying look* [img]/de/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

edit: No its nice to have, but maybe it fits all too well into the whole Mind thingie... something different, and making you go like WOHO this is a great power would be nicer no? [img]/de/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] (even if less powerfull)

I always valued my Mass Confusion on my mind/empath controller. It made for a great opening power as it didn't cause aggro, and it really helps with Mind's primary effect, damage mitigation. You see, the main point of a controller is to reduce the incoming damage and since Mind is all about hard controls that virtually eliminate damage from those affected, it's just the icing on the cake to have that damage applied to other enemies.

So yes, Mass Confusion *IS* worth it as a power, because it stops you and your team dying.

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However, as MC being a level 32 Power I think on its own it could really need some love. i do not think as a stand alone its on paar with Imps or many others 32 powers. Especially the recharge could be lots better (or even just a bit) without overpowering MC.

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Whether or not MC is as good as a pet, I think it's pointless to make comparisons with standalone powers. To get the Fire Imps, you'd have to give up Terrify, Mass Hypnosis, Confuse and Mesmerize for Bonfire, Hot Feet, Smoke and Ring of Fire... [img]/uk/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Mind is like a toybox, full of cool powers.

telekinses as well which i think is the best power in the mind set :9

Don't Plant Dominators get like Perma Mass Confusion at lv8? Maybe the devs could really look at the recharge of this power. Would it really be that overpowered with a base recharge of 60 secs? I might actually get it then.

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Don't Plant Dominators get like Perma Mass Confusion at lv8? Maybe the devs could really look at the recharge of this power. Would it really be that overpowered with a base recharge of 60 secs? I might actually get it then.

[/ QUOTE ]The thing is, mass confuse is longer range, higher target limit, longer duration(?) and doesn't cause aggro, unlike seeds.

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Don't Plant Dominators get like Perma Mass Confusion at lv8? Maybe the devs could really look at the recharge of this power. Would it really be that overpowered with a base recharge of 60 secs? I might actually get it then.

[/ QUOTE ]The thing is, mass confuse is longer range, higher target limit, longer duration(?) and doesn't cause aggro, unlike seeds.

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Take Seeds of Confusion from Plant and you have a gimped set.

Take any power from Mind and the set is still pretty good.

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Don't Plant Dominators get like Perma Mass Confusion at lv8? Maybe the devs could really look at the recharge of this power. Would it really be that overpowered with a base recharge of 60 secs? I might actually get it then.

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The thing is, mass confuse is longer range, higher target limit, longer duration(?) and doesn't cause aggro, unlike seeds.

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Yeah, but that's why it's a Tier 9 power instead of something like Tier 4 :P. I think the duration is about the same on both powers and the difference in target limit isn't really that much of an issue(you hit about 10 with a cone and 16 with an AoE?)unless mobs are really close together, or you specifically herd them together.

Personally I would enjoy something a bit more spammable as my Tier 9 power.

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mass confuse is longer range, higher target limit, longer duration(?) and doesn't cause aggro, unlike seeds.

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And that's the list of why its one of the best "Crowd Control" powers in the game. Forget Disorientate, Immobilize &amp; Holds, as much as they are the bread and butter of Controllers, only Fear &amp; Confusion are 99% reliable.

A good controller has only one thing to truly fear: aggro. Especially as MC has FOUR AOE controls, you've got to be wary of those missed status effects. Mass Confusion not only is a much more reliable NON-AGGRO control, but you can double up with that and, say, Terrify or Mass Dominate, so any missed attacks will not result in aggro.

Seriously, do not underestimate the power of the dark side of the force...I mean, Mass Confusion.

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Forget Disorientate, Immobilize &amp; Holds, as much as they are the bread and butter of Controllers, only Fear &amp; Confusion are 99% reliable.


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I'm not sure what you mean by this. So are Illusion and Mind the only reliable controller sets??? Post I5, controlling has A LOT to do with containment (which isn't triggered by fear or confusion). With proper slotting, your holds, disorients and immobs should be equally reliable (although I agree Mass Confusion is an awesome power).

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mass confuse is longer range, higher target limit, longer duration(?) and doesn't cause aggro, unlike seeds.

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And that's the list of why its one of the best "Crowd Control" powers in the game. Forget Disorientate, Immobilize &amp; Holds, as much as they are the bread and butter of Controllers, only Fear &amp; Confusion are 99% reliable.


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Eh? Fear isn't 100% reliable at all. Mobs can attack you back if you attack them and can scurry off if hurt badly enough. And Confuse lets them run off and start attacking a second group if they like.

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Forget Disorientate, Immobilize &amp; Holds, as much as they are the bread and butter of Controllers, only Fear &amp; Confusion are 99% reliable.

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Let me explain:

"Disorientate, Immobilize &amp; Holds, ... are the bread and butter of Controllers" - all those powers are common place to controlling your enemy and are key to that. However, there are many mobs that are immune to the various effects of those elements. I am not saying they are rubbish and should be ignored; my point is that you cannot count on a mob being susceptable.

"Fear &amp; Confusion are 99% reliable" - most mobs can affected by these status effects. Note I did not say ALL and that there is an element that are just plain immune to those effects. However, the bulk are not and the reason is because Fear/Confuse are not TRUE holds.

Fear has the disadvantage to allowing an enemy a reciprocal attack and Confuse means the mob is running around, attacking people.

When controlling, the point is to stop mobs from attacking your allies. Since Fear only generates an attack when you attack them first, it fulfills this criteria (AOEs notwithstanding). Confuse is the same.

This basically boils down to the difference between a hold (which has a general greater per centage of being defended against) and a controlling status effect (which, while not quite as good, fulfills the same role and has a better chance of being effective)}.

Do you see what I'm driving at? Fear/Confuse is more reliable as far as AFFECTING a mob and is therefore more reliable at controlling. While it isn't as effective as a containment, it still controls.

So I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just using a different measurement (i.e. controlling versus containing).

You want to say there are more mobs resistant to Holds and Immob than to Fear/Confuse?

Er ever played against Nemesis... They are ALL resistent to Fear/Confuse... dont know any other Mob group thats totaly resistent to Holds actually. Simply not true what you are saying.

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Forget Disorientate, Immobilize &amp; Holds, as much as they are the bread and butter of Controllers, only Fear &amp; Confusion are 99% reliable.

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Let me explain:

"Disorientate, Immobilize &amp; Holds, ... are the bread and butter of Controllers" - all those powers are common place to controlling your enemy and are key to that. However, there are many mobs that are immune to the various effects of those elements. I am not saying they are rubbish and should be ignored; my point is that you cannot count on a mob being susceptable.

"Fear &amp; Confusion are 99% reliable" - most mobs can affected by these status effects. Note I did not say ALL and that there is an element that are just plain immune to those effects. However, the bulk are not and the reason is because Fear/Confuse are not TRUE holds.

Fear has the disadvantage to allowing an enemy a reciprocal attack and Confuse means the mob is running around, attacking people.

When controlling, the point is to stop mobs from attacking your allies. Since Fear only generates an attack when you attack them first, it fulfills this criteria (AOEs notwithstanding). Confuse is the same.

This basically boils down to the difference between a hold (which has a general greater per centage of being defended against) and a controlling status effect (which, while not quite as good, fulfills the same role and has a better chance of being effective)}.

Do you see what I'm driving at? Fear/Confuse is more reliable as far as AFFECTING a mob and is therefore more reliable at controlling. While it isn't as effective as a containment, it still controls.

So I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just using a different measurement (i.e. controlling versus containing).

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Ok. Most robots are immune to Fear. nemises are resistant to both Fear &amp; Confuse.

I don't know of anyone immune to holds. Bosses need them two-stacked and AVs are very resistant to them but they're just as resistant to fear &amp; confuses. In fact Immobs are better against most bosses and AVs since they tend to be Mag 4 and the AV Purple Triangles don't protect against it.

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When controlling, the point is to stop mobs from attacking your allies.

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I don't agree with this either I'm afraid. Thats one aspect of Control. However offensive control, immobing them in a massive debuff patch so they can't hit / take more damage is a just as valid one, especially later in the game.

Using Control powers as the set-up for a massive Containment one-two with an AOE is equally useful, especially with epics.

Defensive control is very useful too but, especially in the end game when Tanks and Defenders are just as capable of neutering a group as you are, offensive control becomes very handy. And Fear isn't any good for that. Confuse adds a little firepower to your side but not a lot really.

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"Disorientate, Immobilize &amp; Holds, ... are the bread and butter of Controllers" - all those powers are common place to controlling your enemy and are key to that. However, there are many mobs that are immune to the various effects of those elements.

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I have no idea what you are referring to. As pointed above, many more foes are resistant to fear/confuse than to holds/disorients.

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When controlling, the point is to stop mobs from attacking your allies. Since Fear only generates an attack when you attack them first, it fulfills this criteria (AOEs notwithstanding).

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Unless you are soloing, the mobs will probably be attacked (and hopefully arrested) very quickly. Which is why "soft" control helps, but is nowhere nearly as effective as "hard" control.

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This basically boils down to the difference between a hold (which has a general greater per centage of being defended against) and a controlling status effect (which, while not quite as good, fulfills the same role and has a better chance of being effective)}.

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Again, with proper slotting, your holds/disorients/immobs will not be missing, so I can't see how they are inferior (even in PvP).

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Do you see what I'm driving at? Fear/Confuse is more reliable as far as AFFECTING a mob and is therefore more reliable at controlling. While it isn't as effective as a containment, it still controls.

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Same comment.

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So I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just using a different measurement (i.e. controlling versus containing).

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It is not about controlling vs. containment, since containment is an inherent (pardon the pun) part of controlling .

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I have no idea what you are referring to. As pointed above, many more foes are resistant to fear/confuse than to holds/disorients.

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Not in my experience. I've found many more mobs susceptible to Confuse/Fear.

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Unless you are soloing, the mobs will probably be attacked (and hopefully arrested) very quickly. Which is why "soft" control helps, but is nowhere nearly as effective as "hard" control.

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That's a fair enough statement. I've never solo'd with my Controller so I couldn't possibly comment.

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Again, with proper slotting, your holds/disorients/immobs will not be missing, so I can't see how they are inferior (even in PvP).

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I never said they were inferior. In actual fact, I did say that the 'soft' effects have greater disadvantages, I've just found that they are less likely to be resisted. Hence their viability.

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It is not about controlling vs. containment, since containment is an inherent (pardon the pun) part of controlling .

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We're just arguing semantics :P "Containment", in this instance, I use to differentiate between a status effect that will trigger the Controller innate ability and "Control" versus a power which offers a status effect that will manipulate the enemy.

I can only argue from my experience, like anything, you may have a completely opposite reality.

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I have no idea what you are referring to. As pointed above, many more foes are resistant to fear/confuse than to holds/disorients.

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Not in my experience. I've found many more mobs susceptible to Confuse/Fear.


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Can you please state which mobs you've found resistant to holds?

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Can you please state which mobs you've found resistant to holds?

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Definitely Nemesis for sure (strangely, Fakes are very vulnerable). Banished Pantheon zombies. Some carnies.

Spectral Knights. I'll go play with some mobs and report back, just so I can support what I'm saying I'm sorry I can't be more specific at this moment.

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Can you please state which mobs you've found resistant to holds?

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Definitely Nemesis for sure (strangely, Fakes are very vulnerable). Banished Pantheon zombies. Some carnies.

Spectral Knights. I'll go play with some mobs and report back, just so I can support what I'm saying I'm sorry I can't be more specific at this moment.

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I don't think any of these were resistent to Holds, though Carnies were hard to hit but nothing else. When you hit em they stand still. Though I currently cant state for the Zombies.

Nemesis have Vengeance which helps against holds, but also against confuse. Never noticed anything special with Carnies or BP since they don't have any bubbles or buffs which might provide some resistance against holds afaik.

Well I've got a big bowl ready to eat my words I'll come back to you after a test study.