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NoT what i said , but if you want to know what i would have said is kinetic trollers make stone like a god , if you dont have kinetic trollers , the team has to pay for you being a lump and adapt .
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Here's what you actually said. "But without the proper support a kinetic , the stone armour is like a drag to play." I paraphrased, but seems fairly accurate.
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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BTW, do you have or ever have had a Granite Brute or Tank so we know where your experiance is coming from on this subject.
[/ QUOTE ]I have L40 tank and L27 brute, although neither are stone armor. I have however teamed with loads of stone tanks (Including some of the first ones to hit L50 in the EU), and some stone brutes. I did also try a L40 elec/stone brute for a while during the RV test event.
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So not much actual experiance of playing them then, an instant lvl 40 would not give you the feel of them growing over time, so you really have no experiance par se to base your judgements on, whilst many of us who are replying to this play them, mines up to lvl 45 now on the brute, only 13 on the tank, and I also have a lvl 29 EM/EA brute and have player others, but the highest is only lvl 16 on them, so not to much experiance on them, so I know the way they play to another brute or tank, as I have other tanks as well, still not to high, but one with each armour nontheless.
Full knowledge is gained from experiance of playing something properly, I would never tell someone that a dominator set or corruptor set was gimped without first trying it out properly for example, by the same token I woul;d probably not even use the word gimped, rather, it didn't really work for me, but I know it worked for the one I saw in action in my last team.
You on the otherhand, and I hope there's nothing against the rules for stating this, seem to have set ideas about what is gimped and whats not.
[/ QUOTE ]I used the word gimp maybe a bit too harshly, It was meant as a semi-joke. I agree that stone armor is a decent set, and that granite can be good, but I also say that there are very few situations in which a granite will do the primary job of the brute AT better than some other secondary, and many in which it will do worse.
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Just a question then, are you now saying the Stone Armour set is just as good as the rest of the armours and admitting that they are all as good as each other to play, if you are I think you are finally getting the point of ALL the powersets being good to play, and all having a role in the game, which is what I believe a lot of people have been getting at, it's just that the Granite power seems to have been the cruicible for this.
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ITS BLUE !!!!
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I'm so glad you're here :P
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Mobs reaction time is instant when you are entering the aggro range , not the alert range .
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And yet there's a delay. Even when I teleport in I don't get attacked instantly. They have to turn to me, draw weapons and THEN attack. It doesn't happen instantly and that's what I meant by reaction time. It creates a window, where I prior to tp I could run and throw on rooted at the last moment with no risk.
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Maybe you haven´t tanked enough at low levels 
Guess that must have been the reason to not having a rock plummet you out of the way .
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What does "enough" mean in this context? Surely by tanking my way through the low lvls to the high lvls i've done, by definition "enough"?!?
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Really :P say that again when you tested it out with some other tanker doing more damage then you !!!!
AH never played with a other tanker in your radius ???
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True, but pure hair splitting and not relevent to the discussion which was squishies pulling aggro from tanks because of low damage. If another tanks pulls agro of you it means you're both standing close to each, so all should be well.
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Hurray somebody who again is ignorant immobilised can´t be knocked back
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Sorry, but yes they can. I'd check you facts before you start accusing other people of ignorance. And anyway, what has this got to do with anything?
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unlike you i dont go making post up like the one before and twisting things out of contest .
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-spd isn´t a handicap , then why did you take 3 slotted swift
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So by that logic all attacks are handicapped because they need slotted with 3 dmgs?
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, and teleport ?
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I never suggested -spd wasn't something that DIDN'T need to be adapted to (so much for not twisting words, pfft).
In fact, the core of my argument is, and always has been as follows;
The -spd of rooted and/or granite armour is easier to compensate for than the -recharge.
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but infact you try to find way arounds it thats totally not creative at all.
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Nah, if they weren't creative, you'd have thought of them
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So infact you contradict your own statement , so more nasty words for it ??
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You appear to heading into delusional territory. Having scanned back over my posts I'm not seeing any obvious contradictions on my part. Your posts on the other hand...
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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Just a question then, are you now saying the Stone Armour set is just as good as the rest of the armours and admitting that they are all as good as each other to play, if you are I think you are finally getting the point of ALL the powersets being good to play, and all having a role in the game, which is what I believe a lot of people have been getting at, it's just that the Granite power seems to have been the cruicible for this.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm not saying they're all as good, to be that, they'd have to be identical. I'm saying that while stone armor has it's sides, it is not as good in accomplishing the primary role of the brute than other secondaries in most situations.
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The good side is that it can absorb amounts of damage that would floor brutes with other secondaries. However, situations where damage like that occurs are extremely rare if you play smart.
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Like the Recluse SF for instance? 
Stone brutes are one of the single most useful builds on that as they're one of the few things that can aggro the AV's long enough for the Corruptors to debuff.
Let's look at the other side of the coin, if brutes are all about offence, surely EM/EA brutes would be the preferred choice for most teams?
Pfft, give me a stone any day. I don't care that they have movement and recharge issues, until MM's get some sort of in built taunt for their pets, brutes are the best thing at holding aggro in CoV and stone brutes are the best thing at actually withstanding that aggro.
They're not gimped and they're not underpowered. They have some very nasty penalties in built to make up for the advantages they have elsewhere. Brutes that decide to go stane and try to emulate a more traditional tanker way are no more 'breaking their AT role' than blasters who melee!
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I'm not saying they're all as good, to be that, they'd have to be identical. I'm saying that while stone armor has it's sides, it is not as good in accomplishing the primary role of the brute than other secondaries in most situations.
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This is a reasonable statement, but there seems to be some discord as to the primary nature of a brute. Would you care to give us your outline of a brute's function. I may help clarify your position.
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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Just a question then, are you now saying the Stone Armour set is just as good as the rest of the armours and admitting that they are all as good as each other to play, if you are I think you are finally getting the point of ALL the powersets being good to play, and all having a role in the game, which is what I believe a lot of people have been getting at, it's just that the Granite power seems to have been the cruicible for this.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm not saying they're all as good, to be that, they'd have to be identical. I'm saying that while stone armor has it's sides, it is not as good in accomplishing the primary role of the brute than other secondaries in most situations.
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I think what you're trying to say is that you can't admit that you are wrong and having no real experiance of playing a powerset you have been going off the descriptions in the text, rather than having first had experiance. You twister you.
BTW LOL
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NoT what i said , but if you want to know what i would have said is kinetic trollers make stone like a god , if you dont have kinetic trollers , the team has to pay for you being a lump and adapt .
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Nice to make things up in your own mind and take things out of context ...
Here is the complete things , but like all people who just mindless bash please quote the whole thing .
Here's what you actually said. "But without the proper support a kinetic , the stone armour is like a drag to play." I paraphrased, but seems fairly accurate.
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Now stone armour is a hard set to master and most just PL there way to granite without even knowing how to play it.
A stone brute has lower DEFENSE and RESISTANCE then a tanker no way it reaches the max .
If you think reaching the max is so important , in CoV thats easily done with a corrupter shielding , unfortunatly again it proven that no matter what people dont slot the shield others , but guess what if you have somebody slot the shield other , you will reach the cap without any penalty !!!
In that case suddenly stone doesn´t look so good
Sure Stone granite is uber i definetly wont deny that.
But without the proper support a kinetic , the stone armour is like a drag to play , it seriously is a rock and others beter not knockback anything from the aggro radius , or else its like crawl speed time.
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Here is what i said if you try to get things out of context please quote the whole thing . not a small part and definetly not try to rephrase it in your own meaning .
So shall we continue this flaming , or get back to serious topic ??
Cause when i do post or edit i write down what i edit , never do i take people things out of alignement like some other do .
Innigo, in my opinion a brutes role is to go in and dish the smackdown on whoever they meet and be able to stand up to as much punishment as they can at the same time. All brute builds in there own way have the ability to do this in differant ways.
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Drivel. Gauntlet works irrespective of the damage numbers.
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Really :P say that again when you tested it out with some other tanker doing more damage then you !!!!
AH never played with a other tanker in your radius ???
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Why would a tank need another tank within their team let alone radius add to that it can lead to messy taunt control.
"i thought you had him?"
"no i thought you had him?"
"poor kenny"
The duration of gauntlet is endurance related and the most damaging single target attacks or not so damaging aoe attacks are likely to have more of an endurance cost assigned to them. The duration for aggro caused by damage is far longer than the taunt duration caused by gauntlet so the result would be a nearby tanker using a higher damaging attack would be offering a better taunt duration and win aggro and also whoever has a better scale of damage after anybodies taunt duration is gone would get aggro.
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Why would you need a another tanker in your aggro radius ??
I dont but always they seem to join me once i have such big group around me , am stone not invunerable or fire or ice who has mobility to move around helping others , then leaving the orignal mob in place for the other tanker to handle .
So in that case yes my damage is way higher then most PUG tankers and my shielding higher , cause if they would charge in and handle the alpha i wouldn´t mind playing the support .
Now as for the rest thank you for explaining to others what i meant with my sarcastic flamepost 
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Innigo, in my opinion a brutes role is to go in and dish the smackdown on whoever they meet and be able to stand up to as much punishment as they can at the same time. All brute builds in there own way have the ability to do this in differant ways.
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No the brute roll is currently undefined , its simply a scrapper and lesser tanker rolled in one , trouble is that with I7 brute has been given a sudden stealth taunt aura radius .
So there roll have again been changed , infact the Brute is simply with fullfury a scrapper damage with scrapper resistance , that was made able to tank with a corrupter/mastermind support .
Stone armour even with the lower resistance and defense , is still higher then anything other Brutes has .
In a way a stone brute is able to tank in a certain limit not as well as a tanker , but definetly beter then brutes without support .
You cannot simply define the brute , cause its a flexible concept , people can create the brute they want , without being a gimp in a team , cause they were not meant to be tanks when CoV went into Beta .
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Here is what i said if you try to get things out of context please quote the whole thing . not a small part and definetly not try to rephrase it in your own meaning .
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LOL, you actually think your "context" changes something don't you. To paraphrase the bit you quoted; A stone tank is uber but without a kineticist is a drag to play.
Not: no other part of the quote establishes a "context", and even the uber part is irrelevent. So, since you don't seem to know what you're saying yourself anymore, lets ask the question.
Is a stone tank a drag to play if there's no kinetics support?
A yes/no answer will suffice.
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So shall we continue this flaming , or get back to serious topic ??
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A few tetchy remarks don't count as flaming.
If we'd stuck to the original point of the dispute even those could haven avoided. So lets spell it out;
Innigo;
-spd of rooted/granite is easier to overcome/adjust to than the -rchrge of granite.
Lonelyshade
-spd is the biggest handicap of the stone set
That's how it seems to me, or are you going to accuse me of taking you out of context again?
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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LOL, you actually think your "context" changes something don't you. To paraphrase the bit you quoted; A stone tank is uber but without a kineticist is a drag to play.
Not: no other part of the quote establishes a "context", and even the uber part is irrelevent. So, since you don't seem to know what you're saying yourself anymore, lets ask the question.
Is a stone tank a drag to play if there's no kinetics support?
A yes/no answer will suffice.
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Reading is a part of the a discussion , when you keep reading what you want , and then again try to back it up without any facts , then have to cross read , and twist things up just to make sense .
I dont know what you want ?? maybe i should take some of your example in your last couple of posts , cause its interesting how you describe one section of something .
Then next write your own answer to the previous statement.
Quoting game is very nice when well done , but doing a quote and snappy answer , when the next snappy answer contradicts your own quote reply is a bit silly .
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A few tetchy remarks don't count as flaming.
If we'd stuck to the original point of the dispute even those could haven avoided. So lets spell it out;
Innigo;
-spd of rooted/granite is easier to overcome/adjust to than the -rchrge of granite.
Lonelyshade
-spd is the biggest handicap of the stone set
That's how it seems to me, or are you going to accuse me of taking you out of context again
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- recharg only takes HASTEN to overcome !!!
gee thats 1 power in 1 powerpool with 3 slots .
-spd is how many powers and slot to overcome ??
takes hasten to over come, but if another brute has hasten he attacks EVEN more then the graniter can.
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I dont know what you want ?? maybe i should take some of your example in your last couple of posts , cause its interesting how you describe one section of something .
Then next write your own answer to the previous statement.
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This is barely comprehensible, but the answer to what I want was clear stated. I want an answer to the question you just avoided. Why did you avoid the question? It was an easy one, and multiple choice too, shouldn't have been too taxing, yet here I am, still without an answer. How interesting. But it's OK, I never expected one anyway
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- recharg only takes HASTEN to overcome !!!
gee thats 1 power in 1 powerpool with 3 slots .
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PLUS how many slots to end reduction?!? Stone has some very end greedy powers and granite isn't free, and neither is mudpots. As opposed to the -spd, which, despite your insistence only really take 2 slots out of the rest of the build. Yup, you heard me, 2 slots is ALL the -spd needs.
Let me explain.
You're taking fitness anyway so you've got to take either swift or hurdle, so the swift selection can be taken out of the -spd column. However, you do have to three slot it, so that's two slots that stay in the -spd column.
Now, teleport. Well, you're going to have to pick a travel power anyway and one end redux in teleport is plenty, so no actual slots have to be dedicated to the travel power. True, stone forces you into one travel power, but it doesn't represent a sacrifice in terms of your other powers.
Now lets consider your hasten solution. Of course, thanks to the -rcharge it's not actually going to be up that often. Someone else can do the maths but I;d guess it'll be up somewhere like 1/3rd to 1/4 the time and when it's up it creates its own end problem (assuming you want to actually benefit fully from it). So you're talking at least three, perhaps even fours slots in end redux in your bigger attacks and if you don't slot recharge redux as well then you're really going to suffer when hasten is down, so there's a similar amount of slots in recharge redux (although I wouldn't necessarily put them in the -rchrge column as you need them even when out of granite).
All of this versus 2 extra slots dedicated to swift.
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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takes hasten to over come, but if another brute has hasten he attacks EVEN more then the graniter can.
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If you dont go into GRANITE mode hasten affects you as much as other brutes.
Sorry whats that kind of logic , i mean if any other brute takes swift alone they save 2 slots
They dont even have to take TP its a free choice ,they only need TP other to achieve the same effect .
Cause simply put not many AT have the DEF and RESISTANCE of Granite , now i dont know why people argue , cause why is STONE ARMOUR with kinetic a god cause of Speed Boost , is it the regen factor of endurance , yes partially but that can be simulated with a empath Recovery Aura.
Nope its simply the speed boost that provides the god factor mode .
why take a stone tanker if you're not going to use granite armor. might as well make a ice tanker and have more defense, or a invulnur have more dfenese/resistance
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Nope its simply the speed boost that provides the god factor mode .
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Why, coz he can run into the mobs and find the spot where's going to stand still faster? I reckon the spamming taunts, the endless endurance and almost perma-available aoes and pbaoes all combine to be worth a lot more than being able to run around a room, or to the next spawn a bit quicker.
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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why take a stone tanker if you're not going to use granite armor. might as well make a ice tanker and have more defense, or a invulnur have more dfenese/resistance
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This is a very good question. The only reason I can think of is if you're up against a psionic heavy foe and you've got minerals. OR if you're in a low-ish mish where granite is just overkill. Apart from those situations, granite ftw
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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why take a stone tanker if you're not going to use granite armor. might as well make a ice tanker and have more defense, or a invulnur have more dfenese/resistance
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Who says you are not going to use granite , this is more why stuck being a granite , when there is more to offer in the stone armour set then granite.
Seriously if you dont understand that why are you playing a stone armour set .
Most people dont even understand the power of regen ,maybe shannon wants to mathematically calculate how much 275% regen with the health of a tanker is worth , compared to a ice tanker . especially when you are getting hit !!
Now as for brutes , when you tried different kind of brute especially when you level up , you would have known whats keeping you alive ,not that measy brute DEF .
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Who says you are not going to use granite , this is more why stuck being a granite , when there is more to offer in the stone armour set then granite.
Seriously if you dont understand that why are you playing a stone armour set.
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I personally would have put the question around the other way; if you're not using granite then why are you playing the stone armour set? The def and res of inv and ice is better and they get mez protection (as does fire) without the movement penalty of rooted.
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Most people dont even understand the power of regen ,maybe shannon wants to mathematically calculate how much 275% regen with the health of a tanker is worth , compared to a ice tanker . especially when you are getting hit !!
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I'm a big fan of base regen rates. My regen scrapper had 9 health enhs in fast healing, health and integration. But it's always much better to not get hit, failing that, get hit and mitigate most of the damage. Getting hit and regening it comes third. So i'd say the regen rate is of limited use on a tank, but perhaps is an important point for a brute.
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
You dont need to run perma granite with everything just look at the enemy and level of your facing and look at your team support and how good they are at it. On pugs start in granite to get the team dynamics right without dying (as learning to gel is good) and try to see little healthbar movement by all. Once you have it right take granite off. Some stonetanks could well be facing levels other tanks would just go weak at the needs at but taunt, gauntlet and mudpots is most likely less effective then.
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Most people dont even understand the power of regen ,maybe shannon wants to mathematically calculate how much 275% regen with the health of a tanker is worth , compared to a ice tanker . especially when you are getting hit !!
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Alone versus high burst damage its worth little but versus upto a certain amount of damage over time its great which is not only stating the obvious but is why i am not completely into "must have all the way damage sustainability" or worried about my "line of immortality". Just rooted and health using dr rocks thingy ma jig depending on what damage type ya up against ya survivability goes from 2/3rds to a 1/4 that of a firetank but in real terms you would take high burst hits and die instantly.
I am worried about how to get the best contribution from whatever team i am in. Its making sure whatever you have to offer works well with whatever anyone else has to offer that counts.
I dont really do maths but some of its good to know, i like to say stuff and go on and on until someone convinces me otherwise and thats it. When people prove me wrong and show me otherwise im happier for learning something new and it does happen alot. I didnt know it was worth 6 slotting DOs till Alvan told me last week!!. Enough people whoop me at the maths especially dr rock.
The tanker isnt my best toon, i have off days, i no longer play one everyday of the week, my peak came and went but seeing as they can have a huge impact and they initiate fights this is an important section for me.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
just gonna drop in with some comments as too slotting Granite, those of you slotting 3def 3res i assume dont have Stone Skin (do you?)
bc with 3slotted stone skin you hit rescap with 1-2 +Res in Granite, and since it is quite heavy on endurance i'd really recommend 1-2 End reducers
just because toggles doesnt carry over into Granite doesnt mean Stone Skin doesnt [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
i've slotted GA 2End 3Def 1Res and i'm as just about as immortal as i can get (imo)
you dont even need that many slots if you dont want to or just cant spare them.
as for the -acc pffft
@EU Brimmy - Union and Exalted servers
With V-Rock I slotted 3 dam res, 2 end red and 1 def enh, combined with stone skin with the default slot this let me hit the smashing lethal cap, and exceed the defence provided by rock armour.
Whilst 3 slotted swift allows a you to walk at a reasonable pace in either granite armour or rooted, you slow down to a halt if you use both (and if I recall correctly the mez protection from granite armour is not as effective as that from rooted so in heavy fire situations both are needed).
As to the "how uber is granite armour" in my experience I found it to be a pain in the bum on small teams. This is because on small teams every wallop helps and the slowdown, reduced recharge rate and damage meant I couldn't contribute as effectively. Generally for a team of 5 or less I would try to use rock armour and rooted as that was much more flexible. I only used granite on a)large teams with large numbers of high level spawns and b) if the excrement hit the rotating air re-distrubution device.
To read more of my thoughts on Granite Armour, check out V-Rock's Smash-tastic Guide to i6 Stone/Stone Tank
@Moondog
Union:
CoH: Moondog (WS); V-Rock (Tnk, semi-retired); Pole-Star (Bla); Demon Dog (Scr).
CoV: Midnight Gunner (Corr); Operative John Doe (Ban); Day-Star (Dom); Commissar Jaeger (MM).
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BTW, do you have or ever have had a Granite Brute or Tank so we know where your experiance is coming from on this subject.
[/ QUOTE ]I have L40 tank and L27 brute, although neither are stone armor. I have however teamed with loads of stone tanks (Including some of the first ones to hit L50 in the EU), and some stone brutes. I did also try a L40 elec/stone brute for a while during the RV test event.
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So not much actual experiance of playing them then, an instant lvl 40 would not give you the feel of them growing over time, so you really have no experiance par se to base your judgements on, whilst many of us who are replying to this play them, mines up to lvl 45 now on the brute, only 13 on the tank, and I also have a lvl 29 EM/EA brute and have player others, but the highest is only lvl 16 on them, so not to much experiance on them, so I know the way they play to another brute or tank, as I have other tanks as well, still not to high, but one with each armour nontheless.
Full knowledge is gained from experiance of playing something properly, I would never tell someone that a dominator set or corruptor set was gimped without first trying it out properly for example, by the same token I woul;d probably not even use the word gimped, rather, it didn't really work for me, but I know it worked for the one I saw in action in my last team.
You on the otherhand, and I hope there's nothing against the rules for stating this, seem to have set ideas about what is gimped and whats not.
[/ QUOTE ]I used the word gimp maybe a bit too harshly, It was meant as a semi-joke. I agree that stone armor is a decent set, and that granite can be good, but I also say that there are very few situations in which a granite will do the primary job of the brute AT better than some other secondary, and many in which it will do worse.