I've seen several Brute Granites in action, teamed up with a Kin they become really mob killers - to a certain degree. Add the Rage from SS/ and they can keep wacking red/purples pretty nonstop. Outside a Kin buff.. they just attack a bit slower, but can buildup fury somewhat faster since they can have way more mobs pounding them then the other brute sets.
Slot most attacks with 3 recharge you can overcome the -recharge, though you have a minor dent on the -damage part. I have tested a hasten-less Granite, they can perform ok (fast low quick damage) but they just lack a minor bit on damage. Luckely (nearly) perma Rage can overcome that abit. And you can always slot mudpots with damage, it does pretty ok damage too 
As for my Granite tanker, i only have 1 slot Defence, 3 resist and 2 EndReds are my other slots. I mainly focused on end-reductions, because outside Psi damage, running out of endurance is Fear #2 for Granites.
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(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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Granite can dish out decent damage, I do agree on that. However, a brute in granite will never be as fast and damaging than a brute outside of it.
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But a brute in Granite can kill those mobs that another brute would have been floored by, it takes a few more mins than the none granite brute, but the granite brute has the advantage he will still be standing after 3 mins rather than lying on the floor of running screaming "I'M ABOUT TO CRASH" lol.
Their greater staying power enables them to actually kill more and keep their fury high, and remember the 30% comes off the % of fury as well so say for example you have 250% due to fury on a EM non granite you would then have 220% on a Granite. Say your base damage is 50 this would give 175 Damage on the non granite and 160 Damage on a Granite, whereas the damage taken is as we know much less on a granite than a non granite on most types of damage.
So there we have it, I know 50 damage is just given as an example, but you can see the differance is just 15 points, and the Granite can have mudpots running as well so this will take care of that differance, althogh loadsa armours have an aura to, so this could be explained and excussed away again.
The way I see it not much in it really, fury maintained due to survivability, -recharge on a brute negated because we dont have to slot damage so can slot end reds and recharges, -70% run speed, well all stone armours should take swift and 3 slot it, this helps negate that, and because of granite you can root when in combat having gathered the mobs, and above all a granite tank only needs to run at a minimum 1 toggle, the granite, to survive, same on a brute, and the end cost is 0.13, add in rooted 0.13 again, mudpots is the biggy at 1.56 I think, and tough on a brute at 0.2. Put some end reds in mudpots, rooted and tough and away you go.
Never really had an end problem on mine except in really extended fights, but these usually happen in team situations, and against heros and AV's, and everyone usually has the problems then, not just me, excepting if we've go a /kin around then it's just amazing for ALL.
I'll leave you with this though, for a brute to keep ding his Bruting you have to be able to survive incoming damage as well as dish it out, take less = survive longer = dish out more damage. 
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No -Acc with Granite armour.
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I'm fairly sure there is, as are Warcry and Coldfront, which being at work are the only sources I can look up at the moment.
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There isn't, Warcry, Coldfront and Hero Builder are wrong, wrong and wrongo. No -Acc in Granite.
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There isn't, Warcry, Coldfront and Hero Builder are wrong, wrong and wrongo. No -Acc in Granite.
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I can't tell if you're joking, but since there's no smiley I'll asume you're not which leads me to the inevitable question;
What's your source?
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
I'm a perma-granite, i never noticed anything such as the -acc and we're talking 1 SO acc in all powers wich basicly never miss versus even lvl mobs. Neither does prisma guide state anything like this, neither the ingame stats (wich should have been fixed by now if it was that way).
There is no such thing as -acc in Granite.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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doesn't that give u more defense then an ice tanker :S. Granite needs a nerf.
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Ice tankers don't have a movement speed or recharge rate debuff when using their armors 
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Not to mention the damage debuff.
Besides, Granite has higher resistance than invul too, don't see you complaining about that. Just because a Tank has good Defence/Resistance, doesn't necessarily mean it's the best.
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There isn't, Warcry, Coldfront and Hero Builder are wrong, wrong and wrongo. No -Acc in Granite.
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I can't tell if you're joking, but since there's no smiley I'll asume you're not which leads me to the inevitable question;
What's your source?
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I'm the [beep]-ing source.
Play it & test it - there's no -Acc in Granite Armour.
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I'm the [beep]-ing source.
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Do I assume you are the messiah and therefor infallible or do I assume you're just another forum member, as fallible as anyone else and in which case am being perfectly reasonable in asking how you know?!?
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Play it & test it - there's no -Acc in Granite Armour.
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I have and I have; for the past 10lvls (lvl42) and it feels like there's an accuracy penalty. However, since someone who understood the concept of sources posted (and did so without reacting like someone had suggested they drop their wedding tackle in the deep fat fryer because someone didn't take their word as holy gospel) I'm happy to concede there's no mention of -acc in the game.
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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it feels like there's an accuracy penalty
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Try it with Hero Stats as feelings are unreliable.
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am being perfectly reasonable in asking how you know?!?
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Well, you didn't, you asked what my source was, as if player experience counts for nothing which is a little irritating, but I'm not the Messiah, I'm just a very naughty boy...then again...only the true Messiah would deny his divinity.
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doesn't that give u more defense then an ice tanker :S. Granite needs a nerf.
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Unslotted:-
20% def base for granite.
17( FA or GA ) + 1 ( wet Ice ) + 2.5 ( Energy absorption with 1 enemy ) = 20.5% defence for Ice.
Enhanced:-
31.2% for granite
26.5 ( FA or GA ) + 1 ( WI ) + 3.9 ( EA for 1 enemy ) = 31.4% for Ice
So no, granite has less defence than Ice. This does not include the double stacking of EA or it's increase in power with multiple opponents.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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Well, you didn't, you asked what my source was, as if player experience counts for nothing which is a little irritating.
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Why's it irritating? Do you always expect total strangers to accept your word on something? Do you accept the word of toal strangers to be automatically correct? If so, I have some magic beans you might be interested in 
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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Well, you didn't, you asked what my source was, as if player experience counts for nothing which is a little irritating.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why's it irritating? Do you always expect total strangers to accept your word on something? Do you accept the word of toal strangers to be automatically correct? If so, I have some magic beans you might be interested in
[/ QUOTE ]Well, it might be something to do with the fact that filth is one of the best stone armor experts on these boards....but hell, what do I know?
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Granite can dish out decent damage, I do agree on that. However, a brute in granite will never be as fast and damaging than a brute outside of it.
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But a brute in Granite can kill those mobs that another brute would have been floored by, it takes a few more mins than the none granite brute, but the granite brute has the advantage he will still be standing after 3 mins rather than lying on the floor of running screaming "I'M ABOUT TO CRASH" lol.
Their greater staying power enables them to actually kill more and keep their fury high, and remember the 30% comes off the % of fury as well so say for example you have 250% due to fury on a EM non granite you would then have 220% on a Granite. Say your base damage is 50 this would give 175 Damage on the non granite and 160 Damage on a Granite, whereas the damage taken is as we know much less on a granite than a non granite on most types of damage.
So there we have it, I know 50 damage is just given as an example, but you can see the differance is just 15 points, and the Granite can have mudpots running as well so this will take care of that differance, althogh loadsa armours have an aura to, so this could be explained and excussed away again.
The way I see it not much in it really, fury maintained due to survivability, -recharge on a brute negated because we dont have to slot damage so can slot end reds and recharges, -70% run speed, well all stone armours should take swift and 3 slot it, this helps negate that, and because of granite you can root when in combat having gathered the mobs, and above all a granite tank only needs to run at a minimum 1 toggle, the granite, to survive, same on a brute, and the end cost is 0.13, add in rooted 0.13 again, mudpots is the biggy at 1.56 I think, and tough on a brute at 0.2. Put some end reds in mudpots, rooted and tough and away you go.
Never really had an end problem on mine except in really extended fights, but these usually happen in team situations, and against heros and AV's, and everyone usually has the problems then, not just me, excepting if we've go a /kin around then it's just amazing for ALL.
I'll leave you with this though, for a brute to keep ding his Bruting you have to be able to survive incoming damage as well as dish it out, take less = survive longer = dish out more damage.
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, you can negate some of the side effects, but a brute outside of granite will still be doing more. Also, the whole consept of granite is against the consept of the brute AT. The devs didn't give brutes ice armor due to the fact that CE had -recharge on foes, which would slow down fury generation, and IMO if they thought that they shouldn't have fiven them granite either, because it really slows down fury generation, and the effect.
You say the -70% rech can be negated by slotting recharges, but a non-granite brute can slot those recharges and attack even faster. Also, a stone brute is still slow even with swift, and teleport just isn't usable in some situations. While a granite can take more damage, in most cases a non-granite can take the damage just fine, while dealing higher damage, thus defeating the foes faster.
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Well, it might be something to do with the fact that filth is one of the best stone armor experts on these boards....but hell, what do I know?
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And I know that, how?
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
To end this worthless discussion :P
Sorry Granite Armour pays for it hibernate form with ability to hold aggro .
With the biggest draw back ever !!!
Mobility ....
Nomatter what all the other drawbacks are mobility is the problem with Granite form , the mobility to not jump small steps , the mobility to crawl with rooted and granite on.
Sorry to gain back mobility you have to sacrifice how many slots ?
And power choices that again needs to be slotted ?
All other drawbacks are not as important as mobility , why do you think unyielding with root on the spot wasn´t popular ? even with the taunt everything you can see back in I3.
Now as for granite definetly slot with 3 DEF its worthwhile dont take my word for it just test it out
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Yes, you can negate some of the side effects, but a brute outside of granite will still be doing more. Also, the whole consept of granite is against the consept of the brute AT. The devs didn't give brutes ice armor due to the fact that CE had -recharge on foes, which would slow down fury generation, and IMO if they thought that they shouldn't have fiven them granite either, because it really slows down fury generation, and the effect.
You say the -70% rech can be negated by slotting recharges, but a non-granite brute can slot those recharges and attack even faster. Also, a stone brute is still slow even with swift, and teleport just isn't usable in some situations. While a granite can take more damage, in most cases a non-granite can take the damage just fine, while dealing higher damage, thus defeating the foes faster.
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Your argument is flawed; granite doesn't fit because it slows thing down. That seems to be about the size of it. So, every brute not slotted for maximum fury generation, every brute that doesn't have hasten or slotted for maximum fury sustainability... isn't a brute? I don't think you're saying that, but that's how it's coming across.
Seems to me you've created a very narrow definition of a brute (a definition you're implying, but not sharing). From my point of view a brute is just an AT that puts out decent damage, but also has decent defence capabilities. The exact ratios of the two can vary according to the design of the player. Granite armour just pushes the defence and damage over imaginary lines, making the playstyle different, but far from unrecogniseable.
A non-granite brute isn't going to take a fraction of the damage a granite brute can, yet will still put of damage that a granite would not only sell his granny for, but probably the rest of the pensioners in the retirement village as well.
Seems like a brute to me. Just one that leans more towards defence than damage.
The movement issue; A lot is made out of it, but it's making mountains out of molehills. In a given battle you rarely have to move very far and thanks to shift and left mouse button tping about can be done very efficiently. Do Brutes depend so heavily on speed? Not that I've seen.
But having said all that I am getting the gist of where you're coming from; I assume granite Brutes play more like tanks than any others and hence your objection to the power, but, meh, it's nothing compared to MoG being in regen
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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Well, it might be something to do with the fact that filth is one of the best stone armor experts on these boards....but hell, what do I know?
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And I know that, how?
[/ QUOTE ]Well, you might take a look at his posting history.
Also, you might want to note that Coldfront and Warcry aren't updated too often, and have lots of old/false information.
Look Innigo if you think movement isn´t a big deal make a stone tanker only needs level 8 to see what the movement is like with rooted , thats the speed you will be crawling with granit and rooted on.
TP cost endurance , again needs slotting , so in the end granite pays already 2 slots for swift , 2 slots minimal for tp .
Now stone armour is a hard set to master and most just PL there way to granite without even knowing how to play it.
A stone brute has lower DEFENSE and RESISTANCE then a tanker no way it reaches the max .
If you think reaching the max is so important , in CoV thats easily done with a corrupter shielding , unfortunatly again it proven that no matter what people dont slot the shield others , but guess what if you have somebody slot the shield other , you will reach the cap without any penalty !!!
In that case suddenly stone doesn´t look so good 
Sure Stone granite is uber i definetly wont deny that.
But without the proper support a kinetic , the stone armour is like a drag to play , it seriously is a rock and others beter not knockback anything from the aggro radius , or else its like crawl speed time.
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Well, you might take a look at his posting history.
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Yes, because everytime I reply to someone's post I sift through their hundreds of previous posts hoping to find a pattern amongst the posts that demonstrate a certain level of knowledge about the current topic under discussion. Better me doing that than him saying "the in-game description makes no reference to -acc" as someone else was kind enough to do.
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Also, you might want to note that Coldfront and Warcry aren't updated too often, and have lots of old/false information.
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At the time I was sitting at my desk at work and they were the only sources I could find. I also note *now* hero builder makes refence to an acc debuff so I'm not the only one who was confused by the issue.
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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Look Innigo if you think movement isn´t a big deal make a stone tanker only needs level 8 to see what the movement is like with rooted , thats the speed you will be crawling with granit and rooted on.
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Mine is 42nd lvl atm. I almost *never* have granite and rooted on at the same time except when I'm swamped with mobs and not going anywhere coz they've all come to me.
In the early days I had rooted slotted with recharge redux so I could pop it off and then on again quickly. By lvl12 and my 1st round of DOs I had swift 3 slotted. But you're right between lvls 8 and 12 movement was a real pain. 4 whole lvls before the adaptations to the movement penalty really began to kick in.
By the time 22nd and SO's rolled around I'm moving as fast, if not faster than PBs and WSs in dwarf form (never raced them but I don't notice any real difference between my tank and PB) and their slow movement is rarely brought up as a huge issue.
Bottom line is I don't "think" it's not an issue. I know it's an issue, but an easily solvable one.
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TP cost endurance , again needs slotting , so in the end granite pays already 2 slots for swift , 2 slots minimal for tp .
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Swift needs slotted early, but tp can wait so long as you're willing to rest when travelling to a mission. Even now I've only got one end redux in tp and it's enough. It's more important to toss out the taunts and pbaoes than have a continuous attack chain so you can actually rest mid-fight without endangering the squishies.
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If you think reaching the max is so important
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Eh?
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the stone armour is like a drag to play , it seriously is a rock and others beter not knockback anything from the aggro radius , or else its like crawl speed time.
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Not my experience, sorry. Generally the only time I catastrophically lose agro is when the knockback throws mobs into the next spawn when most of the 1st spawn is still kicking. Then it's less the movement issue and more the recharge that's the limiting factor. Despite having taunt 3 slotted for recharge redux it's still not fast enough so I have to select my targets carefully. Even after a nova has scattered them, unless someone else hits them they'll all come back to me, so I have to prioritise the ones other team mates are attacking. When we're only dealing with a single spawn this is easy. When a second spawn is involved it's nigh on impossible, but then could your average fire or invul tanker do it either, if we're talking +3s, not likely without backup. Ice, probably, but they are the premier agro grabbers in the tank world.
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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Look Innigo if you think movement isn´t a big deal make a stone tanker only needs level 8 to see what the movement is like with rooted , thats the speed you will be crawling with granit and rooted on.
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Mine is 42nd lvl atm. I almost *never* have granite and rooted on at the same time except when I'm swamped with mobs and not going anywhere coz they've all come to me.
In the early days I had rooted slotted with recharge redux so I could pop it off and then on again quickly. By lvl12 and my 1st round of DOs I had swift 3 slotted. But you're right between lvls 8 and 12 movement was a real pain. 4 whole lvls before the adaptations to the movement penalty really began to kick in.
By the time 22nd and SO's rolled around I'm moving as fast, if not faster than PBs and WSs in dwarf form (never raced them but I don't notice any real difference between my tank and PB) and their slow movement is rarely brought up as a huge issue.
Bottom line is I don't "think" it's not an issue. I know it's an issue, but an easily solvable one.
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Wait you are saying they all come to you ?? even after a NOVA who scatters them beyond your 8 ft arc in open field ?
Honestly its not that i dont believe you , its that its highly unlikely in a 8 man team where attacks after a attack happens .
Having no rooted on in 8 man team while you move in , one simple hold knockback immo , sets you back a long way .
So you are saying as single tanker in a 8 man team , you willing to risk that ?
Honestly by the time SO kicks in lets say you will be moving as fast as people without sprint .......... 
You really want to test that go ahead challenge a people to a run duel , he only have to have sprint on ....
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TP cost endurance , again needs slotting , so in the end granite pays already 2 slots for swift , 2 slots minimal for tp .
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Swift needs slotted early, but tp can wait so long as you're willing to rest when travelling to a mission. Even now I've only got one end redux in tp and it's enough. It's more important to toss out the taunts and pbaoes than have a continuous attack chain so you can actually rest mid-fight without endangering the squishies.
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Well in this case your drawback of 30% damage could have been 50% less damage ,in this case you dont even need TP a provoke would do the same , so in this case you are static.
So again a perfect example of tanking , but unfortunatly not every situation is perfect .
In that example you dont need your attacks , so neither does the granite seems to be worst off .
So you reached your cap of how many mobs around you ?
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If you think reaching the max is so important
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Eh?
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There is a 90% cap on resistance and i can´t remember the defense value tought it was 50% def for a tanker .
Shields of for example forcefields , corrupters fireshield , allows other tankers/Brute to reach that cap .
So in essence they can also reach that cap of equel resistance and defense same way granite is.
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the stone armour is like a drag to play , it seriously is a rock and others beter not knockback anything from the aggro radius , or else its like crawl speed time.
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Not my experience, sorry. Generally the only time I catastrophically lose agro is when the knockback throws mobs into the next spawn when most of the 1st spawn is still kicking. Then it's less the movement issue and more the recharge that's the limiting factor. Despite having taunt 3 slotted for recharge redux it's still not fast enough so I have to select my targets carefully. Even after a nova has scattered them, unless someone else hits them they'll all come back to me, so I have to prioritise the ones other team mates are attacking. When we're only dealing with a single spawn this is easy. When a second spawn is involved it's nigh on impossible, but then could your average fire or invul tanker do it either, if we're talking +3s, not likely without backup. Ice, probably, but they are the premier agro grabbers in the tank world.
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honestly the reason that granite makes superior tanks compared to others is that they can stand up to 3 mobs .
Still be kicking and damaging stuff , so if you want to only fight one mob , you might as well have taken another tanker and do beter in it .
A granite is the rock , cause it can easily handle 3 mobs , sure it can´t hold the attention of 3 mobs , but that also depend on creativity of the playere
But seriously do you have a granite form yet ?
And did you try it before screaming nerf , or did you do your calculations from the planner and stats ?
Are you still not willing to give this one up, heck, thats dedication to the point of madness.
Anyone who just looks at the negative sides of anything is never going to see the good in anything.
We are trying to point out the positive sides to a powerset to people here, whilst explaining how to aleviate the negative sides that come with it, and all some people cam say is its gimped, shouldn't be a powerset for a particular AT etc.
As a brute it works well, fury builds up nicely due to the greater amount of incoming they can recieve, yes with 2 recharges slotted yout back to your standard attack speeds, and the -30% damage with fury going doesn't really add up to much, your speed is still ok, and heck on some of those cave missions i prefer to go slower, lol, and still you only have negative things to say.
And its -65% rech, the -70% is in speed m8. And the none granite brute may attack that few seconds faster, but he still has incomming to mitigate at the same time. Activation times for the powers are the same, so attack chains still go off at the same speed, you just have your powers available sooner, as with hasten, and the amount of attacks from the initial alpha won't change, the Granites ability lies in the ability to take that alpha better than any others and more often, turning it into fury by staying on his feet and smashing them to bits.
So, it's never really slowed my fury generation one bit, go on MaX, try it and you'll see. And btw, no tp on my brute, it is a power I just don't like the end cost for the distance is to high really, tryed it once and hated it, personal taste really on travel powers. I will try it again, but like Dark Regeneration in the Dark Armour set I think the end cost is toooo High.
I wonder from all those posting here, who actualy have a Granite brute or Tanker? Granite is a style of playing, just like a squisy dark or a fire armor based one.
-acc issue, nobody thus far came with hard proof that its actualy there (outside that several websites claiming it), since i got my 2nd computer back online i might go for a ctrl-click punch test versus some white minions (no acc slotted offcourse). Surely after a 100 hits i can make a nice line, if i got time i'll boost it to a 500.
As for the recharge, nobody actualy knows the exact % debuff, though i wonder what the actualy formula is for having a -recharge (time x 1 / (1+buffs/debuff?) = 4 x 1 / 0,3 makes 13,3 seconds). Or would it be a (time x 1+debuffs? = 1 x 1.7 = 6,8 seconds). I rather keep the guideline, recharge penalty = 2 recharge SO's.
Anyway, to be continued.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
Yeah, but with Kinetics, all the problems of Granite are solved
[ QUOTE ]
Granite can dish out decent damage, I do agree on that. However, a brute in granite will never be as fast and damaging than a brute outside of it.
[/ QUOTE ]
And what's your point?
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)