[ QUOTE ]
Is it me or did someone just **** in here?
i say that cos all your how to get by without taunt so far offers no one any potentially nigh on guaranteed safety and i like potentially nigh on guaranteed safety.
[/ QUOTE ]So, you say my playstyle is not safe, without ever seeing me play?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Chilling embrace applies instantly and lasts a while, with a bit moving around you can keep 17 foes with it.
[/ QUOTE ]
And while you are moving around, those 7 strays are firing off one attack each at the original object of their aggro, the squishy AoE magnet blaster.
[/ QUOTE ]They're not, because I team with people who can wait a few seconds before attacking, for me to group the foes in a way that's optimum for AoE attackers. Those who team with me either learn that, or die.
[ QUOTE ]
Then you're down to the question of why on earth not to take it in the first place?
[/ QUOTE ] Because I had powers I felt I needed more. I am putting taunt in at L49.
[ QUOTE ]
It's like an empath taking absorb pain instead of aid other. They both a heal a target in trouble but one is so blindingly, obviously designed for it that it's madness
[/ QUOTE ] Yes, and that one is absorb pain.
[ QUOTE ]
They're not, because I team with people who can wait a few seconds before attacking, for me to group the foes in a way that's optimum for AoE attackers. Those who team with me either learn that, or die.
[/ QUOTE ]
i have a anecdote to tell thats related to this.
Earlier this week my level (at the time) level 32 Peacebringer got invited to a team doing 37-38 dev earth. I said "sure, but I need someone to SK me" The highest level in group was 35, so it made me 34. 3-4 levels difference is still way better than 5-6 i guess.
Anyway, the team already had a tank, I cant recall if the tank had taunt or even his primary, but what i do recall is that after only 1-2 groups and wipes he left. We reinforced with a scrapper and decided that maybe we could try pulling as new tactics... new wipe.
So the scrapper said, "any other plan?" to which i said that, well, i could try go dwarf and use that to tank with. Bear in mind only slots ive put in dwarf are 4 in the form (3 for dam resist and one for endurance enhancement)
No slots in any attack other than the basic, and those slots are recharge redux to increase my rate of attack. No accuracy, no damage.
I told the team that if im gonna tank, they do what i tell them... period!
I had No real taunt area other than "dwarf flare" and only antagonize as a "taunt"
for the remainder of that mission we only had one death in team, and that was after a swarm tried to escape, someone followed it, and returned with a new spawn before we had finished of the old. (and me going back to human for a quick heal, got held before i could return to dwarf to prevent the casualty)
The lesson of this is that Teamwork + Tactics is just as good as Taunting Tanker.
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
[ QUOTE ]
The lesson of this is that Teamwork + Tactics is just as good as Taunting Tanker.
[/ QUOTE ]For keeping team alive, yes. A tank is not necessary. Personally, I consider the role of the tank to gather a group of foes that's close to the aggro cap, if the team is heavy on AoE damage, OR keeping the AV nobody else can. Or, of course, keep the team alive if the team composition is such that there are not enough support characters to do so.
In Task force i was in we did fine without a tank for two missions by letting the Invuln scrapper take the alphas.
Against Tsoo a Storm defender with blasters walking along inside the hurricane made the mission easy if not downright boring. A tanker in that group would have been downright "in the way"
So, you will hear no argue from me whether a team actually needs a "tank".
So, if a team can get by without a tank then surely a tank can get by without taunt?
And then I read these threads about how the perfect tank takes taunt for maximum aggro control. Whats next? "must" the perfect tank also take Tough to cap his S/L resistance, or "must" he take Aid self instead because the number crunchers tell us that is much better? or to triple slot Health instead of putting those slots in Tough hide since the increased healing speed over time is more efficient that 1% more defence?
We havent got to the best part yet, my favorite is when people are advised to take punch instead of kick because the Animation time between is so much longer for Kick so it decreases the DPS..
The irony of it all is that no matter how expertly you have your taunt aura, taunt, provoke and even if you slot your attacks with taunt enhancers.. you can still only get 17.
No matter how mad your herding Skillz are, there will still be strays that will be able to aggro the squishies unless youre careful..
A certain Stone tank I teamed with spring to mind, Granite, Taunt, Mudpots.
"hey watch me herd these two groups"
Oooops, maybe he forgot that Dev earth multiply with pets and eminators and swarms.. he hit his aggro cap pretty fast...
..And he was still standing when the rest of the team returned from hospital.
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it me or did someone just **** in here?
i say that cos all your how to get by without taunt so far offers no one any potentially nigh on guaranteed safety and i like potentially nigh on guaranteed safety.
[/ QUOTE ]So, you say my playstyle is not safe, without ever seeing me play?
[/ QUOTE ]
im saying ambushes, unexpected aggro, limitations to what your tanker can take and do plus game mechanics apply to everyone plus despite having not seen ya play i have been warned:P. Kidding aside i do believe that this game can be done with as little recoveries, quicksaves needed etc but reality doesnt always work that way with different maps, different teams, different enemies and different missions can throw things at a tanker that no amount self belief in your tanker no taunter can as easily readily deal with, im not saying that just because you have taunt it will make you a better tanker, but it will offer more tanking skill ability and taunt control. You would have to show me how you defy game mechanics to make me think otherwise taking into account all i have just mentioned.
I truly believe that certain types of characters in the team or a mix of characters that can negate the need for taunt or even so far as a tank for that matter but i would have to say overall a tanker has to have a proper answer for as close to any mix of team mates as possible. Your ranged temp powers that you say would save someone from an instant hit to 2 hit can miss and i wouldnt even recommend my hurl as a taunt replacement and thats even if it had a extremely short action time. I mean what is your ranged temp power assault rifle bean bag? taser from being technology? One person who is a multihitter of high damage could be gunning down the 16 +lvl 4s around you your taunt effects suddenly go from 15 - 10 and in that moment 5 foes cream him. Now i know other ATs in the team can do something about that, but aiming for complete taunt control is the tankers job.
[ QUOTE ]
Against Tsoo a Storm defender with blasters walking along inside the hurricane made the mission easy if not downright boring. A tanker in that group would have been downright "in the way"
[/ QUOTE ]
Stick fortitude on a storm defender and just watch them go! alongside other defender sets (could be a controllers defensive side) you can pretty much pass on needing a tank for alot of things.
[ QUOTE ]
Bear in mind only slots ive put in dwarf are 4 in the form (3 for dam resist and one for endurance enhancement)
[/ QUOTE ]
end mods are slightly better better return i think
[ QUOTE ]
I had No real taunt area other than "dwarf flare" and only antagonize as a "taunt" (and me going back to human for a quick heal, got held before i could return to dwarf to prevent the casualty)
[/ QUOTE ]
a hold duration could be upon you whilst in dwarf form and its not until you come out of it takes effect.
[ QUOTE ]
The lesson of this is that Teamwork + Tactics is just as good as Taunting Tanker.
[/ QUOTE ]
Teamwork + tactics apply even with a taunting tanker. A taunting tanker is no excuse for people to completely n00b out as there is only so much than can be coped with in so much time.
[ QUOTE ]
And then I read these threads about how the perfect tank takes taunt for maximum aggro control.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well yeah.
[ QUOTE ]
Whats next? "must" the perfect tank also take Tough to cap his S/L resistance,
[/ QUOTE ]
its about taunt control, build wise you can get by with enough support even if you skipped all your passives and in some cases only took the passives, "some" people who concentrate on being as tough as possible either arent always working as effectively as possible in combo with the team or the team isnt with them and feel they need to. A team could offer me much more support and cooperation than another made up of the same ATs and powersets.
[ QUOTE ]
We havent got to the best part yet, my favorite is when people are advised to take punch instead of kick because the Animation time between is so much longer for Kick so it decreases the DPS..
[/ QUOTE ]
Kick is higher damage than boxing but actually lower dps, but only really preferable if your carrying an axe or something to eliminate drawtimes or like the concept.
[ QUOTE ]
The irony of it all is that no matter how expertly you have your taunt aura, taunt, provoke and even if you slot your attacks with taunt enhancers.. you can still only get 17.
[/ QUOTE ]
All toons afaik have an aggro cap of 17. If there is a mob of 34 a tanker can go in and effectively gain and hold the aggro of just 17. Any team member could run in and get the other untaunted 17 meaning the rest of the team if dumb enough to try and help out would have 34 to deal with. So obviously the ideal thing would be wait for the tank to bring his 17 out.
Once the 17 is out if he had no taunt and didnt attack all the aggro will come away from him when the team attacks. If he had an aura then 10 will stay (providing there is enough duration between taunt pulses., The slight gap for a foe to leave is one of the reasons of how people can turn around and say they have pulled from a tanker). Now if you have 10 taunted in your aura your gauntlet could be affecting 5 of those 10, allowing 7 that could go off in different directions (possibly to a debuffer who would of had to of lived to provide enough debuffs for the tank/team to survive). As an icetank i dont think the actual taunt duration is any better than anyother but the debuff is good and debuffs as any debuffer knows wins aggro. The ice primary offers the least need for taunt, certain secondary sets do in their own way (if they connect) but usually with any tank once a villain is no longer in your aura (for upto 2 seconds tops i reckon) and ungauntleted and untaunted they are looking for anybody.
Also as my debuffer by a tank leaving my debuff zone to get to a foe 20 feet away to save that mate (when its probably too late) would do so at the expense of the herd becoming unherded with aggro drifting in different directions, then having more people get hit (most likely my debuffer would be down in no time or the blaster would have 5 foes shoot him (as no one said the villains had to run to him). Some foes kill people in 2 hits.
As an icetanker you may go upto +3 battle maiden and hit her (Wham!). One hit, lights out with other people to follow or at the sametime when you could of taunted her from afar and make her pullout her crossbow which she then tickles you with. Now some tanks may say we need a rad or a dark or a rad, a kin and a dark but i personally would like to say any, should be ok with just one if everybody is all for a bit of teamwork. Although i would say how i'd of gave a +2 psionic AV a go with just a sonic defender still eludes me.
"My tanker doesnt have taunt it doesnt fit in with my concept" - good reason to not take taunt. Just let people know so they can play differently (normally in a less dot way as they need to judge for themselves whats safe to hit).
"i can get by without taunt with the teams i am in" - fair enough
"taunt is a waste of a power pick till..." - this comment misses out its reasons for being stated and thats my general problem plus any rubbish and less guaranteeable alternatives for taunt for certain situations put forward.
"i can keep 17 with just aura and gauntlet all of the time" - game mechanically defying without outside help of a must haves in team. Either that or your solo.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Loook, let be honest about this.
Taunt is a great power. No questions. Auto hit 5 mobs, 4 second recharge, zero end cost, good duration.
No matter what your skill level is, you will be better at grabbing aggro with taunt than without it.
Lets face it, not taking taunt means you are freeing up a slot for either another attack or possibly more protection. Lets be honest, skipping taunt means you either take a step towards being a skranker rather than a tank, or take a step towards being more resiliant rather than being an aggro grabber.
By all means, argue all you want, dont take taunt if you dont want it, but lets call a spade a spade. Skipping taunt makes you a less team freindly tank, more of a skranker and lets not deny it.
I know I know that a good tank without taunt is far better than a bad one with it, but this is actually a completely irrelevant comment to my argument above - you have to look at it as all things being equal. You can say the same about nearly any build in the book but you dont get people saying a good controller with jump kick is better than a bad controller with his single target hold, do you?
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
Bear in mind only slots ive put in dwarf are 4 in the form (3 for dam resist and one for endurance enhancement)
end mods are slightly better better return i think
[/ QUOTE ]
yeah sorry, i meant end mods (and not end redux)
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
[ QUOTE ]
Taunt is a great power. No questions. Auto hit 5 mobs, 4 second recharge, zero end cost, good duration.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am pretty damn sure taunt unhastened without recharges is 10 second recharge. Taunt imo adds survivability to the team and the tank but some people wouldnt leave out punch for it:P
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Just want to comment on the aggro cap of 17.
Few mobs are that big so mostly it's only when you herd that the aggro cap start matter.
Now my main is a blaster and from my experince as one herding is overrated. Don't get me wrong I'd rather team with a tank that is good at herding than one that isn't but there are seldom any reson for them to actully use that skill. It's only when you have small pairs of foes scattered over a large area that I as a blaster would want to see the tank herding.
Mobs plural, forget about it. I'm squisy so I rather fight the mobs one at the time instead of a herd of 2-3 mobs or more and risk get overwhelmed.
While you don't risk a team wipe when the tanker is good at it you know that you'll get at least 1 faceplant and it's usally the blaster.
From a blasters point of view, a tank isn't there to save the squisies by pulling foes off them, it certainly isn't herding. Tanks are there for one reason and that is to take damage so that I as a blaster don't have to.
Tank, reciver of Alpha strikes be thy name!
How a tank does that, I as a blaster really don't care. Be it with taunt, punchvoke, or just running into the mob (that last one works perfectly well before a nova) as long as the make the mob attack them and ignore little ole me untill I've gotten my first attack chain off. After that I don't mind if i take a little bit of damage because by then hopefully the mob will have thinned out enough for it not to matter.
Which leads me back to herding. When a tank herd a couple of mobs then it doesn't matter if I get off my first attack chain unoticed since it won't thin the foes out enough for me to be able to take any secondary damage. In that situation if the tank isn't very good at what they do or happen to exceed the aggro cap of 17 well then my blaster is a goner.
(There is another minor reason, why I as a blaster dislike herding. Simply because a herding tank seems to have to move around. That means that my nova and target for my AOEs will often be drawn out of the ideal position. That is in the dead center of the mob.)
Lastly, a comment on tanks being redundant in teams. As a blaster I rather have a tank in my team than a healer. A healer can heal any damage I take but I rather not take any damage in the first place and that's the tanks job.
[ QUOTE ]
The lesson of this is that Teamwork + Tactics is just as good as Taunting Tanker.
[/ QUOTE ]
Teamwork and tactics are essential in any scenario. Nothing to do with tanks or other ATs for that matter, since there is no single type of character that can keep team alive if the rest of the team decide to make it difficult. (well, somebody who forcefully team teleports everybody hell outta that situation is about the only thing that crosses my mind..)
And btw, I dont know a single tank secondary attack that would ADD to team survival more than taunt.
[ QUOTE ]
And btw, I dont know a single tank secondary attack that would ADD to team survival more than taunt.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hammer... meet nail....
Yep folks, the only reason to take another attack is that it helps solo play. It doesn't help team play more than taunt.
And as for the argument
Tank + Good teamworks is as good as Tank with taunt.
This isnt the point.
Tank with taunt + Good teamwork is better than Tank + good teamwork
[ QUOTE ]
Tank with taunt + Good teamwork is better than Tank + good teamwork
[/ QUOTE ]
Never said it wasnt.
But does taunt promote teamwork or does it mitigate bad teamwork?
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
Both, and more...
Allows pulling by tanks to corner
Allows you to pull your weight facing the cabal
Allows you to work with knockback
Allows you to pull ambushes and second groups, and whoopsie dasies that will occassionally happen even in very good groups
[ QUOTE ]
Both, and more...
Allows pulling by tanks to corner
[/ QUOTE ]
There are ways to do this without using taunt, also, if your intention with the corner pull is to split a group in two so you only handle half while the other remains, taunt can actually be risky as you could accidentally hit a boss with it, and pull the whole group
[ QUOTE ]
Allows you to pull your weight facing the cabal
[/ QUOTE ]
as i never did the croatoa arc on my tank i have to take your word for it.. I have done it on my peacebringer tho.. and it has made it my firm belief that all of croatoa should be soloed...
[ QUOTE ]
Allows you to work with knockback
[/ QUOTE ]
falls under "mitigates bad teamwork" i should think
[ QUOTE ]
Allows you to pull ambushes and second groups, and whoopsie dasies that will occassionally happen even in very good groups
[/ QUOTE ]
only if you are in range..
Ambushes can happen when you are halfway across the map heading for the next mission, the latter falls under (accidental) "bad teamwork"
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
The only better secondary power a tank can take is Ice Slick, IMO.
But this tank taunt vs non-taunt debate is as old as the hills. Clearly some people feel able to tank without it.
Personally, I dont feel like Im a tank without it (when im playing a tank), and I dont feel comfortable teaming with a tank without it. I simply dont get a tank without taunt... Im sorry. If I had a choice, I wouldnt team with them, but thats just me. And yes, Im not proud of it, I would do that without judging the tank at all. Because not choosing it often represents a psychological set of the tank that they dont care about the team and aggro grabbing half as much a tank that gets it. Not always, but I myself find this a very good rule of thumb. Sorry folks, Its my last prejudice and Im not even sure I should be apologising for it. I do know that there are some good tanks out there without taunt, but Im not prepared to find out. Yikes! Im a bigot!
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Yep folks, the only reason to take another attack is that it helps solo play. It doesn't help team play more than taunt.
[/ QUOTE ]
When I leveled up once a long time ago, I had to make the choice of either taking taunt and severly hamper my ability to solo or to not take it, have solo ability and being a tauntless tanker on teams.
There was in my mind other more necessary powers that I felt I needed first. Taunt not being one of them, Travel powers another that was delayed (took me into the 20s before I got fly even, I think the large independence port map had something to do with that decision)
Every time i hit that even level.. there was a new power i just had to get instead, but such is the lot of a Inv/Em tank. I never got that spare power I felt I could "waste" on those 10% of the time I teamed.
I dont have the same problem even close on my Nrg/Nrg blaster.. as I have "wasted" powers to get 2 travel pools, for concept reason, without having the slightest feeling of being gimped or lacking a "must have" power.
But now Im older and know more, had I started a Inv/Em from scratch today it is perfectly possible for me to pick taunt much earlier..
But the reason behind this is a greater knowledge of the game and of which powers that is skippable on behalf of taunt. (like resist elements and energies, I would still not skimp on the offensive capabilites interestingly enough)
But maybe this is more because of Em I think, due to it getting its high powers attacks so late, and lack of early AoE attack (and its slow recharge)
Compare this with my Stone/ Fire with mud pots and combustion where leveling is as easy as running into a 8-10 group of green or maybe blue minions, hit rooted and just spam combustion, it recharges quick enough.
Taunt all of a sudden becomes useful even solo as it becomes a tool to force mobs that are outside the AoEs to move into it.
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
[ QUOTE ]
Now my main is a blaster and from my experince as one herding is overrated. Don't get me wrong I'd rather team with a tank that is good at herding than one that isn't but there are seldom any reson for them to actually use that skill.
[/ QUOTE ]
My blaster would much rather hit 16 at once than 5 here and 5 there, it kills more sooner and saves on endurance seeing as one attack can hit 16.
As a debuffer i would prefer all mobs in one place so that they all fit withing my debuff zone with no affect on me and maximum effect on all foes.
As my buffer which heals i'd rather only have to worry about the tanker who can take it all with me as support pretty easily.
As my scrapper i dont go all "noob" and show people that i can tank *cough* scrank mobs if their is a tank on the team as i may be making the tanker who would arrive have to tank more than he needs or not on his terms (im too pro for that really:P).
As my tanker i'd prefer to have every foe around me in the debuff zone and for even my own survivability not hitting anyone else as i need them to cut fight duration down quickly and/or support me.
As my controller i would rather control a mob thats already taunt controlled than try to control a mob and miss a couple who promptly face plant me
My kheldians are there to support in what way they may need too.
When you have not just a blaster for a 50 you may see that reasons for herding apply to more than your toon. I have kicked a regen for as much as saying there is no point in herding with a rad on the team. I generally hate regens because they are so self reliant they can be blind to the needs of other types of characters. Imo the best scrappers were all super reflexes before defense scaleability.
[ QUOTE ]
Mobs plural, forget about it. I'm squisy so I rather fight the mobs one at the time instead of a herd of 2-3 mobs or more and risk get overwhelmed.
[/ QUOTE ]
So would i, the best herding is one mob at a time and not look to show off, have as said the foes could spawn more foes, or more mobs come out of nowhere for you to handle. The best (in my experience of 3000 + hours of playing this game) tanks dont even bother trying to show off.
[ QUOTE ]
While you don't risk a team wipe when the tanker is good at it you know that you'll get at least 1 faceplant and it's usally the blaster.
[/ QUOTE ]
As a blaster all aggro is avoidable by carefully choosing who to attack and when, what can draw aggro to the blaster even if you do carefully make sure the tank has got them taunted for 2 seconds or more is when a tank doesnt establish a renewed taunt then you get aggro.
[ QUOTE ]
From a blasters point of view, a tank is only there to save the squisies by pulling foes off them, it certainly isnt herding.
[/ QUOTE ]
No herding is it get foes tightly in a 10ft pbaoe aura soi that taunts that are constantly cast by the aura hit the foes so that you as a blaster can be shooting them without getting any attention. Secondly alot of us tanks on this forum have blasters (in my case every AT upto times 4) and its also from playing these toons we learn more about what a tanker can be doing. I have a 50 blaster too with over 600 hours on that.
[ QUOTE ]
How a tank does that, I as a blaster really don't care. Be it with taunt, punchvoke, or just running into the mob (that last one works perfectly well before a nova) as long as the make the mob attack them and ignore little ole me untill I've gotten my first attack chain off. After that I don't mind if i take a little bit of damage because by then hopefully the mob will have thinned out enough for it not to matter.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now if you did care on the presence of a good tanker you could ebe that blaster that helps him to help you through knowing how not to mess the herding process and play in a way that can help him keeop his aggro better even in other team members dont.
[ QUOTE ]
Which leads me back to herding. When a tank herd a couple of mobs then it doesn't matter if I get off my first attack chain unoticed since it won't thin the foes out enough for me to be able to take any secondary damage. In that situation if the tank isn't very good at what they do or happen to exceed the aggro cap of 17 well then my blaster is a goner.
[/ QUOTE ]
It is impossible for a tanker to exceed 17 its impossible. Only if someone else is near the tanker whilst he is gaining the 17 can you possibly get more than that for the team to deal with. As said some creatures spawn more creatures and so gaining 17 of these can turn into mob which means the tanker is being a planker.
[ QUOTE ]
(There is another minor reason, why I as a blaster dislike herding. Simply because a herding tank seems to have to move around. That means that my nova and target for my AOEs will often be drawn out of the ideal position. That is in the dead center of the mob.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Your meant to wait for the tankers herding to stop 
its best especially with invulns to atleast let them say ready before you attack.
[ QUOTE ]
Lastly, a comment on tanks being redundant in teams. As a blaster I rather have a tank in my team than a healer. A healer can heal any damage I take but I rather not take any damage in the first place and that's the tanks job.
[/ QUOTE ]
Some teams play as though the tanker may as well not of been there as happened today on a tf that Gun-Nut tanked. I dont know how Gun-nut put up with it but i would of gone nuts. Its a very nicely built tank.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tank with taunt + Good teamwork is better than Tank + good teamwork
[/ QUOTE ]
Never said it wasnt.
But does taunt promote teamwork or does it mitigate bad teamwork?
[/ QUOTE ]
When i play Shannon i think some people seem to think they have an excuse to n00b out which really puts me off playing her as i would like the courtesy that these same people grant to other tanks like waiting for me to finish herding and then say ready. As an invuln even more checks for consolidation have to be made.
[ QUOTE ]
Taunt all of a sudden becomes useful even solo as it becomes a tool to force mobs that are outside the AoEs to move into it.
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Yes and even more useful as "any" tanker to get mobs back into other peoples aoes like oil slick, sonic dispersion that may be cast on you, disruption arrow, poison gas arrow, bring foes back in range of lingering radiation, debuff zones are created and foes must be kept in them to add survivability to all in the team. Doesnt matter what AT you are you have to look at everyone in the team and get all of your powers to work together in the best way. A debuff zone may need you to saty in it so that the debuffer remains safe and you taunting foes away from others and into the debuff zone making things safer all around.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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My blaster would much rather hit 16 at once than 5 here and 5 there, it kills more sooner and saves on endurance seeing as one attack can hit 16.
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So do I but considering that with a full team mobs often consists of about 8 to 12 Foes I still rather take 1 mob at the time instead of trying to herd 2 mobs or more and risk getting overwhelmed because the tank hits his agro cap of 17
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It is impossible for a tanker to exceed 17 its impossible. Only if someone else is near the tanker whilst he is gaining the 17 can you possibly get more than that for the team to deal with. As said some creatures spawn more creatures and so gaining 17 of these can turn into mob which means the tanker is being a planker.
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I admit I've never counted the foes but from what I've seen if a tank runs through 3 mobs then those 3 mobs will chase him even if only for a few seconds. I've so far never seen a few foes in one mob ignore a tank (or another AT) just because he already had 17 bad guys on his tail.
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Your meant to wait for the tankers herding to stop its best especially with invulns to atleast let them say ready before you attack.
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Tell that to the tanks. Most of the herding tanks never stop. Instead they are constantly running around trying to pick up straglers or maybe a new mob if if the DDs in the team managed to kill a few foes.
Seriously though, the tanks that I prefer to team with does exactly what you suggested. They jump in to the foes get their attention and then tells the rest of the team when it's safe to attack.
Though those seems to be the exception to the rule.
((((Just have to tell an anecdote that happened to me recently that's kind of related to this but doesn't really have somthing to do with the disscussion.
The team I was in need a tank. I suggested one that I think is a great tank but the team invited another one that the whole team (cept me) said was the best tank they ever teamed with.
Tank comes in and the first thing the tank does is start herding, it's the second thing the tank does too. In fact it's the only thing the tank does. It never stands still, it moves around constantly. As soon as some of it's herd dies, it goes after another mob. Never waiting for us to finish the herd off or telling us when we should attack. Instead the rest of the team had to chased it around, trying to get off attacks when we could.
When the team had wasted about 5 nukes (2 of my own) because the tank moved away with the mob when they went off, I asked the tank if it could stand still so we didn't have to chase it around and waste nukes like we did. Another blaster also said something along those line. The tanks reply was "Don't tell me how to play" (that's practically word for word. Won't forget that reply in a hurry) and then went on herding.
Now the thing I find the most mind boggling about this experince isn't that the tank was bad at what it did nor that the player behind the tank couldn't take suggestions or construktive critisism.
It's the fact that the rest of the team thought the tank was one of the best tanks on the server and with the exception of me and the other blaster probably still does!!!)
Best tank i ever played with , was the reason i took up tanking , and it sure wasn´t a herding tank !!
No the best tank is the one who can improvise under any situation , with the tools and people they have .
Sure they might not feel important to people , but you notice it right away when the tank face plant , so does others.
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((((Just have to tell an anecdote that happened to me recently that's kind of related to this but doesn't really have somthing to do with the disscussion.
The team I was in need a tank. I suggested one that I think is a great tank but the team invited another one that the whole team (cept me) said was the best tank they ever teamed with.
Tank comes in and the first thing the tank does is start herding, it's the second thing the tank does too. In fact it's the only thing the tank does. It never stands still, it moves around constantly. As soon as some of it's herd dies, it goes after another mob. Never waiting for us to finish the herd off or telling us when we should attack. Instead the rest of the team had to chased it around, trying to get off attacks when we could.
When the team had wasted about 5 nukes (2 of my own) because the tank moved away with the mob when they went off, I asked the tank if it could stand still so we didn't have to chase it around and waste nukes like we did. Another blaster also said something along those line. The tanks reply was "Don't tell me how to play" (that's practically word for word. Won't forget that reply in a hurry) and then went on herding.
Now the thing I find the most mind boggling about this experince isn't that the tank was bad at what it did nor that the player behind the tank couldn't take suggestions or construktive critisism.
It's the fact that the rest of the team thought the tank was one of the best tanks on the server and with the exception of me and the other blaster probably still does!!!)
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I bet that tank pulls forward, doesnt check mobs too well for a foe worth preparing for and leaves blasters and defenders to tank the mobs hes left behind. There are so many so called "best tanks" on union that its ridiculous. I have never seen anyone i'd give more than a 8/10 to and i dont give myself more than that for the record.
If anyone dies from the tank leaving the herd without the tank saying run or something then the tank is bad and if anyone dies before the tank has consolidated the herd properly and said ready then someone in the team is either bad for herd messing or pulling for the point tank. Herd messing can happen when untaunted foes come to herdpoint and those too close pull the foes through perception or by being ahead of herdpoint or attacking anything whilst foes are still running to herdpoint. How hard is it to stay well back and wait? Well some people really struggle with it.
As said before I like to be sure one mob is done and then do the next mob, on a impatient team that doesnt like to wait for me to finish herding in the past i have left the last 2-3 foes to get a headstart on doing the next mob but that was making me tank against my will and no one can do that now im lvl50. Ive got my levels and i dont have to play her. If i said i will herd to here i dont care who i pass on way to herdpoint i will herd to where i said, those following wont necessarily be taunted as taunt aura is low on duration and its good luck to the idiot that didnt listen.
Peoples preferences will vary on many things but thats why we have global friends and global ignore. I have friends who i dont mind playing with as my scrapper because my scrapper can choose its level of aggro better but as my tank i would kick them because my tank cant so much and relies on a few things for survivability. I may of liked them as their defender but i dont have to like their scrapper. My invuln needs to herd fast and have the enemy snugly around her asap to give her defence, my fire needs them around her to kill them faster in a kill or be killed situation, the ice tank gains endurance and defence and also does damage better over time and the stonetank herds into the mudpots to kill faster and all this for any tank holds aggro away from team.
My brute is pure DM/DA, she needs to herd and hold aggro to survive. She has to almost get killed just to build fury but then she pops the hb back up and whoops the mobs about her dead quick. She needs mobs around her for health, endurance and damage and if they are knocked or taunted away she has limited life expectancy whereas kept covered in foes she does really nicely (a very sick set i love it). She has taunt which could save her from any other brutes auras stealing foes. I havent seen many brutes with taunt but imo its the best thing for making sure you gain and keep fury. By my brute keeping aggro not only does she benefit but the other non brutes benefit, she dont herd 17 though as for a brute i consider 7-9 as fine and so what if people can top that. So even on cov small herds maybe necessary.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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No the best player is the one who can improvise under any situation , with the tools and people they have .
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((((Just have to tell an anecdote that happened to me recently that's kind of related to this but doesn't really have somthing to do with the disscussion.
The team I was in need a tank. I suggested one that I think is a great tank but the team invited another one that the whole team (cept me) said was the best tank they ever teamed with.
Tank comes in and the first thing the tank does is start herding, it's the second thing the tank does too. In fact it's the only thing the tank does. It never stands still, it moves around constantly. As soon as some of it's herd dies, it goes after another mob. Never waiting for us to finish the herd off or telling us when we should attack. Instead the rest of the team had to chased it around, trying to get off attacks when we could.
When the team had wasted about 5 nukes (2 of my own) because the tank moved away with the mob when they went off, I asked the tank if it could stand still so we didn't have to chase it around and waste nukes like we did. Another blaster also said something along those line. The tanks reply was "Don't tell me how to play" (that's practically word for word. Won't forget that reply in a hurry) and then went on herding.
Now the thing I find the most mind boggling about this experince isn't that the tank was bad at what it did nor that the player behind the tank couldn't take suggestions or construktive critisism.
It's the fact that the rest of the team thought the tank was one of the best tanks on the server and with the exception of me and the other blaster probably still does!!!)
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I bet that tank pulls forward, doesnt check mobs too well for a foe worth preparing for and leaves blasters and defenders to tank the mobs hes left behind. There are so many so called "best tanks" on union that its ridiculous. I have never seen anyone i'd give more than a 8/10 to and i dont give myself more than that for the record.
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Actully, the point (if i had any) wasn't that the tank was bad or good at what it did (It was bad IMHO though.). But that you had a team in thier 40is that obviously never played with a skilled tank to be able to tell the difference between good and bad tanking. ¤0 lvl is a long time to play a toon and to never see a skilled tank in all that time, that's just scary.
For the record, I'm probably a lousy tank myself since I've never played one myself (cept for my first toon and boy was that a noob mistake. Had all the Resist powers befor temp. inv and had Jump kick, CJ and acor before unyielding. 
) So I only know tanking from a observers point of view. (though I tend to change that with my new tank)
I'm more of scarpper/blaster type of player. It's probably the eaiset play style just have to wait till team is ready to fight then just go wild killing stuff. The only thing you have to be cautious of is not agro another mob by mistake.
On the other hand Tanking is probably the hardest playing style since at any given moment you'll need to have full controll of where all the foes are, where the rest of your team, how your team is doing and what the foes are doing. You'll need to have really good situational awarness to pull that off.
If you are in a duo you can - probably - get away with it, until you fight some primarily ranged / flying foes. Sky raiders and cabals are absolute nightmares, and if you havent got taunt you are practically a leech.
Id say get it, it needs only one slot, but if you just duo you could leave it till 20s when you start facing those kind of enemies.