Heroes Vs Villains - Pentad Tournament Discussion
By
Animal_Mutha_EU,
Posted on: 2006-04-24 06:57 in Everything about PvP
To be honest kin, all is required is "time" - villans need to min/max v heroes in order to lean how to use the AT's effectivly, bearing in mind the team they host will need to focus on DMG output to break through any team. and right now tactics from villans are somewhat lacking in terms of Heros.
Sure thats to be expected though, as villans for pvp is still young in comparison.
Looking at the builds for villans, you have a MM, that once died then takes forever to reload his pets, upgrade, get back in the battle etc. by this time all his team are fighting 1 man down.. - secondly a Stalker is best when in hide. so untill he can visually see a good attempt to one shot a sqiggy then he is effectivly out of the game for a while and is not able to assist his team mates as he requires hide to do so.
Right now, to me and from what I saw last night. is the Villans seem to playing a PvE team and tactics in a PVP game. - the 2 should never be mixed.
As I said in a differnt post, to get better builds and to find what works/does'nt then villans need to find a few SG's on union to train with. - Most of the PVP groups train weekly, and will be good to get a villan group involved so we can offer our view to them about what was effective or not.
So if any villans want to train, then feel free to contact me @zak or join us from 8:30 on wens nights and we will all be happy to help.
This is interesting and its great to have this sort of events so we can learn more.
Note that I wasnt in the event but im just voicing my thoughts here..
[ QUOTE ]
I know Hide and Stealth stack but does grant invis also stack? If that is the case, future pentad teams MUST have someone with this to make use of Stalkers correctly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Grant invis stacks like nothing else.. Its very important for battling the +perception on opposing side..
[ QUOTE ]
don't actually know too much about MM secondaries but one thing I have seen is that some of them heal for double what my lvl 40 Thermal does. I've seen MM's doing group heals over the 400 mark compared to my Thermals 200-300.
[/ QUOTE ] Imo MMs are heavily defensive in nature and should be used accordingly.
[ QUOTE ]
Taunting From Brutes
I don't think I saw a single taunt all night. I know Brutes do not have the defence of tanks but a fully buffed one who is kept healed can still pull the biggest threat on the hero side off of your squishies with a taunt.
[/ QUOTE ]
Taunt is an important tool..
[ QUOTE ]
Dominators need some love in PvP as they are a poor relation when it comes to controllers. I would love to see some mez resistance tests run to see how much weaker they are but without Domination, they rarely get holds in. If anyone has an hour or so to copy some toons over to test and try this out, let me know. Basically, I'd copy 2 or 3 controllers and doms over with the same powersets and same level(and a respec available if possible) and spam a few holds on tanks and brutes in arena to see how much easier Trollers can break the mez than Doms. A very simple test but should give us some figures if run enough times.
[/ QUOTE ] Yes.. I wish I had the motivation to lvl up my dominator on union to see how I would do.. Imo doms are far too squishy for their effectiveness.. As they have zero of the defensive secondaries the controllers get, Their holds are weaker, the damage is naff.. I mean what were the devs thinking?
[ QUOTE ]
MM's need some huge love in PvP as pets really aren't any use.
[/ QUOTE ]
Im interested in the rumoured henchman taunt as it might change MMS in PVP completely.. Anyway imo the henchman summon recharge is WAYYYYY too long..
[ QUOTE ]
Corruptors and Stalkers are the key. One thing I did see during the fights was that villain teams did not seem to be bubbled or buffed anywhere near as highly as the hero teams. When heroes were hitting, they were taking off huge chunks of HP but when villains were hitting, they seemed to be missing, doing minimal damage and the damage was healed quickly. On the whole, heroes seemd to be spamming buffs and debuffs a lot more than villains as the Corruptors and MM's seemed to be concentrating on dealing damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Imo the villains are underdogs in terms of buffs, having half of the buffs in corrupters who are needed for damage and attacking as well.. Heroes are more obviously specialized..
Im not a pvp expert either but just wanted to say something..
I agree that MM's definately need some love in PVP, especially when it comes to henchmen recharge times. Several times yesterday I was able to use EM pulse to hold all of the MM's pets which left plenty of time to take down the MM himself with relative ease.
I was also quite surprised at how much of a difference my Rad debuffs were making to Granite brutes. Once debuffed it was very easy for the rest of my team to take down the brute and coupled with lingering radiation they had no chance of escape (one brute even stopped using granite half way through the match. Probably didn't like LR too much).
Overall I think that once Villain teams become as experienced as Hero teams we'll see some better matches however I beleive that certain villain AT's definately need some love in pvp. Villains should not have to chose certain powersets to even give them a chance in pvp otherwise a lot of casual pvp'ers are going to be put off.
Any feedback on how the Brutes performed Kin?
[ QUOTE ]
Any feedback on how the Brutes performed Kin?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really, Brutes are the hardest one for me to make any comment on as I'm never sure what they should be doing in PvP. We know what tanks and scrappers do and my overall view would be that brutes should replicate the scrapper role.
However, that leaves aggro management down to MM's, fine against PvE AI who will fight them but useless in PvP when everyone just ignores them and goes for the MM. Unless MM's get some sort of taunt built in, that leaves brutes to try and taunt aggro off the buffers/debuffers and they're not cut out for it like Tanks.
Again, there is the issue of mobility though as I actually saw one Brute who respawned after a kill. GA was up immediately and he then lumbered off back towards the fight. It took aggeeesss. Why TP isn't standard from granite brutes I don't know but going into a PvP event with those sorts of mobility problems is suicide.
Only really saw that one brute in action TBH.
One thing that annoyed the hell out of me as an observer though, why are the names over both teams the same orange colour? It was VERY hard working out who was on what team so why they don't just have different colours for each side, like in the PvP zones, is beyond me.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't actually know too much about MM secondaries but one thing I have seen is that some of them heal for double what my lvl 40 Thermal does. I've seen MM's doing group heals over the 400 mark compared to my Thermals 200-300.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're talking about /dark MM's.
1) It requires a hit which isnt always that easy without tohit buffs in the build somewhere.
2) You cant really heal anyone but your self. It a small pbaoe heal based arround you. Its no good with a moving team.
Its not simply how much you heal, its also how easy you can do it. /dark fails on the latter.
A Paragon Defender
[ QUOTE ]
Dominators need some love in PvP as they are a poor relation when it comes to controllers. I would love to see some mez resistance tests run to see how much weaker they are but without Domination, they rarely get holds in. If anyone has an hour or so to copy some toons over to test and try this out, let me know. Basically, I'd copy 2 or 3 controllers and doms over with the same powersets and same level(and a respec available if possible) and spam a few holds on tanks and brutes in arena to see how much easier Trollers can break the mez than Doms. A very simple test but should give us some figures if run enough times.
[/ QUOTE ]
My ice dom is level 40 so if anyone has an ice controller around that level, I'd be up for doing some testing. I don't think some level difference would matter either if we did the tests on a PvP zone. Mez durations scale slightly with level and I'm not sure what happens to that when exemping, but the difference is not huge even between 1 and 50.
I read the US dom forums a lot and the concensus seems to be that the holds are 80% of the controller duration and the magnitude is the same, except controllers sometimes get random +1 mag criticals. However I'd love to be sure about this as the US dom forums can be a pretty harsh place, there's lots of assumptions, misinformation and flamewars of the "Are we or are we not gimps" type.
Another thing I'm curious about is if and how resistance debuffs affect mez protection and resistance at all.
Couldnt make it to the pentads but in answer to your 1st post there have been a number of things ive found.
1) Grant invis does stack and is really a must, also for a good villain team -perc powers such as fire dom's smoke or nin stalker's blinding powder should be considered. Also teamwork is a must. Just because a stalker can be seen it doesnt mean he cannot AS or get crits esp if backed up.
2) Given that tier 1 MM pets are two levels lower then the MM and tier 2 pets are 1 level lower more acc enh are most likely needed then usual for PvP. Pets should also be used for other effects (mercs web grenade, bots -regen attacks etc.). MM's secondary is also very important and how it is used.
3) Movement is always the key, always always always! For both sides supressed and unsupressed.
4) Dom's pets are same as trollers. Fire would be for damage but damage isnt the only thing, sing can be very useful for control aspects. An MC dom can use TK which could be very useful in helping a stalker to land AS for instance as well as anoying overall. Grav can phase players I believe allowing for concentrated attacks on one target and time to heal/recover. Plant dom also has alot of powers to help stalkers land AS, imho doms and stalkers should work hand in hand at all times.
5) Being the only non-squishy villain brutes should use taunt.
This is very much only from my own exp of fighting in teams but I have not fought in prepared pentads so please take that into account as I may be wrong in what Ive said.
Hope though that some of this can be of use, if only for ideas.
imo the only difference on the night was experience, 3 of the 4 hero teams had PvP experience oozing out of them from S4, international monday fight nights and practises. Retribution and AoW have been fighting each other every night for the last week. With this kind of experience we understand each and every power, how to counter powers, what our powers can and can't do etc.
For example most of the FF MM's clearly had no idea they cud be hit in the bubble or that invul or kin can go through the bubble. Due to this belief they never used an offensive bubble power, detention field is awesome and i neever saw it used. Also a villain was complaining about blasters beating stalkers in melee, with this kind of lack of knowledge loosing is inevitable.
it is my opinion that a villain team can be very good an i no a few guys including myself who will make a villain team for the next tournament to try to show this
[ QUOTE ]
So if any villans want to train, then feel free to contact me @zak or join us from 8:30 on wens nights and we will all be happy to help.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey zak where do you train i would be interested in dragging along The Horde to train. 
Globel:Ronin
The Horde
nly the strong survive.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So if any villans want to train, then feel free to contact me @zak or join us from 8:30 on wens nights and we will all be happy to help.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey zak where do you train i would be interested in dragging along The Horde to train.
Globel:Ronin
The Hordenly the strong survive.
[/ QUOTE ]
Peregine Island arena on test server, come along and join in the fun usually get a few french guys turning up these days too
Great!! We would love to join you, and would like to see many other groups getting involved, I got a little fed up with people using excuses like "Heroes have more slots" and "Heroes have accolades". It was simply teamwork that undid most of the Villian Teams, although I do believe that pentads do offer a slight advantage to heroes due to there being more "Squishy" classes in Villains imo.
We need to bring villains out of the PvE mind set and learn how use all of our Powers, not just the ones that work when spammed against longbow.
[ QUOTE ]
Great!! We would love to join you, and would like to see many other groups getting involved, I got a little fed up with people using excuses like "Heroes have more slots" and "Heroes have accolades". It was simply teamwork that undid most of the Villian Teams, although I do believe that pentads do offer a slight advantage to heroes due to there being more "Squishy" classes in Villains imo.
We need to bring villains out of the PvE mind set and learn how use all of our Powers, not just the ones that work when spammed against longbow.
[/ QUOTE ]
nice one mate we're always willing to fight anyone and give feedback/help etc on the fight or just give tips and any help thats needed
[ QUOTE ]
although I do believe that pentads do offer a slight advantage to heroes due to there being more "Squishy" classes in Villains imo.
[/ QUOTE ]
How ever you're toons are more designed for damage, using the right tactics, it doesn't matter how squishie the other team is, you all hit the same target, it aint gonna last long. The mains problem with the villains team was communication. I know the games AoW played against villains, they always ended up coming in drips and drabs and just getting pick off one by one.
[ QUOTE ]
How ever you're toons are more designed for damage, using the right tactics, it doesn't matter how squishie the other team is, you all hit the same target, it aint gonna last long. The mains problem with the villains team was communication. I know the games AoW played against villains, they always ended up coming in drips and drabs and just getting pick off one by one.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is an excellent Point and Im sure that no one can argue it, I heard that Gutts and his team actually came within 5-10 kills of beating a Hero team and that they were using "team tactics" for the first time in the tourney.
We have a lot to learn, and im glad this event has shown us that. Im kinda hoping that it has boosted the desire for Pvp on Union and am looking forward to much PvP fun from now on
people seem to forget that heroes currently also have on average 15 more enhancements slots than villains...
Of the 18 extra enhancements that I have, 12 of them are slotted on powers chosen at 40+. I think this would probably be similar across most people and so I don't see this as being too much of an issue.
Imo, its all down to the very limited arena PvP that villains have experienced so far, and their knowledge of both hero and villain powersets.
For example, all of the stalkers we faced running into a full team of heroes solo and expecting not to be seen.
Jupiter is slow looking into his notebook, but he always looks.
The [b]Retribution[/b] is coming.
[url="http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Valens_ii/"]Some of my toons[/url]
[ QUOTE ]
Of the 18 extra enhancements that I have, 12 of them are slotted on powers chosen at 40+. I think this would probably be similar across most people and so I don't see this as being too much of an issue.
Imo, its all down to the very limited arena PvP that villains have experienced so far, and their knowledge of both hero and villain powersets.
For example, all of the stalkers we faced running into a full team of heroes solo and expecting not to be seen.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not only that, there is a post somewhere on here about how SO's become less effective as you exemp down through the levels and Bridger has confirmed that this is true. While exemping down will leave you stronger than a non exemped alt of the same level, it IS scaled down so the effectiveness of those extra slots is weakened.
Coupled up with the fact most of those extra slots are spent on powers that you don't have available when exemped, I've always felt the difference those 10 levels make is not as big as some people might like to think.
If anything, Gutts team showed that the team work on the heroes side is the main factor. They had similar teamwork and caused a few surprises. When I looked on in one of their battles, they were fighting VERY differently to the other villain teams I watched.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, knowing a lot of people disagree with me. Villains fight villains and because there are clearly groups that are good, consider themselves to be good PvP'ers. On the occasions they fight heroes and are beaten, usually quite heavily, they say it's balance and slots that are the problem.
It's Not.
Yes, they are a factor and in close run battles will make a difference. But, most of the battles, including those on Sunday, saw the villains not getting beaten but completely slaughtered.
Until villains are willing to have several months worth of getting pwned by the best hero PvP groups on a REGULAR basis, things will never change.
We HAVE to face heroes in pentad and arena competition whenever possible, not just to see what works against them but also to see how they work. I'm in the process of holding a few Tuesday night arena battles against other villains so I can get some PvP experience. Once I've got to the point where I know what my role is, I will not be waiting until my PvP team is one of the best villain ones before fighting heroes. As soon as we can function on a basic level as a team, we will be fighting hero teams straight away.
I know we will probably be suffering a lot of defeats for a long time, but I think we're going to learn more from that than anywhere else. With the feedback we'll be getting from those teams, they'll be able to let us know what works and what doesn't and we'll have people observing as well to give feedback.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of the 18 extra enhancements that I have, 12 of them are slotted on powers chosen at 40+. I think this would probably be similar across most people and so I don't see this as being too much of an issue.
Imo, its all down to the very limited arena PvP that villains have experienced so far, and their knowledge of both hero and villain powersets.
For example, all of the stalkers we faced running into a full team of heroes solo and expecting not to be seen.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not only that, there is a post somewhere on here about how SO's become less effective as you exemp down through the levels and Bridger has confirmed that this is true. While exemping down will leave you stronger than a non exemped alt of the same level, it IS scaled down so the effectiveness of those extra slots is weakened.
Coupled up with the fact most of those extra slots are spent on powers that you don't have available when exemped, I've always felt the difference those 10 levels make is not as big as some people might like to think.
If anything, Gutts team showed that the team work on the heroes side is the main factor. They had similar teamwork and caused a few surprises. When I looked on in one of their battles, they were fighting VERY differently to the other villain teams I watched.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, knowing a lot of people disagree with me. Villains fight villains and because there are clearly groups that are good, consider themselves to be good PvP'ers. On the occasions they fight heroes and are beaten, usually quite heavily, they say it's balance and slots that are the problem.
It's Not.
Yes, they are a factor and in close run battles will make a difference. But, most of the battles, including those on Sunday, saw the villains not getting beaten but completely slaughtered.
Until villains are willing to have several months worth of getting pwned by the best hero PvP groups on a REGULAR basis, things will never change.
We HAVE to face heroes in pentad and arena competition whenever possible, not just to see what works against them but also to see how they work. I'm in the process of holding a few Tuesday night arena battles against other villains so I can get some PvP experience. Once I've got to the point where I know what my role is, I will not be waiting until my PvP team is one of the best villain ones before fighting heroes. As soon as we can function on a basic level as a team, we will be fighting hero teams straight away.
I know we will probably be suffering a lot of defeats for a long time, but I think we're going to learn more from that than anywhere else. With the feedback we'll be getting from those teams, they'll be able to let us know what works and what doesn't and we'll have people observing as well to give feedback.
[/ QUOTE ]
someone buy this man a beer well said mate
i no a few of us will be putting a villain team together for the next tournament to really find out if there is a balance issue which i personally believe there isnt, a villain team is different to a hero team and needs to be played differently, its as simple as that imo
I would genuinely be very interested to see how your villain team holds up against Shaman X or AoW for example. Make sure to advertise when this happens, cause I'd love to see you guys fight and be shown how it should be done.
PS I just re-read this and realise it looks horribly sarcastic, so I just want to add: It's not :P
by the way X-treme is indeed Shamen-X - so I would personally LOVE to see them fight themselves.. :P
/em gets popcorn
[ QUOTE ]
I would genuinely be very interested to see how your villain team holds up against Shaman X or AoW for example. Make sure to advertise when this happens, cause I'd love to see you guys fight and be shown how it should be done.
PS I just re-read this and realise it looks horribly sarcastic, so I just want to add: It's not :P
[/ QUOTE ]
we'll most likely fight AoW as they're always up for a fight i don't expect miracles but i think it will be a good fight, i will post on here when i have arranged it, it will be in a couple of weeks at least tho
/em look stupid
OK, we had the PvP Pentad tournament last night and while things didn't go to planned, we did get a lot from it as a result. Due to an initial poor tunrout on the hero side, the decision was made to have mixed hero/villain matches in two groups of 5.
As a result of this, it was probably the first time there have been a series of Hero V Villain pentads and there's a lot of points to come out of it. Here are a few points I noticed and hope everyone there will chip in with their viewpoints and identify any areas of improvement
StalkersWere Under Used In General
I didn't look at all the builds for the stalkers involved but it seems there was only one or two specifically designed for PvP. I'm not sure of how the stacking of -Perception stuff works but a visible stalker leaves you down to 4 on 5. I know Hide and Stealth stack but does grant invis also stack? If that is the case, future pentad teams MUST have someone with this to make use of Stalkers correctly.
Pets are No Use At All
I think everyone saw this. Even when the pets were out, I noticed them missing a lot and the standard '2 accuracies' that tends to apply to PvP builds needs to be upped to 3 in the case of pets(probably sue to the -1 level on them?). I don't actually know too much about MM secondaries but one thing I have seen is that some of them heal for double what my lvl 40 Thermal does. I've seen MM's doing group heals over the 400 mark compared to my Thermals 200-300.
So, could the best PvP MM be one that doesn't really bother with pets but concentrates exclusively buff and debuffs? As I said, I don't really know MM's and this is just somehting I've observed from watching matches and PvE.
Movement Is Key
I know this has been bought up and there are a few arguments over it but I watched 3 of the hero/villain matches and in only one of those did I see any form of movement from the villains. The two matches with the lack of movmeent were both ones that resulted in HEAVY victories for the Hero teams and the one that I did see a lot of movement in was a very slight victory for the Hero team.
Dominator Pet's
I actually saw a couple of these summoned and my gut reaction was... Huh? A Dominator should be all about holds. Pets do not do enough damage to worry PvP teams and as soon as the Dom is down, they're gone anyway.
Taunting From Brutes
I don't think I saw a single taunt all night. I know Brutes do not have the defence of tanks but a fully buffed one who is kept healed can still pull the biggest threat on the hero side off of your squishies with a taunt.
Overall
I still DO think villain teams can beat hero teams, but I do NOT think villains will win regularly in pentad matches. The key AT's for villains are definitely Corruptors and Stalkers so a 5 man team with a chance would be made up of these two, possibly with a Dom thrown in from what I've seen so far.
Dominators need some love in PvP as they are a poor relation when it comes to controllers. I would love to see some mez resistance tests run to see how much weaker they are but without Domination, they rarely get holds in. If anyone has an hour or so to copy some toons over to test and try this out, let me know. Basically, I'd copy 2 or 3 controllers and doms over with the same powersets and same level(and a respec available if possible) and spam a few holds on tanks and brutes in arena to see how much easier Trollers can break the mez than Doms. A very simple test but should give us some figures if run enough times.
MM's need some huge love in PvP as pets really aren't any use.
Corruptors and Stalkers are the key. One thing I did see during the fights was that villain teams did not seem to be bubbled or buffed anywhere near as highly as the hero teams. When heroes were hitting, they were taking off huge chunks of HP but when villains were hitting, they seemed to be missing, doing minimal damage and the damage was healed quickly. On the whole, heroes seemd to be spamming buffs and debuffs a lot more than villains as the Corruptors and MM's seemed to be concentrating on dealing damage.
I'm no PvP expert and I only saw brief bits and pieces of the matches going on so anyone else who was in teh amtches or saw them, please add your views. While yesterday did end in the Heroes favour, there has definitely been progress on the Villain side from the last time I saw any of these sort of matches and I think we can definitely close it more once we have 40+ and a bit more time.