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I usually get so depressed by the poor displays (and the debt I get) that I'll switch to Faulty and come on to show these youngsters how it's done. Am I the only one that feels sad that people no longer feel safe with a tank on the team?
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I don't think you are alone.. I don't play my tank anymore since I couldnt get over the fact that someone always died no matter what I did. Tanks can't keep teams safe on their own anymore, it requires much more coordinated effort from the whole team now.. I dont expect anything from tanks these days.
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I usually get so depressed by the poor displays (and the debt I get) that I'll switch to Faulty and come on to show these youngsters how it's done. Am I the only one that feels sad that people no longer feel safe with a tank on the team?
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I don't think you are alone.. I don't play my tank anymore since I couldnt get over the fact that someone always died no matter what I did. Tanks can't keep teams safe on their own anymore, it requires much more coordinated effort from the whole team now.. I dont expect anything from tanks these days.
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I don't feel safe with a tank in the team nowdays, since many of em are just tough scrappers that can't care less of keeping the team safe.
As long as they don't get debt they're happy, so you see people goin Unstoppable to run away after a nearly team-wipe, GA tankers standing there and hitting some minions while the AV cleans the team up and so on.
I am really happy while playin my tank, tho, as knowing what to do and aiming to keep the team safe gets me some 'Well done!' and I hope it spreads the confidence and knowledge of what tankers really can do.
I've been told really often 'Wow, never thought that a tank still could tank _that_ good due to the latest changes!', you still CAN tank, but you need to be good at it because if a tanker sucks it's more obvious that a [censored], say, empath wich can just spam Healing Aura and throw in the casual Heal Other or Absorb Pain to save someone.
Yup, ED made imho a devastating effect on tankers, together with max herd/taunt/aoe effects. Each day i fly around in Hollows, i still meet people that dont even know all these limits, dont even know the %-resist of their shields. Yet they do hit lvl50 eventualy, patience and fighting +1/+2 mobs. They got used to play against yellow/orange, having shields that can handle those. An ice tanker can handle +1/+2 very good, as so they learn their tactics to it.. untill they face +3/+4 in a 'skilled player team', down they go.
Maybe this is the 'hint' Cryptic gave with ED.. Act as team together. My gimped fire tanker (serious) still can perform well in teams if you just plan tactics first, instead of going 'the tanker takes it all' style.
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The problem isn't anything really to do with the perceptions of the nerfs - although it can't be absolved of blame entirely. The problem is simply this:
When most of us were playing tanks in I3, you could pretty much tank from ~Lv10, certainly your early teens. This meant that you could dive in and take the aggro for a whole team, albeit not as well as you would be able to later in the game. We "grew up" with this, we were tanking from the word go and everyone expected it of us.
Fast forward to now. Tanks really can't tank safely for a full team until they get SOs and even that can be hit and miss depending on the team and the mobs you're facing. New tanks basically have to scrank for half the game because they can't tank. So, they get used to it, their playstyle develops based on scranking, rather than aggro management. After 25 levels of doing it, it's hard to change your habits - equally, other players who have grown up with you don't expect you to be able to tank.
Despite the constant, soul-destroying nerfs and the massive effect that ED had on single enhancement powers, such as armours, good tankers can still tank. Problem is, that bad tankers can't tank *at all* any more and regardless, in most cases your "tank" has never learnt how to in the first place.
It's a sad state of affairs not made any easier by veteran tankers spouting off their "But I can still tank on invincible without any problems so you must all be whinging retards if you can't do it too" [censored].
I can still tank well, that doesn't stop it being bloody hard for a) New players to the archetype and b) People without min/maxed builds.
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I dont think its totally down to the tanks. Nowadays it seems teams wont give you just even 2 secs to consolidate the agro b4 they begin there AoEs.
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I dont think its totally down to the tanks. Nowadays it seems teams wont give you just even 2 secs to consolidate the agro b4 they begin there AoEs.
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Because they're not used to tanks being able to, or even wanting to tank. See above.
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I dont think its totally down to the tanks. Nowadays it seems teams wont give you just even 2 secs to consolidate the agro b4 they begin there AoEs.
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I'll agree with that - overly keen to say the least. Led to a couple of unfortunate incidents last night where everyone shouted "Ready", I tp'ed into one group and the rest of the team instantly charged straight at another in the opposite direction. I really need to bind "D'oh" for when that happens.
Faulty's rule number two - always wait to see where I'm going before attacking. 
Sorry but this is exactly what the devs intended with their nerfs. They don't want the tank to be able to do his job.
As mr cuddles, even with taunt and provoke, once you hit the 17 cap, your team are in trouble.
It should still be possible for a tank to completely protect his team from ONE spawn though. I gues some people build tanks to be scrappers.
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Sorry but this is exactly what the devs intended with their nerfs. They don't want the tank to be able to do his job.
As mr cuddles, even with taunt and provoke, once you hit the 17 cap, your team are in trouble.
It should still be possible for a tank to completely protect his team from ONE spawn though. I gues some people build tanks to be scrappers.
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So i guess the devs intended the tanks to be the least played archetype.. I guess that solves the powerset problem, if nobody playes tanks, they dont need new powersets..
In theory tank should be able to hold one spawn on him yes, when I try charging in and collecting the mobs with invinc I find that the mobs are suddenly mass immobilized 1 sec after I said ready, or knocked back away or what not. Sigh.
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I dont think its totally down to the tanks. Nowadays it seems teams wont give you just even 2 secs to consolidate the agro b4 they begin there AoEs.
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Yes and then when you try to ask the team to hold off with thier attacks until you have the stuation under control you get nasty comments about how your telling everyone what to do, and in come some abuse playing on the word "tanker" and people saying how i am being bossy and i should just let the team get on with it, this has happened a couple of times to me. Having said that i have had alot of fun with my tank in teams who are prepared to let me do my work first.
a good tank can still tank, a stone tank (even a bad one) can still tank as their spec has been pretty much left alone.
however i welcome the fact that the game now requires tanks to rely on team mates to do their job. it was and is rediculous that tanks could just stand there and take it all without needing anyone to help at all, ever.
i agree that scranking is more prevelant now adays, as was also said, tanking all isnt so expected either so scranking shouldnt be an issue, except with the old guard who say ney thats wrong be ashamed of your tanklessness.
I hated the teams where you'd get the tank that'd just run off and do whatever he wanted against whatever he wanted because he didnt need the team to survive, thats what the game allowed and that was terrible.
Tanks are no longer the center of the universe, good, maybe we'll stop getting these rediculous and condesending 'step back im herding' tanks who believe that the whole team should follow them to the letter then get huffy when it doesnt happen, coz, like, the rest of the team want to play too...
Having gone back repeatedly to my inv/energy tank i still dont find any trouble in tanking these groups because my team mates support me.
Leveling up new characters thru 20 i've seen tanks with and without the taunting central role, some are new players who just havent learnt the skill well enough yet to realise how it can work.
@ExtraGonk
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I dont think its totally down to the tanks. Nowadays it seems teams wont give you just even 2 secs to consolidate the agro b4 they begin there AoEs.
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Yes and then when you try to ask the team to hold off with thier attacks until you have the stuation under control you get nasty comments about how your telling everyone what to do, and in come some abuse playing on the word "tanker" and people saying how i am being bossy and i should just let the team get on with it, this has happened a couple of times to me. Having said that i have had alot of fun with my tank in teams who are prepared to let me do my work first.
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If they won't let you do your job well just make your excuses and leave or just scrank depending on whether you are enjoying yourself or not. Sometime teams don't want you to control all of the aggro.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
You have this knack of making infuriating posts.. Are you implying that I did that sort of whole floor herding back in I4-times?
lol from your reply I can tell that I was correct in putting this guy on ignore.
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Leveling up new characters thru 20 i've seen tanks with and without the taunting central role, some are new players who just havent learnt the skill well enough yet to realise how it can work.
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The problem is that new tanks rarely learn that role. Before I5 tanks were hard enough for that to be a relatively natural thing to do without a min/max build. Now they are still the best AT to do it, but without a min/max build or an above average team to support them they can't fulfill that role until SOs ( mid to late 20s for new players ).
Also one thing most new players do not realise is that you do not need an 8 man team for missions. In fact a low level tank is best off playing in smaller teams because it is easier.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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As Sundae slowly edges her way to 50, I get to see a lot of supposedly experienced tanks in action. I'm rarely impressed. I'll be on a team that is struggling or suffers a near teamwipe and the call will go out for a tank. He or she will arrive, everyone will breathe a little easier and we'll move onto the next group. Things are easier but one or two people still die, I still have to use my self heal or change to dwarf and yet no one seems to notice.
Is this what people now expect from a tank?
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i honestly dont know, it completely bewilders me. At late levels i tend to stick to people i know alot more or know me alot more for a better gaming experience. A blaster rushing in first doesnt help a tanker gain proper aggro consolidation and there are alot of things team mates can do to make it hard, but by and large, there seems to be a lot of tankers who either dont know what they are doing (well rise to meet certain expectations) or have given up telling people what they can and cant do to help the tank to keep aggro easier or atleast not put the tanker at more risk than he/she can bare. There are some teams where the dynamics are so bad i may as well be playing my scrapper as the opportunity to make things safer before people attack just isnt there and some people refuse to cooperate to make things easier. Three times i have had to ask someone to stop chucking caltrops at my feet. It wasnt until i told them it acts a bit like the fear that you get in burn that they stopped. They stopped because they have a lvl 50 firetanker so they knew what i was on about then, the fact is i was actually playing my firetanker. All i can say is i would hate to see them tank. I certainly dont have high expectations. It seems to be though the level of knowledge of a lvl 50 can be the same as a lvl 10 as far as teamwork goes. (imo teams could be on invincible at lvl 10 but PuGs rarely have that gel to not end up with hospital trips and many people dont build team orientatedly enough).
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Have they listened to all the talk about how much tanks have been nerfed and can't handle aggro and believe this is as good as it gets?
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Many tankers dont know what their actual limit to taunting numbers is let alone anything else. I have seen lvl 24 invulns running around unyielded, they run in get mezzed and everyone is trying to keep them alive, they level up and pick stealth. Some people just wont listen to advice.
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Are there so few good tanks out there now that this is the reality of having one on the team?
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I was on a team once with 3 tankers and in the first 5 minutes my non aggroing defender was left to tank. In answer to your question YES. We all on occasion have missed things (late graphics, poor perception, rl distraction breaking concentration etc) but in a small open room?
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I usually get so depressed by the poor displays (and the debt I get) that I'll switch to Faulty and come on to show these youngsters how it's done. Am I the only one that feels sad that people no longer feel safe with a tank on the team?
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No. There are people that do feel safe with certain people tanking on the team but not all tankers in general. All tankers are very good built and played right. Same for all ATs. I bet the DEV's would hold their heads in their hands watching how some people build and play. I cant wait for that guide to come out for people and all i can say is it better be good.
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Tanks really can't tank safely for a full team until they get SOs and even that can be hit and miss depending on the team and the mobs you're facing
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On teams where you can tank on your terms you can get all the aggro you want and survive playing with a build made up of TO's. Now in few situations (no defender included "EDIT: perhaps not on invincible against certain damagetypes)" the key factor to help in this is to have people see that any respites, lucks etc they can get can be given to the tanker because they dont need them - totally doable.
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Now they are still the best AT to do it, but without a min/max build or an above average team to support them they can't fulfill that role until SOs ( mid to late 20s for new players ).
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I kind of agree above average if the average is a typical PuG full of solo artists who have no understanding of other people toons or powers. I dont stay too long in those teams in fact, i now make the teams. Some defenders even look for me when i log on, I stay in debuff areas and taunt whats not in that area. I like having star to keep playing and tanking my way, if someone is messing me about causing more hardship than the team needs and refuses to cooperate i kick them. One person said to me "i dont know why tankers herd its a complete waste of time" - kicked.
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If they won't let you do your job well just make your excuses and leave or just scrank depending on whether you are enjoying yourself or not. Sometime teams don't want you to control all of the aggro.
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If i am on a team like that i wont team with them, i am either tanking or i am playing another toon, but my must have star now attitude and make my own teams up i just kick anyone not helping.
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Tanks are no longer the center of the universe, good, maybe we'll stop getting these rediculous and condesending 'step back im herding' tanks who believe that the whole team should follow them to the letter then get huffy when it doesnt happen, coz, like, the rest of the team want to play too...
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I still do the "i will herd to here" but i dont go about getting more than i can actually taunt. I do rely on the teams cooperation, i welcome the changes as it does make other ATs EQUALLY important and team work so much more necessary and i like that. I think i get your post and the scenarios you are relating too and i dont think its infuriating, but tankers can still tank just not so many and not so high a level as before.
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I dont think its totally down to the tanks. Nowadays it seems teams wont give you just even 2 secs to consolidate the agro b4 they begin there AoEs.
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Yes and then when you try to ask the team to hold off with thier attacks until you have the stuation under control you get nasty comments about how your telling everyone what to do, and in come some abuse playing on the word "tanker" and people saying how i am being bossy and i should just let the team get on with it, this has happened a couple of times to me. Having said that i have had alot of fun with my tank in teams who are prepared to let me do my work first.
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If someone dont like it they can get off my team i dont want them. I have only have interest in likeminded people, i'm interested in playstyle of the team xp is secondary.
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Leveling up new characters thru 20 i've seen tanks with and without the taunting central role, some are new players who just havent learnt the skill well enough yet to realise how it can work.
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i actually allowed another tanker to be on my team last night, he had a not very tanker like build but was new to the game so i dont mind so much. Its when the tankers are not new to the game and most likely yet dont have any aggroing ability i wont have them in the same team as me. I had a tell whilst playing my tanker the other day "hi we are 2 tankers can we team with you?" They can kiss my.......
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I think their ability to tank depends on a lot of things, mostly if they have built a "team tank" or "scranker", how experienced they are in tanking and what mindset they have.
Any tank who only got a tanker because they had high hits and is not interested in the rest of the team will do badly at keeping aggro. If that is what they want to play then fine, but if you are looking for a aggro magnet, then not very useful, and they should be told what you need in the team after a few mobs when it becomes obvious.
I personally believe that a tank is there to take the hits from everyone else, and nothing else. If someone else is being attacked, get the aggro back immediatley (slightly simplistic but you know what I mean), you should be the first to go down in combat, and to a certain extent should be calling the shots. Any team that doesn't understand this should either be left to it, or try not doing the job they want you to do for a couple of mobs, they will soon be happy with you asking people to let up till you have got the aggro.
I never really intended this to be a discussion about aggro limits, facing +5s, herding whole maps, nerfs to armours etc.. For me tanking has always and will always be taking on one group, holding most of the aggro, clearing it and then moving onto the next. The basics. All tanks should have the ability to get most of the aggro from one group - your aura, an aoe and one taunt should about cover it in short order. The support they need will depend on their build. A maxed out build will need virtually no support. Someone else might need lots. Not really the issue. My problem was just how the art of tanking seems to be vanishing.
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New tanks basically have to scrank for half the game because they can't tank. So, they get used to it, their playstyle develops based on scranking, rather than aggro management. After 25 levels of doing it, it's hard to change your habits - equally, other players who have grown up with you don't expect you to be able to tank.
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I'll agree with a lot of that. It did get me thinking though. Back when I started tanking I knew nothing about it. It took a long time to learn all the tricks. Heh, I remember hovering around the first respect because I heard that hover gave a defence bonus! I learnt to manage aggro because that was what teams expected and I wanted to be a good team player. Being an unkillable scranker was easy back then but it didn't get you teams. So I'm just wondering if the reason there are so many scrankers nowadays is because there is no incentive anymore to be anything else? As Spad says, people have leveled up in teams with scrankers, it's what they expect and so the tanks never even bother to change their playstyle.
nope hammer, you never did that in the times we teamed, the 'herding step back and dont play till i say' so attitude, has strangely become a lot more apparent since the tank supposedly became incapable of doing their jobs.
tanks are not gods on two legs anymore, they are part of the team and they need the team, just like the rest of the team.
@ExtraGonk
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nope hammer, you never did that in the times we teamed, the 'herding step back and dont play till i say' so attitude, has strangely become a lot more apparent since the tank supposedly became incapable of doing their jobs.
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It is, because my friend, team must hold back in order to allow tank do its job succesfully. Most tanks shouldnt be content with just scranking. Thank the changes. I know tanks did that back in the olden days as well, and it was about massive herds back then which i disliked, but now it is really necessary even for just one mob spawn.
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tanks are not gods on two legs anymore, they are part of the team and they need the team, just like the rest of the team.
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I think we all agree on this, so maybe its time to stop advertising it at every opportunity. Unless you like to rub salt in other peoples wounds.
Herding and gathering a mob group aint the same thing at all, seriously though i dont think a tank needs to be left alone with the mob first to tank effectively, yes it might make it easier and safer but certainly not needed as the groups not going to be trying to gather so much that the tank (or group) cant handle it.
Salt and wounds, as long as players persist with the viewpoint of 'tanks are rubbish coz it aint i4' they i'm going to continue to point out that its not true anymore.
If players can not or will not adapt to the new gaming environment and what is really happening out there on the servers then they should stop talking with authority on subjects which they are no longer expert on.
@ExtraGonk
I was going to write a guide for tanking but while doing research I found this...
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...part=1#2925504
OK it might be a little out of date but it more or less sums up everything I was going to say. Though I may still write a mini guide on tactics since new tanks don't seam to know how to do simple things like corner pull.
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Herding and gathering a mob group aint the same thing at all, seriously though i dont think a tank needs to be left alone with the mob first to tank effectively, yes it might make it easier and safer but certainly not needed as the groups not going to be trying to gather so much that the tank (or group) cant handle it.
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I like to get a whole group in one place and keep them there when i am maximising the effects i can get out of debuffs. People seem to be oh we need a healer, for me debuffers are great although more so on disciplined teams.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I like to get a whole group in one place and keep them there when i am maximising the effects i can get out of debuffs. People seem to be oh we need a healer, for me debuffers are great although more so on disciplined teams.
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Yep, debuff is now a really good combo for tanks, before it wasnt important, now it very much is and it makes sense to gather them.
calls for healers /groan can worms, well more can worms than this thread already 
maybe we need to talk about pling and leechy empaths while we're here 
@ExtraGonk
As Sundae slowly edges her way to 50, I get to see a lot of supposedly experienced tanks in action. I'm rarely impressed. I'll be on a team that is struggling or suffers a near teamwipe and the call will go out for a tank. He or she will arrive, everyone will breathe a little easier and we'll move onto the next group. Things are easier but one or two people still die, I still have to use my self heal or change to dwarf and yet no one seems to notice.
Is this what people now expect from a tank? Have they listened to all the talk about how much tanks have been nerfed and can't handle aggro and believe this is as good as it gets? Are there so few good tanks out there now that this is the reality of having one on the team?
I usually get so depressed by the poor displays (and the debt I get) that I'll switch to Faulty and come on to show these youngsters how it's done. Am I the only one that feels sad that people no longer feel safe with a tank on the team?