[ QUOTE ]
I was going to write a guide for tanking but while doing research I found this...
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...part=1#2925504
OK it might be a little out of date but it more or less sums up everything I was going to say. Though I may still write a mini guide on tactics since new tanks don't seam to know how to do simple things like corner pull.
[/ QUOTE ]
I like that guide, its a really nice guide.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I probably should have mentioned that the "You just want god mode back because you're [censored] and you can't handle tanking without I3 power levels" line is just as tedious, if not moreso than "But I can still tank on invincible without any problems so you must all be whinging retards if you can't do it too".
Omnes relinquite spes, o vos intrantes
My Characters
CoX Chatlog Parser
Last.fm Feed
Some people dont have their fun in tanking without having that god mode or gaining xp is slower and more tedious for them without it and some people dont whinge because they are simply the other way around.
One of my fave tanker friends dont tank now cos its now boring to him despite him being a very good class tanker imo.
People who say people cant tank now must have a very different look on the game to me.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
Salt and wounds, as long as players persist with the viewpoint of 'tanks are rubbish coz it aint i4' they i'm going to continue to point out that its not true anymore.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you don't understand what we're saying...
Spad is saying that _now_ starting a tank and being able to properly tank(get the aggro first and keep it)it's not possible till you're completely SO'd up.
We're not saying'We want I3 power levels back.' it's more like 'We want to have an effective AT off the box like any other AT', because any other AT can do his job pretty much off the box, they all become more powerful in the late game but everyone can start doin his job right away: Blasters can already damge stuff more than anyone else, scrapper can damage stuff and are tougher than any other AT bar tankers, defenders can use buffs/debuffs and blast, controllers can control and buff/debuff while tankers start as low-damage tough scrappers and they're able to _tank_ in the mid-20s, while every other ATs becomes ace at his job with SOs a Tanker becomes a Tanker worth the name.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Salt and wounds, as long as players persist with the viewpoint of 'tanks are rubbish coz it aint i4' they i'm going to continue to point out that its not true anymore.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you don't understand what we're saying...
Spad is saying that _now_ starting a tank and being able to properly tank(get the aggro first and keep it)it's not possible till you're completely SO'd up.
We're not saying'We want I3 power levels back.' it's more like 'We want to have an effective AT off the box like any other AT', because any other AT can do his job pretty much off the box, they all become more powerful in the late game but everyone can start doin his job right away: Blasters can already damge stuff more than anyone else, scrapper can damage stuff and are tougher than any other AT bar tankers, defenders can use buffs/debuffs and blast, controllers can control and buff/debuff while tankers start as low-damage tough scrappers and they're able to _tank_ in the mid-20s, while every other ATs becomes ace at his job with SOs a Tanker becomes a Tanker worth the name.
[/ QUOTE ]
So the tankers i have seen (including mine but not my invuln as i was new then) herding up and holding aggro as of lvl 6 were completely imaginary...ok.
It takes knowledge, team coordination (communication and cooperation) NO DEBT at lvl 6 hell yeah take risks!. If the tanker is the only one with the aggro the rest of the team can give the tanker back up insps. The tanker only has to prove themself and ask.
No Guidebook.This i see is the main problem.
I dont see a guidebook for the new person to buy along with the game from the shop. That i see as the main problem and you get PuG teams being less effective than they can actually be, even ones outstanding player mates could be as less effective as they could actually be. Some people choose to be more soloable than team orientated.
There is a lvl 47 tanker out there 4 slotting acrobatics for endurance and he swears by it. I have seen a lvl 41 tanker with his hands over his ears because he is mezzed. Does anyone know how the people they play with slot etc? So many people dont look to the forum for help and there is no "complete guide". This is the problem. In the early stages often builds are never right and the best playstyle isnt there because people are new. New people are simply new and noobs are constantly careless or uncooperative.
Tankers are now even more reliant on other peoples builds and playstyle being good and teams being more balanced. A half decent guide can go along way on helping everyone build well and play well. For now as most people may do i find people i play best with and continue to team with them.
On an even level balanced team (1 of each AT) with everyone taking their primaries asap and correctly slotting, plus proper teamwork a tanker has a great chance of doing the job.
I doubt a complete guide can ever be made. If we want to make the most of the teams we got we simply have to ask people to communicate, cooperate, learn from eachother, do our best not to mess things up for eachother and learn from mistakes. I dont doubt that a half decent guide could go along way to putting things right.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Sure you can tank at Lv6, but you sure as hell can't do it without supporting buffs and debuffs. Personally, I really don't like having to rely on the rest of my team to keep me alive, especially in PuGs and *especially* at lower levels.
All the other ATs can be self-sufficient in a team from the get go. Sure, if you're careless with aggro you end up dead, but that's always been the case. Tankers, on the other hand, simply don't have the defences pre-SOs and certainly pre-DOs to be able to take on a full spawn of most villain groups (varying by powerset) for the duration it takes for the rest of the team to take them down, without direct support.
I get it, Tankers are screwed from the outset - if you make them able to do their job in teams without defenders/controllers being mandatory, then they're overpowered solo - but there have been endless solutions to this problem suggested by players both here and in the US.
Omnes relinquite spes, o vos intrantes
My Characters
CoX Chatlog Parser
Last.fm Feed
a.) I have used the term herding when I meant the gathering one mob spawn, I guess i have been wrong, this is why I hate terminology. Everybody can read it the way they want.
b.) You seem to persist on preaching to me what I should be enjoying. Sorry for me believing it should be my decision.
c.) I do not want god-mode.
Read my words wrong if you insist, I dont care anymore.
EDIT: Congrats Gonk for being the first person I have ever globally ignored. Good bye.
Well, to be perfectly honest I like my tanks to be up front and soaking up a fair bit of damage, but they don't have to hold ALL the aggro, because the blasters and scrappers should be taking on their targets as well and if those AT's don't take aggro away from the tank, then they're not doing enough damage!
Only time I get disappointed is with bossy tanks who insist that their way is the correct way. After all, I'm a mind controller and a lot of my moves don't prompt aggro so I should unleash them and let them do their work before everything goes to hell.
If you're going to have a Tank in any team, they will still require a good healer in their midst. They will also require a bit of time to hold the mob first before the rest charge in.
In my mind an experienced tanker, would speak to his team and tell them what he intends to do. They would have Taunt with at least 1xRechgRedux & 1xTauntDur to control mobs. They won't over-do their offensive capabilities. They shouldn't be lazy in the sense that once they have a mob taunted that they stay in that mob.
With Earth I have hurdle, ideal for jumping out of the mob and to a nearby foe who my taunt has missed and after a team mate. One Haymaker/KO Blow later their focus is on me and I jump straight back into the large concentration of enemies.
As long as your Tank is properly taunting, all you'll need is to keep his health in check and ensure no-one does anything too rash. Scrappers take on loose ends (ie: distracted mobs). Everyone else keep that distance to ensure they have a good chance of getting away, only coming into melee range if completely neccessary.
Overall, I think it's good for people to have low expectations on Tanks...this will stop them from letting their guard down and becoming complacent. If everyone focuses on what your hero should be doing, then needless deaths will be rare.
@Captain Solaris
Guild of Extreme Heroes "Strength is in Unity"
[ QUOTE ]
Sure you can tank at Lv6, but you sure as hell can't do it without supporting buffs and debuffs. Personally, I really don't like having to rely on the rest of my team to keep me alive, especially in PuGs and *especially* at lower levels.
[/ QUOTE ]
After thinking about this it worries me because I can technically tank with a fire/dev blaster, if you have a good buffer/debuffer then I could just throw down caltrops, throw a fireball and then hide behind something. When they all rush on the caltrops they will bunch up, surely this is anyone's description of herding? I throw in fire breath and more balls and the groups dead...
[ QUOTE ]
Sure you can tank at Lv6, but you sure as hell can't do it without supporting buffs and debuffs. Personally, I really don't like having to rely on the rest of my team to keep me alive, especially in PuGs and *especially* at lower levels.
[/ QUOTE ]
PuGs at lower levels can be especially untrustworthy through the way they play and how they build. Thats quite probably why people who arent new to the game and have 3 * 50's who get the whole tanking thing yet still dont look to start tanking asap and leave it till they get DO's or SO's. They find with no doubt in my mind that damage is king for them and get more secondaries over taunt and aura especially for when they have to solo.
I have a seen lvl 12 tank with an already messed up build (no heal no status protection) in teams expected to go in first and do so, they dont do well and then say "you cant tank at low level".
If i cant trust a team to cooperate, to not make pulls i am not prepared for (i like to pull especially to certain map areas), or not cause in mission greifing by knocking foes into the next group (so i often herd away to be sure now), basically if they dont help me to help them they are not a team worth my time as thats what i look for out of the game - teamwork. I'll go play with another team, failing that another toon.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
So the tankers i have seen (including mine but not my invuln as i was new then) herding up and holding aggro as of lvl 6 were completely imaginary...ok.
[/ QUOTE ]
No doubt you have the chance to do so, but you HAVE to be experienced and MUST have a proper team support, even with knowledge on how to tank if the team isn't workin perfectly towards keeping you alive you won't survive 10 seconds.
In a PuG as a new player you can't possibly hope to grab aggro and act as a tank at level 6. Fact.
You said that you've seen tankers getting mezzed at lvl 41 and you hope they could tank at lvl 6?
Before SOs as a tank you need complete team support to tank even for a 3-4 man team, because if you try to tank and the team isn't helping or everyone is doin feck all you'll be just another stain on the floor.
You can indeed start tanking soon, but with other experienced player in your team, that know what their powers do, know how you play, know what 'tanking' is like and what to do if you try to.
In a PuG where you see Defenders with 4 blasts and 3 pool attacks, controllers with all the pool powers they can pick and when everyone thinks that Defender = H3410rZ how can you possibly hope to tank and survive?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So the tankers i have seen (including mine but not my invuln as i was new then) herding up and holding aggro as of lvl 6 were completely imaginary...ok.
[/ QUOTE ]
No doubt you have the chance to do so, but you HAVE to be experienced and MUST have a proper team support, even with knowledge on how to tank if the team isn't workin perfectly towards keeping you alive you won't survive 10 seconds.
[/ QUOTE ]
agreed but please read what i actually said again
[ QUOTE ]
so the tankers i have seen (including mine but not my invuln as i was new then) herding up and holding aggro as of lvl 6 were completely imaginary...ok.
It takes knowledge, team coordination (communication and cooperation)
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a PuG as a new player you can't possibly hope to grab aggro and act as a tank at level 6. Fact.
[/ QUOTE ]
When you dont have much knowledge what could you do with?
A guide. My whole point.
[ QUOTE ]
You said that you've seen tankers getting mezzed at lvl 41 and you hope they could tank at lvl 6?
[/ QUOTE ]
That tanker didnt have unyielding at lvl 41 thats my whole point. Why even take armours if your going to be the most easily detoggled person in the team? He must either lack knowledge about his build or messed his respec. I have seen lvl 48 tankers with no dull pain, no dull pain omg that does go towards having limitations but thats more easily explained away as a concept build.
[ QUOTE ]
Before SOs as a tank you need complete team support to tank even for a 3-4 man team, because if you try to tank and the team isn't helping or everyone is doin feck all you'll be just another stain on the floor.
[/ QUOTE ]
and most likely most people would say "these guys aint worth tanking for" - quit team.
[ QUOTE ]
You can indeed start tanking soon, but with other experienced player in your team, that know what their powers do, know how you play, know what 'tanking' is like and what to do if you try to.
[/ QUOTE ]
Some PuGs pre 20's are cooperative .I've said I've estimated about 50% from my experience. Watching a tanker go right ahead and tank at lvl 6 the frostfire mission "a bit" like it was a lvl 50 mission is to some people a pleasure to watch and great for them to be a part of.
[ QUOTE ]
In a PuG where you see Defenders with 4 blasts and 3 pool attacks, controllers with all the pool powers they can pick and when everyone thinks that Defender = H3410rZ how can you possibly hope to tank and survive?
[/ QUOTE ]
Now there you cant and believe me I know lol, I know, I know. I have only stayed on one team despite not being the type of people i prefer to team with or them having the type of builds i'd hope for. Where the the empath powers only included heal aura and resurrect (sick-minded 
).
I have said a guide that people can buy from the shop and learn from could make a difference. Some of the problems can be ironed out by making a balanced team for yourself, dont look for one, make one, kick the one making life hard for everyone by in mission griefing, dont do futile recoveries, tell people to fallback so mobs reset and save the hospital run. Then tank on your terms.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
I was going to write a guide for tanking but while doing research I found this...
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...part=1#2925504
OK it might be a little out of date but it more or less sums up everything I was going to say. Though I may still write a mini guide on tactics since new tanks don't seam to know how to do simple things like corner pull.
[/ QUOTE ]
thats a pretty class guide. you're right though a few things need changing mostly on the squishy factor but up till he starts on the specs for tanking its a real gem.
@ExtraGonk