Query: Gender Differences
The first thing I'd say is, don't treat your character as a gender. Treat them as a person. Every single person is different, and trying to ascribe to stereotypes will make your character seem false and hollow. Don't think "how is she treated?" Think, "what kind of person is she, how does she present herself? How do those around her view her? What kind of people are they?"
You'll find that the best writers don't tend to try and define their characters by such things as "male" "female" "blonde" "brunette." They're defined by characteristics.
If you want your character to be treated a certain way, go for it. But don't have her treated badly because she's a woman . Have her treated badly because her boss is a jerk , or because she's insecure and can't assert herself.
See what I mean?
Oh, I see where you're coming from, completely. However, there's always going to be a gender bias in any world. Whilst I treat my characters as individuals, that doesn't mean that other characters in the story are going to.
Take the Internet. Would any guy get caught getting an A/S/L message? Maybe if they're pretending to be a girl in a chatroom. Something I've found is that women are generally treated as sex objects, little more, little less, and that's something I want to try to get across, without being too preachy about it, or, as you say, stereotyping it. It not being something I've been a part of, I need some input.
A lot of the times in Paragon, whenever I've played, I've never seen someone say 'You can't play because you're a girl', or anything so sexist. I have, however, noticed a trend for people...particularly the newer players, aim to get female Heroes in their team, whether the player is female or not. What I'm trying to get behind is how that feels for a female character...again, whether the player is female or not. Is it unwanted? Embarrassing? Do they petition? What're the emotions behind the actions they take?
Just to clarify (as your second post confused me slightly), are you wanting to know how the character feels? Or how the player feels?
i.e. Stasis' feelings, or my feelings?
Really though, it all depends on your character's personality. She's not going to be affected by stereotypes either way if she's a strong-willed woman. Contrary to that, if she's a feminist, she may take more offence. It's really up to the character--assuming, of course, that you want to know the character's reaction rather than the person-behind-the-character.
I really don't think you can use the treatment of female toons in CoH as a basis for how to model treatment of adult women in a fictional setting. Most of the people who'll want to ogle female toons are going to be teenagers, not adult characters in adult situations.
You seem to be drawing a rather large influence from how you view the perception of women on the internet. The internet allows for anonymity, which breeds ignorance and allows for the expression of very base negative feelings without the danger of reproach.
Do some research, watch some TV shows or movies based in the kind of working environment in which you want to set your story.
You stress that you want to treat your characters as individuals, but that the other characters may not. That's fine. But give a reason for this kind of treatment, thematically, and structurally, beyond "she's a woman." Even gender bias and sexual discrimination has some other foundation than a simple feeling that women are inferior.
A man in an authority position over her who takes issue with her, which can be depicted as gender bias, may feel threatened by her ability, and unable to face that, so he expresses it as a sexual bias. He may be a very dominant, forceful figure, and not broker any challenge to his authority. Maybe it was his father who was the authority figure in his youth, not his mother, and so he learned to associate the male gender with control and authority.
There also doesn't -have- to be gender bias. Not every person needs to be a victim of something to be an interesting character.
Sorry, I was taking each post one at time, but I just set my bedroom on fire, so I had to come downstairs. Don't smoke, kids! (Well, alright, it was a few embers in the bin, but the smoke was horrendous)
So, I'm going to take Stas' and Word's together.
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Just to clarify (as your second post confused me slightly), are you wanting to know how the character feels? Or how the player feels?
i.e. Stasis' feelings, or my feelings?
Really though, it all depends on your character's personality. She's not going to be affected by stereotypes either way if she's a strong-willed woman. Contrary to that, if she's a feminist, she may take more offence. It's really up to the character--assuming, of course, that you want to know the character's reaction rather than the person-behind-the-character.
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Stasis, I can see where you'd be confused. However, let me confuse you more. There aren't any "players" in my story, just the characters, however, I want to get a well rounded idea, from both sides of the story; i.e male players who play as female characters (how do guys cope with being considered female, being hit on, whatever) and female players who play as female characters.
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Word, your post is pretty long, and I can't take each paragraph at a time. However, I totally get where you're coming from, and on the whole, I appreciate your comments. I'll take what you said on board. Thanks!
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There aren't any "players" in my story, just the characters
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i.e male players who play as female characters (how do guys cope with being considered female, being hit on, whatever) and female players who play as female characters.
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See, this is where we come into confusion. You talk about not having players in the story, then ask about players reactions when getting hit on, and this normally happens out of character and not in a RP/story enviroment.
More on this after I have dinner. Pancakes!
Happy to help, Fire_Guardian.
As regards getting hit on, and my own feelings when it's happened, do you mean IC or OOC? As in, male players who are actually trying to chat up players of female toons, assuming they're female in real life?
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See, this is where we come into confusion. You talk about not having players in the story, then ask about players reactions when getting hit on, and this normally happens out of character and not in a RP/story enviroment.
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Yes, but I'm a big bowl of crazy. However, seperating the player from the character isn't always as easy as, say, water and oil. IME, unless there's a set character someone is roleplaying with a pre-set personality (I've got a long, distinguished history with the people fom WBS, and watching 50 people pretending to be Han Solo? Fun!) the character and the player will always have some intermixing. Also...you don't RP relationships? Awww.
Sorry if I'm confusing you guys more. Blame the person who pawned me off onto you.
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More on this after I have dinner. Pancakes!
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Don't abandon your people in their hour of need! Oh, wait. Pancakes? Banana and chocolate chip!
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As regards getting hit on, and my own feelings when it's happened, do you mean IC or OOC? As in, male players who are actually trying to chat up players of female toons, assuming they're female in real life?
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Well, getting hit on was just an example. As, stereotypically, guys hit on girls (which, as many women would tell you, is far from the truth) just as girls shouldn't be, also for example, Super Strong, leaders in the environment, and all the old [censored] that has no place in the world, yet we still see.
My own experience with being hit on whilst playing a female character vary with the character, some have been offended, one was embarrassed and at least two were flattered.
My personal feelings were along the lines of 'hey, its a game' and nothing else, really.
But when I play the character, I try to emphathise with how the character would feel in a given situation and play their emotions rather than my own.
I try and establish a base personality for my characters and work from that. It seems to help me, hope it helps you
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Also...you don't RP relationships? Awww.
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When did I say that? So far, I have running RP IC relationships with six other players.
Look, you mentioned about players being hit on and their reactions, without distinguishing whether this is RP, or some random character coming up to you and going "lol ur sexy olol asl?"
So, to make it clear. Are you looking for in character perspectives, or out of character (player) perspectives?
Also, what is this female character you are writing about like? If we have a personality profile of them, then we can give experiences from similar characters of our own that would be more appropriate.
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I try and establish a base personality for my characters and work from that. It seems to help me, hope it helps you
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Well, the character in question is a former homicide detective who was pretty Anti-Hero, seeing them as leaving "the little people" behind to fight a larger evil. Maybe necessary in the long run, but still hurts ordinary citizens. However, since she got her powers, she's had to adjust her beliefs as she gets accustomed to 'the other side'. Another thing is that before, she was...'plain', but the reconstructive surgery she had (she was badly beaten and left for dead) left her more 'attractive', so she has to get used to guys chatting her up.
edit: Written before Z asked for it, too. I'm just that good.
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However, seperating the player from the character isn't always as easy as, say, water and oil. IME, unless there's a set character someone is roleplaying with a pre-set personality
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I personally have no trouble at all seperating myself from my characters. I do empathise very strongly with them, and don't like bad things happening to them. But I know that what's IC stays IC, and bears no reflection on myself or other players as people. At least, it shouldn't.
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Also...you don't RP relationships? Awww.
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Where'd you figure that from? None of us made any comment about RPing relationships. I personally very much enjoy when relationships between characters develop.
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Well, getting hit on was just an example. As, stereotypically, guys hit on girls (which, as many women would tell you, is far from the truth) just as girls shouldn't be, also for example, Super Strong, leaders in the environment, and all the old [censored] that has no place in the world, yet we still see.
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So...what are you asking about, then?
Ok, as I'm still rather lost here, I'm going to give examples of both a character and a player's reaction (mine, at least):
No matter which of my character's I'm playing, if I'm hit on while playing, I either a). won't react, or b). "jokingly" tell them I'm a man. This may seem cruel, but I play Co* to have fun, not to flirt endlessly with random strangers. (everyone who knows how Weasel and I met, keep schtum - that's not my point ).
However, if I was in a strictly roleplay area, i.e. GG, the character I was playing would influence my responses. For instance, Stasis, who's rather self conscious, would attack rather than feel flattered. Vainglory, on the other hand, would expect to be hit on, constantly, by men, women, robots, animals, regardless of their gender preference.
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I personally have no trouble at all seperating myself from my characters. I do empathise very strongly with them, and don't like bad things happening to them. But I know that what's IC stays IC, and bears no reflection on myself or other players as people. At least, it shouldn't.
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You're right, it shouldn't. However, I've seen a lot of OOC friendships be broken over RP opinions, where the RPer in question has shared those beliefs with their character. Were I to RP, I'd probably try something as different from me as possible, because then, it'd be a challenge, and might teach me something about myself. However, due to the elitist actions and opinions held by the RPers I know (And, I'd like to stress, I'm not including anyone from CoX in that - hell, if I'd have asked any of the RPers I've met in the past 12 years the questions I've asked you guys, I would have been met by a week of silence followed by a resounding 'shut up, BK') I've made a conscious decision to not RP. However, you guys are changing my thoughts on RPers. Anyway, I'm getting OT.
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So...what are you asking about, then?
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Basically, I'd like to know absolutely everything there is to know about female superheroes, and how they'd act in varying situations. An impossible task, since they'd all act differently, but you have to try, right?
no, you can run off and hide, it's realyl very easy, and you can't really fail, or scuceed... i might have to rethink this whole idea.
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Basically, I'd like to know absolutely everything there is to know about female superheroes, and how they'd act in varying situations.
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Read comics.
Obvious answer, but what you're asking sounds like you want all your work done for you. You've given no indication of having researched this up to now. Have you actually written fiction of any kind before?
There's an old saying that you should "write what you know." If you don't know, find out. Read, watch TV, find existing material to work from.
If you have questions, by all means ask them. But asking for us to tell you "everything" is either a poor choice of words, or just plain lazy.
Incidentally, is there a reason your character is more attractive after her surgery? In Knight Rider, the main character is shot in the face in the pilot, and the people who save him give him a new face and identity to protect him. From what you've said up to this, it seems that the only reason you have to have her injured and made more attractive is an excuse to have guys hit on her. I assume she looks significantly different after her surgery?
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Basically, I'd like to know absolutely everything there is to know about female superheroes, and how they'd act in varying situations.
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My female toons used to outnumber the male ones. I still have one relatively active female character (in a relationship with one of Wordy's male toons, btw), one I bring out for light relief, and a female villain. They all act according to how I feel they should act and aside from applying some stereotypes that tend to be relatively accurate (Anna will go all gogo over babies, men tend to forget a lot of women are like that), I play them as people, not women.
In general, I think the fact is heroines don't get treated much differently then heroes. At face value, a hero is defined by their powers rather than what's behind them. Now, female heroes probably get more attention from male civvies. They often wear skimpy outfits, or at least skin-tight ones, that tends to have certain effects on visually inclined males (i.e. most of them). However, I'd imagine a lot of male heroes get 'hero worship' along the same lines as boy band members, so it's swings and roundabouts.
About the only thing I'd say is, don't make her a lesbian, it's getting very tired.
As for being hit on OOC, yep, had that in beta. My defender tryout was (is) my 'light relief' character in live. She's short, blonde, wears a little white dress and thigh boots and, since she's pre-slider, she's stacked. A guy I was teaming with came on to her and I took it IC. Eventually, he asked OOC what sex I was, and was a little dissapointed when he found out I was a guy. (Then he found out the six-foot female who'd joined the team was not only a guy, but batted for the home team, so to speak (stupid filter).) I don't mind anyone hitting on my toons, as long as they keep it IC.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
Probably a base starting point is that all humans think the same. Really. They do. The one thing that really changes, mostly, through the genders is their perception of things.
Male perceptions tend to focus along Strengths, Weaknesses, External Stimulus.
Female perceptions tend to focus along Aesthetics, Pecking Order and Internal Stimuli.
(Not to say one can't look at the other, but the base tends to be that.)
Add in the Social Pressures on them (Women need to be Waiflike, Bigbreasted and Giggly; Men need to be Tall, Dark and Handsome). Similar Heirarchy works in the Homosexual Community.
In very broad strokes...
Men look to Attack their Enemies, Defend their Friends and Enjoy experiencing activities.
Women look to Disprove their Enemies, Improve their Friends and Enjoy experiences.
In 'being hit on'
Men tend to go "YES!" or "ARGH!"
Women tend to go "At last!" or "As if!"
There are obvious exceptions to these rules, but it's a framework to think from.
I'm sure I'll get arguments on this, but that's my view, and people I've played with have enjoyed the characters.
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Basically, I'd like to know absolutely everything there is to know about female superheroes, and how they'd act in varying situations.
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Read comics.
Obvious answer, but what you're asking sounds like you want all your work done for you. You've given no indication of having researched this up to now. Have you actually written fiction of any kind before?
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Well, on top of my regular job, I work as the creative director for a local theatre company, and write scripts that mean I...y'know...get to eat real food, as opposed to live on sandwiches. Does that count?
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There's an old saying that you should "write what you know." If you don't know, find out. Read, watch TV, find existing material to work from.
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Write what I know. Well, that's kind of the point. You see, I don't actually know what it's like to be a woman. Funny, that.
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If you have questions, by all means ask them. But asking for us to tell you "everything" is either a poor choice of words, or just plain lazy.
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Or, option 3, a joking response. I've said, more than once, what I'm looking for, and what I hope to gain, and I've gotten some good responses, especially from you. However, continuously asking me the same question over and over again does nothing but leave me frustrated, and try to find different ways of saying it. Maybe it isn't that I've phrased it poorly, but that you just don't grasp what it is I'm looking for? If you don't, that's fine. From other answers you've given, you've given me things to work with. But pushing the questioning when there's no point is kind of irritating for me to try to answer, and you'll get irritated with me, in return, for not phrasing it the precise way you like.
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Incidentally, is there a reason your character is more attractive after her surgery? In Knight Rider, the main character is shot in the face in the pilot, and the people who save him give him a new face and identity to protect him. From what you've said up to this, it seems that the only reason you have to have her injured and made more attractive is an excuse to have guys hit on her. I assume she looks significantly different after her surgery?
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See, that's just it. She isn't more attractive just to be attractive. It's a by-product, a symbol of the fact she's been, for wont of a better phrase, "reborn" as a superhero, with her life turned upside down, and she's going to experience things she never has done before. It's going to be the entire thing she clings to - that her life is completely different. I see now that 'being hit on' was the totally wrong example to give, but that's all it was. An example. As a homicide detective, this character's going to be 'asked' to leave the police force because of her new powers. She has to start out fresh, and won't be recognised by her friends, her family, or especially her enemies - much like, as you say, in the Knight Rider pilot, where Tanya, who shot Michael Long in the face, doesn't recognise Michael Knight up until the final act, when he says "It's not a starry night in Nevada, but it'll hurt just as much", when pointing a gun at her face, as she did to him.
I apologise for not phrasing my questions in the exact, precise way you like, Word. From now on, I'll be sure to not ask anything.
My main RP character is a woman, and she does get hit on from time to time. OOCly I often think it rather amusing to be honest, but I've never yet had to break into OOC mode to tell them I'm a guy, mainly because I have an IC reason which works just as well; she's homosexual.
Now, there are a few reasons for this, the first being it was my wifes idea, and the second because it dodges around being chatted up, and thirdly because I think trying to view things from a totally different lifestyle to your own kinda helps you grow as a person.
I also deliberately made my toons' physical attributes as minimal as possible, to cut out the oggling from 14 year old boys going "OMGZ, j00 is st4ck3d!". As it turned out, my toon has ended up in two relationships, the first started as an infatuation which ended in a vampires bite and her becoming a 'pet', the second, came about in some way as she was the one who 'saved' her from the first, but more as because that toon was always there when my toon needed support. I also OOC become really good friends with that toons player, who is also a guy btw. In fact I've made several good friends due to this game...
I've taken a little bit of stick in the past for my toon, not just because she's a lesbian, but also because she a catgirl and an alien hybrid. Pretty stereotypical really; but I've done my best to fill out her backstory to a rich history, even going back as far as her early teens for some of it, all of which is what makes her what she is today. She's an extremely complex character that's had a lot of grief in her life including homophobia, xenophobia and just plain hatred. She's even had a couple of people try to kill her, one of whom was her best friend, and came close to succeeding! All in all though, it's helped her grow and develop into as real a person as she can become. To me, she is at least as real as a character in a book or a TV show/movie.
And contrary to a lot of IC comments, she's NOT a tramp! Two relationship does not make a person a tramp!
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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I apologise for not phrasing my questions in the exact, precise way you like, Word. From now on, I'll be sure to not ask anything.
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Knowing Wordy, I think he'll agree with me when I say: "Don't let me stop you from asking"
It's just that you ask on a very wide subject.
Let me make an example, and a few silly assumption to illustrate a point...
Let's say you want to know how... "Triangles relate to squares", but as you don't want to miss anything that's usefull, you ask: "how does geometry work"
I think that every time Wordy asked you what you were asking, he was asking you to narrow it down so he could give a direct and concrete answer, rather than a general one.
Because of my main character and her physical dimensions, I've been chat up, both IC and OOC.
The IC I didn't mind and found fun untill they got pushy, and the same goes for OOC, really...
The guy that tried to chat me up, was a sales rep, and went all over the country and abroad, practacly saying he'd be in my area sometime soon and asked if he could drop by... a bridge too far.
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.
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Hey, guys.
Something I'm knocking about on for my new story involves a female character relating, in flashback, the changes she went through when she became Super. Not the physical changes, but rather, the psychological. Not being a female myself (at least, last time I checked) I don't have much experience in the differences between how men and women are seen in a workplace, or social setting. I listen to female co-workers all the time, complaining about how differently they're treated, but they're all whiners anyway, and I can't take what they say at face value.
My question is this: How is a female Superhero treated, in comparison with their male counterpart?
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One thing you may want to consider is that she is a super.
I suspect in RL that this fact would outway the majority of peoples perceptions/prejudices of her being female in favour of those they hold about her being a super.
So the fact that she is female is, while not ignored, somewhat lessened.
Hey, guys.
Something I'm knocking about on for my new story involves a female character relating, in flashback, the changes she went through when she became Super. Not the physical changes, but rather, the psychological. Not being a female myself (at least, last time I checked) I don't have much experience in the differences between how men and women are seen in a workplace, or social setting. I listen to female co-workers all the time, complaining about how differently they're treated, but they're all whiners anyway, and I can't take what they say at face value.
My question is this: How is a female Superhero treated, in comparison with their male counterpart?