I mean the entire AE is a simulation, that's how it's explained in the game. Which means yes, every single arc is a simulation, even those that present themselves as "real". That's how I see it.
Erm.
Sorry, but AE arcs are all simulations. Period.
Doesn't matter whether you pretend they're real or whether the author writes that they're real; lore-wise, every single one of them is a simulation.
Sure, it's nice to act like they're actual missions given by actual contacts, but that doesn't mean they are.
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Erm.
Sorry, but AE arcs are all simulations. Period.
Doesn't matter whether you pretend they're real or whether the author writes that they're real; lore-wise, every single one of them is a simulation.
Sure, it's nice to act like they're actual missions given by actual contacts, but that doesn't mean they are.
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Yeah and the whole "AE is all a video game" is a cop-out to explain how all the various arcs people create within the canon world can contradict each other. It was my understanding that the general consensus is that arcs are to be treated as if they were "real" unless they are obviously set outside the CoH multiverse, flagged "non-canon" or the dialogue indicates that the arc is a simulation.
Treating everything as "just a simulation" when many arcs could easily fit into the game world lessens the impact of those arcs, IMO.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
[ QUOTE ]
Treating everything as "just a simulation" when many arcs could easily fit into the game world lessens the impact of those arcs, IMO.
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I understand that, and you're free to look at them that way if you want. Two of my three arcs fit into canon, or so I like to think. But canon also describes every single arc in the AE as a simulation. So that can't really be called a cop-out, because according to canon of the game itself, it's the truth.
Canonically, every arc is non-canon.
Yeah and the whole "AE is all a video game" is a cop-out to explain how all the various arcs people create within the canon world can contradict each other. It was my understanding that the general consensus is that arcs are to be treated as if they were "real" unless they are obviously set outside the CoH multiverse, flagged "non-canon" or the dialogue indicates that the arc is a simulation.
That's pretty much how I see it. Unless the arc expressly sets itself outside canon it is to be taken as if it were a "standard" mission arc. Whether or not it "actually" is doesn't matter.
Otherwise any inconsistencies in the setting can be handwaved with "it's just a simulation".
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Otherwise any inconsistencies in the setting can be handwaved with "it's just a simulation".
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Well I do agree that it shouldn't be used as a blanket excuse for any and all inconsistencies, I'm just saying the reverse is also true: it shouldn't be automatically dismissed as an invalid reason for everything.
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Treating everything as "just a simulation" when many arcs could easily fit into the game world lessens the impact of those arcs, IMO.
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I understand that, and you're free to look at them that way if you want. Two of my three arcs fit into canon, or so I like to think. But canon also describes every single arc in the AE as a simulation. So that can't really be called a cop-out, because according to canon of the game itself, it's the truth.
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Yes, it is a simulation, because it has to be. There is an unspoken contract between the author and audience though, in many cases, that we will treat the simulated mission as a real mission. If the arc says the bad guys are hiding out in an office building in Steel Canyon, we will pretend we're going to an office building in Steel Canyon...not a datastream in Kings Row.
However you want to look at it, "it's just a simulation" is not an excuse for sloppy storytelling.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Someone said that responding to some criticism with, "it's a simulation" was a dodge, but it's not at all (depending on the criticism, of course) It is considered a simulation.
It is not considered a simulation. The souvenir is no different from any other "normal" arc's souvenir.
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Inasmuch as the souvenirs are separate from "normal" arc souvenirs and can be deleted if you object to their content or to your character having been involved in the story, they are quite different.
The introduction to AE stipulates that although everything accessed through the system is in fact a virtual reality, it's nevertheless reality in the sense that the character exiting the datastream isn't the same as the one who entered.
So, yes, it's a simulation; but at the same time, characters are transformed by the experience.
Also, kills made in AE don't count toward Defeat badges. Other achievements in AE don't count toward the appropriate Achievement badges.
That's consistent with an interpretation that they aren't actual achievements and defeats.
However I do agree that a story told in AE should be internally consistent as if it were real, and externally consistent as applicable; and that the "just a simulation" argument used to obfuscate mistakes or inconsistencies is a bogus copout.
Well said Chaos.
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Treating everything as "just a simulation" when many arcs could easily fit into the game world lessens the impact of those arcs, IMO.
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Nor should it be used as an excuse for bad writing. As far as I'm concerned, it's to be taken as canon unless explicitly said not to be. Even the souvenir for this arc gives the impression that it was meant to have actually happened.
Of course you're free to take what you want as canon. I myself don't accept the whole Origin of Powers thing as canon since it contradicts so many things and cheapens many of the origins by trying to say that they're all really caused by magic, even the Tech and Natural ones.
Does it? I have to admit I never actually read the dialog. The only reason I run the arc is to clear out that contact from my active contacts list (I've become sort of OCD that way).
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
Hero Version
Villain Version
Each person you speak to tells you a short story, unless you're the same origin as them then which they'll tell you a lot more. Overall when you look over all of the extended stories they all imply that every origin owes it's existence to magic.
What a crock.
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Of course you're free to take what you want as canon. I myself don't accept the whole Origin of Powers thing as canon since it contradicts so many things and cheapens many of the origins by trying to say that they're all really caused by magic, even the Tech and Natural ones.
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I always felt that it stated that they were tied by Fate. Which could be magic, although, if it existed, most would consider it a fundamental natural part of the universe.
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Hero Version
Villain Version
Each person you speak to tells you a short story, unless you're the same origin as them then which they'll tell you a lot more. Overall when you look over all of the extended stories they all imply that every origin owes it's existence to magic.
What a crock.
[/ QUOTE ]
I basically took the whole thing as "none of these people know what they're talking about," after the mutant contact flat out invalidated some people's concepts with the whole "no mutants before they split the atom" garbage.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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So, yes, it's a simulation; but at the same time, characters are transformed by the experience.
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I consider the AE to be by default not real in the sense that the activity does not take place within the same consensus reality of the prime game world, but real in the sense that the events actually happen. Essentially, its a cross between the holodeck and the matrix. However, this question is slightly slippery: for example, instanced missions are an example of the curious case of the game asserting that something is real but *not* part of consensus reality. You're not supposed to think about that too closely, and I suspect the mechanics of the AE fall into similar territory.
I say by default because I consider it perfectly valid and give full latitude for AE authors to override this assumption in (at least) one of three ways:
1. Write the arc as if it were actually real, ignoring the AE mechanics backstory entirely, with the same basic handwave that the actual game uses to assert that all instances of all instanced missions are real and canon, even if they are cross-contradictory.
2. Write the arc acknowledging the AE backstory, but claiming its somehow false or misinformation.
3. Write the arc extending the AE backstory to suggest that the underlying mechanics of its operation are functionally equivalent to creating an alternate reality/dimension/universe.
I also don't need to be explicitly told which of these the author is assuming, so long as its reasonably obvious that one of them is most applicable to the arc.
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for example, instanced missions are an example of the curious case of the game asserting that something is real but *not* part of consensus reality.
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Like multiple teams, or even the same team, defeating the Clockwork King for the last time multiple times in the same day.
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Hero Version
Villain Version
Each person you speak to tells you a short story, unless you're the same origin as them then which they'll tell you a lot more. Overall when you look over all of the extended stories they all imply that every origin owes it's existence to magic.
What a crock.
[/ QUOTE ]
I basically took the whole thing as "none of these people know what they're talking about," after the mutant contact flat out invalidated some people's concepts with the whole "no mutants before they split the atom" garbage.
[/ QUOTE ]Invalidate concepts? How about invalidating the entire theory of evolution? Kinda a big deal, especially since said theory is how mutants as a concept arose in the first place.
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Hero Version
Villain Version
Each person you speak to tells you a short story, unless you're the same origin as them then which they'll tell you a lot more. Overall when you look over all of the extended stories they all imply that every origin owes it's existence to magic.
What a crock.
[/ QUOTE ]
I basically took the whole thing as "none of these people know what they're talking about," after the mutant contact flat out invalidated some people's concepts with the whole "no mutants before they split the atom" garbage.
[/ QUOTE ]Invalidate concepts? How about invalidating the entire theory of evolution? Kinda a big deal, especially since said theory is how mutants as a concept arose in the first place.
[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on your definition of "mutant" I guess. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on this and assume they're only talking about the kind of mutation that gives you superpowers.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
[ QUOTE ]
Depends on your definition of "mutant" I guess. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on this and assume they're only talking about the kind of mutation that gives you superpowers.
[/ QUOTE ]So no aphids in the CoXverse? D:
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And this is why, in my opinion, MA will ultimately be nothing more than a PLing tool. Some people really need to take a step back and think about what CoH is. It's a game first and foremost so, the focus for each individual player is what is fun for them and them alone. To be honest, given how much time it takes to write a non-farm MA I'm surprised that any players write them at all. From a purely "in game" economic perspective there is really no reason to do so because you can earn tickets much faster from an MA farm anyway. Given this, the only reason a player would write one is for their friends and, hopefully, other players to enjoy. So, since CoH is about having fun, I would hazard a guess that most players would find negative reviews to fall pretty strongly into the "not fun" category. As a result, getting such negative reinforcement will probably stop your average player from bothering to write another MA in the future. This is why I believe that harsh and unconstructive reviewers (and threads like this) ultimately aren't doing MA any favors and, will ultimately just reduce the number of MA attempts at storytelling, leaving it a farmer's paradise.
The bottom line for me is that if you are looking for the next great American story, joining a writer's group is the way to go about it. Searching for it in a video game is like looking for tickets to the bus at the train station.
Jail.Bird
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^^^
haven't played the Arc in question, but I have to say, I find all the controversy fascinating. I saw this, and wanted to respond because the gist of the comment is that he doesn't understand WHY anyone would find creating an Arc 'fun'; and in a smaller sense intinates that if it was for the 'in game' awards (aka MA tickets) its quicker to just run arc and not write them.
I to date have written one arc (working on number two). It took me about 3 weeks to write it to where I thought it was first publishable (average 3 hours a night - and in addition to writing, I did a lot of testing too).
Personally, all that in itself was A LOT of fun because I was attempting t translate a story I'd created for the pen and paper RPG Villains & Vigilantes as a GM. I actually had to modify it a fair bit due to MA constraints, and one aspect was inprossible to do in the MA. That said, I was pretty happy with the end result, and honestly (ratings wise, it's held up pretty well - 4 star average; but I KNOW it's gotten one and two starred too; an some of those folks have commented and some haven't). BUT, for some (like me); being able to just create a story that I like; and have OTHER people I don't know decide to go and experience it (regardless of how they rate it in the end) is a big kick for me (YMMV).
I've also been around long enough to know (and my ego honestly isn't as fragile as some authors that I've seen who unfortunately fall apart at the first negative review; or believe that becuase the player missed/wasn't interested in looking at a Clue, or a piece of dialogue the author feels is SO important; that the player should not be allowed to rate the arc, etc.
A couple of things are just facts that have been known since peope first started letting creating stories for other people:
1) Some people will LOVE what you did and think it's the best thing ever.
2) Some people will be totally abivialent about yoyur work and not really care one way or the other.
3) Some people will HATE your work, and think it's th worst thing eever done, and don't understand why you could put it out for others to see/read/experience.
AND - If you somehow believe what you created is the EXCEPTION to the above, then you'll never be happy about your work; as nothing yet written has been immune to the above from the Bible to Shakesphere.
Also, no matter how much you believe you've made everything SO CRYSTAL CLEAR that there's only one 'right' way to interpret what you created; and EVERYONE who pays attention will see EXACTLY what you meant the way you meant it; it's just NOT the case.
Putting anything out for public consumption is a big risk; and if you don't expect, or cannot take criticism; or worse are unable to digest criticism and let the 'good' critiscism make you feel good; and acn't acknowledge the 'bad' criticism, when it has valid points; then perhaps you shouldn't hit that 'Publish' button until you or your friends want to run an arc; and then immediately unpublish it.
For me, I've managed to wade through the criticisms my Arc's received to date; and as a result of the critical criticism; I think I've managed to improve it in a variety of ways. Does that mean I expect it to become a 5 star HoF, or Dev Choice arc? Nope, I don't think it'll ever happen. But, I'm prretty happy with it as it stands; because it does tell the story I wanted; and does it in a way that most people can understand; and I do get some feeling of satisfaction from that.
^^^^
So, all that is why I am continuing to write MA arcs; and find the overall process enjoyable, and am glad this MMO allows me to do it.
YMMV. 
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Hero Version
Villain Version
Each person you speak to tells you a short story, unless you're the same origin as them then which they'll tell you a lot more. Overall when you look over all of the extended stories they all imply that every origin owes it's existence to magic.
What a crock.
[/ QUOTE ]
The only person who really implies it is Tarikoss, who is flat out wrong, anyhow. Probably lying, considering his Strike Force. If you do enough CoT arcs, both heroside and villainside, and that one Portal Corp mission heroside that has the dimension where the CoT were peaceful, you'll know that War Witch's explanation is the correct one.
The mutant thing is just flat out retarded, however. Isn't Sister Psyche like 80 years old or something? That would mean she was born before 1938. She also says "We're both mutants", "No mutant was born before 1938", and "I don't think of myself as a mutant". Which is it, lady?
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Yeah and the whole "AE is all a video game" is a cop-out to explain how all the various arcs people create within the canon world can contradict each other.
[/ QUOTE ]
Be that as it may, it's a canonical cop-out. The AE is a simulator, and what happens inside it isn't real.
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It was my understanding that the general consensus is that arcs are to be treated as if they were "real" unless they are obviously set outside the CoH multiverse, flagged "non-canon" or the dialogue indicates that the arc is a simulation.
[/ QUOTE ]
That may be the informal player consensus, but I see no reason to insist that any one mission writer has to abide by that.
If you accept AE as exactly what the canon says it is (a simulator) then what Blight does with your character is perfectly fair. You might not LIKE it, but no overt rules have been broken. I could write an arc in which the AE treated you as a sentient crystal-wielding megapony from the planet Squee, and it would still fit completely with what the AE is deemed to be.
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Treating everything as "just a simulation" when many arcs could easily fit into the game world lessens the impact of those arcs, IMO.
[/ QUOTE ]
We might like to think of the arcs as part of the canon, but it's been spelled out to us that they aren't. Hero 1:
'Stories picked as Dev Choice, will not become canon in our game. If and I mean IF that ever were to happen, it would have to be a pretty big deal.'
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I could write an arc in which the AE treated you as a sentient crystal-wielding megapony from the planet Squee
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I'd love to see a Venture review of that!
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I'd love to see a Venture review of that!
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It's not the same if you do it on purpose.
Someone said that responding to some criticism with, "it's a simulation" was a dodge, but it's not at all (depending on the criticism, of course) It is considered a simulation.
It is not considered a simulation. The souvenir is no different from any other "normal" arc's souvenir. The author's claim to the contrary here carries no weight in my book.
By contrast, consider my arc "Why We Fight", which is expressly cast as an interactive AE simulation.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"