a thread to discuss alternatives to "the grind"
By
Aces_High,
Posted on: 2009-07-19 18:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Wow. First reply and I'm going negative already...
There are a [very few] things that count as "puzzles" in this game. You can tell because players have been consistently and extensively complaining about them, and avoiding them, for five years straight. Ever get lost in the Perez maze? Ever look for a mission door that was "under the map?" Ever try to find your way to the center of the Abandoned Sewers?
... oh yeah. The playerbase treated those problems like bugs and developed workarounds.
Same with buying "power 10" enhancements. Same with unlockable stores. Same with missions where you had to travel to the end of a hazard zone, then travel through ANOTHER hazard zone (the old Rikti Crash Site). Same with talk-tos, patrol missions, tricky hunts. In fact, while this may sound bitter, the Architect Entertainment system does seem to give a lot of people what they want: travel six feet and have your critters served to you on a plate.
Matt Miller said something once to the effect of "Ten minutes after a puzzle is introduced into an MMO, there's a walkthrough on the web." It's very true.
I hope someone has a good idea... but I don't.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Wow. First reply and I'm going negative already...
There are a [very few] things that count as "puzzles" in this game. You can tell because players have been consistently and extensively complaining about them, and avoiding them, for five years straight. Ever get lost in the Perez maze? Ever look for a mission door that was "under the map?" Ever try to find your way to the center of the Abandoned Sewers?
... oh yeah. The playerbase treated those problems like bugs and developed workarounds.
Same with buying "power 10" enhancements. Same with unlockable stores. Same with missions where you had to travel to the end of a hazard zone, then travel through ANOTHER hazard zone (the old Rikti Crash Site). Same with talk-tos, patrol missions, tricky hunts. In fact, while this may sound bitter, the Architect Entertainment system does seem to give a lot of people what they want: travel six feet and have your critters served to you on a plate.
Matt Miller said something once to the effect of "Ten minutes after a puzzle is introduced into an MMO, there's a walkthrough on the web." It's very true.
I hope someone has a good idea... but I don't.
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great, no puzzles. what about the other ideas?
besides. everything you mentioned are examples of things that were either A: poorly implemented or B: just lame. also, those things are examples of things not ot repeat in the future. no?
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
Like how Hamidon Enhancements intended to buff self movement can also be used to enhance foe -movement powers, grinding for XP falls into the category of "by design." There are only two real options here: 1) Remove any substance from the game and let people get all the XP they want without grinding; 2) Leave it as it is, trying to make grinding more interesting.
To avoid the grind altogether, a name needs to be built from the ground up without being based on the idea of experience points. City of Heroes is not such a game.
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The playerbase treated those problems like bugs and developed workarounds.
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a walk around for poker? i wish.
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the Architect Entertainment system does seem to give a lot of people what they want: travel six feet and have your critters served to you on a plate.
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this is exactly what i was trying to "discuss alternatives" to. take critters out of the equation all together.
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I hope someone has a good idea... but I don't.
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not one other thing i mentioned in the OP was a good idea?
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
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Like how Hamidon Enhancements intended to buff self movement can also be used to enhance foe -movement powers, grinding for XP falls into the category of "by design." There are only two real options here: 1) Remove any substance from the game and let people get all the XP they want without grinding; 2) Leave it as it is, trying to make grinding more interesting.
To avoid the grind altogether, a name needs to be built from the ground up without being based on the idea of experience points. City of Heroes is not such a game.
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maybe i should have been clearer. no critters or experience need be involved. only infamy/influence, all origin enhancements, recipies, salvage, badges and costume pieces. in other words: rewards. i'm not talking about points A and points B. i'm talking about the stuff in between. i'm talking about rewards.
this could also aleviate some of the supply vs demand issues that a lot of people are experiencing currently too.
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
In my experience, all the other rewards come as a sort of by-product to grinding for XP. Whatever doesn't drop from enemies or mission completions you can generally purchase with merits, tickets, or inf on the market.
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maybe i should have been clearer. no critters or experience need be involved. only infamy/influence, all origin enhancements, recipies, salvage, badges and costume pieces. in other words: rewards.
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Is HELL NO clear enough for you? This is city of heroes, not city of gambling.
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this could also aleviate some of the supply vs demand issues that a lot of people are experiencing currently too.
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The only problem some people are having currently is that they are spending too much time powerleveling in the AE. If they actually played the game instead of constantly making a mad dash to level 50 they wouldn't have any problems getting whatever rewards they wanted.
It is ridiculously easy to make inf hand over fist in this game, and that same inf can be used to buy whatever rewards they want.
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There are a [very few] things that count as "puzzles" in this game. You can tell because players have been consistently and extensively complaining about them, and avoiding them, for five years straight. Ever get lost in the Perez maze.
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The Perez maze is complained about for numerous reasons:
- Non-visible openings (that space between two trees that looks like the space between every other pair of trees you can't go through? That's the opening,)
- No guidance, unless you're going to Vidiotmaps, and the biggie
- Mobs that often outlevel you on your way to mission doors inside the maze.... yet when you're sent there at 30+, the door's along the outer wall.
It's not disliked because "it's a puzzle," it's disliked because it's a badly designed deathtrap for the lowbies who get sent into it for missions.
I misunderstood, then.
I'd divide into three categories: Things that give XP, things that give non-XP rewards, and things that don't necessarily give XP, or rewards, but are fun anyway.
The pinball machines in Pocket D could be fun ,and if you set them up so other people can watch but not play until the game is over... keep track of high scores... may not be worth the dev-hours, but it could be fun.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
...why would I want to not kill things in this game?
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Is HELL NO clear enough for you? This is city of heroes, not city of gambling.
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also city of Villains . way to be constructive too 
.
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The only problem some people are having currently is that they are spending too much time powerleveling in the AE. If they actually played the game instead of constantly making a mad dash to level 50 they wouldn't have any problems getting whatever rewards they wanted.
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this thread wasn't meant to be an indictment, or a troll post. it was a thread intended to make a suggestion or two as to alternatives to the limited system we have now. options, immersion and a parity to real life are parameters that i was trying to adhear to.
i could speculate as to what a lot of "problems" are too. especially the seemingly sole intent of a lot of CoX forum posters to perpetually dwell on the negative. but that serves no decernable purpose in moving the game forward.
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
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I misunderstood, then.
I'd divide into three categories: Things that give XP, things that give non-XP rewards, and things that don't necessarily give XP, or rewards, but are fun anyway.
The pinball machines in Pocket D could be fun ,and if you set them up so other people can watch but not play until the game is over... keep track of high scores... may not be worth the dev-hours, but it could be fun.
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this.
great idea!
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
You're talking mini games within the game. Like you find within Pokemon or Final Fantasy. UO even has them. The chessboards and backgammon boards aren't just decoration, they work like everything else in the game.
I don't have any inherent problems with it. I don't even have any problems with "puzzle" games. Fulmens had a point, but it's not quite the same. The "puzzles" were always something in the way of the mission objective. That's different from the objective being the puzzle itself. Though I do agree that anything static will be posted on the internet within hours.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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...why would I want to not kill things in this game?
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the real question is: why does that have to be the only way to play?
take the ski chalet. fun, popular and different . of course if that were the only option, it to would get old real fast.
what else could be introduced to break the grind? a ferris wheel? a shooting gallery? a dunking booth?
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
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also city of Villains . way to be constructive too .
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No. CoV is the name of the first paid expansion. The game has always been City of Heroes.
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The only problem some people are having currently is that they are spending too much time powerleveling in the AE. If they actually played the game instead of constantly making a mad dash to level 50 they wouldn't have any problems getting whatever rewards they wanted.
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this thread wasn't meant to be an indictment, or a troll post. it was a thread intended to make a suggestion or two as to alternatives to the limited system we have now. options, immersion and a parity to real life are parameters that i was trying to adhear to.
i could speculate as to what a lot of "problems" are too. especially the seemingly sole intent of a lot of CoX forum posters to perpetually dwell on the negative. but that serves no decernable purpose in moving the game forward.
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I didn't say you were trolling, I merely explained that the reason some players are experiencing shortages is because of their preferred playstyle.
The "limitations" are not real. Even casual players have no problems aquiring whatever they want with just the slightest bit of effort.
Influence can be made hand over fist by selling drops that are aquired from regular missions.
Merits can be traded in for recipes that net millions.
AE tickets can also be traded in for salvage and recipes that net millions.
For those that prefer a farming playstyle the rewards can be earned even faster.
The only thing your idea would accomplish is to make it even easier for RMT sites to aquire things for them to sell to players.
So again I respectully say to you, HELL NO!
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also city of Villains . way to be constructive too .
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No. CoV is the name of the first paid expansion. The game has always been City of Heroes.
[ QUOTE ]
The only problem some people are having currently is that they are spending too much time powerleveling in the AE. If they actually played the game instead of constantly making a mad dash to level 50 they wouldn't have any problems getting whatever rewards they wanted.
[/ QUOTE ]
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this thread wasn't meant to be an indictment, or a troll post. it was a thread intended to make a suggestion or two as to alternatives to the limited system we have now. options, immersion and a parity to real life are parameters that i was trying to adhear to.
i could speculate as to what a lot of "problems" are too. especially the seemingly sole intent of a lot of CoX forum posters to perpetually dwell on the negative. but that serves no decernable purpose in moving the game forward.
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I didn't say you were trolling, I merely explained that the reason some players are experiencing shortages is because of their preferred playstyle.
The "limitations" are not real. Even casual players have no problems aquiring whatever they want with just the slightest bit of effort.
Influence can be made hand over fist by selling drops that are aquired from regular missions.
Merits can be traded in for recipes that net millions.
AE tickets can also be traded in for salvage and recipes that net millions.
For those that prefer a farming playstyle the rewards can be earned even faster.
The only thing your idea would accomplish is to make it even easier for RMT sites to aquire things for them to sell to players.
So again I respectully say to you, HELL NO!
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you have not added one constructive thing to this thread so far. just several more reasons that reinforce what i'm saying in my OP.
answer these questions: why do these things have to be the only option to obtain reward?
what would you suggest as an alternative to what we currently have? (see any of my other posts in this thread for reference)
this is not about rmt sites. this is not about the percieved failings of the player base.
to reiterate, this is about options and immersion.
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
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You're talking mini games within the game. Like you find within Pokemon or Final Fantasy. UO even has them. The chessboards and backgammon boards aren't just decoration, they work like everything else in the game.
I don't have any inherent problems with it. I don't even have any problems with "puzzle" games. Fulmens had a point, but it's not quite the same. The "puzzles" were always something in the way of the mission objective. That's different from the objective being the puzzle itself. Though I do agree that anything static will be posted on the internet within hours.
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this!
games within games.
chess and backgammon are great ideas. play vs another player, or the AI.
of course risk vs reward would be a factor. but that would be a discussion for another thread.
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
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I hope someone has a good idea... but I don't.
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play Grim Fandango?
because that kind of thing just doesn't work in the MMO environment. This isn't the genre to indulge your love of puzzles or mysteries or clever solutions.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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games within games.
chess and backgammon are great ideas. play vs another player, or the AI.
of course risk vs reward would be a factor. but that would be a discussion for another thread.
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Uh, no.
I want dev time put into building CoH, not inventing diversions from the game.
If you like backgammon or chess or poker or whatever, hit Yahoo Games. Heck, you could play CoH in a window and play Yahoo Checkers in a browser.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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play Grim Fandango?
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no.
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because that kind of thing just doesn't work in the MMO environment. This isn't the genre to indulge your love of puzzles or mysteries or clever solutions.
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because you think the players wont go for it? why?
everything negative that's currently been stated in this thread should be used as examples of what not to do.
do you have a suggestion nether, of something that could potentially work? given your experience you might have some helpful insight.
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
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games within games.
chess and backgammon are great ideas. play vs another player, or the AI.
of course risk vs reward would be a factor. but that would be a discussion for another thread.
[/ QUOTE ]
Uh, no.
I want dev time put into building CoH, not inventing diversions from the game.
If you like backgammon or chess or poker or whatever, hit Yahoo Games. Heck, you could play CoH in a window and play Yahoo Checkers in a browser.
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these things would build CoX. maybe chess and backgammon are bad ideas.
what about the monkey fight club? place a wager, if your monkey wins. you get an appropriate reward. or a shooting range. you pay for the target(s) and depending on your performance you could get a common IO recipe, or a SO, or a piece of common salvage.
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
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play Grim Fandango?
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no.
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Your loss.
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do you have a suggestion nether, of something that could potentially work? given your experience you might have some helpful insight.
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Yeah, if you want to play backgammon or Puzzle Pirates or whatever, play that. The structure of MMOs does not accommodate any style of gamplay other than 'the grind' in this or that form- performing actions to trigger various types of reward.
It's like trying to figure a way to make cars fly. You could eventually kludge together a working hybrid, but why bother? Systems already exist to gratify that urge- they're called "airlines".
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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play Grim Fandango?
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no.
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Your loss.
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well, i'll never know.
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do you have a suggestion nether, of something that could potentially work? given your experience you might have some helpful insight.
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Yeah, if you want to play backgammon or Puzzle Pirates or whatever, play that. The structure of MMOs does not accommodate any style of gamplay other than 'the grind' in this or that form- performing actions to trigger various types of reward.
It's like trying to figure a way to make cars fly. You could eventually kludge together a working hybrid, but why bother? Systems already exist to gratify that urge- they're called "airlines".
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that's like saying why build the pyramids. or why go to the moon. or why read a book when you have TV. just sit back and accept what is cause thats what is. don't bother to dream up a better way to travel cause we already have perfectly adaquate transpertation. to hell with innovation.
with that kind of thinking it's a wonder CoX even got to beta.
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
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that's like saying why build the pyramids.
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Aggrandizing deceased god-emperors was fine for the ancient Egyptians, but it would be pretty ridiculous undertaking in our modern age. Unless of course they could make it pay.
Undertakings are best fitted to their environment.
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or why go to the moon. or why read a book when you have TV. just sit back and accept what is cause thats what is.
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Your idea is more like "hey, why can't we read books on the TV? Wouldn't that be great?"
No, it wouldn't.
TV is great for watching shows. Books are great for reading.
They don't need to be combined.
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with that kind of thinking it's a wonder CoX even got to beta.
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They wanted to make an MMO and they did.
When they realized they needed to add a mini-game to engage their players and increase retention, they added a market, which is a time-tested expansion of the 'grind' formula.
they didn't add an arcade, or a haunted house where you could solve a crime, or a jumping game.
Actually, they did add a jumping game- the Shadow Shard.
And quickly realized their players didn't like that aspect of the zone.
It makes business sense for a game to focus on doing its "thing" as well as it possibly can, not water that core gameplay down by welding on after-market additions. MMOs are about making the grind fun, not providing alternatives.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
so far, we have limited options as to obtain rewards. most of them involve killing. mission types are severly limited as well. i know it has prolly been mentioned before, but why not have a thread to "seed" the devs for future issues.
they'd like to add?
i would like to suggest games of chance. i know it's been mentioned before (and not only by me i'm sure). but what a welcomed relief it would be from the get mission, kill, get mission, kill, return to contact, get mission, kill, grind of daily CoX life.
how awesome would st. martial and pocket d be with slots, card games, roulette, the monkey fight club, races, puzzles, brain teasers, and riddles? it could also be another type of pvp, with card games like poker or blackjack (maybe this will be to exploitable?) with a relativly random element such as the dealer being AI and cards being generated randomly. really, you could walk into pocket d with a hero or a villain. buy chips to play with, then cash out before zoning back to your respective side.
side note: maybe this will be a good time to also implement a global/game account bank/storage and an infamy to influence, and vice/versa, exchange.
things like the ski chalet open all year around would also be a welcome break. you could have a course for every travel power. a type of get the flag thing. there could be tri-athalons and coresponding badges and such to match.
these are just a couple ideas that come to my immediate attention. i'm sure there's more. anyone else have something constructive
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.