a thread to discuss alternatives to "the grind"
By
Aces_High,
Posted on: 2009-07-19 18:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Get a second monitor (or second PC even) or play in windowed mode.
Go to St Martial or the D and then play web games on the second monitor.
This could be done socially with friends too - all take your characters to the D, sit around a table and play poker using an existing online poker app.
Not only would it be incredibly similar to having a popup window in CoH, but it would actually be better due to the much wider selection of games available.
This isn't a million miles form the way people extend their in game expereience out of the game already - making web pages or doing offline RP on supergroup forums and so on.
Best of all, no dev time is involved.
As a games programmer, I'm really adamant about the rule that a game should do one or two things well rather than many things poorly. I'd rather precious dev time was spent on things that only they can give us, like bodytype changing, power colourisation, power proliferation, custom difficulty levels and switchign alignments.
Minigames can be outsourced to the rest of the world effectively.
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what about the monkey fight club? place a wager, if your monkey wins. you get an appropriate reward. or a shooting range. you pay for the target(s) and depending on your performance you could get a common IO recipe, or a SO, or a piece of common salvage.
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Heh, back the first time when I saw those monkies fighting in St Martial I wanted to bet Inf on them. I'd be happy just to win some back on the deal, but other rewards would be fun as well. I just want to back my boy Furious George!
What grind?
Seiously. The "grindiness" of a game is a state of mind. I don't look at this game as a "grind" at all, I look at it as a fun means of escapism that allows me to realize a concept for a character I find intriguing. It only becomes a "grind" when you see the rewards and the XP as the "fun." Socializing and seeing what my character can do, and the challenge of keeping a team together in the current post-AE game is half the fun! Occasional RP and base design is also rather enjoyable, not to mention badging and running TFs.
There are a limited number of avenues to procure advancement for a reason: XP and loot should not be the only things in this game that you are looking for. If it is, then IMO, you are doing something wrong.
Therefore, I ask: where is this grind of which you speak?
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to reiterate, this is about options and immersion.
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Sorry I don't see how this idea of yours helps people immerse into roleplaying a super hero/villain.
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slots, card games, roulette, the monkey fight club, races
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Yeah everyone remembers the stories of when Superman and Dr. Doom went to Vegas and hit the casinos.
Playing the slots/roullette/blackjack/poker - doesn't make anyone feel heroic/villainous.
Placing bets on which npc monkey wins a monkey fight isn't heroic or villainous.
The Arson event in Steel Canyon is a mini game that helps players with immersion.
Safeguard/Mayhem Missions help players with immersion.
The Pillbox mini game in RV helps with immersion.
The Bounties in Sirens help with immersion. (There's a warrant/contract out on player x. Go arrest/kill him.)
The Supa Troll Raves is a mini game that helps with immersion.
Hami/Mothership Raids help players feel more heroic/villainous. (They saved the world or demonstrated the destructive power at their command)
There are a few MA arcs that are of the "puzzle" type and they have been fairly well received. Why don't the devs add missions like that? Sure there will be walkthroughs, and sure some people will hate them, but as long as they are optional content, some people will love them.
Example of a simple puzzle mission: Go through the mission, free some people, read the clues they give, then from the clues choose the right blinky to click. If you click the wrong one, you get a big ambush that gives no xp.
I can totally see some people who don't read and are click-happy getting ticked off when they're splatted into paste by a gang of ten Paragon Protectors. 
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Get a second monitor (or second PC even) or play in windowed mode.
Go to St Martial or the D and then play web games on the second monitor.
This could be done socially with friends too - all take your characters to the D, sit around a table and play poker using an existing online poker app.
Not only would it be incredibly similar to having a popup window in CoH, but it would actually be better due to the much wider selection of games available.
This isn't a million miles form the way people extend their in game expereience out of the game already - making web pages or doing offline RP on supergroup forums and so on.
Best of all, no dev time is involved.
As a games programmer, I'm really adamant about the rule that a game should do one or two things well rather than many things poorly. I'd rather precious dev time was spent on things that only they can give us, like bodytype changing, power colourisation, power proliferation, custom difficulty levels and switchign alignments.
Minigames can be outsourced to the rest of the world effectively.
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your suggestions may not work for everyone. for reasons that are to numerous to mention.
add in a badge, the chance for an IO drop or a title or a costume piece and you have incentive. then you have just another option to indulge your clients with. variety is the spice of life.
why can't a dev team do lots of things well?
being in the service industry for more than half of my life has told me intimatly what people like and dislike. for the sake of your business you have things on your menu that you know from experience will pay the bills. but will all of those people come back, year after year after year? just to eat the same porkchop, mashed potatoes and green beans. some will yes. but in the longterm you will not generate any new costumers because your menu being a succsess in the past will either be copied to hell and back or eventually, though done well, people will want something different.
sure you can maintain the status quo. but that just leaves the door open for someone else to put you out of business. if not today, deffinatly tomorrow.
is it better to try and fail, or to never try at all and maybe be around another year or two? i know what i would do.
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
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to reiterate, this is about options and immersion.
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Sorry I don't see how this idea of yours helps people immerse into roleplaying a super hero/villain.
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slots, card games, roulette, the monkey fight club, races
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Yeah everyone remembers the stories of when Superman and Dr. Doom went to Vegas and hit the casinos.
Playing the slots/roullette/blackjack/poker - doesn't make anyone feel heroic/villainous.
Placing bets on which npc monkey wins a monkey fight isn't heroic or villainous.
The Arson event in Steel Canyon is a mini game that helps players with immersion.
Safeguard/Mayhem Missions help players with immersion.
The Pillbox mini game in RV helps with immersion.
The Bounties in Sirens help with immersion. (There's a warrant/contract out on player x. Go arrest/kill him.)
The Supa Troll Raves is a mini game that helps with immersion.
Hami/Mothership Raids help players feel more heroic/villainous. (They saved the world or demonstrated the destructive power at their command)
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day jobs don't really make me feel more like a hero or villain either. and they're immersive how? you get a reward. and a badge. and a power. so why can't that type of system be implemented with my suggestions?
and there are plenty of situations where super heroes/villains went other places and were still super. does it have to be a casino? no. it could be niagra falls (superman) or the himilayas (batman). or the danger room in the x-mansion.
you are only limited by your imagination. besides, habits, good and bad, learned behaviours and socially imposed restictions and everyday life do have immersive qualities. they key is to find one, two, or four hundred and apply it in a format that will entertain. hence the point of this thread. you will obviously not be entertained by anything i've suggested. and this thread is obviously not speaking to you in the manner i intended.
and all those things that you mentioned are a few great options too.
why not more?
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
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your suggestions may not work for everyone. for reasons that are to numerous to mention.
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I realise I've suggested buying extra hardware there. But last time I needed a second monitor I picked up an old CRT from cash Converters for $4 Australian. Most graphics cards have dual output, so for many people it would be that cheap to set up.
If your PC is old enough for that not to be an option, then you're in the same boat for many other features such as Rikti Invasions. My second PC has a lot of issues with them, I know that
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why can't a dev team do lots of things well?
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Time and money. A dev team is on a budget. WoW has lots of these minigames from what I've heard, because it has a huge subscriber base. We don't.
If you were producer for I16, for example, which features would you pull in order to include minigames?
Power customisation?
Power proliferation?
The new improved difficulty slider?
Improved character creation screens?
I think you're dead right that for the game to be as successful as it can be, these extra frills are very important. All I'm saying is that they need to be prioritised, and if something can be done outside the game already, then that lowers its priority.
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What grind?
Seiously. The "grindiness" of a game is a state of mind. I don't look at this game as a "grind" at all, I look at it as a fun means of escapism that allows me to realize a concept for a character I find intriguing. It only becomes a "grind" when you see the rewards and the XP as the "fun." Socializing and seeing what my character can do, and the challenge of keeping a team together in the current post-AE game is half the fun! Occasional RP and base design is also rather enjoyable, not to mention badging and running TFs.
There are a limited number of avenues to procure advancement for a reason: XP and loot should not be the only things in this game that you are looking for. If it is, then IMO, you are doing something wrong.
Therefore, I ask: where is this grind of which you speak?
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then you would not be a benifactor of any of my suggestions. but in my OP i mentioned specifically the grind of which i speak. so i wont again.
all those things are fun. yes, very much so. but, like any other consumer i want more. the devs give us stuff, of which i am thankful, but i started this thread in the hopes of making a few suggestions, getting some feedback, and maybe coming away with a great idea. i thought that would be obvious. /fail
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
I think having a Tetris minigame in Pocket D would make me actually go to that otherwise useless zone. Opening the ski lodge the whole year might get me to go and goof off some too. Tetris is awesome, and the slidy ice is too. EverQuest had /Gems, which was Tetris, to play while you were bored...but, nah, make zones and maps and stuff instead of minigames. It would be kind of funny to pay Influence to buy packs of cards and play card games against each other (Lord Recluse has all the most broken, overpowered rare-print cards!), but annoying because they'd dedicate an entire Issue to it :lol:
This sort of reminds me of how Statesman used to kick around hints of a Super Secret Out of Combat Skills System which would provide alternative routes to earning XP and/or rewards that would be coming "next issue!"...nothing ever came of that, naturally, because I think States was good at talking a big game but Positron was the one who actually had to figure out how to DO it...I figured the Invention system was probably put together from old notes they made way back then.
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then you would not be a benifactor of any of my suggestions. but in my OP i mentioned specifically the grind of which i speak. so i wont again.
all those things are fun. yes, very much so. but, like any other consumer i want more. the devs give us stuff, of which i am thankful, but i started this thread in the hopes of making a few suggestions, getting some feedback, and maybe coming away with a great idea. i thought that would be obvious. /fail
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I think you missed the underlying point of my post. Not everyone sees the game in the same way that you do and are perfectly content with it as it is.
Change for the sake of change will be seen negatively. Basically: if it ain't broke don't fix it. It seems to me that you need to take a break from the game and play some poker or something. Then, when you are sick of that come back and everything will seem fresh and new again.
/fail, indeed. Failed to see that your suggestions lack necessity, and that others can and will disagree (as evidenced by the replies). I would definately take issue if the dev team would waste their time giving me things that I could get elsewhere. If I wanted to play MMO Chess or Murder Mystery, I would find it... I want to play a super-hero game with colorful graphics and a fun social environment. Guess what? I find all that and more here, and I for one, don't need this game to be anything else.
All I can say is...I want to gamble at the Golden Giza. How is it not immersive? Gambling and crime are just made for each other! Of course, you can't cheat...Kinda spoils it.
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
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being in the service industry for more than half of my life has told me intimatly what people like and dislike. for the sake of your business you have things on your menu that you know from experience will pay the bills. but will all of those people come back, year after year after year? just to eat the same porkchop, mashed potatoes and green beans. some will yes. but in the longterm you will not generate any new costumers because your menu being a succsess in the past will either be copied to hell and back or eventually, though done well, people will want something different.
sure you can maintain the status quo. but that just leaves the door open for someone else to put you out of business. if not today, deffinatly tomorrow.
is it better to try and fail, or to never try at all and maybe be around another year or two? i know what i would do.
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I take issue with your restaurant example. There are many restaurants in America that have existed for a very long time and have not changed a single thing about their menus or even their interior since they opened. Those restaurants are iconic pieces of Americana (or wherever they are). They are landmarks in many cases.
If someone wants the best dang onion rings in my home town they go to the greasy spoon diner a block from my childhood home. They make them fresh, batter and all, and fry them just after you order 'em. If I went back there, and they had "innovated" to a cheaper and more mainstream variety, I would leave and never be back. And you could bet I, and many others, would stop recommending the place to everyone (hey look, by changing they have stopped getting new costumers via word of mouth).
Sometimes people want what they know they will find. Whether that be in a restaurant or in an MMO. CoH/V is a known quantity that does certain things. It is damn good at those things, and if it tried to do something else to capture more people, it would water-down what they do well... and that would be bad.
Also, regarding your last question? Let me re-phrase that for you: Is it better to try something outside of your area of expertise in order to appear money grubbing and fail earning bad press, or to do what you are already good at and lead by example gaining new followers as you innovate based on what you are already doing well? I know what I would do.
An old idea I've had kicking around for some time.
Is it possible to make a card game of any kind of interest or complexity using just the scroe1 to score10 emotes? (where you hold up a scorecard showing 1 to 10)
Both or all players need to "draw" at the same time, ie play their card.
Can this ever be anything beyond a glorified rock/paper/scissors, since you cant hold a hand of cards?
Furthermore, could you play a game using enhancements, since this acts like a deck of cards a bit - you have a hand which only you can see? eg like Rummy, where you pass them on to the player on your left, and you get points for three of a kind, which you can prove using the trading screen...
Can you combine the two somehow? Use your enhancements as a hand of cards, and show one using the scroe emotes. Other players can call your bluff and you have to show them the enhancement...
Make enhancements count according to their last digit, eg a level 33 one is a 3.
I'm off for a think....
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All I can say is...I want to gamble at the Golden Giza. How is it not immersive? Gambling and crime are just made for each other! Of course, you can't cheat...Kinda spoils it.
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I think a better way to do this would be to have a contact who offers repeatable missions that have you able to go into the Giza and gamble... and cheat with the intent on breaking the house advantage and shutting down the Giza (the contact's goal). That way, it is different, optional, villainous AND immersive.
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What grind?
Seiously. The "grindiness" of a game is a state of mind. I don't look at this game as a "grind" at all, I look at it as a fun means of escapism that allows me to realize a concept for a character I find intriguing. It only becomes a "grind" when you see the rewards and the XP as the "fun." Socializing and seeing what my character can do, and the challenge of keeping a team together in the current post-AE game is half the fun! Occasional RP and base design is also rather enjoyable, not to mention badging and running TFs.
There are a limited number of avenues to procure advancement for a reason: XP and loot should not be the only things in this game that you are looking for. If it is, then IMO, you are doing something wrong.
Therefore, I ask: where is this grind of which you speak?
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That's pretty much as far as I'd go. Cover it up as we may try, this is ultimately a game about killing stuff over and over again. If that's not your thing, then it will always be a grind and no amount of "alternatives" will make that go away. If all you care about is the reward and don't enjoy the fight, then there is simply no working around that. If, however, you enjoy beating stuff up with your cool, custom-made characters, then there is no grind to speak of.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I would rather enjoy it if they added more to missions beyond just "slaughter X"
Computer mini-games, hacking and finding files. A good chance to drop in a bunch of lore. OR you could just click through as usual.
Better stealthy options. The ability to crawl through air ducts. Use back/side entrance. So you can spawn elsewhere in the mission. Perhaps a place of your choice.
Fighting more then just "foes." One of the biggest things that Heroes do is stop disasters. While we do have a few of those. How about more? Missions that are just that. Stop a falling plane or prevent a dam from bursting. Better yet, stop forest fires, tornadoes, and earthquakes. Include enough stuff there that players without the requisite powers can fix the issue. Example: Plane mission: Players leap from another plane in flight. They can either fly over and attempt to catch it or slow it's decent with attacks/powers. Or "fall" inside the plane and take control via a mini-game.
For mini-games. Charity events are a potential. Or simple "get cat out of tree" type deals. Why? Because sometimes people want to do stupid stuff like that. Pocket D is a good place to have ACTUAL mini-games. Copy of Bejeweled that uses the CoH/CoV icons instead of jewels. etc.
Maybe this is getting off point, but most of all I would like methods of dealing with foes in non "combat" ways.
I'd like to be able to talk them down. Convince them to give up. Or subdue them. A lot of people RP that as it is. But... I'd like a mechanic for it. Perhaps some sort of "will" bar for foes that we can whittle down. Throw in a chat wheel so we can talk to the foes in the game. With a few options of course.
There's a lot of times where heroes don't "beat up" a foe. They convince them to give up or flee. A little wheel with several options that we could use when fighting... that would be nice. So if I say the right things to the right foe. I can achieve something. Perhaps at low levels, nothing big. Scare them a bit. Lowering any groups in a radius from the fight's aggro radius. Or convince them to, when you win, give up more. Maybe Inf, maybe salvage. No XP I would say.
At high levels, cause foes to flee in terror(run and vanish). Or surrender(hands up). Defeating them and maybe earning diminished XP/drops, but better alternate rewards. Perhaps for this new system. Some foes, of course, can't be scared away. At least not with any ease. Demons for example, Rularru. Some won't surrender, DE. For them, there's always the distracting sarcasm and jokes.
You couldn't put words in the player's mouth. But you COULD make the foes spit out responses that imply things...
As my final thought. You could tie these together into a nice little system(ok big system)
Give foes a new... lets say yellow bar. Chat options fill it up slowly, though it decays like Fury and domination. Vary that based on the foe type. Different things affect different foes. Skulls are easier to taunt then scare. Hellions are easier to scare then taunt. etc. If the bar fills, you achieve your goal. Whatever it was, might be something you picked. Might be dependant on the foe. Might be dependent on what you said.
Higher level foes might not respond to basic taunts. Tie this into the other systems. Add in evidence, that functions like a build up. Adding a boost to what you say to them. Taunting Countess that her hair looks stupid means nothing to her. But taunting her that you caught her on tape doing illegal things...
Might rephrase "taunt" into "Goad" though. To keep confusion down.
But wait a second... now look what I did...
I tried to make a few comments and ended up making an alternate advancement system, maybe a skills system too. (if you add levels and such to it, easy enough)
...I need to make a full proposal for this now. Eeheehehe! I do so love making this sort of stuff up! Realistic or not
Quick question - what does the rest of your team do while you're conversing with the Skull. For that manner, what do the rest of the Skulls do while you're conversing with one specific Skull? If the answer is "wait," we have a problem.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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everything you mentioned are examples of things that were either A: poorly implemented or B: just lame.
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Most of the things you mentioned in your OP are stuff I'd consider lame. I'm not saying it is, I'm sure plenty of folks would like that stuff, but it's boring and uninteresting to me.
On the other hand, what you refer to as "grind" is what I'm having fun with.
Always remember that this is a multiplayer game. If something doesn't give the entire team something to do, it's gonna be a waste of time.
If they introduce puzzles, payers will routinely use guides to solve them without even bothering to notice how they work. It may turn out that the players don't like minigames. Those things may work in single-player games, but this game is a MMORPG. Things are different.
First off, many of the games that you've listed (slots, card games, roulette, card games like poker or blackjack) are illegal in many states and countries around the world. This could cause some problems for NCSoft and for players that live in those countries.
I also believe that the developers taking the time to write the codes to place those games into this one would be a waste of their time. Time they could have spent fixing bugs or giving us more missions, costume items or base items.
If you want to play poker then log off of CoH/V and go to one of those websites and play poker / blackjack / roulette / whatever. That kind of stuff doesn't belong in this game, and if the devs tried to bring it into this game they'd just screw it up anyway.
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not one other thing i mentioned in the OP was a good idea?
[/ QUOTE ]I am trying to be polite, but no. Importing any of these games into this game just does not have any upside, no matter how you look at it.
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Wow. First reply and I'm going negative already...
There are a [very few] things that count as "puzzles" in this game. You can tell because players have been consistently and extensively complaining about them, and avoiding them, for five years straight. Ever get lost in the Perez maze? Ever look for a mission door that was "under the map?" Ever try to find your way to the center of the Abandoned Sewers?
... oh yeah. The playerbase treated those problems like bugs and developed workarounds.
Same with buying "power 10" enhancements. Same with unlockable stores. Same with missions where you had to travel to the end of a hazard zone, then travel through ANOTHER hazard zone (the old Rikti Crash Site). Same with talk-tos, patrol missions, tricky hunts. In fact, while this may sound bitter, the Architect Entertainment system does seem to give a lot of people what they want: travel six feet and have your critters served to you on a plate.
Matt Miller said something once to the effect of "Ten minutes after a puzzle is introduced into an MMO, there's a walkthrough on the web." It's very true.
I hope someone has a good idea... but I don't.
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great, no puzzles. what about the other ideas?
besides. everything you mentioned are examples of things that were either A: poorly implemented or B: just lame. also, those things are examples of things not ot repeat in the future. no?
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Physics puzzles. Without a doubt this is THE way to go. But due to grandfathered system reqs, I just don't see it happening in this particular title. Maybe its successor. But not here.
And if anyone has any question as to what I mean by "physics puzzles" go to any free flash game site and try the myriad of physics based flash mini games that have come out over the past few years. Almost all are 2d, but you'll get the idea. Object stacking. Object toppling. Rag doll tossing. Canon puzzles. etc. etc. There are many other physics based challenges that lay waiting to be discovered. All of these minigames could be reskinned and repurposed to fit the context quite easily. But instead of being minigames, they should IMO, in the generation-after-next superhero MMO be integrated into the larger standard gameplay experience as alternate routes to success. If there is to be a CoX2 of some title or another five years from now, it might be at just the right moment for this sort of gameplay to really come to fruition.
With just enough variables in such dynamic challenges, the results, even catastrophic failures, can be wildly entertaining. But before these things make it into MMOs, the overall reward structure and player psychology will need to be looked at quite seriously. A paradigm shift may be in order. Tie getting your "uber rare" drop to a physics game that for all but the best and most coordinated players requires what amounts to a series of "lucky shots" and you introduce crazy amounts of frustration.
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just because no one has found it doesn't mean it's not there.
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It is out there- it's called "Yahoo games".
There is zero incentive to port stuff that's already widely available into CoH to appease someone who wants to play SuperCheckers or whatever.
Run the game in a window, open your browser and run CoH and whatever other games you want simultaneously.
Voila, all the 'mini games' you could ever want, zero imposition on the devs limited time and energy.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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It makes business sense for a game to focus on doing its "thing" as well as it possibly can, not water that core gameplay down by welding on after-market additions. MMOs are about making the grind fun, not providing alternatives.
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just because no one has found it doesn't mean it's not there.
besides, we read on tv already. that's what we're doing right now.
you have valid points, no doubt. but still not a suggestion that could work. just because it hasn't worked in the past does not mean that it will not in the future.
take the pyramids for example. the first pyramids would have worked as intended left as is, bent in the middle. but they were not. thier creators sought to improve till they satisfied all involved. innovate, push ahead, improve. are my suggestions invalid because the forms they had in the past did not work? no.
it can work. no one has found the perfect form yet. that's all. that's why i started the thread.
further, i think, as i'm sure that there are others, that something like my suggestion would be fun. and not take away from the core content.
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.