a thread to discuss alternatives to "the grind"

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Suggestions forum is two floors down.

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And if you thought you got hostile replies here, well...

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being in the service industry for more than half of my life has told me intimatly what people like and dislike. for the sake of your business you have things on your menu that you know from experience will pay the bills. but will all of those people come back, year after year after year? just to eat the same porkchop, mashed potatoes and green beans. some will yes. but in the longterm you will not generate any new costumers because your menu being a succsess in the past will either be copied to hell and back or eventually, though done well, people will want something different.

sure you can maintain the status quo. but that just leaves the door open for someone else to put you out of business. if not today, deffinatly tomorrow.

is it better to try and fail, or to never try at all and maybe be around another year or two? i know what i would do.

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I take issue with your restaurant example. There are many restaurants in America that have existed for a very long time and have not changed a single thing about their menus or even their interior since they opened. Those restaurants are iconic pieces of Americana (or wherever they are). They are landmarks in many cases.

If someone wants the best dang onion rings in my home town they go to the greasy spoon diner a block from my childhood home. They make them fresh, batter and all, and fry them just after you order 'em. If I went back there, and they had "innovated" to a cheaper and more mainstream variety, I would leave and never be back. And you could bet I, and many others, would stop recommending the place to everyone (hey look, by changing they have stopped getting new costumers via word of mouth).

Sometimes people want what they know they will find. Whether that be in a restaurant or in an MMO. CoH/V is a known quantity that does certain things. It is damn good at those things, and if it tried to do something else to capture more people, it would water-down what they do well... and that would be bad.



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your example demonstrates your point. as did mine. and yes, though this train of thought only gets us further from the discussion at hand, there are variables in the resturant business that all contribute to ultimate success or failure. cost of goods, labor pool, consistency, trends, "themes" if you will, location, location, location. the latter of which allows a lot of resturaunt to operate in a bubble. a perfectly safe and un-innovative bubble. but in larger world/international markets like new york, miami, london, chicago, vegas, tokyo, atlanta, singapore, paris and los angeles (to just name a few). those types of resteraunts become the exception, not the rule. what makes those types of places a success? innovation, taking chances and pushing the envelope. i know, first hand. but that does not make those wonderful little places of which you speak bad. it just means that they have found thier nitch. and as previously stated, it is often in isolated instances.

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Also, regarding your last question? Let me re-phrase that for you: Is it better to try something outside of your area of expertise in order to appear money grubbing and fail earning bad press, or to do what you are already good at and lead by example gaining new followers as you innovate based on what you are already doing well? I know what I would do.

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the point of business is to "grub money". and with any of the recent changes has there been a significant increase of subscriptions? have you noticed anything different about the population on the servers? judging from the server selection screen it's "business" as usual. medium load on freedom and virtue and light on all the rest. just the same as when i started 2+ years ago.

with i16 coming up, it's just a catch-up issue. they know that thier competition will have these feature and now it's a rush to keep pace. which only validates my first resturaunt example.

you make valid arguments. but mine are no less so as a result.

and yes, i failed to make a suggestion that appeals to you.

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The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.

guess i should have started handing out the snacks earlier in the thread... my bad. double snacks for everyone.

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Suggestions forum is two floors down.

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And if you thought you got hostile replies here, well...

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being a "general discussion" forum i think this fits.

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The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.

this actually belongs in the Suggestion & Ideas section as it is a suggestion for players to discuss.

oh and i now have soda to go with the snacks.

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Quick question - what does the rest of your team do while you're conversing with the Skull. For that manner, what do the rest of the Skulls do while you're conversing with one specific Skull? If the answer is "wait," we have a problem.

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obviously, nothing is not an option. keep the rest of the goons busy? hold up the wall that is getting ready to collapse bringing down the rest of the building while you find a quick way to save all the occupants? i dunno. answer it for yourself. what would you like to do while the team "leader" is conversing?

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The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.

walk out and let the building fall on you? then go form a new team and kill stuff.

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First off, many of the games that you've listed (slots, card games, roulette, card games like poker or blackjack) are illegal in many states and countries around the world. This could cause some problems for NCSoft and for players that live in those countries.

I also believe that the developers taking the time to write the codes to place those games into this one would be a waste of their time. Time they could have spent fixing bugs or giving us more missions, costume items or base items.

If you want to play poker then log off of CoH/V and go to one of those websites and play poker / blackjack / roulette / whatever. That kind of stuff doesn't belong in this game, and if the devs tried to bring it into this game they'd just screw it up anyway.

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not one other thing i mentioned in the OP was a good idea?

[/ QUOTE ]I am trying to be polite, but no. Importing any of these games into this game just does not have any upside, no matter how you look at it.

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i listed potential upside. my suggestions were examples. nothing to set in stone. a fire, so to speak, to get the pot boiling.

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The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.

Occasional mini-games as part of missions? Sure, that I can go along with.

Even a mission tied to the Hellion arsons in Steel Canyon where you actually enter the building with a Fire extinguisher and free trapped people. That I could definitely go along with. If you have Ice based powers you wouldn't even need the extinguisher.

More options on mission types would definitely be cool. There is already a stealth-type mission in one of the RWZ arcs, I forget exactly which one, but it's there.

Adding games just to add games is and will continue to be a bad idea. If it actually has something to do with being a hero or villain, sure. Gambling doesn't fit that bill. Neither does playing pinball in Pocket D.

"Hey, have you seen SuperUltra Guy around lately? He's really been letting his neighborhood go to crap!"

"Nope, haven't seen him, but he has the top 6 scores on the pinball machine in Pocket D!"

So, minigames that relate to what we're supposed to be doing, yes.

Minigames that don't relate to what we're supposed to be doing, and can be found elsewhere online, no.

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just because no one has found it doesn't mean it's not there.


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It is out there- it's called "Yahoo games".

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i meant a mmo with some type of side game other than what is currently available. this does not mean that i'm unhappy, or unsatisfied with my gaming experience. i just thought my suggestion would be interesting options/alternatives.

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There is zero incentive to port stuff that's already widely available into CoH to appease someone who wants to play SuperCheckers or whatever.

Run the game in a window, open your browser and run CoH and whatever other games you want simultaneously.

Voila, all the 'mini games' you could ever want, zero imposition on the devs limited time and energy.

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what about a type of danger room option in SG bases to pass the time while waiting for friends to come online? what about a chess board where all the pieces are players? or checkers? yes, checkers, as it is. would not be a fun way to pass CoX time. but that is what i'm trying to discuss.

gambling was a suggestion to add incentive. the BM/WW isn't a limited form of gambling already?

shoot me down all you want. that does not mean that just because things like that have failed in the past they will continue to do so. with small minds nothing would ever change.

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The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.

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Occasional mini-games as part of missions? Sure, that I can go along with.

Even a mission tied to the Hellion arsons in Steel Canyon where you actually enter the building with a Fire extinguisher and free trapped people. That I could definitely go along with. If you have Ice based powers you wouldn't even need the extinguisher.

More options on mission types would definitely be cool. There is already a stealth-type mission in one of the RWZ arcs, I forget exactly which one, but it's there.

Adding games just to add games is and will continue to be a bad idea. If it actually has something to do with being a hero or villain, sure. Gambling doesn't fit that bill. Neither does playing pinball in Pocket D.

"Hey, have you seen SuperUltra Guy around lately? He's really been letting his neighborhood go to crap!"

"Nope, haven't seen him, but he has the top 6 scores on the pinball machine in Pocket D!"

So, minigames that relate to what we're supposed to be doing, yes.

Minigames that don't relate to what we're supposed to be doing, and can be found elsewhere online, no.

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makes perfect sense.

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The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.

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Suggestions forum is two floors down.

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And if you thought you got hostile replies here, well...

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being a "general discussion" forum i think this fits.

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You are making a suggestion so it is more appropriate in the Suggestions and Ideas forum. Just because this is the "General" Area this part (For Fun!) is still broken down into different categories: for example you don't go to the MA lore area and talk about the latest episode of Heroes. This is an area to talk about more general aspects of the game (not specifics like builds, individual server events or suggestions) that's why they have their own forums.

Edited for clarity.

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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff

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Quick question - what does the rest of your team do while you're conversing with the Skull. For that manner, what do the rest of the Skulls do while you're conversing with one specific Skull? If the answer is "wait," we have a problem.

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obviously, nothing is not an option. keep the rest of the goons busy? hold up the wall that is getting ready to collapse bringing down the rest of the building while you find a quick way to save all the occupants? i dunno. answer it for yourself. what would you like to do while the team "leader" is conversing?

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Same thing I do when I'm watching an unskippable cutscene for the zillionth time - turn around and watch TV for 5 minutes. Which is NOT a good thing for a game to incite. Ideally, what I would like to do is AVOID having "the leader" engage in conversation while we're fighting, because having one team-mate and one enemy stand still for the majority of the fight does nothing to enhance my gameplay. This is good for a single-player game like Mass Effect, but not so good for an MMO.

Besides, it would be nice to stay within the realms of what's conceivable to do in the game. Pretty much the only two options are "stand around," which is bad, and "fight," which makes the entire conversation patently possible. The only way to make this in the slightest at all meaningful is to make the encounter practically unwinnable but through diplomacy, which then becomes cheap and lame right off the bat, especially in a game that's about killing things. I don't mind more interactive missions, but I don't consider them to be the holy grail of gameplay. In fact, for the most part those "minigames" irritate me more than they help me enjoy my time. I certainly got sick of all the riding around in super-slow lifts in Mass Effect.

Also, "figure it out yourself" is not a very good stance when you're trying to sell an idea.

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I suggest looking at Dana Massey's column at mmorpg.com "Make The Journey Fun". I don't quite agree with his proposed solution, but his analysis strikes me as pretty accurate.

Also of interest is the column by Sanya Weathers about quest design that he references:

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"Part of leveling quickly means avoiding anything that might require time. Puzzles, word games, and riddles are only acceptable if the answers are already posted in spoilers on fan sites. The hardcore enjoy solving puzzles, but the hardcore aren’t keeping the servers running. The truly dedicated will alt-tab out to a spoiler site and continue playing, but everyone else will simply quit playing. One anonymous source told me that in a zone with a quest completion rate of around 70%, the sole puzzle quest will have a completion rate of 15%. And it wasn’t that high until the answers were on The Brasse and Allakhazam."

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I just scanned some of the thread so this is not a reply to anyone in particular.

There are already "min-games" that you can play in the game that are player created using existing resources.

I have seen rock/paper/scissors contests in pocket D for prizes. I have seen screenshots of elaborate bases created to play "Repel Ball" or the boardgame, Clue.

As someone upthread mentioned, we have emotes for cards from 1 - 10 and coin toss and dice. If someone wanted to they could be creative and create a game using one or more of those. In fact, the Clue game I mentioned used the dice emote as part of the game to determine spaces to move, just like the real game.

The arena also had matches that could be scheduled with an entry fee, with the winner taking the prize. I'm not sure whether that ever worked or if it's been removed, but it would be an example of the types of things the OP is requesting.

I always thought that there should be an instance of the arena in the monkey cage with obsevers being able to wager and emote but not cast powers, as 2 or more combatants fought it out. I would happily do that.

And finally, there have been costume contests in Atlas Park for as long as I can remember. I was never a fan of those, but they never really bothered me either. That's a classic example of things that players can do as an alternative to "the grind" that still gives out rewards.

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50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

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I suggest looking at Dana Massey's column at mmorpg.com "Make The Journey Fun". I don't quite agree with his proposed solution, but his analysis strikes me as pretty accurate.

Also of interest is the column by Sanya Weathers about quest design that he references:

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"Part of leveling quickly means avoiding anything that might require time. Puzzles, word games, and riddles are only acceptable if the answers are already posted in spoilers on fan sites. The hardcore enjoy solving puzzles, but the hardcore aren’t keeping the servers running. The truly dedicated will alt-tab out to a spoiler site and continue playing, but everyone else will simply quit playing. One anonymous source told me that in a zone with a quest completion rate of around 70%, the sole puzzle quest will have a completion rate of 15%. And it wasn’t that high until the answers were on The Brasse and Allakhazam."

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very insightful. and saddening too. even though i will let this one die, that does not mean i have to stop dreaming. those articles just stated that everyone fails and business ruins everything as well as enhances it.

another paradox i find funny though, while looking through this microscope, is that the most vocal people here are the least interested. wierd

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The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.

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also city of Villains . way to be constructive too .

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No. CoV is the name of the first paid expansion. The game has always been City of Heroes.

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I beg to differ. My game box clearly says "City of Villains". It does NOT say "Expansion" on it anywhere. At all.

Now that they've merged the two games they're one game, but it wasn't always so. City of Villains was a stand alone game that shared the same universe as City of Heroes, but I couldn't buy CoV and play blueside when it came out because I didn't actually own City of Heroes. Not until Good and Evil edition. At that point, city of heroes became an expansion to my CoV. :P

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I like the idea of more content (period). I'd like it if the Ski Chalet was open a bit longer every year (through the actual winter months), but not all year 'round. I think a summer zone, like maybe a tropical volcanic island (with an angry Volcano God GM to fight and eruptions that spew magma men all over the zone) would be great.

I'd like to see more usefulness to bases, to make them somewhere cool to hang out instead of just a place to Keep Your Stuff. I'd like to see more things to do in the Midnighter Club than just hunt the lore badge (which you can in fact find a walkthrough for with no trouble). I'd like more events in unexpected places, not just zombies here, Rikti there.

That all said, I've never really felt that this game was very grindy. Certainly not compared to other MMOs. There's been a few rough patches in my characters' careers where I felt like I was just trudging my way to the next level or whatever, but it's decidedly the exception and not the rule. For the most part I find the game very satisfactory for remaining fun and interesting and not grindy at all.

But I'm also open to having some more fiddly bits. Hidden places that people can find (but don't have to). The Developer Dungeon in Grandville is cool, but it'd be cooler if there was something you could do when you got there except kill an Arachnoid. That sort of thing.

But by and large, those are really perks. The core of the game is pretty solid and I certainly wouldn't want to change that.

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No. CoV is the name of the first paid expansion. The game has always been City of Heroes.

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uh wrong.

CoV was an expansion, but it was also a stand-alone game.
For quite a while plenty of players *only* had CoV, with no access to Paragon City.

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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

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No. CoV is the name of the first paid expansion. The game has always been City of Heroes.

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uh wrong.

CoV was an expansion, but it was also a stand-alone game.
For quite a while plenty of players *only* had CoV, with no access to Paragon City.

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Hence the birth of the horrid term: "expansalone."

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50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

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I suggest looking at Dana Massey's column at mmorpg.com "Make The Journey Fun". I don't quite agree with his proposed solution, but his analysis strikes me as pretty accurate.

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Man, that was spot-on. I'm a "for fun" player all the way. I came into the whole MMO thing late. I had played MUDs before, but most of my gaming has been PnP tabletop games where the actual experience is more important than what level you are.

So I approached MMOs the same way. Is the game fun RIGHT NOW? If not, I lose interest and find something else to do. I'm not going to go kill rats for 3 weeks so I can start having fun. One of the best things about Warhammer Online (as mentioned in the article) is I could jump right into RVR at level 1 (and even rack up some kills). I had alot of fun in that game until the RVR became a game of musical keeps because apparently not enough of us think engaging in multi-player vs player keep sieges is fun enough.

Fun is 100% what the game is about for me. XP and other rewards are the icing on the cake. The big delicious funcake (that sounds like an inuendo doesn't it? Funny).

I do not understand the mindset of grind for stuff so we can go get more stuff. I like the open ended epic storyline idea alot. I like the sandbox idea. Give me Things to Do and Make Them Fun and I'll play forever. Neverwinter Nights was all about the story and that had a pretty big community. It wasn't an MMO but persistent world servers did exist (I even ran one) and the appeal was being part of a living world and exploring and telling stories with friends, not achieving level 20.

I'd love to see MMOs break out of the level-grind mold and give us Fun from Level 1.

I think CoV does a pretty good job overall, but it still has too much level mindset and the world, the story, is too static. But AE fixes that for me. Now just figure out how to make a whole world with a dynamic story and you've got something.

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No. CoV is the name of the first paid expansion. The game has always been City of Heroes.

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uh wrong.

CoV was an expansion, but it was also a stand-alone game.
For quite a while plenty of players *only* had CoV, with no access to Paragon City.

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Hence the birth of the horrid term: "expansalone."

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Thats not even a real word!

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No. CoV is the name of the first paid expansion. The game has always been City of Heroes.

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uh wrong.

CoV was an expansion, but it was also a stand-alone game.
For quite a while plenty of players *only* had CoV, with no access to Paragon City.

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Hence the birth of the horrid term: "expansalone."

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Thats not even a real word!

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Yet it is what they (Cryptic/NC Soft) called it.

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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff

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what about a type of danger room option in SG bases to pass the time while waiting for friends to come online? what about a chess board where all the pieces are players? or checkers? yes, checkers, as it is. would not be a fun way to pass CoX time. but that is what i'm trying to discuss.

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Technically we have this already. The AE is would make a great danger room, and we have been asking for a base AE terminal for exactly the purpose you describe.

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what about a type of danger room option in SG bases to pass the time while waiting for friends to come online? what about a chess board where all the pieces are players? or checkers? yes, checkers, as it is. would not be a fun way to pass CoX time. but that is what i'm trying to discuss.

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Technically we have this already. The AE is would make a great danger room, and we have been asking for a base AE terminal for exactly the purpose you describe.

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A base AE terminal would be a fantastic addition. I hope they add it.

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