Too evil to be considered good?

[ QUOTE ]
And what about Detonator in Traps? I suppose with that one the henchman at least tries to get rid of the bomb...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that mental image.
Now I have to run off and make a macro.
something like "powexec_name detonator$$petsay Get it off me! Get it off me!"

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And what about Detonator in Traps? I suppose with that one the henchman at least tries to get rid of the bomb...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that mental image.
Now I have to run off and make a macro.
something like "powexec_name detonator$$petsay Get it off me! Get it off me!"

[/ QUOTE ]

That would never get old

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Well....ok. Maybe with detonate we've hit one thats about as close to the line as we can get. However, even that has some flexibility.

With Zombies and Bots...no issues. Neither is technically alive so (other than the whole heroic zombie MM question) nobody is going to question their use as a self mobile bomb.

Ninjas/Mercs/Thugs? Well, here's where it gets a bit iffy. Still, if your followers are devoted/fanatic enough in the cause of good, they'll grab the bomb from your hand and take off running because THEY REALLY WANT TO!

That might be a bit of an exaggeration but you see the point.

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Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.

[ QUOTE ]
The devs said (when power proliferation was first being talked about and around the time that they announced which sets) that heroes wouldn't get Poison and villains wouldn't get Empathy.

Traps, on the other hand, wasn't ever mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Irrelevant anyway. Whatever arguments they used to deny Villains Empathy are now out the window as soon as Going Rogue arrives and each side effectively gets access to every powerset in the game whether it "seems" good or evil.

There is no longer any reason to deny any particular AT a powerset based on "good vs evil" because every AT will be both a hero and a villain AT.

---

Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer

Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!

[ QUOTE ]

Ninjas/Mercs/Thugs? Well, here's where it gets a bit iffy. Still, if your followers are devoted/fanatic enough in the cause of good, they'll grab the bomb from your hand and take off running because THEY REALLY WANT TO!


[/ QUOTE ]
The problem with that being that the game mechanics actually make them drop the bomb and run away to preserve theselves.

Edit: Not that I've ever noticed that...

Moar edit: Not that I was looking...

Final edit: Don't look at me like that! They're fodder, after all.

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The devs said (when power proliferation was first being talked about and around the time that they announced which sets) that heroes wouldn't get Poison and villains wouldn't get Empathy.

Traps, on the other hand, wasn't ever mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Irrelevant anyway. Whatever arguments they used to deny Villains Empathy are now out the window as soon as Going Rogue arrives and each side effectively gets access to every powerset in the game whether it "seems" good or evil.

There is no longer any reason to deny any particular AT a powerset based on "good vs evil" because every AT will be both a hero and a villain AT.

[/ QUOTE ]
One word: Linderman.

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OK, for every theory there are going to be exceptions. Besides, this could just be thought of as "Really Bad Headache".... unless I actually see a head roll a random 2d6 feet away (old RPG reference there. +4 geek points if you know it) it could still be considered non-lethal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rolemaster

[/ QUOTE ]If he hadn't said "old" (and if it were 1D10 meters), I would have guessed Dark Heresy, since this happens A LOT in that game.

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All that is planned fails. All that is born dies.
All that is built crumbles. This will always be true.

But memories remain, And that is beautiful.

[ QUOTE ]
One word: Linderman.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh that got mentioned too. Didn't change their opinion. Heroes can soak their enemies in propellant and then set them on fire. Shower them with "lethal" radiation. Suck out their souls. But let's not give Villains empathy. Oh no... that's not evil enough!

Like I said, it was worth a good laugh remembering that when I saw the announcement for Going Rogue.

---

Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer

Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!

So basically the general feeling is that we will and should anyway have poison traps all around atlas?

See, i feel evil just by thinking about making a poor hellion be sick so a level 1 can beat [i mean arrest] him.

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The devs said (when power proliferation was first being talked about and around the time that they announced which sets) that heroes wouldn't get Poison and villains wouldn't get Empathy.

Traps, on the other hand, wasn't ever mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Irrelevant anyway. Whatever arguments they used to deny Villains Empathy are now out the window as soon as Going Rogue arrives and each side effectively gets access to every powerset in the game whether it "seems" good or evil.

There is no longer any reason to deny any particular AT a powerset based on "good vs evil" because every AT will be both a hero and a villain AT.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes and no - since it's going with a system to determine whether you're a hero or villain based on actions, they could simply have the Empathy powers move you along the path to being "heroic" (or inversely, the Poison powers moving you to "villainous"). It could be reinforced so that the reasoning behind the lack of proliferation is upheld, despite any logical reasons why it shouldn't. Note that in my mind there's no reason not to proliferate either one if you're going to do all the others, I was merely commenting on what the devs said about proliferation.

But Poison Trap is available in Traps, which they didn't say wouldn't be proliferated (aren't double negatives grand?), and of the two versions (Poison vs Traps) it's the superior power. So yes, eventually you should be able to put it on a Defender or Controller.

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK, for every theory there are going to be exceptions. Besides, this could just be thought of as "Really Bad Headache".... unless I actually see a head roll a random 2d6 feet away (old RPG reference there. +4 geek points if you know it) it could still be considered non-lethal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rolemaster

[/ QUOTE ]If he hadn't said "old" (and if it were 1D10 meters), I would have guessed Dark Heresy, since this happens A LOT in that game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I was aiming at the old critical hit charts from the original Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. The game divided damage into hit locations and that was top of the chart for critical damage to the head.

Now, I think Dark Heresy is an newer offshoot of that so that might have been the closest answer.

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Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes and no - since it's going with a system to determine whether you're a hero or villain based on actions, they could simply have the Empathy powers move you along the path to being "heroic" (or inversely, the Poison powers moving you to "villainous").

[/ QUOTE ]

I really doubt the morality system will be powerset based. Side-switching is THE big feature of Going Rogue. I don't think they are going to tell people they can't take their favorite characters across enemy lines because of a choice they made long before GR was even announced. Haven't they already said the morality system would be based on clearly-marked and optional story-arcs anyway (or am I imagining that?)

[ QUOTE ]
I was merely commenting on what the devs said about proliferation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Understood, but I think GR represents a major shift away from that previous philosophy. They're saying it no longer matters WHAT you are playing, but how you play it and what choices you make in the morality-based missions. Whether those missions will provide branching decisions that take you one way or the other or if it will simply be a matter of which contacts you choose, that seems a far more likely mechanic than telling Empaths they can't "go rogue" but Rads can because... they heal with Radiation instead of happy thoughts??

---

Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer

Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!

Agreed on those points - but they could choose to arbitrarily make that decision.

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[ QUOTE ]
The devs said (when power proliferation was first being talked about and around the time that they announced which sets) that heroes wouldn't get Poison and villains wouldn't get Empathy.

Traps, on the other hand, wasn't ever mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that with Going Rogue coming soon, all our misconceptions of what is "good" and what is "evil" will need alot reviewing.

Are there tools that are inherently evil by the way? I always thought that behavior made people good, or evil.

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I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire

[ QUOTE ]
Are there tools that are inherently evil by the way? I always thought that behavior made people good, or evil.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it depends on what you confine as good and evil. If you adhere to a Machiavellian definition wherein the means is unimportant as long as the intentions are pure, then, no, there are no evil weapons. However, if you adhere to a more traditional moral viewpoint wherein means is just as important as the desired end, then there are a number of evil weapons, though which weapons are evil and which are not is then a line that needs is drawn from person to person.

If you go by the precedent set by the real world, "evil" weapons would most likely be construed as any weapon that is either especially difficult to control and therefore has the capacity to generate a large number of unintended deaths and/or long term environmental consequences or one that causes an inordinate amount of suffering before killing the target. Interestingly enough, many of the weapons Heroes use in game could easily be considered "evil" by this definition: */Devices uses mines, Radiation uses radioactive emissions, Spines has a toxic damage component that could be construed as poison, etc.

Personally, I think the line was drawn by the devs for thematic reasons concerning the actual names of the power set. While it could easily be used for evil purposes (and often is by narcissistic sociopaths), empathy is considered to be heroic, which is why it had to be changed into Pain Domination to be thematically "evil" enough. While a variety of poisons are actually used in a number of holistic healing methods and even herbal healing to an extent, plus the fact that many governments have no problem using many engineered poisons for nonlethal crowd control (tear gas anyone?), poison, as a name, is considered to be too evil to be used heroically.

It's a semantic point that the devs have decided to drawn the line at. It may not make a load of sense (considering that burning targets alive is probably much more cruel than simply making them vomit endlessly for a few hours), but that's where the devs have drawn it.

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[ QUOTE ]
Agreed on those points - but they could choose to arbitrarily make that decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? The devs would make a hugely unpopular change to the game?

Unpossible!

---

Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer

Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!

Yes, because every animal in nature that is poisonous to another creature is evil.... sigh.

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Neither are animals that kill and eat humans. They're just predators. But if a human does it (killing and eating other humans... or poisoning them), that's evil.

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I team with the Repeat Offenders.

[ QUOTE ]
Neither are animals that kill and eat humans. They're just predators. But if a human does it (killing and eating other humans... or poisoning them), that's evil.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless it's Soylent Green.

---

Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer

Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!

True, but that's because Soylent Green is deeeelicious.

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I team with the Repeat Offenders.

Tangent:
Soylent Grün ist ein Produkt aus Menschenfleisch! MENSCHENFLEISCH!

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[ QUOTE ]
Soylent Grün ist Menschenfleisch!

[/ QUOTE ]
I had a "reverse-engineer the password" programming/debugging assignment in college where this was the password. That TA was cool.

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I team with the Repeat Offenders.