Status Protection for all

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I'm sorry, but, really? My suggestion was really that bad?

[/ QUOTE ] I don't think it was horrible, but very unneeded. There are tactics already in game to use, and the best point I saw is that this pool would be pretty useless to the ATs that already have mez protection.

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Try reading all of my posts in a Flat, Monotone manner.

[/ QUOTE ] That amuses me.

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While I don't write in a flat, monotone manner it's easier to ask someone to do that than to explain the subtlety of body language, pitch, tone, and style of speaking. There are no visual or audible cues in plain text beyond -stresses- of various [u]sorts[u] And while you can stress a point or even a phrase you can't transmit -how- you're saying it to people through text.

Ever watched My Cousin Vinny? They got a verbal confession out of one of the brothers because he asked, incredulously: "I did it? I did it? I murdered those guys?" And, when read back without appropriate punctuation it became a confession.

People seem to like reading into what I say for emotion, sarcasm, or anger. If people would just read it as plain text many misunderstandings wouldn't occur.

Except, of course, when I put in direct text based clues. But who'd -ever- notice that? /sarcasm

-Rachel-

I re-read you post in Ben Stein's voice. Imaging a female talking like that was amusing. I knew what you were saying, I just took it a step further. :P

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If you are always getting held/mezed and you find it bothersome adjust your tactics and slotting.

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QFT

Why would I waste power selections for something I can achieve with proper slotting and a couple of insp's...

....

You would win an internet for that. But I'm out of tubes. Instead: Have a cookie!

-Rachel-

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Higher level enemies are only a threat because they can mez you. If you remove that ability everything becomes a cakewalk.

And in my opinion, cakewalk = boring.

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Better yank Breakfrees out of the game, then. In fact, let's do away with ALL inspirations, they make the game a cakewalk.

I will never understand why its ok that some people are allowed to have [x] and it is in fact their birthright... but other people wanting a piece of the exact same slice of dessert is "making the game a cakewalk."

Or perhaps we should REMOVE status protection from melee-types, eh? Sounds like a plan to me, and think of how "interesting" THAT would make the game.

p.s Artic, just ignore "rachel." She showed her colors well and truly in the main forums' MA thread; trust me giving her more time is just opening yourself up to more of her trying to tell you what you should be doing every second you're in the game.

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I will never understand why its ok that some people are allowed to have [x] and it is in fact their birthright... but other people wanting a piece of the exact same slice of dessert is "making the game a cakewalk."

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It's more that they're getting something for nothing, especially since it's a specific capability to ignore a crippling side effect that is much more common in melee and to high damage classes. Tankers and Scrappers get it because otherwise they wouldn't be able to do anything. Most of the Defenders and Controllers I know that routinely complain about getting held are bouncing around in melee. They aren't required to do that by design of powersets. Tankers and Scrappers are. That's why they get innate mez protection.

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Or perhaps we should REMOVE status protection from melee-types, eh? Sounds like a plan to me, and think of how "interesting" THAT would make the game.

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I'd be willing to have you remove status protection from the melee-types if you're willing to turn all Controller, Blaster, and Defender powers to melee attacks.

Status protection is a side effect of having to run around in melee. Imagine not having Immobilization protection when you've got to be in melee to have any effect. It's even worse than being stunned or held because, while you should be able to do something, you can't.

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Higher level enemies are only a threat because they can mez you. If you remove that ability everything becomes a cakewalk.

And in my opinion, cakewalk = boring.

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Better yank Breakfrees out of the game, then. In fact, let's do away with ALL inspirations, they make the game a cakewalk.

I will never understand why its ok that some people are allowed to have [x] and it is in fact their birthright... but other people wanting a piece of the exact same slice of dessert is "making the game a cakewalk."

Or perhaps we should REMOVE status protection from melee-types, eh? Sounds like a plan to me, and think of how "interesting" THAT would make the game.

p.s Artic, just ignore "rachel." She showed her colors well and truly in the main forums' MA thread; trust me giving her more time is just opening yourself up to more of her trying to tell you what you should be doing every second you're in the game.

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Most Defenders, Blasters and Controllers have access to at least one way of making their foe less of a threat. All Controllers can hold a status effect using foe, so can many defenders, while blasters can still attack while they are mezzed. Since there are so many ways amongst those archtypes of pre-empting a status effect, through either using one first, or debuffing the enemy into helplessness, they do not get status protection, probably because it would make them too powerful.

If a Rad Defender puts both debuff toggles on an enemy, that enemy's chance to hit is probably floored, they have almost no defense themselves, they take more damage, and they deal less damage when they DO hit. And they should get status protection on top of that? The slim chance of a mez getting through is just about the only thing stopping a defender in that situation from being nigh-invincible.

Scrappers and Tankers on the other hand, usually have NO way of preventing those effects from being fired at them. And since their JOB is to be in melee range, diverting attention away from the less hardy members of the team, while having no way to stop enemies from using mez effects, they get status protection.

It's a simple balance feature. Those that can prevent status effects proactively do not get protection from them. Those that cannot prevent status effects proactively DO get protection from them.

Scrappers get a pathetic selection of status effects available to them. In the scrapper primaries there is ONE immobilize, and ONE fear. That's all. Spines and Dark Melee are the only scrapper primaries that have ANY kind of status effect at all. And both are imperfect. Scrappers APPs are equally pathetic in regards to status effects, they get ONE immobilize, a slow patch that makes enemies run, and ONE hold, which is generally regarded as the worst hold in the game. That doesn't give scrappers too many ways of proactively preventing a status effect attack now, does it? A scrapper will NEVER apply a status effect other than fear to a boss.

Tanks have it somewhat better because they didn't get screwed on their APPs. All tanker APPs have a hold in them. A couple tanker secondaries have status effects in them, notably Knockout Blow having a hold effect, as well as Seismic Smash. Other than that, tanks don't have much of any way of preventing status effects being fired at them.

Controllers have in their primary, a whole slew of proactive status effect prevention tools. At minimum in every single set there is one single target hold and one AoE hold. In EVERY set. There are also sleeps, continuous knockdowns, confuses. You name it, a controller somewhere can do it.

Almost every blast set in the game that blasters and defenders can use has at least ONE status effect. Fire is the only set I know of that DOESN'T have one. Sonic and Ice both have 2 each, and one of Sonic's is an AoE. Even Assault Rifle and Archery have a stun in them.

Defender primaries/controller secondaries have numerous proactive status effect prevention tools in them. Rad can make it unlikely that such an effect will land, and has a way to make any that DO land last for much less time. Force Field and Sonic Dispersion actually DO have status protection in them, I suspect to make up for their lack of proactive ability. Kinetics is actually the loser in that regards, it has no proactive tools usable on yourself. But it has the ability to protect teammates and boost their damage to the point that enemies will not have much time to fire anything at all.

So in short, sure squishies can have status protection. On one condition: remove their ability to mez and debuff -OR- give scrappers and tanks EQUAL ability to mez and debuff.

Truly, TLR the sermon.

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So in short, sure squishies can have status protection. On one condition: remove their ability to mez and debuff -OR- give scrappers and tanks EQUAL ability to mez and debuff.

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I'm not advocating the removal of mez protection from melee'ers. I'm saying that "ZOMG HOW DARE YOU WANT ONE IOTA OF STATUS PROTECTION, YOU SQUISHY!" is every bit as hyperbolic, short-sighted and frankly... mean.

Well, since you didn't read the rest of the post, and only the last sentence, I'll take that statement with a grain of salt. I elaborated on it in the rest of the post, but you don't seem to care, so I'll just leave it alone.

Edit: Though I personally find it hilarious that you admit you didn't read my post, and then respond like you know what it was about.

Why on earth do I need to study a bunch of sermonizing which does nothing but restate the obvious? You proffer this stuff like its some devastating comeback to the idea that we have two states of status protection in the game:

*God-mode

*NONE WHATSOEVER.

You don't like it that some people think there ought to be some mitigation between the two extremes. That's nice and all, but I don't agree.

You don't agree with my not agreeing. Game/set/match.

Immobilize Protection = Combat Jumping
Hold Protection and resistance = Acrobatics
Clear Mind, Thaw, Clarity, Inertial Reduction, Accelerate Metabolism (technically resistance)
Dispersion Bubble and Sonic Dispersion

The first two are available to anyone at all who wants them. You have an odd definition of NONE WHATSOEVER.

The ATs that have status protection are the ones who have next to zero ability to USE status effects. When they are fighting there is almost nothing they can do to prevent status effects from being used on them. Therefore, since they can't stop their enemy from using the powers, they get protection from them.

The ATs that don't get status protection have many ways of proactively preventing it. If an enemy is held it is NOT holding you. They have the means to prevent their enemy from using the powers that inflict status protection in the first place, therefore they do NOT get protection from those powers.

What you are essentially asking for is for some ATs to have the ability to make entire spawns helpless with their status effects while being immune to them in return.

You're asking for equality, so am I.

You want defenders and controllers to have status protection. Fair enough.

I want scrappers and tanks to be able to mez and debuff entire spawns so they can't fight back.

But wait! That would be overpowered!

See where I'm going with this.....?

B_I doesn't time for your facts!

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Scrappers get a pathetic selection of status effects available to them. In the scrapper primaries there is ONE immobilize, and ONE fear. That's all. Spines and Dark Melee are the only scrapper primaries that have ANY kind of status effect at all. And both are imperfect. Scrappers APPs are equally pathetic in regards to status effects, they get ONE immobilize, a slow patch that makes enemies run, and ONE hold, which is generally regarded as the worst hold in the game. That doesn't give scrappers too many ways of proactively preventing a status effect attack now, does it? A scrapper will NEVER apply a status effect other than fear to a boss.

[/ QUOTE ]Actually, my MA scrapper stuns bosses all the time. Because MA has *three* stuns.

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Scrappers get a pathetic selection of status effects available to them. In the scrapper primaries there is ONE immobilize, and ONE fear. That's all. Spines and Dark Melee are the only scrapper primaries that have ANY kind of status effect at all. And both are imperfect. Scrappers APPs are equally pathetic in regards to status effects, they get ONE immobilize, a slow patch that makes enemies run, and ONE hold, which is generally regarded as the worst hold in the game. That doesn't give scrappers too many ways of proactively preventing a status effect attack now, does it? A scrapper will NEVER apply a status effect other than fear to a boss.

[/ QUOTE ]Actually, my MA scrapper stuns bosses all the time. Because MA has *three* stuns.

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Good point. Cobra Strike FTW!

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other person: What you are essentially asking for is for some ATs to have the ability to make entire spawns helpless with their status effects while being immune to them in return.

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If you could confine your remarks to stuff i actually SAID, this conversation might actually go somewheres... As far as this blather about Combat Jumping and Acrobatics, most of my builds are tighter than latex fetish-wear. I don't have ROOM to be picking up CJ so that I can get to Acrobatics, especially when Jump is not my travel power. And it never is.

If Fitness were not a problem perhaps I could, but I am already picking up extraneous stuff to get powers I desperately need. I'm supposed to pick up two travel pools just so I can meet your criterion...? right.

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If an enemy is held it is NOT holding you.

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I see. So you never 1. have a hold or other control power miss and 2. never deal with NPCs extremely resistant to same and 3. are never on teams fighting HUGE groups of NPCs featuring multiple mezzers. You rock so hard that frankly, you are simply made of win! Congrats!

/endsarcasm

B_I just drop it. if you are o n teams that aren't using their powers the way they should be then maybe you should be looking for other teams. maybe you should also think about taking some of the pool powers for travel that offer this type of protection. you don't need all of your primary or secondary powers nor the concealment pool or the medicine pool or whatever pools you are taking that is making your build so tight. use mid's and plan your build out if you don't already.

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B_I just drop it. if you are o n teams that aren't using their powers the way they should be then maybe you should be looking for other teams. maybe you should also think about taking some of the pool powers for travel that offer this type of protection. you don't need all of your primary or secondary powers nor the concealment pool or the medicine pool or whatever pools you are taking that is making your build so tight. use mid's and plan your build out if you don't already.

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The problem, there, Quint is that B_I Already does that. She goes through and plots out her whole build in advance. Including what IOS to slot at what levels, which slots to add when and where, and so forth.

She doesn't have any room -left- for taking other powers or slotting them 'appropriately' She's too busy min-maxing everything else. So this becomes a hole in otherwise nigh-impenetrable armor.

And when you've got enemies like Malta who now have multiple holds and stuns Carrying Break Frees doesn't cut it. You've got to make a Status Protection Pool so she can take 4 powers out of it to defend... herself....

Control effects are binary because they -must- be binary. If a controller had an intensely powerful 'Slow Hold' or Multi-Phase hold he could hold AVs and so forth.... But he'd die.

By a slow hold I'm referring to what 4E D&D is doing for Death Effects. Initially you're slowed for a short duration, then immobilized for a short duration, then held.

If, in CoH a controller were to perform a "Slow Hold" the enemy would launch all of it's attacks in it's normal pattern, unhindered by the Slow or Immob effect for the purposes of ranged damage. The Controller would need a high defensive capability to survive -until- the hold itself landed.

So Yes. Holds -have- to be Binary. Either you're held instantly or you resist, instantly. Or you die and the foe gets held while you're face-planted on the cave floor.

Scrappers, Brutes, Stalkers, and Tankers all have Passive Defenses. The defense is active for a set length of time (Clicks for 90 seconds, Toggles refresh every few seconds) Dominators, Controllers, Defenders, Masterminds, and Corruptors all have ACTIVE DEFENSES. In the form of debuffs and mez effects. Rather than increase their own defense against attacks they kill their enemy's ability to survive.

Blasters have neither active or passive defense. They have only aggression and have to put down enemies -quickly- before they, themselves, are killed. Or they should have someone else on the team to actively defend them.

TLR Version
Control Effects -must- be binary if Control Types are to survive the first volley of fire. The different Archetypes have different ways of defeating Mez effects. And Break Frees are the best global mez resistance.

-Rachel-

Edited to remove an offensive word meaning a break or crack in armor. And also to add that I showed my 'True Colors' by telling people that using exploits is against the rules. This, of course, makes me a 'Dev Lover' and Brown Noser. but whatever.

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I'm sorry, but, really? My suggestion was really that bad?


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No, it wasn't that your idea was that bad. It's not a good idea, but it's not particularly needed either. It's just that there are a great number of people who get off on flaming people new to the Suggestions forum. It's sickening to me, and I really wish moderation would do something about it.

Honestly, I don't agree with your idea and I was going to simply ignore it and let it drift to the bottom. However, the trolls who inhabit this forum couldn't let you off that easy.

TO THE TROLLS: No simply disagreeing with an idea isn't trolling. Calling people names, suggesting things about the OP's intelligence or character, all of which I've seen in this post, is trolling.

The OP tried to defend his idea as best he could and has been a lot more polite that most of you.

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B_I just drop it. if you are o n teams that aren't using their powers the way they should be then maybe you should be looking for other teams. maybe you should also think about taking some of the pool powers for travel that offer this type of protection. you don't need all of your primary or secondary powers nor the concealment pool or the medicine pool or whatever pools you are taking that is making your build so tight. use mid's and plan your build out if you don't already.

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I find this post laugh-out-loud funny! I haven't seen this many assumptions pulled out of thin air since the last time Claws here posted.... Never said ONE BIT of this stuff. Never said anything specific about my builds other than that I do not ever choose Super Jump, and that I do pick up Fitness. You really know NOTHING about how I build.

And considering that Acrobatics is an extremely END-heavy power, I'd need Stamina more than ever, right? Let me guess: "If Acro takes a lot of END then you need to lrn2ply."

Next I am certain I will hear orders to slow my attack rate in order not to strain my endurance-needs; that's usually the next arrow out of this argumentive quiver. *eyeroll*

When I feel a need to ask you for build advice, I'll PM you. Till then, get over yourself.

*shrug*

You have options available for dealing with mez, from Acrobatics and Combat Jumping all the way down to a simple Break Free.

If you choose not to use any of them it's no one's fault but your own. I'm done with this ridiculous argument.

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Actually I think Break Frees are useful.
Right click on three same size and type inspirations to change them into a Breakfree.
Making a new Pool of break free powers is pointless.
-Rachel-

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hmmm well according to your logic then these powers are also pointless -
stamina - this power isnt needed because we have blue inspirations. when your end gets low, just pop those.
who needs a whole new power.
accuracy boosting powers - who needs these when you have yellow inspirations. lets get rid of these unneeded powers also since inspirations do the same thing
damage boosting powers - well again totally not needed since there are red inspirations.
rez powers - get rid of these too since we have awakens. empath and other healer types should just carry awakens and pass them out when needed.

while we are at it, may as well get rid of defense powers since we can just use purple and orange inspirations.
wow who would have thought there are so many pointless powers that arnt needed because we have inspirations?
lets get rid of all these powers.
after all, who wants our characters to be self sufficient its much better to be forced to rely on inspirations for our survival.

Heh, how about that?

I just ran a Freakshow mission on Unyielding with my level 33 Fire/TA controller. There were multiple Stunner and Juicer Freaks in every spawn. Since I was being proactive and mezzing them before they could mez me, I got hit with exactly ONE sleep, and that was from a rezzer that I had left in another room who came up behind me.

I have no status protection at all, and yet I don't seem to be having much difficulty with status effects. Could it be because I'm using my powers intelligently? No, couldn't be! I mean, who does THAT?

Seriously, if status effects are such a big problem when you're playing a controller, defender, or blaster, maybe you should play a different AT.

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Actually I think Break Frees are useful.
Right click on three same size and type inspirations to change them into a Breakfree.
Making a new Pool of break free powers is pointless.
-Rachel-

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hmmm well according to your logic then these powers are also pointless -
stamina - this power isnt needed because we have blue inspirations. when your end gets low, just pop those.
who needs a whole new power.
accuracy boosting powers - who needs these when you have yellow inspirations. lets get rid of these unneeded powers also since inspirations do the same thing
damage boosting powers - well again totally not needed since there are red inspirations.
rez powers - get rid of these too since we have awakens. empath and other healer types should just carry awakens and pass them out when needed.

while we are at it, may as well get rid of defense powers since we can just use purple and orange inspirations.
wow who would have thought there are so many pointless powers that arnt needed because we have inspirations?
lets get rid of all these powers.
after all, who wants our characters to be self sufficient its much better to be forced to rely on inspirations for our survival.

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You're right! My Gods! Why didn't I see it before?!

Let's also get rid of EVERY ranged attack set and every Melee attack set and replace them with one single target ranged attack, one targeted AoE attack, one cone AoE attack, and one Ground Target AoE attack! And for melee we can have one single target attack, one PBAOE, and one Melee ranged Cone!

Hiding in absurdity doesn't work. I tried it once.

There's no reason to take Developer time off what they're currently working on to fix this supposed 'Hole'.

-Rachel-

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Let's also get rid of EVERY ranged attack set and every Melee attack set and replace them with one single target ranged attack, one targeted AoE attack, one cone AoE attack, and one Ground Target AoE attack! And for melee we can have one single target attack, one PBAOE, and one Melee ranged Cone!


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hmmm sorry but you fail. I have poked a hole in your logic and you have failed to produce a good response.

getting rid of all attacks and having just one attack has nothing to do with the logic you are tying to use for not having pointless powers that can be replaced by using inspirations.
such as why did the devs make damage boosting powers when we could just use red inspirations ect.

now if there was a ranged attack inspiration that when used would blast the enemy, then i would agree.
get rid of ranged attacks because players can just use inspirations instead. this is exactly the kind of logic you are tying to use about not having a status effect resist power.

it looks like you are trying to hide in absurdity....

You seem to have missed the point of my post. The comment about hiding in absurdity in -my- post was a sardonic note that the previous paragraphs had been sarcasm.

Removing powers and sets from the game is not the same as adding new sets to the game which are, functionally, pointless. They have a theoretical use and a theoretical point. And I'm sure -some- characters would have some of the powers in the pool.

But by and large it would be a waste of Developer time to create.

You Fail to impress anyone but yourself.

-Rachel-