I like this idea. My mind controller is only level 32, so I don't have much experience with Mass Confusion yet. But with a plant controller now within a bar of 32 using a splattroller build and the wonderful seeds of confusion power, I have a feeling I won't be quite impressed with Mind's AoE confuse (I hope I'm wrong on that).
I don't think I'd want to lose Mass Confusion completely. Maybe a cone version earlier in the powerset? I do like the idea of stacking a confuse on top of mass confusion, and Mind is the only controller set that can do that.
But I really like this idea. The power could be called "Brainwash" or something like that.
Not wanting to rain on your parade, but...
This idea has cropped up quite a few times over the years. It's an interesting one, but runs into a few key sticking points.
* The confused pet would have to suddenly adopt a pet-like AI so it could follow you around. I can't see the dev's wanting to code all that for one power, since it raises lots of fun questions like 'what happens to the AI when it wears off?'
* It'd come at the expense of something Mind already has, which would mean making significant changes to people's already-existing characters.
* Mind has done fine without a pet for years now.
The concensus usually comes out as 'it's nice having a set that doesn't have a pet, if you want a pet for a controller pick any one of the other sets'
Illusion works very well for the psychic-types who want a pet.
I think I got the general summary of how these posts usually work out. Let see if this one goes in any different direction.
Brainwash is a good name!
I like that 
[ QUOTE ]
Not wanting to rain on your parade, but...
This idea has cropped up quite a few times over the years. It's an interesting one, but runs into a few key sticking points.
* The confused pet would have to suddenly adopt a pet-like AI so it could follow you around. I can't see the dev's wanting to code all that for one power, since it raises lots of fun questions like 'what happens to the AI when it wears off?'
* It'd come at the expense of something Mind already has, which would mean making significant changes to people's already-existing characters.
* Mind has done fine without a pet for years now.
The concensus usually comes out as 'it's nice having a set that doesn't have a pet, if you want a pet for a controller pick any one of the other sets'
Illusion works very well for the psychic-types who want a pet.
I think I got the general summary of how these posts usually work out. Let see if this one goes in any different direction.
[/ QUOTE ]
yeah, I figured it had come up, it must have, you know?
As far as "what happens when it where's off" it would have the duration of a typical spawned pet, inability to create 2 etc.
*shrug*
Wouldn't it just work like the "betrayal" function when an NPC ally stabs you in the back?
It would be a great toggle. If your end runs out, your little Manchurian Candidate snaps out of it and attacks you!
I just can't get into Mind as a set. It looks borked as all get out, especially since Plant gets a mass confuse at a lower level. That pretty much stole the one signature thing Mind had going for it. So yeah, I would disagree that "Mind has done fine without a pet for years now."
Stay Gold, Paragon. Stay Gold.
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
[ QUOTE ]
I just can't get into Mind as a set. It looks borked as all get out, especially since Plant gets a mass confuse at a lower level. That pretty much stole the one signature thing Mind had going for it. So yeah, I would disagree that "Mind has done fine without a pet for years now."
[/ QUOTE ]
Mind is a very powerful set in part because it does NOT have a pet. The pet in most Contol sets is a crutch that opens the door to soloing. Mind can solo out of the gate without waiting for level 32, and still manages to keep its team utility. I'd discuss further but we just got done with one of these "Mind sucks compared to Plant because of Mass Confusion" discussions.
[ QUOTE ]
Not wanting to rain on your parade, but...
This idea has cropped up quite a few times over the years. It's an interesting one, but runs into a few key sticking points.
* The confused pet would have to suddenly adopt a pet-like AI so it could follow you around. I can't see the dev's wanting to code all that for one power, since it raises lots of fun questions like 'what happens to the AI when it wears off?'
* It'd come at the expense of something Mind already has, which would mean making significant changes to people's already-existing characters.
* Mind has done fine without a pet for years now.
The concensus usually comes out as 'it's nice having a set that doesn't have a pet, if you want a pet for a controller pick any one of the other sets'
Illusion works very well for the psychic-types who want a pet.
I think I got the general summary of how these posts usually work out. Let see if this one goes in any different direction.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats all true, but screw it - its still a good idea.
Yes, mind has done well without a pet, but that doesn't meen it wouldn't do better with one.
Yes, the thing would be hard to code, but far from impossible. ANd yes you would have to be careful with when it wore off, but there's nothing wrong with that - requiring players to think is a good thing.
The bigget sticking point is what powers you would remove. As others have surely pointed out (I havent read most of the thread), Mind is rare, and blessed, in that it doesn't really have any "if you take this power, you are an idiot" options, or redundant powers, that could be easily eliminated to make room for something cool and loose little in the equation. I tend to think Telekinesis is the obvious choice (MH would be a second place idea, but the doms running the LRSF would muder us in our sleep). Its useful, but only situationaly useful, and it requires a lot of practice to use decently. Ironically the current tier 9, Mass Confusion, would be terrible to remove and replace wiht this, since cycling MC and TD is the only way a mind controller can achieve the every-battle hard control that most Controllers and Dominators take for granted with their stuns.
[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't it just work like the "betrayal" function when an NPC ally stabs you in the back?
It would be a great toggle. If your end runs out, your little Manchurian Candidate snaps out of it and attacks you!
[/ QUOTE ]
Win!
Also mind is a better sooloer than plant, with its wider aray of both single-target control,a nd single-target damage. Its also a better PvP set. But on a team, in PvE, you're right, there is no question at all: you are better off with a plant controller than a mind controller of equivalent build expense and skill.
[ QUOTE ]
I have a lvl 50 mind/ta
[/ QUOTE ]
I have been ruminating on starting up one of these for my next troller
Personally I thank the devs that I don't have to log on every day and baby sit some over hyped, low damage, simple minded companion which only serves to make me look weaker for my reliance upon him.
In all seriousness, the idea of proper "Mind Control", as in charming an enemy to fight for you, long term is a good one but something that has been suggested many times and will unlikely ever happen. The way I would like to implement it, is that we get the ability to charm any minion we choose and then have a seperate power to summon as we desire.
Having said that, Mind Control is not lacking, if I could think of a tier 10 power, I could be more imaginative then a pet. Mind's defining style IS being the petless controller. They fight alone and don't need a companion.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not wanting to rain on your parade, but...
This idea has cropped up quite a few times over the years. It's an interesting one, but runs into a few key sticking points.
* The confused pet would have to suddenly adopt a pet-like AI so it could follow you around. I can't see the dev's wanting to code all that for one power, since it raises lots of fun questions like 'what happens to the AI when it wears off?'
* It'd come at the expense of something Mind already has, which would mean making significant changes to people's already-existing characters.
* Mind has done fine without a pet for years now.
The concensus usually comes out as 'it's nice having a set that doesn't have a pet, if you want a pet for a controller pick any one of the other sets'
Illusion works very well for the psychic-types who want a pet.
I think I got the general summary of how these posts usually work out. Let see if this one goes in any different direction.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats all true, but screw it - its still a good idea.
Yes, mind has done well without a pet, but that doesn't meen it wouldn't do better with one.
Yes, the thing would be hard to code, but far from impossible. ANd yes you would have to be careful with when it wore off, but there's nothing wrong with that - requiring players to think is a good thing.
The bigget sticking point is what powers you would remove. As others have surely pointed out (I havent read most of the thread), Mind is rare, and blessed, in that it doesn't really have any "if you take this power, you are an idiot" options, or redundant powers, that could be easily eliminated to make room for something cool and loose little in the equation. I tend to think Telekinesis is the obvious choice (MH would be a second place idea, but the doms running the LRSF would muder us in our sleep). Its useful, but only situationaly useful, and it requires a lot of practice to use decently. Ironically the current tier 9, Mass Confusion, would be terrible to remove and replace wiht this, since cycling MC and TD is the only way a mind controller can achieve the every-battle hard control that most Controllers and Dominators take for granted with their stuns.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with you on many points. I think people who don't like Mind Control should stop trying to suggest stupid things and find a set they do like. The game has plenty of control sets available, if you want something with a pet or a more "cookie cutter" style of controlling you don't have to look very far.
[ QUOTE ]
Mind idea
[/ QUOTE ]
no... Doesn't matter what the idea is, nothing in mind should change... well... perhaps TK should have its end cut a little, but I know that's not your idea.
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
My Mind/Thorn Dom has had a pet since Villains launched, she got it at level 6... and it's an awesome pet usually. Like an EB, a buff-bot, or a high damage pet.. whatever's available. There's always a great pet waiting around the corner.
On another note, what power would you cut to get a pet power anyway. The entire set is 5 star powers in some situation or other.
[ QUOTE ]
... On another note, what power would you cut to get a pet power anyway. The entire set is 5 star powers in some situation or other.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the biggest problem with the idea, which I like, but I just don't think there's anything to take away to make room for it. As I said earlier, it wouldn't be worth losing Mass Confusion (and the ability to stack confuse).
My appreciation of the idea was not because I think Mind is weak (without a true pet); I just think its a neat idea.
As I said, I don't think mind needs any changes at all, I just thought I'd put my idea out there.
I love Mind to death, it's the only controller I've tolerated to 50, and I wouldnt change it, to be honest I like to see more powers added to all the sets so we can have sort of a "kheldian selection" type thing. Lots of powers open up at various levels, leading to more different builds.
[ QUOTE ]
Here it goes:
[/ QUOTE ]
Castle creates a new Mastermind called the Mind Controller.
Rather than summoning the pets, you apply a target AoE confuse toggle to the appropriate ranking of critters you find yourself faced with. END costs are based on the number of targets affected (max: 3/2/1, to match other masterminds). You won't be able to equip/upgrade your "pets" while they're confused, and you won't have the ability to "command" your confused "pets" like other masterminds can ... but your attacks will have a "Taunt Confused Foes" component to them similar to Gauntlet for Tankers, which will give you (some) ability to "direct traffic by 'designating' targets" via your attack powers.
Your confused "pets" are of course damaged by player allies, just like normal ... so expect to be recasting your toggles often on fresh victims a lot as you move through hostile territory.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
I'd actually been tinkering with an idea for an "Astral Form" power. It would work something like this.
A toggle, when you turn it on, it creates a duplicate of your character that will just sit there (or kneel, or whatever). This double would have the same health as you, and would remain in place. This is the body you leave behind as your "actual" character becomes the Astral Form.
In Astral Form, you would be Phased (a la Phase Shift) and hovering. Additionally, you would have 1/2 of your normal health. This is because you CAN attack in your astral form. Your Phase effect would suppress if you attack or interact with the environment (eg. glowies). While Phase is suppressed, you would have massive Resistance and Defense bonuses, and your damage output would be reduced by half. Holds and other similar powers would work normally. Buffs and such would also be halved.
If your body (the double) takes damage, your astral form would too. If your astral form is defeated, or if you turn the power off, it would detoggle the power (obviously), and you would be transported back to the spot where your body had been left. Your health and endurance will be reduced as with Unstoppable (ie. no endurance, nearly no health).
So, as an example, Dr. Solomon, a Controller activates the power as he enters a mission. His body remains behind as he goes unseen through the map. He finds a glowie and attacks the guards, doing half his usual damage. He defeats them, and uses the glowie.
This spawns an ambush at the front door. They encounter his body and attack it. All damage it takes is also applied to Solomon in his astral form. They reduce it to half health, which defeats the astral form. The power detoggles, and Solomon is transported back to his body, with no endurance and little health, and under attack.
Had there been no ambush, he could have turned off the power and been transported back to the body instantly, with no endurance and reduced health.
This is just my first thought on this. I'm still tinkering with the idea.
I am just begining to read the firums, which i am LOVING BTW..what excatly is a "splatroller"?
Personally, I think this has always been fun to discuss, even though I don't in the end like the idea, knowing what I do about Mind.
Still, meh, it's fun to discuss. Never been sure why people call anything they themselves have discussed previously "stupid."
BLZB: A splattroller is a controller build that focuses on maximizing AoE damage, at the exepense of the AT's (long-ago, far away, oldschool) reputation as a defensive powerhouse. Considering how minimal debt is.
A well-designed Fire or Plant + Storm Summoning or Radiation Emission build is pretty much automatically a splattroller, but the playstyle's very different from a surgical control/utility (think Mind/Emp) or massive defense (think earth/FF) build.)
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mind idea
[/ QUOTE ]
no... Doesn't matter what the idea is, nothing in mind should change... well... perhaps TK should have its end cut a little, but I know that's not your idea.
[/ QUOTE ]
Confuse, Mass Hypnosis, and Mass Confusion don't cause aggro. Please don't give Mind a Cat, I mean Pet, to herd.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
[ QUOTE ]
I'd actually been tinkering with an idea for an "Astral Form" power. It would work something like this.
A toggle, when you turn it on, it creates a duplicate of your character that will just sit there (or kneel, or whatever). This double would have the same health as you, and would remain in place. This is the body you leave behind as your "actual" character becomes the Astral Form.
In Astral Form, you would be Phased (a la Phase Shift) and hovering. Additionally, you would have 1/2 of your normal health. This is because you CAN attack in your astral form. Your Phase effect would suppress if you attack or interact with the environment (eg. glowies). While Phase is suppressed, you would have massive Resistance and Defense bonuses, and your damage output would be reduced by half. Holds and other similar powers would work normally. Buffs and such would also be halved.
If your body (the double) takes damage, your astral form would too. If your astral form is defeated, or if you turn the power off, it would detoggle the power (obviously), and you would be transported back to the spot where your body had been left. Your health and endurance will be reduced as with Unstoppable (ie. no endurance, nearly no health).
So, as an example, Dr. Solomon, a Controller activates the power as he enters a mission. His body remains behind as he goes unseen through the map. He finds a glowie and attacks the guards, doing half his usual damage. He defeats them, and uses the glowie.
This spawns an ambush at the front door. They encounter his body and attack it. All damage it takes is also applied to Solomon in his astral form. They reduce it to half health, which defeats the astral form. The power detoggles, and Solomon is transported back to his body, with no endurance and little health, and under attack.
Had there been no ambush, he could have turned off the power and been transported back to the body instantly, with no endurance and reduced health.
This is just my first thought on this. I'm still tinkering with the idea.
[/ QUOTE ]
I scripted an ability along these lines in Freedom Force and it worked rather well. It was of course, a very different game - single player where you control a group of up to 4 heroes from an overhead camera. As such, having an inert body left behind made more sense because you could go and check on it whenever you wnated or leave a character behind to guard the body even.
In CoH things are kind of different, kind of similar. You could have a teammate guard your body, but thats asking a bit much of another human player.
My biggest concern about an ability like this would be that most missions dont spawn an ambush by the door as you describe. For over 90% of PvE this reduces down to the optimum startegy being to check your body in by the door and travel through the mission in astral form. Either that or the penalties you build in like half damage are too high and you never use the ability. Maybe the problem is that most CoH content is just not variable enough.
I really like this idea though. Nice thinking, Ultimo.
Glad you like it. I was thinking of it as a Tier 9 power, one you might use once on any mission, much like Unstoppable or Elude, or something like that.
I don't know, maybe the 1/2 damage and health penalty is too much, maybe too little. That could be determined and balanced by a little playtesting.
Anyway, just thinking out loud. It was actually something I originally thought of for a Telepathy secondary (so you could have a Mind Control/Telepathy Controller, for example).
But Mind Control -has- a pet, at level 6, called Confuse. Lasts a long time, doesn't agro, and has uses other than being a pet.
Mind Control is -seriously- fine. It is probably one of the better control sets and doesn't have to wait until level 32 to get playable. Asking it to have a pet means lengthening the recharge times on their holds, or lowering their duration, or killing their accuracy, or their damage. Frankly, no serious Mind Controller wants to exchange -any- of their powers for that.
[ QUOTE ]
But Mind Control -has- a pet, at level 6, called Confuse. Lasts a long time, doesn't agro, and has uses other than being a pet.
Mind Control is -seriously- fine. It is probably one of the better control sets and doesn't have to wait until level 32 to get playable. Asking it to have a pet means lengthening the recharge times on their holds, or lowering their duration, or killing their accuracy, or their damage. Frankly, no serious Mind Controller wants to exchange -any- of their powers for that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Word. Don't change Mind Control AT ALL unless you want to RAISE the accuracy on the AoEs. :P
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
I'll preface this post with an warning: I like mind the way it is, I have a lvl 50 mind/ta, and I love it to pieces, and I'm not calling for this change necessarily, just an idea that hit me, and I wanted to release it upon the forums.
Here it goes:
There have long been complaints about Mind's lack of pet, and somewhat "lackluster" (I disagree) tier 9 power. This lead me to wonder, "what could still make mind unique, but satisfy those who want a pet?" And it hit me. A long term, slow recharge, single target enemy confuse power. Effectively, it would make your foe, your pet. It would be unstackable so bosses and higher would be out of the question, making Lieuts your best shot (Or buffers/debuffers). This would lead to interesting pet strategy, and the user's choice as to what kind of person they want at their side.
Granted, I'm sure creation of this power, making sure enemies then read the pet as a target would be tough, and probably outside the scope of possibility, but I'd sure like to see how it might work.
Also, pets would die after the mission ends, like the other controller pets, being zone dependant.
Anyway, just thought I'd toss that out there, dunno if anyone has said it before, probably have.
Back to work!