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Never mind that Energy Doms are clearly doing much more damage than the other Secondaries
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... and then the six Doms fought more than one foe...
Seriously, Energy is only the king of single target damage, and not by much.
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Well...........
If you introduce AoE into that, you're going to raise End efficiency. Because the more foes you hit with an AoE, the more damage you do, but you still pay the same End. So if you are hitting only one target with an AoE, that is clearly a waste of Endurance, however, if you hit 10 targets with an AoE, then that attack is WAY more efficient than 10 separate single target attacks to hit those 10 targets.
So one could say that the End inefficiency which Energy users are reporting (and even Psi users) is due to their emphasis on single target attacks. Those with greater AoE damage will be spending less End.
The point I was making, though, is that Energy is doing damage above and beyond the boost in base damage from 0.65/0.75 to 0.95/1.05. That is not costing them any more Endurance. The additional damage they do beyond that IS costing them more Endurance. However, their damage prior to the changes was extremely weak, and their End costs were also extremely weak, too. Therefore, as long as they aren't doing any more damage than any other Secondary, they shouldn't be spending any more Endurance than any other Secondary.
To be perfectly honest, most of the comparisons have not been between set to set. It has been mostly how the set behaved before, to how it acts now. Comparing the sets to each other you have to kind of make a guess. Figure what they were before, adjust for how they seem to be acting now, and plug that into the original comparison.
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It is self fulfilling prophecy. The idea that they have end issues has gotten out and now people expect to have end issues. And they do.
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Skewed way to mention that. I have end issues now, because I do in fact have them. It's not perception. As i've said repeatedly in terms of Psy Assault, i have 1 End slotted towards each Control And Attack power, Drain Psyche, Power Sink and Stamina and my IO Sets while having +Rech also carry a lot of +Rec and +End. While playing a modified version of the way I used to, meaning spamming less PSW and Fire Cages to lessen End burn I'm noticing a harder End bite then previous. Now I got it, balance reasons and all there should be more and I agree, I just thinks that it's a tad too much is all.
Not saying I can't live with it, hardly, it's just before I was pigish using powers. Knowing that it's not the same with the new issue I started to modify my usual haphazard way, meaning less use of AoE Imm and such, and noticed that I needed to rely on Domination to recover End, even though I have more then enough powers, slotting and sets to compensate.
So to reiterate, I do see and feel a bit of a problem in high end play in terms of Psi Assault. It's not imagined. I can deal since I play a Permadom, but most out there don't. I hope the End thing isn't a standard through the other Power sets but I'll see for myself on the weekend.
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It is self fulfilling prophecy. The idea that they have end issues has gotten out and now people expect to have end issues. And they do.
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Skewed way to mention that. I have end issues now, because I do in fact have them. It's not perception. As i've said repeatedly in terms of Psy Assault, i have 1 End slotted towards each Control And Attack power, Drain Psyche, Power Sink and Stamina and my IO Sets while having +Rech also carry a lot of +Rec and +End. While playing a modified version of the way I used to, meaning spamming less PSW and Fire Cages to lessen End burn I'm noticing a harder End bite then previous. Now I got it, balance reasons and all there should be more and I agree, I just thinks that it's a tad too much is all.
Not saying I can't live with it, hardly, it's just before I was pigish using powers. Knowing that it's not the same with the new issue I started to modify my usual haphazard way, meaning less use of AoE Imm and such, and noticed that I needed to rely on Domination to recover End, even though I have more then enough powers, slotting and sets to compensate.
So to reiterate, I do see and feel a bit of a problem in high end play in terms of Psi Assault. It's not imagined. I can deal since I play a Permadom, but most out there don't. I hope the End thing isn't a standard through the other Power sets but I'll see for myself on the weekend.
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Was in reference specifically to /ice as it shouldn't be changed, but in general yes - if you expect to have a problem it will be a problem.
Yes the higher rate of end burn is prominent across all of the sets except /elec and /thorn (only cause it is so slow each attack could drain half a bar and you'd still recover before the next attack 
).
I don't think it is problematic for most of the combos relative to the other AT's, but it is certainly much more noticeable compared to how doms were.
I'm not so sure it's not problematic. As a person who's tried all of the ATs to a high level and played long enough to know which enemies to hit in a mob first, to me this isn't a problem. I know how to slot right, what powers to get etc. But then, this change didn't have folks like me in mind. I'm saying I almost have End issues but it's because I know what Im doing that it doesn't catch me. I just hope overall these changes don't necessitate a character to have to IO just to keep it fun. To have 3 End Recovery powers, slot for End Red, IO Sets and still need Domination to come up so you don't crash seems odd to me is all.
Again I digress and will keep my hole shut up till I get the chance to play my other Doms.
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Skewed way to mention that. I have end issues now, because I do in fact have them. It's not perception. As i've said repeatedly in terms of Psy Assault, i have 1 End slotted towards each Control And Attack power, Drain Psyche, Power Sink and Stamina and my IO Sets while having +Rech also carry a lot of +Rec and +End. While playing a modified version of the way I used to, meaning spamming less PSW and Fire Cages to lessen End burn I'm noticing a harder End bite then previous. Now I got it, balance reasons and all there should be more and I agree, I just thinks that it's a tad too much is all.
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I don't understand... There's no justification for wanting to be able to spam Fire Cages (15.6 end) and PSW (18.51 end). Those two combined will take up about 1/3 of your endurance bar in one cycle. That's whats taking up the chunk of your endurance, not the subtle increase (1-3 points) in your regular attacks. Am I missing something?
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I don't understand... There's no justification for wanting to be able to spam Fire Cages (15.6 end) and PSW (18.51 end). Those two combined will take up about 1/3 of your endurance bar in one cycle. That's whats taking up the chunk of your endurance, not the subtle increase (1-3 points) in your regular attacks. Am I missing something?
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No I was saying I used to do that pre i15 to nearly burn out which I agree was excessive but would do for the fun of it. Now I'm playing much more frugal but notice nearly the same, actually somwhat worse, burn then when I was being piggish about it before i15.
I'm not saying i want to go back to the way it was before, just I figured if I did in fact ease up a lot, have all the stuff I do, and find myself popping just as many blues and requiring Domination for End, it seems odd to me is all. I wonder what would happen if I didn't have as many Set's that offered +End & +Rec is all.
You would really be sucking wind if you didnt have set's with +end & +rech. Count your lucky stars you already have them 
Psionic Assault is the one set that's really going to notice an increased endurance cost because of the change to Psychic Shockwave. Every other set will see an increased end/activation which will account for some increased end cost. Additionally permadoms are getting the same damage for more end, so will notice more end burn.
Too bad psi doesn't have any endurance management powers, eh. Us poor Psi doms...
Active (Freedom): Setna (Ice/Psi Dom), Arram (WP/KM Tank), Tesmiel (Elec/SS Tank), Astredax (Robot/Dark Mastermind), Operative Vidali (melee fortunata)
Retired (Virtue): Gaav (Inv/EM Tank), Baqra (Fire/SS Tank)
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Too bad psi doesn't have any endurance management powers, eh. Us poor Psi doms...
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Lmao
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Too bad psi doesn't have any endurance management powers, eh. Us poor Psi doms...
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Good one.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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Psionic Assault is the one set that's really going to notice an increased endurance cost because of the change to Psychic Shockwave.
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I agree. And although for the most part the talk about the perception of End increase was directed to those who shouldn't see a change, or even a decrease, like Ice and Electric, there really is a perception involved in the sets that ARE using End now. The problem is, they weren't using that kind of End before, and you have not slotted to compensate for it, nor are you used to it.
Previously, Electric was as long recharge, high damage on its melee attacks as the other sets are now. Yet, no one complained about that. There had to be people who were using melee-intensive Electric builds, but you didn't hear any of them complain, "I am using WAY more Endurance than other Dominators. It's totally unmanagable, I can't play like this." No, what they said was that they were doing way more damage, and Electric was one of the best Assault sets for damage dealing.
Once you get used to Psi, or Energy, it will be the same thing. Yes, the End cost will be higher, but because you are getting more benefit out of it, in the greater damage, that won't be a problem. End cost can be compensated for a lot better than lack of damage can be compensated for.
Because you still have your old slotting, though, and are still using your experience of the pre-change behavior of the set, you're running out of End. There IS a higher End cost, that's not just perception, but you are more aware of it than if you'd just come to the higher End cost cold, with no previous experience.
Hmm, i think I've stated several times though that I'm not using old slotting having changed to a more End friendly build, along with 3 End Recovery powers, along with toning down of play Style to be more frugal and noticing an end burn that I believe if not for the factors I just mentioned, would be a pain to deal with.
I know, i know minority here, but thats how I feel and my experience. I'm glad i have so much +End, +Rec, +Rech Sets otherwise I'd hate to play having to rely on Blue Inspires to keep the new level of offense I got going.
TBH, I don't think villains have as much to complain about regarding endurance than heroes do in the first place: all villain ATs have ways of managing endurance that are practically inherent (or literally inherent) built-in (Brutes do more DPE the higher their Fury, Corrs get buff sets and a bit of help from Scourge, Doms get Domination, MMs hardly need to use endurance at all if they so wish, Stalkers have a playstyle that often encourages spacing, plus AS is extremely DPE friendly).
My experience with my new lowbie Mind/Nrg is that I'm doing better than almost all my other characters in the low levels regarding endurance: I have yet to hit rest once. Between the safety of Mind's mezzes and Domination being up any time I need an end refill (which has thankfully so far co-incided well with when I needed the extra control), things have gone extremely easily.
The concept was actually originally Mind/Elec but I shifted it to /Nrg because I wanted a more ranged-oriented character, and Power Push's new damage lets /Nrg fit the bill.
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Stalkers have a playstyle that often encourages spacing
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Whoa. Uh.. no. Stalker = Scrapper with a badass alpha.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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Stalkers have a playstyle that often encourages spacing
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Whoa. Uh.. no. Stalker = Scrapper with a badass alpha.
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I forgot to mention that that's more in the low levels, where end is at more of a premium. At higher levels, it honestly generallly doesn't matter--between crits, AS, SOs (or IOs), and Stamina, it's still all good.
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Stalkers have a playstyle that often encourages spacing
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Whoa. Uh.. no. Stalker = Scrapper with a badass alpha.
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I forgot to mention that that's more in the low levels, where end is at more of a premium. At higher levels, it honestly generallly doesn't matter--between crits, AS, SOs (or IOs), and Stamina, it's still all good.
[/ QUOTE ]I won't lie, one of my stalkers got through a staminaless 30 levels because I was always reading something when I was interested in playing him.
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It is self fulfilling prophecy. The idea that they have end issues has gotten out and now people expect to have end issues. And they do.
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And of course, now that the rumor has gotten out that the increased End cost is to pay for the increased damage FOR ALL DOMINATORS, that's exactly what people see. Never mind that Energy Doms are clearly doing much more damage than the other Secondaries, all they see is "I've got more damage, it must be because Doms got more damage".
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exactly. I think there was still a lot more tweaking that should have happened to the assault sets, but were burried under the overwhelmong "/eng is awesome" landslide.
All well, everthing is still very playable. My perma's don't feel nerfed and leveling so far seems to be less of a drag.
IMO the changes don't really do much, but maybe that is a good thing. I was fearing the worst from Castle from his past work, so to escape relatively unscathed is actually a pretty big win for me and my doms.
I sincerly hope a LOT of people start playing and sticking with doms, I'd hate for so much time/energy to have been spent for no real purpose.
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Nevermind the Time/Energy, what about the Grav/Energy or Ice/Energy?!