[ QUOTE ]
You didn't correct me ... you just illustrated that you don't know how to play a Fire Tanker in an ITF.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you quote the entire post for a pointless quip? If all you're going to do is throw around ad hominems while I correct you, at least remove the wall of text! I can ignore pettiness, but scrolling down a page of quote to get to it wastes my time. 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my fire tank must be in a league of its own then *shrugs*
[/ QUOTE ]
with the amount of influence it would take to build it again, yes it is.
Mine will not be as good as yours because I do not have the time or influence. Dont misconstrue this hate because of a have/have not ordeal. I am very much a capitalist and believe you work for or towards what you have. You have earned your tank and its capabilities and I think it gives goals for those looking for better.
[/ QUOTE ]
well my fire tank is 5 years old..he was the first toon i ever made..my first 50 and my main so he would get the most attention like any other main really...maybe thats just the luck of the first toon.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my fire tank must be in a league of its own then *shrugs*
[/ QUOTE ]
with the amount of influence it would take to build it again, yes it is.
Mine will not be as good as yours because I do not have the time or influence. Dont misconstrue this hate because of a have/have not ordeal. I am very much a capitalist and believe you work for or towards what you have. You have earned your tank and its capabilities and I think it gives goals for those looking for better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tons of purples and +recovery doesn't do much for his survivability.
BTW just to dispel the notion that it takes a ton of influence to build a toon ... the only expensive part to building a Fire Tanker's defense is the Obliterations, which don't cost hundreds of millions of influence.
*BUT* if you were set on a build that took 300 million influence to build, it would take the *average* player (any player really) about 20 hours game play (for some that's less then a week ... for the more casual players 2-3 weeks) on a less then optimal team to farm up that kind of influence (that's 15mil inf per hour btw).
The rest of the earning ethics through your belief in capitalism isn't relevant in the least to the discussion.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You didn't correct me ... you just illustrated that you don't know how to play a Fire Tanker in an ITF.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you quote the entire post for a pointless quip? If all you're going to do is throw around ad hominems while I correct you, at least remove the wall of text! I can ignore pettiness, but scrolling down a page of quote to get to it wastes my time.
[/ QUOTE ]
I figured by making you scroll I saved 1.7 people from dying in one of your ITFs 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You didn't correct me ... you just illustrated that you don't know how to play a Fire Tanker in an ITF.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you quote the entire post for a pointless quip? If all you're going to do is throw around ad hominems while I correct you, at least remove the wall of text! I can ignore pettiness, but scrolling down a page of quote to get to it wastes my time.
[/ QUOTE ]
I figured by making you scroll I saved 1.7 people from dying in one of your ITFs
[/ QUOTE ]
Ahh, more pointless quips! 
In truth I was rather surprised by the death count that run (shield brutes just weren't able to handle agro), but that's nothing to a Smurph ITF where he's actively trying to kill his teammates and still finishes in an hour. The entire ITF probably would have been done 20m earlier had I thought to grab insps before going in; mission 2 took a bit longer as I didn't have the tools to solo more than 4 of the crystals. Still, for a 7 man challenge level 4 ITF with 4 folks under 50, 1:15 is fine, and deaths weren't exactly a big deal to anyone involved.
Most Brutes I've seen make horrible Tanker substitutes ... mostly from the standpoint that they're built and played like Scrappers.
I've only seen a couple of Brutes really run well on a "tanking TFs" standpoint and both were built by people who had Tankers as their mains.
This is obviously very subjective but its been my experience to date.
As far as the ITF goes ... anything over an hour is a failure to me. Fastest ITF I've run is 37 minutes ... was with a Fire Tanker leading in fact.
*EDIT* The worst ITF I've been on was 1:47 and that was also with a Fire Tanker leading the way. Shrug.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my fire tank must be in a league of its own then *shrugs*
[/ QUOTE ]
with the amount of influence it would take to build it again, yes it is.
Mine will not be as good as yours because I do not have the time or influence. Dont misconstrue this hate because of a have/have not ordeal. I am very much a capitalist and believe you work for or towards what you have. You have earned your tank and its capabilities and I think it gives goals for those looking for better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tons of purples and +recovery doesn't do much for his survivability.
BTW just to dispel the notion that it takes a ton of influence to build a toon ... the only expensive part to building a Fire Tanker's defense is the Obliterations, which don't cost hundreds of millions of influence.
*BUT* if you were set on a build that took 300 million influence to build, it would take the *average* player (any player really) about 20 hours game play (for some that's less then a week ... for the more casual players 2-3 weeks) on a less then optimal team to farm up that kind of influence (that's 15mil inf per hour btw).
The rest of the earning ethics through your belief in capitalism isn't relevant in the least to the discussion.
[/ QUOTE ]
dual builds ftw krunch.. not one purple or high recov rate on thew defense build ill add.
just the ability to tank more then im "suppose" to.
oh and as far as the wall in cimora stands..its gravy to me.i really dont think its cause of fire or dark lacking to other sets
its the abiltity to use the set you have better then the average joe ...ive always said one thing about tanks that holds true
anyone can play a tank..but not everyone is good at it.
thats where the issue lies..if all sets were the same we would only have one
[ QUOTE ]
The rest of the earning ethics through your belief in capitalism isn't relevant in the least to the discussion.
[/ QUOTE ]
You get what you pay for. It is perfectly relevant. If you want to spend billions you get better IO's.
And I think Kinetic Combats are better on a fire tank with Obliteration's.
I will respec mine to 41%defense after I get bored with running with SO's on the second build. It wont be the best, but it is what I can afford at the moment.
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
[ QUOTE ]
As far as the ITF goes ... anything over an hour is a failure to me. Fastest ITF I've run is 37 minutes ... was with a Fire Tanker leading in fact.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've done some sub 30mins's but those were intended speed runs. This was a network leveling / merit team, ie: "Anyone want to do an ITF?". I also view anything over an hour as a failure, but given we took whatever folks wanted to bring (two of the vets swapped to their corrs to keep the speed up), I don't feel bad about that run. Folks got their levels and merits, and I probably shouldn't have set it to 4 with so many lowbies, but we did fine.
[ QUOTE ]
Most Brutes I've seen make horrible Tanker substitutes ... mostly from the standpoint that they're built and played like Scrappers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm. My scrapper didn't die the entire run and ended up soloing the last 8% of the computer. Darn those squishy little scrappers? *laugh* Seriously, the game isn't that challenging. I could care less what someone's main is as long as they understand the mechanics, which brings us back to my point.
The mechanics are that fire and dark armor don't handle the ITF well without significant investment or support. If people understand the mechanics, they understand what they need for success. If they don't, they'll die a lot and get blamed as a "bad tanker" on these teams - which is why I wrote the entire schpeil on mechanics up there. I don't want the average tanker thinking, "Well, Coldmed can do it, so my fire tanker must be able to do it!" ... which is why I reach out to correct you when you suggest people just don't know how to play a fire tank and that's why they're getting reamed on the ITF. That's not true at all. We can give you a level 50 fire tank with just SO's on a supportless team and see whether it bares out, if you want. SO's vs. IO's; you can have exactly the same powers taken and world of difference in performance. Your ability play the tanker is one thing, how much influence is invested in it is another. This is not a skill gap issue.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The rest of the earning ethics through your belief in capitalism isn't relevant in the least to the discussion.
[/ QUOTE ]
You get what you pay for. It is perfectly relevant. If you want to spend billions you get better IO's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now we're up to billions?! You sure picked the right two people to merge together on your avatar to get that kind of inflation.
[ QUOTE ]
And I think Kinetic Combats are better on a fire tank with Obliteration's.
[/ QUOTE ]
You would be incorrect (you'd also be mixing your positional and typed defenses). Forgetting for the moment that Kinetic Combats are harder to find right now, positional (melee) defense is easier to raise then typed (S/L) start from 0 (which is where a Fire Tanker starts). Also sets with positional defense tend to give better overall bonuses (not an exhaustive study ... just my general experience having built both).
[ QUOTE ]
I will respec mine to 41%defense after I get bored with running with SO's on the second build. It wont be the best, but it is what I can afford at the moment.
[/ QUOTE ]
My Spines/Fire Scrapper can tank my L52 boss farm with 35% melee defense. He also cost 150 million to build (my most expensive to date). It took me all of 8 hours game time (a week irl) to earn the influence to build him.
If someone could give me the difference between that and the billions I'm supposedly spending, I'd appreciate it
[ QUOTE ]
oh and as far as the wall in cimora stands..its gravy to me.i really dont think its cause of fire or dark lacking to other sets
[/ QUOTE ]
My dark/fire/pyre and spines/fire/scrapper (and countless other chars) can solo the wall spawns just fine, farming them is not really the topic. The point I'm making is a dark or fire tanker that doesn't have significant IO's or support will not do well tanking the ITF because they can't handle 4-8 bosses and EB's in the mix with all the lts and mins. They have terrible innate defense and no defense debuff resist.
[ QUOTE ]
its the abiltity to use the set you have better then the average joe ...ive always said one thing about tanks that holds true
anyone can play a tank..but not everyone is good at it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Skill is a separate issue. There is a mechanics gap for a fire or dark tanker in the ITF. I'm looking at taking my fire/fire/pyre tank to 45% s/l defense, but I would hardly claim I can tank the ITF with him and no support because "I know how to play a fire tank".
[ QUOTE ]
Your ability play the tanker is one thing, how much influence is invested in it is another. This is not a skill gap issue.
[/ QUOTE ]
The largest amount of skill required in this game is building your character. "Well built" today means investing time and money into acquiring IOs. That should be a given ... if it isn't, then welcome to 2006.
BTW when you go into the water, you might get wet. Obvious but apparently that's what we're doing today.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your ability play the tanker is one thing, how much influence is invested in it is another. This is not a skill gap issue.
[/ QUOTE ]
The largest amount of skill required in this game is building your character. "Well built" today means investing time and money into acquiring IOs. That should be a given ... if it isn't, then welcome to 2006.
[/ QUOTE ]
Chuckle. I enjoy continued opportunities to correct you.
Counter-example A: "It takes smarts to design your build"
"Give me a build for X" "Fix my build for Y" -- threads litter this board. While it takes some skill to put together a good build, it takes none to duplicate it. Just time and effort to amass the influence. Assuming build = skill is foolish.
Counter-example B: "My build makes me a good tanker."
The insanely IO'd (insert any) tanker that can survive all day long in a spawn of (whatever) but with a second tank on the team just can't get the hang of managing two or three spawns at a time, fails at teamwork, and gets teammates killed. The tanker that brags about standing in a spawn all day long while his team wipes. The tanker that is just so darn survivable with amazing damage output but didn't take a travel power and thus refuses to do any task forces that involve travel. etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. Having a great build does not make you a great tank. Heck, I main tanked 53's on my level 15 shield/fire tanker 2 days ago with a 41 tank in the group - other tanker didn't know how to set pace or do anything else, and I had bubbles plus given a fort to softcap plus carried a tray of purples so I led. At 15. (47 as of last night)
Counter-example C: "My skill making an individual IO build makes for GREAT TEAM SUXCES!"
8 fire/rads with SO's.
2 emp/sonics with SO's.
8 dark/any's without any enhancements whatsoever.
Not a single IO in there, these teams will have massive success. I don't range softcap my defenders because I have to, I do it because I feel like it. The mechanics of the game make it nice to have good IO's, but not required.
IO Build is not a good meterstick for player skill. It is not a good meterstick for team success. It is not the same as "knowing how to play" your character.
[ QUOTE ]
When you go into the water, you might get wet.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]
Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Secondary Power Set: Ice Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Earth Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blazing Aura -- (A)(21)(21)(23)(23)
Level 1: Frozen Fists -- (A)(9)(15)(45)
Level 2: Healing Flames -- (A)(3)(3)(17)(19)(19)
Level 4: Frost -- (A)(5)(5)(11)(11)(17)
Level 6: Fire Shield -- (A)(7)(7)(9)(45)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- (A)(45)
Level 10: Hurdle -- (A)
Level 12: Plasma Shield -- (A)(13)(13)(15)
Level 14: Super Jump -- (A)
Level 16: Health -- (A)(34)(34)(37)(40)(42)
Level 18: Boxing -- (A)
Level 20: Stamina -- (A)(42)(42)
Level 22: Ice Patch -- (A)
Level 24: Tough -- (A)(25)(25)(34)
Level 26: Weave -- (A)(27)(27)(33)
Level 28: Freezing Touch -- (A)(29)(29)(31)(31)(33)
Level 30: Burn -- (A)(31)(46)(48)(48)(50)
Level 32: Build Up -- (A)(33)(46)(46)
Level 35: Greater Ice Sword -- (A)(36)(36)(36)(37)(37)
Level 38: Frozen Aura -- (A)(39)(39)(39)(40)(40)
Level 41: Stone Prison -- (A)(48)(50)(50)
Level 44: Taunt -- (A)
Level 47: Quick Sand -- (A)
Level 49: Temperature Protection -- (A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- (A)(43)(43)(43)
Level 1: Sprint -- (A)
Level 2: Rest -- (A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
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This is the build I am going for. I have most of the IO's already in storage. The reason I am going for the S/L defense is because many ranged attacks also have a S/L component. Dont forget the change to defense bonuses have both typed and positional now.
My billions reference is if you want purples, which wont improve my build much, if at all.
My spines/vuln tanks very well. It can cap S/L when surrounded and is at 36% with one mob. It does not have tough or weave. It does have Aid Self. (numbers are real close, I have not played it in a few weeks.)
But, as with all things. Opinions vary. What works best for you may not work best for everyone. The opportunity cost is also a variable. I have the IO's ready for this build. I am saving up to get IO's for other builds for other toons. My spines/vuln is a better farmer than my fire/ice. My fire/ice is my badge toon. With the better build I may want to play it more, but the other tanks and scrappers are more fun and not a one trick pony.
YMMV
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
Ok ... since you're obviously wanting a lesson in character building / playing (coulda just asked nicely) ...
I said the *most* amount of skill in this game is building your character. You don't build your character by copying another build ... but by understanding what the build does from experience.
Along those lines, the overwhelming vast majority of players who actually *build* their toons well (i.e. not just copy from the boards and throw a ton of influence at it) also tend to play their toons well (at least when focused). The whole time and effort thing. I've yet to meet a person who put that much time and effort into a really well built character, who didn't play well.
So they almost go hand in hand. The other big part to this equation is knowing what you're facing and how that will effect your build. That comes from experience and/or doing your homework. Finally, a smaller part to the equation is being able to handle the unexpected. I say small here because this game from a content perspective just doesn't throw a whole lot of curves at you.
If your assertion here is that the order in which you are mashing your buttons requires a certain amount of concentration on your part ... well ... (trying really hard to not offend you again) ... it shouldn't. Experience (part of that whole character building thing) will make going through the motions more of a reflexive act then a conscious one.
P.S. - Part of making a great build does include dipping into IOs yes. This should be taken as a given (again).
[ QUOTE ]
Nothing against using MA/AE to farm, Krunch.
But Lvl 1-50 in 10 days?
I can get to lvl 50 in 10 days, just running the following...
1-8 Sewer Team
8-10 KR Radios/Safeguard (for temp travel)
10-16 Positron TF
16-21 Synapse TF
21-25/26 Sister Psyche TF
26-28/29 Moonfire TF (rugged difficulty)
28/29-29/30 Hess TF (rugged difficulty)
29/30-30/31 Citadel TF (rugged difficulty)
30/31-31/32 Speeding through last two arcs in Croatoa
31/32-32/33 Manticore TF
32/33-35 a few Katie Hannon TF
35-36 (37 if really lucky and high enough difficulty) Numina TF
36/37-50 ITF (you can throw in a Kahn and/or LGTF lvl 45+ if you want).
There I just got merits from lvl 10+, get at least 1 really great IO one would want (and if you want can sell if IOs arent your thing, but want the influence for gen IOs/SOs/costume fees)...
I can do all that in less than 10 days with the right team. 
OH how I loved that 2hour Posi and 1:14 (kill all) Citadel.
[/ QUOTE ]
Did something close to this with 7 buddies over a 2xXP weekend, 1-50 in 2 days with no farming or AE in sight
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
[ QUOTE ]
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]
Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Secondary Power Set: Ice Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Earth Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blazing Aura -- (A)(21)(21)(23)(23)
Level 1: Frozen Fists -- (A)(9)(15)(45)
Level 2: Healing Flames -- (A)(3)(3)(17)(19)(19)
Level 4: Frost -- (A)(5)(5)(11)(11)(17)
Level 6: Fire Shield -- (A)(7)(7)(9)(45)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- (A)(45)
Level 10: Hurdle -- (A)
Level 12: Plasma Shield -- (A)(13)(13)(15)
Level 14: Super Jump -- (A)
Level 16: Health -- (A)(34)(34)(37)(40)(42)
Level 18: Boxing -- (A)
Level 20: Stamina -- (A)(42)(42)
Level 22: Ice Patch -- (A)
Level 24: Tough -- (A)(25)(25)(34)
Level 26: Weave -- (A)(27)(27)(33)
Level 28: Freezing Touch -- (A)(29)(29)(31)(31)(33)
Level 30: Burn -- (A)(31)(46)(48)(48)(50)
Level 32: Build Up -- (A)(33)(46)(46)
Level 35: Greater Ice Sword -- (A)(36)(36)(36)(37)(37)
Level 38: Frozen Aura -- (A)(39)(39)(39)(40)(40)
Level 41: Stone Prison -- (A)(48)(50)(50)
Level 44: Taunt -- (A)
Level 47: Quick Sand -- (A)
Level 49: Temperature Protection -- (A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- (A)(43)(43)(43)
Level 1: Sprint -- (A)
Level 2: Rest -- (A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
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This is the build I am going for. I have most of the IO's already in storage. The reason I am going for the S/L defense is because many ranged attacks also have a S/L component. Dont forget the change to defense bonuses have both typed and positional now.
My billions reference is if you want purples, which wont improve my build much, if at all.
My spines/vuln tanks very well. It can cap S/L when surrounded and is at 36% with one mob. It does not have tough or weave. It does have Aid Self. (numbers are real close, I have not played it in a few weeks.)
But, as with all things. Opinions vary. What works best for you may not work best for everyone. The opportunity cost is also a variable. I have the IO's ready for this build. I am saving up to get IO's for other builds for other toons. My spines/vuln is a better farmer than my fire/ice. My fire/ice is my badge toon. With the better build I may want to play it more, but the other tanks and scrappers are more fun and not a one trick pony.
YMMV
[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure what your point here is.
If it is that S/L defense is better then Melee defense across the majority of the game, I would agree.
If it's that S/L defense is easier to build then Melee defense it isn't (considering KCs availability currently). Also building Melee defense will also give you access to higher accuracy and recharge rates via set bonuses (yours are currently sitting at 18% and 10% respectively on your wish build).
I don't include purples in my discussion of builds and expectations unless the topic specifically centers around them (I have yet to put a purple into a single build of mine for that matter).
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Ok ... since you're obviously wanting a lesson in character building / playing (coulda just asked nicely) ...
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I don't feel I learn a lot when I visit here, but feel free to surprise me!
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I said the *most* amount of skill in this game is building your character. You don't build your character by copying another build ... but by understanding what the build does from experience.
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See, the lesson I'm seeing here (and since your first post on this particular tangent about 'knowing how to play') is that you really should consider qualifying your generalizations instead of just throwing them out there.
In response to your statement "You don't build your character by copying another build", I've seen quite a few people hop to a new board and say, "I want to play an 'X', give me a build", so your suggestion seems inaccurate. I've PUG'd frequently when I have time to play in the last 2 months, on the two highest pop servers (iirc), and I've run into a gamut of skill levels. Some of which are literally, "my friend told me to build it like this". Build = Skill again makes little sense. You're not going to get far with that line of argument.
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Along those lines, the overwhelming vast majority of players who actually *build* their toons well (i.e. not just copy from the boards and throw a ton of influence at it) also tend to play their toons well (at least when focused). The whole time and effort thing. I've yet to meet a person who put that much time and effort into a really well built character, who didn't play well.
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Yet perhaps the reverse is true. I've been playing shields for about three days. There's not much mystery to the set. Yet I run into willpower tankers (at 50!) that don't understand what their toggles do, dark scrappers (at 50!) that don't know obsidian shield doesn't protect from knockback when it says so right there, fire/ss tankers (at 50! with TONS of IO's!) that don't understand that their big +recharge/+dmg build is totally crap for handing 54 boss pounding as lead tank... etc etc etc.
The only piece of your quote up there I agree with is that there is a correlation between skill and experience. As the mgmt phrase goes, "Experience trumps talent every time".
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So they almost go hand in hand. The other big part to this equation is knowing what you're facing and how that will effect your build. That comes from experience and/or doing your homework. Finally, a smaller part to the equation is being able to handle the unexpected. I say small here because this game from a content perspective just doesn't throw a whole lot of curves at you.
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Ah, so we're somewhat in agreement that experience has something to do with this 'skill' thing. That's a much wiser line of argument than build.
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If your assertion here is that the order in which you are mashing your buttons requires a certain amount of concentration on your part ... well ... (trying really hard to not offend you again) ... it shouldn't.
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Um. Previous post, I was main tanking 53's at 15. I had combustion, brawl and the magic thrown thing as buttons to mash. (oddly enough I didn't take my vet powers till 35ish, was too busy) Edit: Scorch! How could I forget scorch?! 4 glorious buttons to mash.
On the flipside, knowing how to position my taunt aura, how to cluster mobs, how to work around the other tanker to keep the multiple spawns saturated, how to keep the pace near the max the team was capable of - I suppose mashing movement buttons counts? (Edit: And perhaps most importantly, 'knowing how to build myself an awesome team to cover my holes and melt bosses from available puggers' ?)
Heck, example from last night, I finally pick up Taunt (going to IO mule it later) at 38. I immediately start using it to grab mobs outside the main group if they harassed squishies, and to retrieve running anchors. The willpower tank along for a run A) Had taunt because someone told him to take it B) didn't know how to use it beyond taunting the things in front of him C) had a relatively good IO build if his bonuses were anything to go off of. Heck, don't get me started on tanks who don't know how to use taunt (I don't insist people take it, but if you take it, it's not for the stuff right in front of you, folks.)
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Experience (part of that whole character building thing) will make going through the motions more of a reflexive act then a conscious one.
P.S. - Part of making a great build does include dipping into IOs yes. This should be taken as a given (again).
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Ok. So back to my original beef , your quote: "Fire and Dark Tankers do just fine in the ITF. Badly built Tankers of all varieties do not."
Fire and Dark players can have *experience* and *skill* and be *well built* without major IO investment and do great in other parts of the game, but still need *support* and/or *Heavy IO's* to do well on an ITF. This is due to game mechanics. They do not do "just fine" without one or the other of the above. I put far less weight on IO builds because I tend to travel with a lot of support, but that is reverse of the average PUG team that I see formed. (Recent stats bear that out as someone posted in archtypes a few days ago - still far more blasters and scrappers than any other AT)
Therefore, you might be a skilled fire or dark tanker that *really* knows your characters powers well. And you might be a great tank. But you still won't handle the ITF well without IO's or support. This illustrates the difference between mechanics and 'skill'. Edit: And build is separate from either... and I don't consider "well built" to really include "heavy IO investment". You don't need heavy IO investment to do a great job as a tanker, but you do need to know where your holes are and have a plan for covering them.
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Yet perhaps the reverse is true. I've been playing shields for about three days. There's not much mystery to the set. Yet I run into willpower tankers (at 50!) that don't understand what their toggles do, dark scrappers (at 50!) that don't know obsidian shield doesn't protect from knockback when it says so right there, fire/ss tankers (at 50! with TONS of IO's!) that don't understand that their big +recharge/+dmg build is totally crap for handing 54 boss pounding as lead tank... etc etc etc.
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Keep rereading this until the light bulb goes off. Semantical misdirection bores me.
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Keep rereading this until the light bulb goes off. Semantical misdirection bores me.
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*chuckle* To quote a man, "I accept your apology."
It took you 10 days?
I personally have farmed someone from 1-32 in one run of a non exploit farm. Luts on City02, high ambushes, large mobs, defendable objects. 8 man team hits the game's render cap on every ambush.
Takes about an hour.
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It took you 10 days?
I personally have farmed someone from 1-32 in one run of a non exploit farm. Luts on City02, high ambushes, large mobs, defendable objects. 8 man team hits the game's render cap on every ambush.
Takes about an hour.
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I think you'll find that experience scales past a certain point. Each subsequent map returns less experience by ratio (in other words, the next map you'll get 3 levels and the next 2 levels and so on).
And 10 days at 2 hours a day ... 20 hours which some people marathon over 2 days. Yes you can probably do it in less then that. This is more for the average Joe and/or returning player who doesn't want to do the whole level grind.
P.S. - If you've run on a better arc ... post it
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Keep rereading this until the light bulb goes off. Semantical misdirection bores me.
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*chuckle* To quote a man, "I accept your apology."
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I agree with Kruunch: you are systematically misreading what he wrote.
What I understood from what he said is:
If you meet someone level 50 who took the time & effort to fully equip the toon with something else than SO, you can assume that the player has at least some clue about the toon.
I have seen enough toons to say that is true even for Fire/Kin controllers. Purpled-out fire/kin => dedicated player.
You can always find counter-examples but IO-ed out toons are a sign of dedication from the player behind the keyboard.
And if you pick up someone else build... it's one thing to select the powers, it's another to buy all the necessary IOs.
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Keep rereading this until the light bulb goes off. Semantical misdirection bores me.
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*chuckle* To quote a man, "I accept your apology."
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I agree with Kruunch: you are systematically misreading what he wrote.
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I understand his point, I just have a first-hand experience in a number of counterpoints, so making a sweeping generalization is foolish and I've called him on it. I've seen plenty of players do fine with little to no IO'ing (either they're still leveling or just don't need IO's on a build) and there is a 'skill' factor that is completely separate from your build. Furthermore, you tend to build for a specific activity, so a great+dam/rech fire/ss/pyre farmer build is going to get reamed in the ITF without support.
On the flipside, I don't need an IO build on my shield tanker to tank 53-54 boss farms. I don't need an IO build on my dark or fire tankers to tank the ITF. All I need is right type of support. I had a friend who loved to farm the storm palace on his fire/fire/pyre back when RCS still existed, and he had an insane IO build for the time, but he never went without an emp.
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What I understood from what he said is:
If you meet someone level 50 who took the time & effort to fully equip the toon with something else than SO, you can assume that the player has at least some clue about the toon.
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Again, I have firsthand experience this is not true, and that in many cases the opposite can be true. My new shield/fire tanker leveled roughly 30 levels in the last two days with a cold defender and a rad defender, and none of the three had any enhancements period other than the shield's defenses and sleet's recharge. (and stamina and hasten on the shield. Attacks? Empty. Hitting 679 shield charge on a 53 boss with no enhancements? Hilarious.)
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I have seen enough toons to say that is true even for Fire/Kin controllers. Purpled-out fire/kin => dedicated player.
You can always find counter-examples but IO-ed out toons are a sign of dedication from the player behind the keyboard.
And if you pick up someone else build... it's one thing to select the powers, it's another to buy all the necessary IOs.
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Buying the IO's isn't exactly difficult. There are purpled out fire/kins that are terrible, ones that are amazing, and there are purpled out fire-kins that are very good at one specific type of activity and have little to no skill in other activities. Do you think they're "good" at playing fire/kin because they've got a very specific activity down pat? Similarly, I brought up the example of the typical tanker that just can't work with other taunt auras - it's incredibly common. Congratulations, a terrific build doesn't make you that good!
It might feel like semantics, but I feel that it's important, especially with the rate of new 50's, the proliferation of builds on boards, and the influx of new players - judging a player by their build is foolish. Suggesting that a dark or fire will do "just fine" tanking an ITF is a false statement without calling out that your generalization suggests they have heavy, heavy IO investment (checked the price of oblits, KC's and TOD's lately?) or support buffs, since the ITF hits some major holes in their defenses.
I'm not aiming my rhetoric at Krunch - there's little point. However, I feel the urge to correct his generalizations because most players probably don't view a "well built" fire armor or dark armor as one with severe IO investment.
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You're being obtuse.
Of course I'm talking about IO'd sets. Anyone with even minor experience in tanking and the sets we're talking about should have understood that.
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Actually you were being obtuse in your statement, which is why I had to correct you. I eschew obfuscation, to steal a phrase. It is not a fair expectation that the average fire or dark tanker has hundreds of millions of influence in IO investment. You subjectively view that as the threshold for a well built tank, but my experience is that most people don't share your opinion - and people hardly have that expectation when looking for a tanker to run the ITF, or at least I've never seen "Looking for tanker for ITF - if you're fire or dark please have 30%+ smash/lethal defense!".
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And yes, Fire Tankers would need some type of support (I believe Dark can resist cap S/L or close to it so not as important for them), but in a full group, the chances of their being no Defenders or Controllers (or Corruptors, or MMs, or Doms) is fairly minimal.
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Dark and Fire both get to 70% S/L res with tough. I recently ran a 1:15 ITF at challenge level 4 with 2 corrs (kin and storm) and a 48 defender (bubbles) with 3 low level (37-45) shield brutes. (I was on a fire/invuln scrap). I think we ended up with ~50 deaths. Mostly experienced players (1 newbie, 2 semi newbies), 43% of the team on support characters, yet with all that "support" the shield brutes spent half their time flat on their back during mission 2 and 3. Making the assumption that just having a defender or two along = the right type of support is silly.
As much as I dislike empaths (simply from their tag as 'healer' rather than buffer), they're probably the single most useful powerset to pair with dark and fire for the ITF, with cold and FF right behind. Sonic and thermal are also both fantastic - 90% res is significantly less damage than 70% res and gives dark regen and healing flames more time to recover.
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Someone who's run the ITF a billion times on a Fire and Dark Tanker would know this ... just by purview of that statement.
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Which is exactly why I had to correct you. A leveling fire tanker with a solid build will do very poorly on the ITF without significant support, while solidly built sub-40 invulns and granites will do fine. People don't ask for a fire tanker with 300MM in IO's, they ask for a tanker. If you're the tanker in question, you should know what type of support you need to do well.
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You didn't correct me ... you just illustrated that you don't know how to play a Fire Tanker in an ITF