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I understand his point, I just have a first-hand experience in a number of counterpoints, so making a sweeping generalization is foolish and I've called him on it. I've seen plenty of players do fine with little to no IO'ing (either they're still leveling or just don't need IO's on a build) and there is a 'skill' factor that is completely separate from your build. Furthermore, you tend to build for a specific activity, so a great+dam/rech fire/ss/pyre farmer build is going to get reamed in the ITF without support.
On the flipside, I don't need an IO build on my shield tanker to tank 53-54 boss farms. I don't need an IO build on my dark or fire tankers to tank the ITF. All I need is right type of support. I had a friend who loved to farm the storm palace on his fire/fire/pyre back when RCS still existed, and he had an insane IO build for the time, but he never went without an emp.
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And I am going to call you on this.
The worst tank in the game can tank the ITF if he has the right support so long as he knows how to walk from spawn to spawn and use taunt.
Hell with enough Defender buffs and heals my Regen scrapper could probably tank it.
The real test of how well the Player/AT/Build performs is not when you are with an optimal group but how well it performs in a group that isn't loaded to the gills with Defense buffs and healers.
Take it from someone who has three Fire tanks. While you can build a Fire tank to be decent (with a lot of IOs) out of the box with just SOs they are very weak as damage soakers.
Despite having had a Level 50 Fire tank for nearly 5 years, skill or no skill, if I tried to take a "generic" Fire Tank with only SOs into the ITF with one healer and a bunch of Blasters then I don't honestly think there is a chance in Hell of our succeeding.
If I take a Fire tank into that same group optimized with IOs for Defense, HPs, Recharge and Regen, then our chances increase exponentially.
Skill and the player will only take you so far. And while a character built with just SOs may not be the "worst player in the game" the odds are far better that the tank with the 500+ million build will not only be better equipped to handle what is thrown at him but will probably know a fair amount about how to play that character as well.
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And I am going to call you on this.
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Or try anyhow 
Let's see!
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The worst tank in the game can tank the ITF if he has the right support so long as he knows how to walk from spawn to spawn and use taunt.
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The worst tank in the game can survive the ITF this way, sure. Tank it, that's arguable - in groups the last few days the other tank is sometimes the *last* person into the fight. That's *exactly* what I mean when I start differentiating between a "good tank" and a "bad tank". A good tank will keep the ITF going at a great clip and manage agro well, a bad tank won't, but either can be made to survive it regardless of their primary without ridiculous IO investment - which is where I corrected Krunch. Yes, you don't need melee for an ITF, so sure your regen could tank it if you really wanted to... lol @ heals tho.
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The real test of how well the Player/AT/Build performs is not when you are with an optimal group but how well it performs in a group that isn't loaded to the gills with Defense buffs and healers.
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The real test of how a player/build performs is whether they can do their job well. Which is in this case, tank an ITF. Note that I don't say "tank an ITF with no support"; You don't need to have put 500MM into a fire tanker to tank the ITF, and it's stupid to suggest that without the 500MM inf the tanker is somehow not well built or poorly played. That's just silly. I meet plenty of tankers with tons more inf invested that are terrible players. Regardless of how survivable their toon is, they aren't a good tank (although in some cases, very sweet farmers!).
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Despite having had a Level 50 Fire tank for nearly 5 years, skill or no skill, if I tried to take a "generic" Fire Tank with only SOs into the ITF with one healer and a bunch of Blasters then I don't honestly think there is a chance in Hell of our succeeding.
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Which was exactly my point. Knowing the mechanics of the ITF is key - Fire will not do "just fine" without support or massive IO investment, but it can do "just fine" without massive IO investment as long as you cover your holes with 1-2 support chars.
Also, "one healer" ? You seriously look for a "healer" for an ITF? 
Right....
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If I take a Fire tank into that same group optimized with IOs for Defense, HPs, Recharge and Regen, then our chances increase exponentially.
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Or instead of 500MM inf spent, you can grab a bubbler and get more or less the identical end result - an easily beaten TF (easier, actually, given your setup relies on pure damage to go through the healing nictus and has one agro and no buffs/debuffs to protect blasters ... ugh, I'd not be inclined to ITF like that). Or you can get a sonic. Or you can get a cold. Or you can take two. Throw a rad or a dark in while you're at it. You'll be safer and kill faster to boot.
While your statement is certainly *true*, for a team oriented environment it's rather irrelevant unless you specifically choose to play on poorly built teams just so your build can shine like a superstar. There seems to be this aura of "my tank must be able to stand alone unsupported to be awesome", and while I also build chars along those lines, I hardly need all the IO's to build and keep a team moving at a fast pace.
On the flipside and to counter my own argument, sure the ITF run on my scrapper I mentioned a few posts ago would have been a lot harder without my IO build. Of course, at that point I wouldn't have put it on CL 4 and would probably have grabbed a non-network member for an 8th slot. Knowing mechanics, and all.
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The odds are far better that the tank with the 500+ million build will not only be better equipped to handle what is thrown at him but will probably know a fair amount about how to play that character as well.
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The odds are far better is a *much* better statement than a sweeping generalization that a $500M build must mean this guy's good and a tank without that investment is 'poorly built'. And I've run into plenty of high inf builds that are terrible tanks by my standards. Not understanding how to taunt. Not understanding agro caps. Trying to hog the second spawn and losing the first. Being slow. Not understanding their own sets weaknesses. Etc, etc, etc, etc. I could care less that a willpower fire tanker is "an awesome tank, my friends say so" and has 3 mostly complete purple sets, they're still faceplanting against 54s and not adapting to the incoming pulls, choosing instead to sit in a corner and fight the last 3 of the previous pull. The stoner with 4 LOTG rech, 4 GOTA runspeed that just can't keep up the pace and complains we're going too fast. Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc....
I'll just quote myself:
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IO Build is not a good meterstick for player skill. It is not a good meterstick for team success. It is not the same as "knowing how to play" your character.
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Careful you don't pull a hammy with all that back pedalling
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Careful you don't pull a hammy with all that back pedalling
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I'm amused that you view qualifying my statements as backpedaling. Like I said in the AV thread, this is what differentiates a napkin-calculating dilettante from someone that knows what they're talking about.
I called you out as wrong. I explained why. I have not changed my position: A fire or dark armor tanker that 'knows how to play' can Tank an ITF without IO investment - but desperately needs their holes covered. You can fill your holes easily without massive IO investment by grabbing an appropriate support set.
On the flipside, a tanker with massive IO investments can be a terrible tanker. You can't fill in a skill gap with another teammate's powerset.
Ok you're right ... Fire and Dark Tankers can't tank the ITF.
*rolls eyes*
*EDIT* If the whole point to your novella like posts was that SO built Fire and Dark Tankers can't tank the ITF without lots of support, then I agree with you. This is also a water is wet type of point but you seem to really need someone to agree with you so there ya go.
The only 50's I have that I would do the ITF with are my Fire/Fire/Pyre tank and Ill/rad troller. Granted, my fire tank has millions in IO's on him, but people forget that high damage output can be a form of damage mitigation as well. Can't hit you if there dead.
I have 35% defense to melee, and that keeps me a float for plenty of time, after several seconds my defense finally begins to scale down, but by then, I've already launched my first 3 AoE attacks, and with build up/fiery embrace, they go down quick. I can roll so fast through stuff with my fire tanker, IO's almost make me feel like its Issue 2 again.
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*EDIT* If the whole point to your novella like posts was that SO built Fire and Dark Tankers can't tank the ITF without lots of support, then I agree with you.
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Fascinating. That took a while.
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This is also a water is wet type of point but you seem to really need someone to agree with you so there ya go.
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Not exactly. I see a statement like the following;
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Awww...but it'd be funner to run them through the TFs
Sadly, the ITF has ruined me on some tankers *glares at DA & FA* Love the TF so much, and I've yet to see a decent DA or FA tank survive that TF on their own.
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Fire and Dark Tankers do just fine in the ITF. Badly built Tankers of all varieties do not.
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... and I feel the urge to interject. Because you've insinuated the player must be a badly built tanker, where in reality the ITF is geared against dark and fire because of the mechanics involved; a fire or dark tanker will not well on their own even with a "good" build unless that particular build happens to be very heavy S/L def. They can invest hundreds of millions of influence to counter this, or simply roll with appropriate support, and either way you'll have a tanker that can handle the ITF. Suggesting that the player's build is the problem is somewhere between oversimplification and ignorance.
Just wow.
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Or instead of 500MM inf spent, you can grab a bubbler and get more or less the identical end result - an easily beaten TF (easier, actually, given your setup relies on pure damage to go through the healing nictus and has one agro and no buffs/debuffs to protect blasters ... ugh, I'd not be inclined to ITF like that). Or you can get a sonic. Or you can get a cold. Or you can take two. Throw a rad or a dark in while you're at it. You'll be safer and kill faster to boot.
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Or you could play on a low population server: Champion; at off hours: Early in the day and very late at night, and not have the option of being able to find a "Bubbler" or a "sonic" or a "cold" when you are available to run the Task Force.
In which case, having an optimal tanker build is the only way you will every see it completed.
Some of us have other things to do (ie. Work) during Prime Time and don't have the luxury of having infinite Defenders of the exact type we are looking for just waiting around to run TFs.
On my server, at the hours I usually play, if an SO'd Fire tank stepped up to "tank" the ITF, 7 to 10 odds he'd be laughed out of the group. Not so much because he has to suck but because with the group mix we usually end up with there is simply no way he'll survive it.
just curious on why g would gimp fire and dark cause their not as good on one tf in the entire game
really a small arguement when fire is better at a ton of things invul's are not
i can name them if g wants..or show you if you wanna hit test.
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Never said this was the fastest or best way to level. Just a quick way to try out that tank build you came up with in Mids 
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Awww...but it'd be funner to run them through the TFs
Sadly, the ITF has ruined me on some tankers *glares at DA & FA* Love the TF so much, and I've yet to see a decent DA or FA tank survive that TF on their own.
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Fire and Dark Tankers do just fine in the ITF. Badly built Tankers of all varieties do not.
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Okay, then I've just yet to see a good built FA or DA Tanker tank that TF.
Or do you mean Set IO'ed out DA and FA tankers when you say good built?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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And while a character built with just SOs may not be the "worst player in the game" the odds are far better that the tank with the 500+ million build will not only be better equipped to handle what is thrown at him but will probably know a fair amount about how to play that character as well.
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Slotting purples does not give a player any skills in playing any archetype.
I agree that Purpled-out characters will have better set bonuses and, therefore, be "better equipped".
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Never said this was the fastest or best way to level. Just a quick way to try out that tank build you came up with in Mids
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Awww...but it'd be funner to run them through the TFs
Sadly, the ITF has ruined me on some tankers *glares at DA & FA* Love the TF so much, and I've yet to see a decent DA or FA tank survive that TF on their own.
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Fire and Dark Tankers do just fine in the ITF. Badly built Tankers of all varieties do not.
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Okay, then I've just yet to see a good built FA or DA Tanker tank that TF.
Or do you mean Set IO'ed out DA and FA tankers when you say good built?
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i know when i say built..i mean taking powers like tough and weave to maimize their abilties as a tank..not the "i need to skip such and such cause i wanna be a scranker" built
btw..saying only i.o'd out fire tanks can do it is garbage..cause i dont know anyone still putting out guides in the lat year for just s.o's....i think its more biased opinions then anything else..
my fire has the itf badge already...and i idnt have ONE emp ,troller or def on the team...so apparently your wrong
everything nowadays is and always considered with the use of i.o's
not ONE of you go into posts saying to slot with s.o's in the last year or give guides with s.o's
get off the pot about it...your only trying to give yourself alittle more credit and it aint working
Well my latest Fire Tank has yet to start running TFs simply because He was built as an experiment in Soloing/Damage.
If I ever get around to building his 2nd spec for tanking on teams (and TFs) it will probably look like this..
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]
Galaxy SS Tank: Level 50 Science Tanker
Primary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blazing Aura -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(33), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(34), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Oblit-%Dam(45), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 1: Jab -- P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg(A), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/Rchg(3), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/EndRdx(3)
Level 2: Fire Shield -- TtmC'tng-ResDam(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(36), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(37)
Level 4: Healing Flames -- Numna-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(5), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg(11), Mrcl-Rcvry+(40)
Level 6: Haymaker -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(7), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(7), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Mako-Dam%(15), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 8: Consume -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(9), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(9), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(11), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(36), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(36)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(48), Zephyr-ResKB(50)
Level 12: Plasma Shield -- TtmC'tng-ResDam(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(13), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(13)
Level 14: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Health -- RgnTis-Regen+(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(17), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(17), Numna-Heal(46)
Level 18: Burn -- Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Oblit-Dmg(19), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(25), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(31), Oblit-%Dam(34)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(21), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(27), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(42), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(43)
Level 22: Knockout Blow -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(23), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(23), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), T'Death-Dam%(50)
Level 24: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(27), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(37), Mocking-Rchg(43)
Level 26: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Knock%(A)
Level 28: Rage -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(29), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(29), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(37), GSFC-Build%(40), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(46)
Level 30: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(31), S'fstPrt-ResKB(31), ResDam-I(48)
Level 32: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(A), LkGmblr-Def(33), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(33)
Level 35: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(45), Zephyr-ResKB(48)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(39), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Oblit-%Dam(39), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(40), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 41: Maneuvers -- HO:Enzym(A), HO:Enzym(42), HO:Enzym(45)
Level 44: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Rise of the Phoenix -- Dmg-I(A)
Level 49: Fiery Embrace -- RechRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
No Purples and the most expensive IO is the single LotG Recharge. Should be able to be built for between 300-500 million Inf (if I am patient at WW)
While this build will never do any real damage it should be able to manage to grab and hold Agro nicely and survive while doing it.
I like this list and I am SO tired of boss farms! LT farms are much more efficient safer and not as boring imho! I don't farm but i do pick missions for tickets! It's cheaper that way for when I get rare salvage!
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Never said this was the fastest or best way to level. Just a quick way to try out that tank build you came up with in Mids
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Awww...but it'd be funner to run them through the TFs
Sadly, the ITF has ruined me on some tankers *glares at DA & FA* Love the TF so much, and I've yet to see a decent DA or FA tank survive that TF on their own.
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Fire and Dark Tankers do just fine in the ITF. Badly built Tankers of all varieties do not.
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Okay, then I've just yet to see a good built FA or DA Tanker tank that TF.
Or do you mean Set IO'ed out DA and FA tankers when you say good built?
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Yes I mean IOs in their builds as well. That should be taken for granted as part of "well built".
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Keep rereading this until the light bulb goes off. Semantical misdirection bores me.
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*chuckle* To quote a man, "I accept your apology."
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I agree with Kruunch: you are systematically misreading what he wrote.
What I understood from what he said is:
If you meet someone level 50 who took the time & effort to fully equip the toon with something else than SO, you can assume that the player has at least some clue about the toon.
I have seen enough toons to say that is true even for Fire/Kin controllers. Purpled-out fire/kin => dedicated player.
You can always find counter-examples but IO-ed out toons are a sign of dedication from the player behind the keyboard.
And if you pick up someone else build... it's one thing to select the powers, it's another to buy all the necessary IOs.
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Sort of ... my main point was building a character isn't as simple as copying a build and throwing influence at it (i.e. I've seen plenty of IO'd toons who play like crap).
In other words, using and/or copying a guide is only the first baby steps to building a character. Levelling up the toon, having it face a broad spectrum of challenges, pushing the toon to its max capability (or more specfically, your max capability if that applies), rebuilding the toon to meet/exceed your expectations and final build requirements (this might happen over and over again) which should include some form of investment in IOs (doesn't have to be billions or even hundreds of millions .... to date, I've only spent over 100mil on one of my toons)).
*THAT'S* building a toon.
G_Tanker is just being arbitrary and trying to pick a fight over semantical distinctions. Shrug.