Achilles' Heel: Chance for Resist Debuff in a pet?
By
10100101,
Posted on: 2009-06-24 14:08 in The Market and Inventions
Yes. Note that Achilles' won't stack.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Yeah, and it works very nicely in enforcers, too.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
I have it slotted in the Genins and in Fly Trap.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes. Note that Achilles' won't stack.
[/ QUOTE ]
From the same caster that is
Some powers are considered a different caster.
For instance...
A Thugs/Strom MM could put a proc into Enforcers and Freezing Rain. They are considered different casters so their procs could stack. Same thing with a Cold/Sonic defender. 1 in Sleet and 1 in Infrigidate. You are 1 caster and the Sleet is another
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes. Note that Achilles' won't stack.
[/ QUOTE ]
From the same caster that is
Some powers are considered a different caster.
For instance...
A Thugs/Strom MM could put a proc into Enforcers and Freezing Rain. They are considered different casters so their procs could stack. Same thing with a Cold/Sonic defender. 1 in Sleet and 1 in Infrigidate. You are 1 caster and the Sleet is another
[/ QUOTE ]Actually, no. Achilles' Heel proc doesn't stack, period. The effect of the proc is Grant "Set_Bonus.Set_Bonus.AchillesHeel" to the target. The Achilles' Heel "set bonus" is set to Number allowed: 1. So, Achilles' doesn't stack on the target, because it's getting limited by the Rule of 5... where 5 = 1.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
The you tell that to my combat attribute, that showed 2 debuffs from the achilles proc on my own toon while testing just that in the arena, it was lying
I know it works this way
And the way you explain it means it would not stack from another person on the team having it slotted as well.
I too can confirm it does stack just not from the same caster. Just as the other guy said you have to look at it from the standpoint of what the game calls a caster. I have it slotted in my jounin and my poison debuff power. The jounin power it self counts as 1 caster eventhough there are two of them so only one debuff gets applied there. If I used my mastermind debuffs on top of that we get 2 procs going at once because it counts as 2 casters. If the mercs slot it in all 3 pets and in the poison debuff that would make it stack 4 times because each tier of pet counts as one caster. I hope this clears it up because I have tested and confirmed this using that power analyzer thingie.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
I too can confirm it does stack just not from the same caster. Just as the other guy said you have to look at it from the standpoint of what the game calls a caster. I have it slotted in my jounin and my poison debuff power. The jounin power it self counts as 1 caster eventhough there are two of them so only one debuff gets applied there. If I used my mastermind debuffs on top of that we get 2 procs going at once because it counts as 2 casters. If the mercs slot it in all 3 pets and in the poison debuff that would make it stack 4 times because each tier of pet counts as one caster. I hope this clears it up because I have tested and confirmed this using that power analyzer thingie.
[/ QUOTE ]
Uhhh, no. I got the urge to test this myself and it in fact does not stack from multiple targets. At the very least, not multiple pets, I haven't yet tried putting it in my single target attacks, but putting it in all three Merc pet powers, I never saw a debuff higher than 20%:
http://img146.imageshack.us/i/mercsvsfreaktank.jpg/
http://img146.imageshack.us/i/achilliesheelx3.jpg/
I fired on and killed 3 Freak Tanks and never saw that value go over 20%. However, it was extremely consistent, with all 6 pets slotted for it. It gets applied within seconds and doesn't go away till the target is dead, that combined with Acid Mortar is just plain mean.
And yes, I am aware my slotting of the pet upgrades is stupid. Take a look at my Patrol XP, I haven't really played this guy much lately. He also doesn't have the custom binds and macros most of my other Masterminds have.
Heh, just a side note, the MA test function is great for stuff like this.
[ QUOTE ]
And the way you explain it means it would not stack from another person on the team having it slotted as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And the way you explain it means it would not stack from another person on the team having it slotted as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't.
[/ QUOTE ]
Last weekend in the arena:
My Cold/Sonic vs my Broad/Regen
Infrigidate on auto and I kept casting Freezing Rain as it recharged. Not only did the Icon stack to show 2 for a few seconds but the combat monitor showed 2 debuffs from the proc. 1 from FR and 1 from Infrigidate. It took me about 8 minutes to get them to go off at the same time but they did
If it isnt supposed to work like that, it sure as hell is. I would never think a Proc IO such as this would be flagged not to stack from different casters because as I said that would negate every other persons proc.
Ya know now that I think about it I recall being attacked in PvP zones from multiple players and seeing the Icon stack for a second. Dawun kept shooting me on his PB and some Scrapper kept hitting me with LazerBeamEyes and stacking the proc.
Reading ingame descriptions and cuncluding an outcome is a very flawed way to figure out how things work especially IOs. Test it. Two casters will stack.
I dont know if MM pets are considered different casters as EvilRyu said. I actually would think they weren't but I really do not know. I do know Freeing Rain is another caster and not considered you. Not only that but each Freezing Rain is a different caster as well. Before DR hit PvP when I had speed boost I could overlap Freeing rains actual patches and although very rare it did also stack the debuff. I was in the arena with friends on Vent and my friend on his Troller kept telling me he needed to get that proc for his Cold because I kept putting it on him. During that match I was the only person with that proc slotted.
We're telling you, it doesn't matter how many casters it has.
People have tested this. A lot, actually.
What's kind of funny is that I was in this forum arguing your position, because I was convinced I had seen it stack twice.
Then someone pointed me to the RedTomax info on it, and I couldn't figure out how to reconcile that with what I saw. When I tried retesting it, I could not reproduce it. And that jived with what other testers were telling me.
Now I'm convinced the RedTomax info is correct.
Multiple casters can grant a temporary set bonus power to a target. However, the "rule of 5" setting on the power is set to 1, not 5, so the target can only benefit from one copy. That one copy has the recipient cast the -DR debuff on himself, and that debuff is flagged "do not stack from same caster."
The only way this can result in stacking is if the above rules fail to apply. In other words, if you're seeing stacking, it's a bug. It's also relatively recent.
Edit: Do not measure the proc's function by seeing icon stacking. Icons are notoriously misinformative. See: Winter's Blessing global.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
if you're seeing stacking, it's a bug.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then I am going to go with a bug. The Icon was what first made me check it but the combat attributes are what I monitor. 3 Times in 30 minutes I had the combat attribute window show 2 additonal resistance debuffs other than what is normally caused from Freezing Rain without me using anything other than Freezing Rain and Infrigidate
Like I said before, it might not have been supposed to work that way and it doesnt happen nearly as much as you would think but it is happening in the arena. I dont test in zones because Sirens/WB have factors that scew the results
Edit: I also wanted to add this may be something as simple as server ticks allowing them to stack. The same way AAO, RTTC and alike powers will stack for a fraction of a second. They allow a split second to stack but quickly revert back to the normal buff but since the proc has a times effect it has no choice but to last its duration before going back to one debuff
[ QUOTE ]
Edit: I also wanted to add this may be something as simple as server ticks allowing them to stack. The same way AAO, RTTC and alike powers will stack for a fraction of a second. They allow a split second to stack but quickly revert back to the normal buff but since the proc has a times effect it has no choice but to last its duration before going back to one debuff
[/ QUOTE ]
Those powers are (intentionally) not flagged "does not stack from same caster". So it shouldn't be that.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Edit: I also wanted to add this may be something as simple as server ticks allowing them to stack. The same way AAO, RTTC and alike powers will stack for a fraction of a second. They allow a split second to stack but quickly revert back to the normal buff but since the proc has a times effect it has no choice but to last its duration before going back to one debuff
[/ QUOTE ]
Those powers are (intentionally) not flagged "does not stack from same caster". So it shouldn't be that.
[/ QUOTE ]
But shouldn't AAO and RRTC be flagged not to stack from the same enemy in range?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Edit: I also wanted to add this may be something as simple as server ticks allowing them to stack. The same way AAO, RTTC and alike powers will stack for a fraction of a second. They allow a split second to stack but quickly revert back to the normal buff but since the proc has a times effect it has no choice but to last its duration before going back to one debuff
[/ QUOTE ]
Those powers are (intentionally) not flagged "does not stack from same caster". So it shouldn't be that.
[/ QUOTE ]
But shouldn't AAO and RRTC be flagged not to stack from the same enemy in range?
[/ QUOTE ]
No, or they couldn't stack for multiple enemies.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
I had the combat attribute window show 2 additonal resistance debuffs
[/ QUOTE ]Did you look at the total debuff? Per pohsyb, the totals in the CA are correct: they're pulled directly from your character's stats. The breakdown of those totals are often incorrect or misleading, because they're actually being interpreted from the list of powers affecting you. It's entirely possible that the effect was listed twice in the CA window, but only one was actually having an effect.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
[ QUOTE ]
So, Achilles' doesn't stack on the target, because it's getting limited by the Rule of 5... where 5 = 1.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fnord.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
[ QUOTE ]
We're telling you, it doesn't matter how many casters it has.
People have tested this. A lot, actually.
What's kind of funny is that I was in this forum arguing your position, because I was convinced I had seen it stack twice.
Then someone pointed me to the RedTomax info on it, and I couldn't figure out how to reconcile that with what I saw. When I tried retesting it, I could not reproduce it. And that jived with what other testers were telling me.
Now I'm convinced the RedTomax info is correct.
Multiple casters can grant a temporary set bonus power to a target. However, the "rule of 5" setting on the power is set to 1, not 5, so the target can only benefit from one copy. That one copy has the recipient cast the -DR debuff on himself, and that debuff is flagged "do not stack from same caster."
The only way this can result in stacking is if the above rules fail to apply. In other words, if you're seeing stacking, it's a bug. It's also relatively recent.
Edit: Do not measure the proc's function by seeing icon stacking. Icons are notoriously misinformative. See: Winter's Blessing global.
[/ QUOTE ]Maybe something changed since they last tested because I have seen it stack multiple times from different casters. They are always tweaking/breaking IOs its possible it might have been bugged back when the other people tested. So unless Castle comes in here and says it doesnt stack, we should assume it does from other casters.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
So unless Castle comes in here and says it doesnt stack, we should assume it does from other casters.
[/ QUOTE ]Except that assumption flies in the face of City of Data, which is using the in-game data. Essentially, you are either assuming that Red Tomax is getting incorrect information, or that the game mechanics do not function as has been demonstrated in the past.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So unless Castle comes in here and says it doesnt stack, we should assume it does from other casters.
[/ QUOTE ]Except that assumption flies in the face of City of Data, which is using the in-game data. Essentially, you are either assuming that Red Tomax is getting incorrect information, or that the game mechanics do not function as has been demonstrated in the past.
[/ QUOTE ]Yes city of data has been wrong. It sure as hell isnt updated now is it. Furthermore there are a few instances were it doesnt even show numbers for data. Like look at the passives for stalker SR. It doesnt show how much the scaling resistance is provided. It just says unknown attribute. Even the real numbers in game doesnt show it for stalkers but it does for brutes and scrappers. So before you come in here saying CoD showed be quoted as the gospel get your facts straight. Dont get me wrong CoD was a good tool to use prior to the real number interface but now its not as useful.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
Yes city of data has been wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]Please tell me when it has been wrong, barring the period between I7 and I9(?) when it wasn't being updated.
[ QUOTE ]
It sure as hell isnt updated now is it.
[/ QUOTE ]Yes it is, and it's updated frequently - almost in time with the game patches (since we have Test Server access)
[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore there are a few instances were it doesnt even show numbers for data.
[/ QUOTE ]The SR passives, like some other powers are quite literally special cases to the powers system. They've got expressions to determine the value of the effect, rather than static scalars multiplied by a value pulled from a lookup table. Most of the expressions are based on your health, or similar in-combat circumstances, and aren't very useful outside the game anyway. And even if Tomax did alter CoD to accommodate for the special case expressions, I believe they're in postfix notation, which most players wouldn't understand anyway.
[ QUOTE ]
So before you come in here saying CoD showed be quoted as the gospel get your facts straight. Dont get me wrong CoD was a good tool to use prior to the real number interface but now its not as useful.
[/ QUOTE ]There are still many instances where CoD is more accurate or more complete than the "Real Numbers" (which is really just "Most Of The Numbers We Think You'd Find Important"). So much so that, unless you actually go and bring proof of your claims which can be reproduced, I'll believe CoD over you.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes city of data has been wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]Please tell me when it has been wrong, barring the period between I7 and I9(?) when it wasn't being updated.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, right now Defender Soul Drain is incorrect. On Live it has a 120s rech. (There was a patch note for it to be boosted to 240s, but it either never went into the Live build, or the old values were reintroduced.) I tested it a couple days ago.
That, and Dominators haven't been updated yet.
Still, most times, I'm willing to give CoD benefit of the doubt. It's right far more often than not.
[ QUOTE ]
There are still many instances where CoD is more accurate or more complete than the "Real Numbers" (which is really just "Most Of The Numbers We Think You'd Find Important"). So much so that, unless you actually go and bring proof of your claims which can be reproduced, I'll believe CoD over you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which, is funny, since I brought reproducible (Well, if you have a Mercs Mastermind, some Ach Heel procs and a Power Analyzer Mk III) evidence that it doesn't stack, complete with screenshots showing the values I got and how to get them yourself easily.
I could even FRAPs it, but it would be a waste of my time.
Does the pvp -res IO stack with an achilles on the same toon?
If I put Achilles Heel: Chance for Resist Debuff or Lady Grey's Chance for Negative Energy in a pet (Example Thugs Enforcer) would it proc the 20% chance every time they use their attack that debuffs defense?