Do you like tanker /ice?
By
Barata,
Posted on: 2009-06-23 17:42 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Ice Armor, but more specifically Ice Patch and Chilling Embrace, is far more effective at mitigating attacks from all foes in melee range than Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom combined due mostly to magnitude limitations on the latter two powers.
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Brute Cloak of Fear affects Lieutenants, by the way, so I am not sure what you mean by mentioning that and magnitude restrictions.
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Because Ice Patch and Chilling Embrace have no limitations.
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Chilling embrace max targets 10
Ice patch max targets 5
Oppresive gloom max targets 10
Cloak of fear max targets 10
I'm not seeing any significant mitigation difference here. In a typical spawn with 1 boss, Cloak of Fear and Oppresive Gloom are going to shut down just about everything. If they are combined with fears or stuns from a melee set, it will be even worse.
In short, I don't believe that an Ice/Ice brute would be any worse off than a Dark/Dark brute as far as significantly shutting down the ability of spawns to counterattack.
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Your addition of Dark Melee serves no purpose, by the way. Yes, yes, "but Touch of Fear!". Won't matter. That power is mostly spot control, so the existence of Dark Melee doesn't matter in your case.
Both Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom have to hit the target for their effects to work, and they both require significant slotting in order to get any kind of appreciable "defensiveness" out of them. In addition, Fear effects break temporarily when the target takes damage, usually resulting in a counter-attack from the target.
Ice Patch and Chilling Embrace require no real additional slotting, don't have to hit the target for their effects to work, and once foes are affected by Chilling Embrace, their ability to fire off attacks can drop so low as to trigger the FLEE! response mobs have.
With that said, I still think the sets should have stayed.
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I mentioned dark melee because of the mag difference which you seem so obsessed about so that bosses could be affected. EM would also work if you wanted to go via stuns though.
In short, I still disagree with you. Having played an Ice/Ice tank to 50 and a Dark/Dark brute to the high 40s, I see no appreciable difference between their abilities to slow down the attack rates of a typical spawn.
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I'm not obsessed about the Mag difference, but your total dismissal of it is amusing. I guess you fail to realize just how important the differences between Chilling Embrace + Ice Patch and Oppressive Gloom + Cloak of Fear really are. Magnitudes guarantee that fewer foes will be effected by the later combination, and Cloak's 50% base accuracy hinders it even further (hence my previous claims of them needing heavy slot investment to get any kind of appreciable defensive return). This alone proves my point, but the additional difference of the latter combination requiring ToHit checks further limits its effects on Fury Generation.
Your experiences as an Ice/Ice tank have nothing to do with Brutes, especially in this case as it pertains to the generation of Fury. You apparently had no experience with Ice/Ice on a Brute during CoV beta (I did). It was a vastly superior tanking combination, but a rather poor combination when it came to doing what Brutes were originally designed to do.
AGAIN, with that said, I still would have preferred the Ice sets to have remained in the game for Brutes, but I'm glad you disagree with me, apparently.
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...If you look at my original post in this thread that you had issues with (just look at the top of this page, for easy reference, as your reply is right there and included my post), I stated that I *did* have experience with an Ice/Ice brute in CoV beta.
In a typical spawn, the magnitude difference between Cloak of Fear (affects Lieu's and below) and Chilling Embrace (affects all) is negligable, because there will be only 1 boss which you can affect with Touch of Fear. Oppresive Gloom only affects minions, so needs more work from say EM to get things going.
*You* on the other hand are "amusing" by your "total dismissal" of the 5 cap limit in ice patch, since this very clearly is relevant in teams.
Also, although AOE attacks make fears less useful (though they still seem significantly slowed down in their attack rate), AOE immobs make ice patch equally useless. Each has their faults.
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A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
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I'm somewhat torn on it, actually. On one hand, I like it, on the other I don't like running around with so few attacks at low levels, and the lack of Ice Sword Circle makes me envious of dominators. 
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Frozen Aura is not only better damage, but cooler looking.
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My biggest beef is in line with what Psyonico posted about the powers layout. Frost might be improved, but dayam, that is a long haul for the next actual attack power, and the dmg output till you get there is sucktastic.
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That being said, I'd roll an ice/ brute/scrapper in a heartbeat, because I'd only have to wait till 18 to get more attacks, and it's entirely reasonable to assume the devs would do a power re-order to make it even more tempting.
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My biggest beef is in line with what Psyonico posted about the powers layout. Frost might be improved, but dayam, that is a long haul for the next actual attack power, and the dmg output till you get there is sucktastic.
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That being said, I'd roll an ice/ brute/scrapper in a heartbeat, because I'd only have to wait till 18 to get more attacks, and it's entirely reasonable to assume the devs would do a power re-order to make it even more tempting.
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Indeed. Part of why I made this thread actually. I was hoping more for "I wish they would swap Build up(or?) and (power x) to make more attacks available earlier" and the like, rather then spawn 2 pages of "cause brutes in betaz" idiotic ancient arguments. So many things have changed since cov beta that most of the arguments and "I was in it!!" anecdotes are irrelevant.
For instance, Ice/ scrappers. Would being a primary, and the base dmg uppage for scrappers make Ice/ that much better? Or would the underlying flaws found in it now still show? I am inclined towards the latter. Maybe frozen fists will feel more adequate and less of an endurance waste, and ease the wait for more attacks(lvl 18 instead of 28). Then again, maybe a low lvl Ice/ scrapper compared to other scrappers would magnify the issues more then comparing tanker secondaries does.
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Replace Taunt with Ice Sword Circle when Ice Melee is a Primary Powerset.
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i love ice anything(as the name implies), so yeah, it would be nice. /ice picks up a lot once you get freezing touch and greater ice sword. and the mitigation is not to be sneezed at.
I love it, because my ice/ice tanker is almost always at full health because of it. Ice slick FTW.
I think it would be awesome on a scrapper or stalker, with enough recharge and a secondary with no damage aura you can destroy huge mobs solo very very easily. Frozen aura does as much damage as foot stomp without
rage, and its cold damage so not easily resisted, it has the same recharge and a 13 second sleep, so get its recharge down and you can perma sleep entire spawns while you pick em off one by one with your single target attacks.
Come to think of it, it would be incredibly overpowered on a stalker, imagine: assassin strike, frozen aura, placate, assassin strike, frozen aura, etc.
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Ice Armor, but more specifically Ice Patch and Chilling Embrace, is far more effective at mitigating attacks from all foes in melee range than Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom combined due mostly to magnitude limitations on the latter two powers.
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Brute Cloak of Fear affects Lieutenants, by the way, so I am not sure what you mean by mentioning that and magnitude restrictions.
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I"m not convinced of magnitude differences much either. But the difference between Cloak of Fear and Chilling Embrace is that while Cloak will fear the enemies, the damage aura will continually break that fear causing them to attack (at reduced accuracy) and still build fury. With Chilling Embrace, you're absolutely slowing down how often you are attacked. Add in any Ice attacks and Ice Patch, and you're drastically decreasing it further.
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Generally whenever my brute sees noticeable fury gain from enemies attacking it means my brute is going to faceplant very soon.
It seems like a fair trade off, slower fury gain for increased survivability. Works for Granite. 
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Ice Armor, but more specifically Ice Patch and Chilling Embrace, is far more effective at mitigating attacks from all foes in melee range than Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom combined due mostly to magnitude limitations on the latter two powers.
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Brute Cloak of Fear affects Lieutenants, by the way, so I am not sure what you mean by mentioning that and magnitude restrictions.
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Because Ice Patch and Chilling Embrace have no limitations.
[/ QUOTE ]
Chilling embrace max targets 10
Ice patch max targets 5
Oppresive gloom max targets 10
Cloak of fear max targets 10
I'm not seeing any significant mitigation difference here. In a typical spawn with 1 boss, Cloak of Fear and Oppresive Gloom are going to shut down just about everything. If they are combined with fears or stuns from a melee set, it will be even worse.
In short, I don't believe that an Ice/Ice brute would be any worse off than a Dark/Dark brute as far as significantly shutting down the ability of spawns to counterattack.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your addition of Dark Melee serves no purpose, by the way. Yes, yes, "but Touch of Fear!". Won't matter. That power is mostly spot control, so the existence of Dark Melee doesn't matter in your case.
Both Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom have to hit the target for their effects to work, and they both require significant slotting in order to get any kind of appreciable "defensiveness" out of them. In addition, Fear effects break temporarily when the target takes damage, usually resulting in a counter-attack from the target.
Ice Patch and Chilling Embrace require no real additional slotting, don't have to hit the target for their effects to work, and once foes are affected by Chilling Embrace, their ability to fire off attacks can drop so low as to trigger the FLEE! response mobs have.
With that said, I still think the sets should have stayed.
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I mentioned dark melee because of the mag difference which you seem so obsessed about so that bosses could be affected. EM would also work if you wanted to go via stuns though.
In short, I still disagree with you. Having played an Ice/Ice tank to 50 and a Dark/Dark brute to the high 40s, I see no appreciable difference between their abilities to slow down the attack rates of a typical spawn.
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator