Try my 3 Arc Long Story and see:
Of Liberty and State
Part 1 : #218636
Part 2 : #218638
Part3 : #218648
I know... shameless plug, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
And to answer your question? From a writer's perspective, sometimes 5 missions is too short to tell the kind of story you'd like to tell. Taking the time to write a cohesive story from beginning to end means taking advantage of what's available to you. Sure it may be long... but at least the story will make sense!
Oh yes. One point I wanted to add. The endgame Arcs sure aren't 5 Missions long. From that standpoint alone, perhaps and Arcs designed for 45+ players should be 2 or more slots long.
Nothing wrong with multiarc stories. The current limitations we have on this system can sometimes hurt creativity. I know for my next few arcs they will be multiarc because of this. I have a story to be told and I feel that in order to get the best effect of it the size limit just wont work for me.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
I prefer it if each part of a multi-arc tells its own, semi-closed story (as in has a beginning, middle, and resolution). My "Revenge of Hro'Dtohz" arc, for instance, is part of my larger "This Is War" cycle, but it also tells a stand-alone story. IMO, that should be the standard format for multi-arcs.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
since MA is a TF... I think really long stories need to be multi arc... a grp would never get to the end if your arc was 4-6 hours long... soon we will get more slots so it wont be much of an issue... albeit you will prob have to pay for them...
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Do you think that each arc in a multi-arc story HAS to work as a standalone story as well as contribute to the overall piece?
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I believe every arc has to stand alone in some way. Think of them like movie trilogies - even though not every plot element may be resolved at the end, each movie has a definite beginning, middle, and end.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
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I prefer it if each part of a multi-arc tells its own, semi-closed story (as in has a beginning, middle, and resolution). My "Revenge of Hro'Dtohz" arc, for instance, is part of my larger "This Is War" cycle, but it also tells a stand-alone story. IMO, that should be the standard format for multi-arcs.
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This would be my prereq. If I play the first mission and it doesn't tell a story on it's own that's obviously part of a bigger whole, then I probably won't bother with part 2.
<and now I'm going to have to look that arc up... curse you! 
>
Qr - the problem I have with the 'movie trilogy' concept is that depending on yr viewpoint, 5 missions might be seen as the equivalent of 20mins of screen time. There are loads of great 20-minute short films out there, but nobodies suggesting Star Wars would be as good if it was only 20mins long.
I'm not saying every arc needs to be as long as possible here. I've played some arcs that could have lost a mission IMO and been better. But I've also played some 5-mission arcs and thought that the idea had scope for more.
I think it depends on the story. As has been said, few of the canon arcs are 5 or fewer missions long.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I prefer it if each part of a multi-arc tells its own, semi-closed story (as in has a beginning, middle, and resolution). My "Revenge of Hro'Dtohz" arc, for instance, is part of my larger "This Is War" cycle, but it also tells a stand-alone story. IMO, that should be the standard format for multi-arcs.
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This would be my prereq. If I play the first mission and it doesn't tell a story on it's own that's obviously part of a bigger whole, then I probably won't bother with part 2.
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I'm assuming you mean arc not mission!
If the MA had launched with 8 missions as the standard for max arc length, people would be saying the same, only using 8 as the limit within the 'standalone story' had to apply. Yet a story now told in two arcs of four missions each gets some kind of black mark? I don't understand this kind of arbitrary qualification.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Each Arc having it's own story would be fine, but I think you should let the player know in the description they'd probably be better off playing the Arcs Sequentially. Or just label them Part1 etc. You don't want somoene coming in mid arc and wonder "what's going on? This story doesn't make sense." That's a quick way to a low rating.
Yeah, I have. They are called The Audition Part 1 and The Audition Part 2, and the desc for part one makes it clear it's part one of two. The desc for part two instructs to play part one first.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I don't understand this kind of arbitrary qualification.
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There's nothing unreasonable about expecting each arc to be self-contained, even if they're part of a larger story.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
I expect an arc to have a beginning, a middle and an end. There can be a next chapter ... but unless I got satisfied with the first arc, no way I'll hang around for your multi-epic.
It depends on the story.
Theres another reason I can think of for splitting one story into more than one arc - memory.
Not all multi-arc stories are in multiples of 5. The Audition as a whole, a 6 missions, is just one mission more than the limit for a normal MA arc.
The 100kb memory limit could prevent sb from making an arc that fit into 5 missions, if for example they had lots if different customs. It's possible that a 3-mission story using lots of customs could be split into 3 different 1-mission arcs, the whole coming in at between 200 and 300kb. 3missions is fairly average length for an arc. Downrating it because it's not in one arc (and for that reason alone) seems unjust to me.
Eco
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
[ QUOTE ]
I expect an arc to have a beginning, a middle and an end. There can be a next chapter ... but unless I got satisfied with the first arc, no way I'll hang around for your multi-epic.
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Could you give me your definition of 'arc'?
Edit: 2 things-I love your sig LOL, and not all multi-arc stories as I see them have to be 'epic'.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
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Qr - the problem I have with the 'movie trilogy' concept is that depending on yr viewpoint, 5 missions might be seen as the equivalent of 20mins of screen time. There are loads of great 20-minute short films out there, but nobodies suggesting Star Wars would be as good if it was only 20mins long.
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Star Wars also wouldn't have been as good if the first movie had ended with "To be continued..." It had a resolution of its own.
And as for being 20 minutes long...bad analogy. A movie can have a lot of extraneous detail, while a story arc has to be efficient in its presentation. Star Wars can essentially be broken down into: Mission 1: Find Obi Wan. Mission 2: Meet Han Solo. Mission 3: Rescue Leia. Mission 4: Blow up the Death Star. The rest is just extras.
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I think it depends on the story. As has been said, few of the canon arcs are 5 or fewer missions long.
Eco
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Many of the villain-side arcs and the newer zone-specific arcs are around 5 missions long, not counting fed-exes and hunts. Incidentally, those arcs are constantly cited as being "more interesting," and "less repetitive."
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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This would be my prereq. If I play the first mission and it doesn't tell a story on it's own that's obviously part of a bigger whole, then I probably won't bother with part 2.
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I'm assuming you mean arc not mission!
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heh... yeah. Thanks for clearing that up. I think it is important that each arc stand on its own while still being part of the bigger whole. Dangling plot lines are fine. Having the feeling that I still don't know what the heck is going on, is not.
Hopefully I got it right that time. 
If you look at an arc as one book in a series of books, involving the same characters (i.e. Lord of the Rings), then you have to see that each of them really should be able to stand on their own as one complete part of an ongoing tale. You would not want to bother reading it if each book ended by telling you that you needed to read another book, or 3 or 4 more books, to get to any real conclusion, even to that first part of the story. It leaves the reader (player) frustrated that he wasted all that time reading it just to get to the 'to be continued' tag-line at the end. There's no satisfaction for the reader if there is no climax or conclusion to the first part of the story.
It seems a little too much like a cheap trick that the author is playing on the reader just to get them to buy another book. I certainly wouldn't bother getting sucked into buying the next book, especially if I knew it could be a never-ending story that just keeps dangling a carrot in front of my nose at the end to get me to shell out more money/time for the next 'chapter'.
If the first story can solidly stand on it's own, and was interesting enough to make me consider reading the next story in that sequence, then the author did his job well and his stories are worth my investing more time/money into continuing to read the rest of the series. Otherwise, I'd just shrug the whole thing off as not being worth my time or my frustration level because I'll never really be able to get to a completely satisfying ending to any of it.
The other thing to consider in making arcs as a series that can't stand on their own as individual arcs, what happens if the Devs decide that they like the series, or at least part of it? Would they be forced to make all of the parts Dev's Choice, or would they just end up having to ignore it? If they wanted to award one DC, it's less likely that they'd hand out 3 awards to the same author for the price of one. If an arc can't stand on it's own, I doubt you'd ever get a DC on any of the parts. That might not matter to you, but if it does and you're hoping to get the DC bonanza of a 3fer, I think you could be waiting for a very long time.
No AV/EBs Deal with The Devil's Pawn-207266 Slash DeMento and the Stolen Weapons-100045 Meet the Demon Spawn-151099 Feedback
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I expect an arc to have a beginning, a middle and an end. There can be a next chapter ... but unless I got satisfied with the first arc, no way I'll hang around for your multi-epic.
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Could you give me your definition of 'arc'?
Edit: 2 things-I love your sig LOL, and not all multi-arc stories as I see them have to be 'epic'.
Eco
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I think my definition of an "arc" is pretty much the same as a lot of people here, based on their responses. For me, its a complete story. Like Star Wars. (the original) It can stand alone (not like the sequel, which made me wait a year for the fate of Hans Solo.) 
On the other hand, you've made some good arguments as that 100 limit gets eaten up quickly by customs, which are the only types of mobs I enjoy facing in MArcs. 
In a perfect world ... and with a story that actually deserved it ... I guess I could see myself going from arc to arc to get one complete story. But I don't hold out much hope ... as I fear that most authors would just be self-indulgent and create the equivelent of a 4 or 5 hour movie that should have been edited down to make a tight, well paced 2 hour movie.
So while I can generalize my dislike for this, I can't say that you yourself couldn't create a good multi-arc story.
What I know I wouldn't want is a continuing story that I'd have to wait for, like a monthly comic book. I'd want it all released at once so I could continue through to completion.
And in the best of all possible worlds - in my opinion -- every arc in the story would be exactly one mission long, with all the space being used up by more custom mobs, more patrols and other dialogue opportunities to advance the story's plot and theme forward, not more chapters.
(Easy for me to say, since I haven't created ANY arcs myself. But I enjoy movies too, and I haven't created any movies either.)
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This would be my prereq. If I play the first mission and it doesn't tell a story on it's own that's obviously part of a bigger whole, then I probably won't bother with part 2.
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I'm assuming you mean arc not mission!
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heh... yeah. Thanks for clearing that up. I think it is important that each arc stand on its own while still being part of the bigger whole. Dangling plot lines are fine. Having the feeling that I still don't know what the heck is going on, is not.
Hopefully I got it right that time.
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I think I need to make a distinction between multi-arc stories that are divided into delineated Chapters, such as the aforementioned 'This Is War' series, the first of which is 'Part I - the Revenge of Hro'Dtohz' (1356 to stick another plug in ), and the type of thing I'm more referring to, which is a single story that just happens to have one or more of its component missions in different arcs.
I can use Star Wars again as an example. I've got the six Star Wars films on my iPhone. I watched them in half hour chunks on the Metro on my way to work (my Metro ride lasts exactly 32 minutes). So Episode IV was experienced by me in three separate parts, three different 'arcs' by my way of looking at this particular type of story progression. I didn't need each half hour segment to have a discrete beginning, middle and resolution tying up all most of the internal plot threads, because I understood that each segment was part of a contiguous whole. Viewing a multi-arc story like this can maybe open the Player up to some good stuff he or she might otherwise miss due to the arbitrary 'Talk to the hand! It's over 5 missions! Too Long;Didnt Play!' reaction.
It takes about 20 secojnds to click 'finished' on the complete screen of an MA arc, search the MA for an Arc Number, and start a new arc. I personally have no problems holding onto a story that's half way done for that long, before it picks up again in the first mission of the 'next' arc. I can easily see that gap as a literally momentary gap in the mission sequence.
If the arc sucks because the story sucks or the mobs are unbalanced, its irrelevant how many missions long the arc is, of course.
Someone's bound to bring up the old faithful about how 'a good writer can learn to be concise' before long, so I'll say here that i agree with that. But just because skilful editing and working tom limits often brings a leanness and elegant simplicity to a well-crafted story, it doesn't follow that ALL long stories are bad. Those of us who ratre Stephen King, for example, may look to The Stand as a mighty good book. I do, and i don't think it would be better if it were edited down to 100 pages. People who like to read but think King sucks will no doubt have equivalent long favourites by other authors.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
[ QUOTE ]
If you look at an arc as one book in a series of books, involving the same characters (i.e. Lord of the Rings), then you have to see that each of them really should be able to stand on their own as one complete part of an ongoing tale. You would not want to bother reading it if each book ended by telling you that you needed to read another book, or 3 or 4 more books, to get to any real conclusion, even to that first part of the story. It leaves the reader (player) frustrated that he wasted all that time reading it just to get to the 'to be continued' tag-line at the end. There's no satisfaction for the reader if there is no climax or conclusion to the first part of the story.
It seems a little too much like a cheap trick that the author is playing on the reader just to get them to buy another book. I certainly wouldn't bother getting sucked into buying the next book, especially if I knew it could be a never-ending story that just keeps dangling a carrot in front of my nose at the end to get me to shell out more money/time for the next 'chapter'.
If the first story can solidly stand on it's own, and was interesting enough to make me consider reading the next story in that sequence, then the author did his job well and his stories are worth my investing more time/money into continuing to read the rest of the series. Otherwise, I'd just shrug the whole thing off as not being worth my time or my frustration level because I'll never really be able to get to a completely satisfying ending to any of it.
The other thing to consider in making arcs as a series that can't stand on their own as individual arcs, what happens if the Devs decide that they like the series, or at least part of it? Would they be forced to make all of the parts Dev's Choice, or would they just end up having to ignore it? If they wanted to award one DC, it's less likely that they'd hand out 3 awards to the same author for the price of one. If an arc can't stand on it's own, I doubt you'd ever get a DC on any of the parts. That might not matter to you, but if it does and you're hoping to get the DC bonanza of a 3fer, I think you could be waiting for a very long time.
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I totally agree with you about the books, but a big difference between books and the arcs we can make in the MA is that whereas a book might take anything up to a week to read, an arc is generally completable in one sitting, and the next arc is free and incredibly easy to access.
I feel that insisting that we have to tell a complete story with a beginning, middle and end within 5 missions ignores the issue of whether or not the story in question has any creative merit.
Try this thought experiment; Imagine that I14 had launched with a new MA system in which we could make our own story arcs for other players to play end enjoy. We could create and publish up to three arcs, each of which could be a maximum of six missions long or 120kb in size.
In that alternative universe, we're possibly having a discussion of how I think a 7-mission story spread over 2 arcs should still be treated as one story if that's what the author intended, and I'm being countered by people who say 'Nope, each arc's gotta stand on its own two feet.'
My point is that the number FIVE we have as the mooted maximum mission length for a story is not given to us through any natural storytelling law or Rule of Narrative - it's just an accident of the way the MA works. And even if you're some kind of puritan about the 5 mission limit, a multi-arc story could easily be less than 5 missions long. Also, nowhere have the devs said that one arc is the limit for one story.
I have no problems with the notion that a story or a chapter or an episode of a series should stand up as somewhat standalone, but as far as i'm concerned, the gap between arcs can be treated the same as the gap between missions if the Author intends those missions or arcs to be parts of one story. I have not encountered a convincing argument for why all stories irrespective of their individual merits need to be contained within one arc, or for why it's wrong or bad writing to tell one story over more than one arc withiout each one working alone, considering the ease with which the subsequent arcs can be accessed.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
[ QUOTE ]
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I expect an arc to have a beginning, a middle and an end. There can be a next chapter ... but unless I got satisfied with the first arc, no way I'll hang around for your multi-epic.
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Could you give me your definition of 'arc'?
Edit: 2 things-I love your sig LOL, and not all multi-arc stories as I see them have to be 'epic'.
Eco
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I think my definition of an "arc" is pretty much the same as a lot of people here, based on their responses. For me, its a complete story.
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In that case, we are actually thinking about the same thing, I think.
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Like Star Wars. (the original) It can stand alone (not like the sequel, which made me wait a year for the fate of Hans Solo.)
On the other hand, you've made some good arguments as that 100 limit gets eaten up quickly by customs, which are the only types of mobs I enjoy facing in MArcs.
In a perfect world ... and with a story that actually deserved it ... I guess I could see myself going from arc to arc to get one complete story. But I don't hold out much hope ... as I fear that most authors would just be self-indulgent and create the equivelent of a 4 or 5 hour movie that should have been edited down to make a tight, well paced 2 hour movie.
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I'll shamelessly stick another plug for my arc The Audition in here - originally it was 5-missions long, and first I created it, and then I tweaked it and edited the hell out of it to bring it down to within 100kb. I got there, and it fit, it was a little leaner than i'd have hoped for given the choice, about 20kb more would have been great, but I was happy enough with the arc, and I got some great feedback. Then, for no subsequently explained reason (I petitioned and Support had no answer) it mysteriously jumped to 107kb. I was gutted, and there really was nothing left for me to trim. instead, I chose to add an extra mission, expand the extant missions a little and publish it in two 3-mission arcs. I published them at the same time. it's just ONE story as far as I'm concerned, whioch happens to be spread over 2 arcs. I could have gone bloat-crazy, and added another 4 missions, but it doesn't need them. the mission I added was based on an idea I cut from the original because of space.
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So while I can generalize my dislike for this, I can't say that you yourself couldn't create a good multi-arc story.
What I know I wouldn't want is a continuing story that I'd have to wait for, like a monthly comic book. I'd want it all released at once so I could continue through to completion.
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Totally agree with you. I don't mind waiting a bit for episodes, but I don't weant to wait for the next 'page' of the same story, as it were.
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And in the best of all possible worlds - in my opinion -- every arc in the story would be exactly one mission long, with all the space being used up by more custom mobs, more patrols and other dialogue opportunities to advance the story's plot and theme forward, not more chapters.
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Not having to worry so much about memory on the two parts of The Audition was really freeing. i was able to go to town on system messages etc.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
One thing that strikes me as a possibility for improving the limits of an arc, as far as the number of missions goes, is that the number allowed in any arc should only be limited by the 100k file size. Though, I wish they increased that to at least 125k to give more possibilities for variety to those who just want to use customs. If you want to make an arc that requires 6 or 7 missions, you should be able to do that as long as it remains within the max size limit.
For people that want to use standard enemies, it would give them a lot more story possibilities where they could make some short missions and some longer missions depending on what the objectives are. That would be great for the kind of stories where you need to go to one place to find one quick objective, then to another place for another one. Mix & match, random lengths for more variety. Unfortunately, if people want to use customs, they will probably never be able to go over 5 missions unless they use a minimal amount of custom enemies in their group. But, it would certainly seem to make more sense that the number of missions should be unlimited up to the file size.
Of course, even better than that would be if we all got an open amount of file space to use per account. As of now, we would have 300k of space to use any way we want. That way, arcs that only require 30k or 40k wouldn't be wasting the rest of that 100k space that we're allowed now (saving us 60-70k). We could create as many arcs, with as many missions as we want per arc, that we could fit by using that total amount of file space as the only limitation. That could be a real win/win for everyone involved.
No AV/EBs Deal with The Devil's Pawn-207266 Slash DeMento and the Stolen Weapons-100045 Meet the Demon Spawn-151099 Feedback
I don't think I'll ever, ever play one unless I personally know the author. Ever.
Most of the stories are paper-thin to begin with, so when they stretch them out over 15 missions? No thanks.
What's your opinion on multi-arc stories?
Too long, no matter what they're like?
Mmm, more stuff-yes please?
Do you think that each arc in a multi-arc story HAS to work as a standalone story as well as contribute to the overall piece?
Can the first arc of three, for example, end without a resolution? Do you treat the 'break' between arcs as an accident of the 5-mission limit, or as a hard limit that signals it's time to form a judgement?
Or do you judge each case depending on individual merit?
I ask because I already have a two-arc story, The Audition, which is just one 6-mission arc as far as I'm concerned. It's in two 3-mission arcs, and I have made the third mission more 'epic' than the preceding two, for those who like a finale-ish sense from the mission that ends with the MA rating screen, but it isn't a standalone Chapter One on it's own. In also working on a 3-arc story ATM, and I'm wondering how to approach the end missions for the two first parts.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)