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Team Teleport and Ninjas are made for each other. I set them on agressive and let them go as I TP from group to group with them. I rarely lose any and they melt mobs.
I do not have to do any ninja micromanaging with Team TP. They are exactly where I put them.
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Ninja on aggressive?! *shudders* I have seen ninja run rampant if put in aggressive. It's rarely IMO worth doing.
[/ QUOTE ]I can agree with that. Due to the retarded AI I have to use goto aggressive on jounin and oni otherwise they never use their swords, all while keeping the genin on defensive follow. It might be different with team tp because they would already be in melee and use all their attacks.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Ninja on aggressive?! *shudders* I have seen ninja run rampant if put in aggressive. It's rarely IMO worth doing.
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That's half the fun! 
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ninja's dont have force fields, ninja's bring pain but also live in japan which gets hit by some huge storms tsunami's and typhoons and monsoons.
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They also are more sneaky assassin than front-line fighter; that's the Samurai. And they don't get wenches. Ya ya, we've heard it all before 
"Hey! You knocked generic cola all over your precious D20 books!"
ED: Now I know how Nancy Kerrigan felt: "Why...?!? Why...?!?"
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Team Teleport and Ninjas are made for each other. I set them on agressive and let them go as I TP from group to group with them. I rarely lose any and they melt mobs.
I do not have to do any ninja micromanaging with Team TP. They are exactly where I put them.
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Ninja on aggressive?! *shudders* I have seen ninja run rampant if put in aggressive. It's rarely IMO worth doing.
[/ QUOTE ]I can agree with that. Due to the retarded AI I have to use goto aggressive on jounin and oni otherwise they never use their swords, all while keeping the genin on defensive follow. It might be different with team tp because they would already be in melee and use all their attacks.
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Exactly! It's not as horrific as you might think actally. It's actually pretty damn great as far as MM's go. You unleash a high damage set to do exactly what they do best. And if you are TPing them around, your placement is where you want them with one easy click. It was the quickest way to tame a set who's AI likes to run wild.
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
This
Oh the ninjas are deadly ansd silent. Their also unspeakably violent. They speak Japanese, they do whatever they please, and if you tear off their masks they'll be smiling.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Ninja/Storms is fun. I have my numpad bound out to do various tasks to keep them in line, though. (sometimes jounin seem to just refuse to use their swords. Aggravating little monkeys) Bad stormies are the ones who run around just mindlessly knocking everything around...Hurricane can just as easily be a tool for keeping enemies pinned in place or herded tight for AOE splatterage. Just don't use Tornado unless you WANT to mess the battlefield up. It's good fun to watch that dervish go tearing around if you're in the mood for it, or possibly to cover your escape. Decent thing to use on enemies immune to KB, too.
About Team TP: don't rely on that idea too much. Any team you get onto will probably loathe you because Team Teleport bypasses the Teleport Prompt. I remember I was in a group of long while back, and the Thugs/Pain(i think) guy KEPT TEAM TPING. It was screwing up everyone else up, and dropping squishies into danger and he nearly got teamkicked for using it after being told to stop. Kept telling him that we HAVE prompt teleport on and that we WEREN'T clicking Accept, we weren't having the option to refuse. It's such a little piddly issue I doubt the devs have ever devoted the 5 minutes it would take to go and fix it :/.
A THUG mastermind using team teleport?! But, thugs don't want to be in melee (most of them anyway)
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
I can't imagine how frustrating that would be. I hate getting teleported.
I skipped Hurricane because I'd only ever seen clearly-retarded defenders using it to ill effect blueside. I'd taken jump kick for concept (and because I'd never done it before) but when I got fed up with it and decided to respec to pick up Combat Jumping instead, I grabbed Hurricane instead of Steamy Mist. Life could not have gotten better, and there's no way my squishy ninjas could have survived most of the CoT missions without it. Herding behemoths into corners and keeping them debuffed? Very yes. Providing melee protection to blast-happy corrupters on teams? Sure thing, thanks. Once my zombie storm gets high enough he'll grab it first thing - it might even be the power from Storm I consider least skippable at this point.
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A THUG mastermind using team teleport?! But, thugs don't want to be in melee (most of them anyway)
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and this is why you fail
the point of team teleport on a thugs is for optimal cone positioning as well as ensuring that the thugs remain in range of you at all times. nothing worse than getting near a mob, having your bruiser in int's face but your enforcers are behind you at max range - leaving your bruiser out of range of their manuevers, tactics and assault buffs.
and lets not also forget that you dont need to get teleport - team tp can be your only travel power if you wish. grab tp foe and recall friend. tp foe is great for dealing with sappers or splitting a hard spawn of flamethrowers you'd rather not rush headlong in to.
team teleport is fantastic for all mastermind primaries.
To OP:
Of the three secondaries you mentioned, I'd take pain off the list because (as others have mentioned) it is reactive and ninjas die pretty fast if they start getting hit.
I've played more than one nin/* to significant levels (40+), and they work best when you can stop things from swinging at them frequently. As such, the sets I found work well with nin/* are:
FF: because they become much harder to hit! As mentioned, it does suffer from boring-ness, but as also mentioned ninjas require more micro than most other MM primaries. I couldn't level my nin/FF significantly - mostly because I hate reapplying FFs.
Dark: much like FF, only you're debuffing the enemy instead of buffing the ninjas. The -dam on the enemies means your ninjas tend to survive hits, but get used to calling them back into defensive or fighting right up there with your flip-out-and-kill buddies. Dark is my second-favourite for ninjas, because of all the extra fun things you can do with it. Ninjas and tar patch is all kinds of cruel.
Storm: Freezing rain's knockdown adds a lot to your ninjas survivability. The rest of the set is fun in general, but storm is an acquired taste and requires practice to use well. Poor use of gale, hurricane, tornado or lightning storm will not make you friends! That said, /storm is my favourite secondary to pair with ninjas. In the late-game, tornado + hurricane + lightning storm is great in many EB/AV fights.
Trick Arrow: Aside from the obvious synergy if you take the attack primaries, trick arrow does wonders in the 'so much for their attack speed and damage' area. Trick arrow does take a bit to get started - the early levels are a struggle, but once you get past 20 the set really starts to shine. At 35, oil slick + disruption arrow + oni is all kinds of pyromaniac fun.
I would avoid:
Pain: Because by the time you get to do anything with it, your ninjas are dead. Ninjas require not being hit, and pain doesn't provide a whole lot of that.
Traps: Because ninjas are mobile in ways that traps aren't.
Poison (even though I took one to 50!): Because poison is fantastic against single targets, but as soon as you run into more than one or two enemies you're relying on your ninjas' own natural survivability awesomeness to stay alive. Ninjas don't have natural survivability awesomeness, so there's an obvious synergy deficiency there.
Caveat: Everything in this post is my own opinions from my own experiences. YMM and probably will V.
I disagree with pain. The casting times are fast enough that you can easily keep the ninjas healthy if you're careful. World of pain and suppress pain are damn nice with them as well.
Dark would be my second choice. Not a fan of the heal ability personally, though.
Traps: as stated, ninjas are too mobile to benefit.
Poison: is pretty bad for mms in general.
Storm: lots of damage and helps you survive, but buffs are too player focused for the fast and agile ninjas.
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Poison: is pretty bad for mms in general.
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Are you serious? Do you know how strong Poison is as a debuffer? I mean seriously.
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Poison: is pretty bad for mms in general.
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Are you serious? Do you know how strong Poison is as a debuffer? I mean seriously.
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Strong yes. Single Target, yes.
/Poison is by far the weakest secondary for MM. Believe me, I've tried A LOT of combos. I think Thug/Poison is a bit better because it is easier to put Noxious Gas on Bruiser but even that is weaker than other secondaries that can provide team supports. I've tried Thug/Trap that actually put me to sleep a bit (so strong).
Poison's debuffs are a bit over-rated anyway. Freezing Rain puts /Poison to shame most of the time.
PS: mmm, I am not sure which one is suckier.. Poison or Trick Arrow. I think I'll take Poison just because I can't imagine playing Necro or Ninja with Trick Arrow.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Poison: is pretty bad for mms in general.
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Are you serious? Do you know how strong Poison is as a debuffer? I mean seriously.
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Strong yes. Single Target, yes.
/Poison is by far the weakest secondary for MM. Believe me, I've tried A LOT of combos. I think Thug/Poison is a bit better because it is easier to put Noxious Gas on Bruiser but even that is weaker than other secondaries that can provide team supports. I've tried Thug/Trap that actually put me to sleep a bit (so strong).
Poison's debuffs are a bit over-rated anyway. Freezing Rain puts /Poison to shame most of the time.
PS: mmm, I am not sure which one is suckier.. Poison or Trick Arrow. I think I'll take Poison just because I can't imagine playing Necro or Ninja with Trick Arrow.
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I will, in fact, argue the point that Poison is a good debuffing set being that a majority of the debuffs are single target. Weaken is the prize winner of this set, in being that placing it with other assorted debuffs on more powerful enemies such as Archvillains or Giant Monsters, will effectively reduce them to mush. Honestly against a group of enemies Poison does have the utility of Noxious Gas (an AoE) and the extra added bonus of Neurotoxic Breath.
It's just the depth of perception and the current use of the secondary I suppose. Really good if you know what you're doing on teams, especially since the debuffs can be applied rather quickly with hasten on more of the hardier targets while the AoEs destroy the rest of the weaker opposition.
But you are right, it *can* be weak in certain situations, and strong in others. I just wish they would replace Poison Trap with something more useful. I'd still place it as one of the better debufing secondaries for MMs.
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But you are right, it *can* be weak in certain situations, and strong in others. I just wish they would replace Poison Trap with something more useful. I'd still place it as one of the better debufing secondaries for MMs.
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Actually, all it needs is a better effect. The Trap itself can remain, but a 10% End drain is worthless. Unless you can drain something to zero - and keep them there - sapping endurance is a waste of time. Which means that all this really is, is a way to possibly sleep hard targets, if you can get them into two at once.
Personally, since the sleep isn't likely to last long in any case (trigger happy pets...) just replacing the -End with a -Recharge would both make sense, and be much more useful.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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ninja's dont have force fields, ninja's bring pain but also live in japan which gets hit by some huge storms tsunami's and typhoons and monsoons.
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Speak or YOUR ninja. I have a ninja/ff mastermind who's story is he's actually a powerful psychic. He makes his enemies think their being attacked by ninja in hamster balls.. and he's so powerful the illusions do physical harm.
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omg that is so funny i want that power hamsters of doom
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Poison: is pretty bad for mms in general.
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Are you serious? Do you know how strong Poison is as a debuffer? I mean seriously.
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Strong yes. Single Target, yes.
/Poison is by far the weakest secondary for MM. Believe me, I've tried A LOT of combos. I think Thug/Poison is a bit better because it is easier to put Noxious Gas on Bruiser but even that is weaker than other secondaries that can provide team supports. I've tried Thug/Trap that actually put me to sleep a bit (so strong).
Poison's debuffs are a bit over-rated anyway. Freezing Rain puts /Poison to shame most of the time.
PS: mmm, I am not sure which one is suckier.. Poison or Trick Arrow. I think I'll take Poison just because I can't imagine playing Necro or Ninja with Trick Arrow.
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I will, in fact, argue the point that Poison is a good debuffing set being that a majority of the debuffs are single target. Weaken is the prize winner of this set, in being that placing it with other assorted debuffs on more powerful enemies such as Archvillains or Giant Monsters, will effectively reduce them to mush. Honestly against a group of enemies Poison does have the utility of Noxious Gas (an AoE) and the extra added bonus of Neurotoxic Breath.
It's just the depth of perception and the current use of the secondary I suppose. Really good if you know what you're doing on teams, especially since the debuffs can be applied rather quickly with hasten on more of the hardier targets while the AoEs destroy the rest of the weaker opposition.
But you are right, it *can* be weak in certain situations, and strong in others. I just wish they would replace Poison Trap with something more useful. I'd still place it as one of the better debufing secondaries for MMs.
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I used to be like you who think /poison can shine in "certain" areas like against AV/Giant Monster. Hell, my very first lvl 50 MM is Merc/Poison. I liked him a lot but /poison is too single-target oriented.
Comparing to /storm, /dark and /trap, poison just lacks the "aoe" protection that helps the 6 pets survive better.
I know my merc/storm is like 3x better than merc/poison. Just Hurrican alone is better than any of the debuffs from /poison. Yes, I know Weaken is special but if an AV is going after my pet, there is not enough damage debuff to keep him alive anyway. Freezing Rain is way better than Envenom too. FR debuffs 30% resistance, debuff defense, AOE and knockdowns!
I don't know man. I think Poison is alright when you are on a small team or soloing but that's about it. The set is pretty under-performing in my humble opinion. (Oh, Poison is pretty good in pvp but so is storm and trick arrow) And /storm can solo really well too. You can Hurrican anyway you like since nobody is going to complain.
Poison Trap is a piece of !@#$#. Why does it have 4s interrupt??
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Poison: is pretty bad for mms in general.
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Are you serious? Do you know how strong Poison is as a debuffer? I mean seriously.
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Not to mention ninja at high levels are pretty dang survivable. They need more assistance vs single hard targets that hit like a truck, but deal with most things handily. I find that alkaloid and the odd medicine pool heal is enough to keep them on their feat most times. Especially if I ensure the nasty stuff goes down first.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Poison: is pretty bad for mms in general.
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Are you serious? Do you know how strong Poison is as a debuffer? I mean seriously.
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Strong yes. Single Target, yes.
/Poison is by far the weakest secondary for MM. Believe me, I've tried A LOT of combos. I think Thug/Poison is a bit better because it is easier to put Noxious Gas on Bruiser but even that is weaker than other secondaries that can provide team supports. I've tried Thug/Trap that actually put me to sleep a bit (so strong).
Poison's debuffs are a bit over-rated anyway. Freezing Rain puts /Poison to shame most of the time.
PS: mmm, I am not sure which one is suckier.. Poison or Trick Arrow. I think I'll take Poison just because I can't imagine playing Necro or Ninja with Trick Arrow.
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Do you know what makes /poison so freaking nasty? Spammable -heal, -regen, and -special. I've seen EB's that love stun, holds, and knock backs never pulling them off due to -73% strength and duration to their effects. That -special for instance is the difference between a malta stun grenade disorienting you for a minute, or for 15 seconds.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Poison: is pretty bad for mms in general.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you serious? Do you know how strong Poison is as a debuffer? I mean seriously.
[/ QUOTE ]
Strong yes. Single Target, yes.
/Poison is by far the weakest secondary for MM. Believe me, I've tried A LOT of combos. I think Thug/Poison is a bit better because it is easier to put Noxious Gas on Bruiser but even that is weaker than other secondaries that can provide team supports. I've tried Thug/Trap that actually put me to sleep a bit (so strong).
Poison's debuffs are a bit over-rated anyway. Freezing Rain puts /Poison to shame most of the time.
PS: mmm, I am not sure which one is suckier.. Poison or Trick Arrow. I think I'll take Poison just because I can't imagine playing Necro or Ninja with Trick Arrow.
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Do you know what makes /poison so freaking nasty? Spammable -heal, -regen, and -special. I've seen EB's that love stun, holds, and knock backs never pulling them off due to -73% strength and duration to their effects. That -special for instance is the difference between a malta stun grenade disorienting you for a minute, or for 15 seconds.
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I'd rather they just not stun me, AKA /Trap's FFG. But yes, enemies with Heals that suddenly stop getting any real benefit from heals is funny, but not a huge all-around benefit, plus for being single target debuffs, you'd hope parts of the first two debuffs would be unresistable. I'd really like Alkaloid to be a Targeted AoE heal too, but I doubt either will happen until we get /Rad or something else added and it semi-trivializes parts of Poison.
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Poison: is pretty bad for mms in general.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you serious? Do you know how strong Poison is as a debuffer? I mean seriously.
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Strong yes. Single Target, yes.
/Poison is by far the weakest secondary for MM. Believe me, I've tried A LOT of combos. I think Thug/Poison is a bit better because it is easier to put Noxious Gas on Bruiser but even that is weaker than other secondaries that can provide team supports. I've tried Thug/Trap that actually put me to sleep a bit (so strong).
Poison's debuffs are a bit over-rated anyway. Freezing Rain puts /Poison to shame most of the time.
PS: mmm, I am not sure which one is suckier.. Poison or Trick Arrow. I think I'll take Poison just because I can't imagine playing Necro or Ninja with Trick Arrow.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you know what makes /poison so freaking nasty? Spammable -heal, -regen, and -special. I've seen EB's that love stun, holds, and knock backs never pulling them off due to -73% strength and duration to their effects. That -special for instance is the difference between a malta stun grenade disorienting you for a minute, or for 15 seconds.
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I don't find that -special so great. It is unique in /poison for sure.
Elite Bosses? They go down so quick now with any secondary besides /FF.
Against Malta, I would take /Trap over /Poison any day. The stun lasts forever and if you team, you are more than likely to face at least 2-3 lieuts with those stun grenades.
And besides, if you are /poison, you always start by holding the lieut first. I rather hold him than trying to reduce his stun duration 'cause 15s is good enough to kill me.
I do think /poison could be good in the newest SF.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Good thing about the special debuff is that it's spammable.
And yes, Poison alone is enough to bring Reichsman to his knees (quite literally).
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Poison: is pretty bad for mms in general.
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Are you serious? Do you know how strong Poison is as a debuffer? I mean seriously.
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Strong yes. Single Target, yes.
/Poison is by far the weakest secondary for MM. Believe me, I've tried A LOT of combos. I think Thug/Poison is a bit better because it is easier to put Noxious Gas on Bruiser but even that is weaker than other secondaries that can provide team supports. I've tried Thug/Trap that actually put me to sleep a bit (so strong).
Poison's debuffs are a bit over-rated anyway. Freezing Rain puts /Poison to shame most of the time.
PS: mmm, I am not sure which one is suckier.. Poison or Trick Arrow. I think I'll take Poison just because I can't imagine playing Necro or Ninja with Trick Arrow.
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Do you know what makes /poison so freaking nasty? Spammable -heal, -regen, and -special. I've seen EB's that love stun, holds, and knock backs never pulling them off due to -73% strength and duration to their effects. That -special for instance is the difference between a malta stun grenade disorienting you for a minute, or for 15 seconds.
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so?
with a kb prot io in ffg you dont need the -special, and poison trap and acid mortar take care of the rest
i'm sorry but for general play - and im speaking from experience with a 40+ thugs/poison - Traps is far superior especially once you start factoring in any amount of global recharge.
however on a team where tehre is already a disperson buble or ffg from another source, poison does shine.
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Team Teleport and Ninjas are made for each other. I set them on agressive and let them go as I TP from group to group with them. I rarely lose any and they melt mobs.
I do not have to do any ninja micromanaging with Team TP. They are exactly where I put them.
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Ninja on aggressive?! *shudders* I have seen ninja run rampant if put in aggressive. It's rarely IMO worth doing.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History