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Poison: is pretty bad for mms in general.
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Are you serious? Do you know how strong Poison is as a debuffer? I mean seriously.
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Strong yes. Single Target, yes.
/Poison is by far the weakest secondary for MM. Believe me, I've tried A LOT of combos. I think Thug/Poison is a bit better because it is easier to put Noxious Gas on Bruiser but even that is weaker than other secondaries that can provide team supports. I've tried Thug/Trap that actually put me to sleep a bit (so strong).
Poison's debuffs are a bit over-rated anyway. Freezing Rain puts /Poison to shame most of the time.
PS: mmm, I am not sure which one is suckier.. Poison or Trick Arrow. I think I'll take Poison just because I can't imagine playing Necro or Ninja with Trick Arrow.
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Do you know what makes /poison so freaking nasty? Spammable -heal, -regen, and -special. I've seen EB's that love stun, holds, and knock backs never pulling them off due to -73% strength and duration to their effects. That -special for instance is the difference between a malta stun grenade disorienting you for a minute, or for 15 seconds.
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so?
with a kb prot io in ffg you dont need the -special, and poison trap and acid mortar take care of the rest
i'm sorry but for general play - and im speaking from experience with a 40+ thugs/poison - Traps is far superior especially once you start factoring in any amount of global recharge.
however on a team where tehre is already a disperson buble or ffg from another source, poison does shine.
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First off, spell check is your friend buddy. Did you notice what all that -special covers? If not, then I'll list it once servers are back up. It's quite the list. And I can reliably keep it on 5 or 6 enemies. Although honestly, you don't need to debuff that many enemies usually. Just the really hard ones.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Poison: is pretty bad for mms in general.
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Are you serious? Do you know how strong Poison is as a debuffer? I mean seriously.
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Strong yes. Single Target, yes.
/Poison is by far the weakest secondary for MM. Believe me, I've tried A LOT of combos. I think Thug/Poison is a bit better because it is easier to put Noxious Gas on Bruiser but even that is weaker than other secondaries that can provide team supports. I've tried Thug/Trap that actually put me to sleep a bit (so strong).
Poison's debuffs are a bit over-rated anyway. Freezing Rain puts /Poison to shame most of the time.
PS: mmm, I am not sure which one is suckier.. Poison or Trick Arrow. I think I'll take Poison just because I can't imagine playing Necro or Ninja with Trick Arrow.
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Do you know what makes /poison so freaking nasty? Spammable -heal, -regen, and -special. I've seen EB's that love stun, holds, and knock backs never pulling them off due to -73% strength and duration to their effects. That -special for instance is the difference between a malta stun grenade disorienting you for a minute, or for 15 seconds.
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so?
with a kb prot io in ffg you dont need the -special, and poison trap and acid mortar take care of the rest
i'm sorry but for general play - and im speaking from experience with a 40+ thugs/poison - Traps is far superior especially once you start factoring in any amount of global recharge.
however on a team where tehre is already a disperson buble or ffg from another source, poison does shine.
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First off, spell check is your friend buddy. Did you notice what all that -special covers? If not, then I'll list it once servers are back up. It's quite the list. And I can reliably keep it on 5 or 6 enemies. Although honestly, you don't need to debuff that many enemies usually. Just the really hard ones.
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lol
your cluelessness is just astounding sometimes
traps is our most powerful general pve secondary. period. nothing has as many tools that actually work. nothing outside of force field replaces pets as infrequently. i have every secondary except storm at 40+ - i speak not from bs numbers in a planner or what others tell me, but what i've seen myself
but i already said this. GENERAL pve. there. now that's three times. yes there are instances where poison shines and in a team i prefer my poison and dark mm's over my traps due to how fast a team mows through mobs and how long recharges are on most traps powersets - but i can duplicate everything except the -special that poison has in traps, and a good chunk of what that -special would protect you as an individual from is in the ffg
and my spelling was quite fine for 3am thankyouverymuch, especially since there were no spelling mistakes but there were two typo's
oh and btw the following is everything that weaken does. lrn2cityofdata
DMG(All Types) -22.5% for 30s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
(same numbers as seeker drones)
ToHit -11.25% for 30s
(may as well be 0% vs. an av, and more than covered by +defense in FFG)
Stun, Sleep, Confused, Terrorized, Immobilize, Held, Knockback, Knockup, Repel -74.5% for 30s
(6 of those can be taken care of in FFG alone with a single IO)
RunSpeed, FlySpeed, ToHit, Endurance -74.5% for 30s
(why tohit is listed twice is beyond me as i doubt it debuffs tohit by 75%. runspeed/flyspeed is handled by web grenade. ever tried to drain an eb/av of endurance? yeah..)
DEF(All Types, Defense, Melee, Ranged, AOE) -74.5% for 30s
Effect does not stack from same caster
(now this is nice and unique, only 22.5% from acid mortar unenhanced)
Heal -74.5% for 30s [Non-resistable]
Effect does not stack from same caster
(same effect can be applied with poison trap)
Let me just end the poison debate by saying this. Its a great debuffing set but only for avs/ebs. Its not great for teams. Teams is where this set falls short. If the final power was a toggle or easily perma and had a bigger range it would fix all the problems, if they allowed the power to placed on allies too.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Let me just end the poison debate by saying this. Its a great debuffing set but only for avs/ebs. Its not great for teams. Teams is where this set falls short. If the final power was a toggle or easily perma and had a bigger range it would fix all the problems, if they allowed the power to placed on allies too.
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Yup. /Poison has its place due to its unique debuffs but that's about it. I think everything else is pretty under-performing. /Poison is good in pvp and against AVs.
I would take /storm over /poison any day except for some AV fights but I don't fight real AVs in every mish.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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traps is our most powerful general pve secondary. period. nothing has as many tools that actually work. nothing outside of force field replaces pets as infrequently. i have every secondary except storm at 40+ - i speak not from bs numbers in a planner or what others tell me, but what i've seen myself
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No, your arogence astounds me. I've teamed with /trap masterminds and found they had to replace pets about as often as I did. Which is to say, not often. You claim that /poison's single target nature makes it useless for general fights. No, it doesn't. By level 30 I found that 90% of the time my ninja didn't actually need much help to take things down. The odd heal, yes. Other then that what they needed was the hard targets being softened and their attention being focused. If you do those two things they don't need too much support. Heck, I've had entire missions where I didn't have to heal them even. And that's without me debuffing the enemies.
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oh and btw the following is everything that weaken does. lrn2cityofdata
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Oh, and I'm sorry. I don't have the time or patience to memorize every single web address people use in forum posts, and my bookmark for City of Data got lost when my old computer died. Nor is it really required since you can just log in and get all those same numbers with equal ease.
Also, did you notice a key difference between -special's defense debuff and acid mortar? That is that it isn't reducing the defense, but the person's capability of buffing defense. That means that BEFORE def debuff resistance kicks in your reducing the base value of their +defense powers. I've seen this in action while testing my AE arc I created. My Claw/SR scrapper got hit with it while testing, and my defense went down to about 8% despite high debuff resistance. Then I hit elude, and I only got about a quarter of it's def bonus. Granted, normally going from 30 defense to 110 defense is overkill. Going from 8 defense to 34 defense still can allow you to get hit frequently at times.
Again, explain to me why you feel that /traps is so vastly superior? It's for the most part stationary. It has a lot of powers which can be interrupted. Not to mention the fact that very little in it I find really helps that much if you have spastic melee pets.
You use your traps, I'll use my poison debuffs. And you know what? We'll probably go just as fast through missions. In fact, I may go a bit faster since I don't have to spent time preparing for every fight. I'll also do so with about the same level of safety as you. And during AV/EB fights you'll be resummoning pets just as often. Maybe more since you don't have as good of a way to recover from spike damage without dipping into pool powers.
So get off your high horse. /Traps may be strong, but it's not the end all and be all of debuffing sets. Neither is /poison. Both are equally strong, just geared for different strengths and weaknesses.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I would take /storm over /poison any day except for some AV fights but I don't fight real AVs in every mish.
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Every mission? No. But in the 40's you do fight them in nearly every story arc. many times multiple times in said story arc.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Wow...a very busy thread!
I tried Ninja/TA and I couldn't keep the little buggers alive past lvl 15 or so. I was a relatively new MM player then and Ninjas are so FAST that they often ran out of range and dies out of LOS of me.
Ninja/FF seemed to work well but like others I'm not a fan of FF. I have one at lvl 13 now that's ok but we'll have to see. Oh, and for those that complain about having to buff frequently, be thankful that most Def and Resist buffs (like FF) last 4 minutes. I HATE when my single Kin has everyone screaming SB! every 2 minutes.
I haven't mastered /Storm yet but I've read that it's good. I've also seen /Storm players in action and if they know what they're doing they can ROCK! Being able to push targets that have been Held or Immobilized into a convenient corner for the slaughter with Hurricane is huge.
I have a Ninja/Pain Dom at lvl 18 now and she may go by the wayside. Against many opponents the Genin die before they can be healed by any means. I'm going to try and stick it out to lvl 22 for the Regen toggle and Maneuvers as well as SOs.
Basically, try what you think you'll like and see. We can give you all kinds of advice but nobody can play the toon for you (without paying for a PL...). The most effective build in the world might get on your nerves. In the end you'll just have to try it and see.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
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traps is our most powerful general pve secondary. period. nothing has as many tools that actually work. nothing outside of force field replaces pets as infrequently. i have every secondary except storm at 40+ - i speak not from bs numbers in a planner or what others tell me, but what i've seen myself
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No, your arogence astounds me. I've teamed with /trap masterminds and found they had to replace pets about as often as I did. Which is to say, not often. You claim that /poison's single target nature makes it useless for general fights. No, it doesn't. By level 30 I found that 90% of the time my ninja didn't actually need much help to take things down. The odd heal, yes. Other then that what they needed was the hard targets being softened and their attention being focused. If you do those two things they don't need too much support. Heck, I've had entire missions where I didn't have to heal them even. And that's without me debuffing the enemies.
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oh and btw the following is everything that weaken does. lrn2cityofdata
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Oh, and I'm sorry. I don't have the time or patience to memorize every single web address people use in forum posts, and my bookmark for City of Data got lost when my old computer died. Nor is it really required since you can just log in and get all those same numbers with equal ease.
Also, did you notice a key difference between -special's defense debuff and acid mortar? That is that it isn't reducing the defense, but the person's capability of buffing defense. That means that BEFORE def debuff resistance kicks in your reducing the base value of their +defense powers. I've seen this in action while testing my AE arc I created. My Claw/SR scrapper got hit with it while testing, and my defense went down to about 8% despite high debuff resistance. Then I hit elude, and I only got about a quarter of it's def bonus. Granted, normally going from 30 defense to 110 defense is overkill. Going from 8 defense to 34 defense still can allow you to get hit frequently at times.
Again, explain to me why you feel that /traps is so vastly superior? It's for the most part stationary. It has a lot of powers which can be interrupted. Not to mention the fact that very little in it I find really helps that much if you have spastic melee pets.
You use your traps, I'll use my poison debuffs. And you know what? We'll probably go just as fast through missions. In fact, I may go a bit faster since I don't have to spent time preparing for every fight. I'll also do so with about the same level of safety as you. And during AV/EB fights you'll be resummoning pets just as often. Maybe more since you don't have as good of a way to recover from spike damage without dipping into pool powers.
So get off your high horse. /Traps may be strong, but it's not the end all and be all of debuffing sets. Neither is /poison. Both are equally strong, just geared for different strengths and weaknesses.
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lol
'nuff said
to each his own i find dark Mas makes so my pets never get hit in the first place an no set up time you run up and say hi with a debuff they atk ur pets atk back u continue debuffing and they die. its the player not the power sets that makes a type good. when i started i could play a tank to save my life or care to...then i found a power set i like and got a tank to 42 now...
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Also, consider this. If you have mag 1 mez protection (default), and the enemy uses a mag 3 hold it will hold you, right? Not if their debuffed by /poison. That hold is now a mag 0.81 hold. A single application wont affect you. Malta stun grenades seem to be mag 4 or higher base.
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Too bad it doesn't work that way.
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Also, consider this. If you have mag 1 mez protection (default), and the enemy uses a mag 3 hold it will hold you, right? Not if their debuffed by /poison. That hold is now a mag 0.81 hold. A single application wont affect you. Malta stun grenades seem to be mag 4 or higher base.
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Too bad it doesn't work that way.
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Too bad it actually does. I've seen mobs FAIL to mez because of using my debuffs. They hit, I see the mez icon, but it's mag got debuffed enough that I'm not effected. I've also seen KB attacks which fail to cause knockback, or even knock down after I debuff, but did before I hit them with the debuff.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Also, consider this. If you have mag 1 mez protection (default), and the enemy uses a mag 3 hold it will hold you, right? Not if their debuffed by /poison. That hold is now a mag 0.81 hold. A single application wont affect you. Malta stun grenades seem to be mag 4 or higher base.
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Too bad it doesn't work that way.
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Too bad it actually does. I've seen mobs FAIL to mez because of using my debuffs. They hit, I see the mez icon, but it's mag got debuffed enough that I'm not effected. I've also seen KB attacks which fail to cause knockback, or even knock down after I debuff, but did before I hit them with the debuff.
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When mezzes "fail" to mez you as you describe, their duration has been reduced so heavily that after all things accounted for(Lag), the duration simply wasn't long enough to be noticeable, but would have turned off an Offensive toggle regardless. Knockback might be susceptible to simply not taking effect, but that's because knockback enhancement boosts magnitudes and not duration.
As far as I know, there is no mechanic that reduces or increases magnitudes of Holds/Immobs/Fears/etc that isn't hard coded into a power, and according to CoD, there's no such effect when using Weaken.
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When mezzes "fail" to mez you as you describe, their duration has been reduced so heavily that after all things accounted for(Lag), the duration simply wasn't long enough to be noticeable, but would have turned off an Offensive toggle regardless. Knockback might be susceptible to simply not taking effect, but that's because knockback enhancement boosts magnitudes and not duration.
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Great idea, except for something else you should know. This was BEFORE the "defensive toggles don't shut off while mezzed" change. I would get hit by the hold, my patron smash/lethal resistance toggle would stay on, and I would move about just fine.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I'd rather they just not stun me, AKA /Trap's FFG. But yes, enemies with Heals that suddenly stop getting any real benefit from heals is funny, but not a huge all-around benefit, plus for being single target debuffs, you'd hope parts of the first two debuffs would be unresistable. I'd really like Alkaloid to be a Targeted AoE heal too, but I doubt either will happen until we get /Rad or something else added and it semi-trivializes parts of Poison.
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Actually... Uhm... /poison doesnt' need unresistable def and resist debuffs. It ALSO debuffs your ability to buff defense and resistance. My SR scrapper for instance will get seriously nuked by /poison if I forget to hit elude first. I witnessed myself going from 30ish defense to around 9% defense thanks to that -special. And THEN defense gets debuffed.
Also, consider this. If you have mag 1 mez protection (default), and the enemy uses a mag 3 hold it will hold you, right? Not if their debuffed by /poison. That hold is now a mag 0.81 hold. A single application wont affect you. Malta stun grenades seem to be mag 4 or higher base.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History