Apples.. meet oranges.
Every powerset has pros and cons. Every type of foe has it's pros and cons too.
Each character will be more/less effective depending on the foes he/she is fighting.
The effectiveness of -Recharge will depend which groups you are fighting too.
Having a character with great Holds and Immobilizes can be just as, or more effective to help keep the enemy at bay also.
Finding out the best way to deal with a situation all depends on what the team has, who the foes are, and everybody's play style.
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Apples.. meet oranges.
Every powerset has pros and cons. Every type of foe has it's pros and cons too.
Each character will be more/less effective depending on the foes he/she is fighting.
-Recharge will depend which group you are fighting too.
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That's a given on any powers vs. critter discussion; yet we still have those discussions.
I'm just looking for generic numbers, I suppose.
I'm asking primarily for my Ice/Ice Dom; it boils down to Shiver vs. Weave.
I know some would argue that any Def is better than no Def, however, my opinion is that low Def numbers + no -Def resis might not be all cracked up to what some may think; especially red-side.
If I end up dropping Weave, it would also affect how I have a few other slotted-for-Def powers; so I wouldn't just be losing the 6.5%.
However, I would be keeping Tough and Shark Skin; it seems that -Recharge might synergize with Res better but I could be wrong... maybe it works better with Def?
A few basic overviews/insights about how well -Recharge fits into the mitigation game would be helpful.
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*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Only thing I'd say about -Recharge vs. other forms of mitigation (especially +Def or +Res) is that' it's a debuff, and thus subject to debuff resistance. So if you higher levels/AV very frequently, you might want to figure out what the value turns into for those fights.
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Well, then that's a different story comparing two actual powers.
Shiver on a Dominator gives, base, a 65% Recharge Debuff.
Weave, on the other hand, provides a 4.25% Defense Buff.
Against even-level creatures, using a single 4 second recharge attack, the Defense Buff from weave will lessen damage by about 8.5% on average.
The recharge debuff, on the other hand, will take that 4 second attack to 11.43 seconds. That is, recharge debuffs give a post-mitigation value basically equivalent to the actual recharge debuff value, against even-level enemies.
Now, let's take a +2 enemy, where effects work at 65% value (I think). Against this enemy, your Defense value still gives about 8.5% damage mitigation. Shiver, against this enemy, is providing a 42.25% Recharge debuff, and is therefore still better.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Well, then that's a different story comparing two actual powers.
Shiver on a Dominator gives, base, a 65% Recharge Debuff.
Weave, on the other hand, provides a 4.25% Defense Buff.
Against even-level creatures, using a single 4 second recharge attack, the Defense Buff from weave will lessen damage by about 8.5% on average.
The recharge debuff, on the other hand, will take that 4 second attack to 11.43 seconds. That is, recharge debuffs give a post-mitigation value basically equivalent to the actual recharge debuff value, against even-level enemies.
Now, let's take a +2 enemy, where effects work at 65% value (I think). Against this enemy, your Defense value still gives about 8.5% damage mitigation. Shiver, against this enemy, is providing a 42.25% Recharge debuff, and is therefore still better.
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Will that stack with my other sources of -Rehcarge; Artic Air and the like?
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Well, then that's a different story comparing two actual powers.
Shiver on a Dominator gives, base, a 65% Recharge Debuff.
Weave, on the other hand, provides a 4.25% Defense Buff.
Against even-level creatures, using a single 4 second recharge attack, the Defense Buff from weave will lessen damage by about 8.5% on average.
The recharge debuff, on the other hand, will take that 4 second attack to 11.43 seconds. That is, recharge debuffs give a post-mitigation value basically equivalent to the actual recharge debuff value, against even-level enemies.
Now, let's take a +2 enemy, where effects work at 65% value (I think). Against this enemy, your Defense value still gives about 8.5% damage mitigation. Shiver, against this enemy, is providing a 42.25% Recharge debuff, and is therefore still better.
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Will that stack with my other sources of -Rehcarge; Artic Air and the like?
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Yes
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Well, then that's a different story comparing two actual powers.
Shiver on a Dominator gives, base, a 65% Recharge Debuff.
Weave, on the other hand, provides a 4.25% Defense Buff.
Against even-level creatures, using a single 4 second recharge attack, the Defense Buff from weave will lessen damage by about 8.5% on average.
The recharge debuff, on the other hand, will take that 4 second attack to 11.43 seconds. That is, recharge debuffs give a post-mitigation value basically equivalent to the actual recharge debuff value, against even-level enemies.
Now, let's take a +2 enemy, where effects work at 65% value (I think). Against this enemy, your Defense value still gives about 8.5% damage mitigation. Shiver, against this enemy, is providing a 42.25% Recharge debuff, and is therefore still better.
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Will that stack with my other sources of -Rehcarge; Artic Air and the like?
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Yes
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Up to a point. I think, and maybe wrong on this, that the Recharge floor is 25% (making powers take 4 times longer to recharge). Meaning that you can stack up to 75% Recharge debuff on the enemies before it stops stacking.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Well, then that's a different story comparing two actual powers.
Shiver on a Dominator gives, base, a 65% Recharge Debuff.
Weave, on the other hand, provides a 4.25% Defense Buff.
Against even-level creatures, using a single 4 second recharge attack, the Defense Buff from weave will lessen damage by about 8.5% on average.
The recharge debuff, on the other hand, will take that 4 second attack to 11.43 seconds. That is, recharge debuffs give a post-mitigation value basically equivalent to the actual recharge debuff value, against even-level enemies.
Now, let's take a +2 enemy, where effects work at 65% value (I think). Against this enemy, your Defense value still gives about 8.5% damage mitigation. Shiver, against this enemy, is providing a 42.25% Recharge debuff, and is therefore still better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Will that stack with my other sources of -Rehcarge; Artic Air and the like?
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Yes
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Up to a point. I think, and maybe wrong on this, that the Recharge floor is 25% (making powers take 4 times longer to recharge). Meaning that you can stack up to 75% Recharge debuff on the enemies before it stops stacking.
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Or does it continue to stack but hit it's active floor relative to any-rech debuffs the target may have?
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
All -recharge stacks on top of itself. This way you can stack a whole bunch of sources, and if they resist -recharge (level mod, rank mod, special resistances), you are still flooring their recharge.
Recharge floor is -75%, which is four times longer than normal.
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It would continue to stack. It's a lot like accuracy in that you can never have more than a 95% chance to hit somebody. Well, you can never debuff recharge more than -75%.
Additional stacking would still be helpful if the target has abilities that reduce the effectiveness of recharge debuffs.
minor nitpick: 65% effectiveness is for +3s; it's 80% for +2.
As for -recharge... it's nice, but how effective Weave is going to be will depend on how much extra defense you have from other sources. Defense stacks on itself nicely, while hitting the -75% recharge isn't all that hard, really. You can do that just with your single target chain.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
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minor nitpick: 65% effectiveness is for +3s; it's 80% for +2.
As for -recharge... it's nice, but how effective Weave is going to be will depend on how much extra defense you have from other sources. Defense stacks on itself nicely, while hitting the -75% recharge isn't all that hard, really. You can do that just with your single target chain.
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Not too much sustained Def available for Doms - I was looking at a little less than 22% ranged (my top Def score) from CJ, Weave, Pounding Slugfest slotting, LotG slotting... then a 60 sec +50% from Demonic + a smidgin ToHit Debuff mod from BIB.
For Resis; a sustained 55% S/L + a 60 sec burst of +30%.
Single Target -Recharge I wasn't to worried about; more concerned with [tackling] larger mobs (as opposed to more powerful mobs).
Ice Slick does [[great] for mob control, I know it doesn't add to -Rech]
AA does great but I currently have a ton of toggles and a heavy END chain
and Water Spout isn't doing too bad
...all against normal canon mobs... but now, I want to be able to pit her against the likes of AE MM mobs.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Don't higher level enemies also have more attacks available, making -recharge less effective at higher levels?
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Yes. Although it really depends on how fast you're going to defeat them, how long the recharge on the attacks are, and how many attacks they have.
However, Shiver is such a massive debuff that I'm pretty sure it will always be better than Defense.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Not too much sustained Def available for Doms - I was looking at a little less than 22% ranged (my top Def score) from CJ, Weave, Pounding Slugfest slotting, LotG slotting... then a 60 sec +50% from Demonic + a smidgin ToHit Debuff mod from BIB.
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True, but it depends on what sets you look at and what defense position you're aiming for. You can build up some nice defense with sets if you focus on it instead of recharge, and Scorpion Shield adds even more S/L/E defense - which are the most common damage types.
On the other hand, you can have a permanent -100% recharge in a 10' AoE around you using Arctic Air and Chilling Embrace (-50% recharge in each); against +2 mobs that's -80%, which hits the -recharge cap.
Shiver has the advantage of range, though - you don't need to be among them. I'm just saying that because the cap is so easy to hit, I usually don't worry about it.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
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Originally Posted by Brillig
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Basically -Rech is a multiplier on "how long you live". If you'd survive 20 seconds wtih no -Rech, with 50% -rech you survive 40 seconds. If you die in the alpha, you die anyway.
You can throw a medium purple in for tough fights and it'll stack with the Def to make you very tough for the first minute. (Which should get you through MOST fights...)
It is also very easy to get Shiver to stack with itself, if I remember, to produce "floored recharge" on damn near anything after about ten seconds.
Given the specifics: Shiver is tough to beat for mitigation. It really is.
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There's been plenty of conversation about Defense vs. Resistance. I would be interested in hearing your opinions on how effective max -Recharge fares as mitigation (post Alpha); as compared to both +Def (w/o -Def Res) and +Res.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars