"Psychic Blast" is overpowered!
By
Celestial_Fury,
Posted on: 2009-06-16 02:13 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Numbers are cool and all, but it really is pvp easy mode, and this a thread about pvp. I am not saying omg nerf it. I will say you can face roll with one and do pretty decent though. Yes I have one, yes I play it, yes I will continue to play it.
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Heh.
That's all I've got to say to that. Good day.
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Hey, it's not like numbers have anything to do with actual gameplay, right?
<.<
>.>
Exactly.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Everyone who actually pvps on a psi blaster posting in this thread please raise your hand.
Exactly.
Edit: I will try to add more detail to what I am trying to say so people will hopefully get a better grasp of what I mean. On paper Sonic should be the top and only set worth taking. In practice though psi really outperforms it by alot. Between having 4 st attacks and the placate proc you an wreck alot of havoc really fast and alot of times the target can't even get a chance in to retailiate. Like I said I am not calling a nerf I am just saying it really is head and shoulders above the other sets in pvp.
And as to comments like
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Sounds to me like a good thing. PVP being approachable might mean people do it.
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Pvp is no more approachable now than it has ever been. If you want to compete and really expect to win now the fotms are much more defined and pronounced. Where what we once had you could pretty much make work in zones you are now really required more than ever to take certain sets and certain powers.
and as for this one
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Heh.
That's all I've got to say to that. Good day.
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Please, go on. I would like to hear your opinions on how the blast sets play out in pvp. I am sure it will be a very stimulating conversation.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
My only point is that, in PVE, Psi Blast compares well with the top two sets while completely giving up any AoE viability at all for the honor of an additional 40' base range on it's attack chain.
In PVP, it's actually a far closer comparison (and only between Fire and Psi) then I had expected, however, everyone gets at least 40% Resistance to Psionics in PVP as well (reducing the total damage there), with the exception being Tankers, Brutes, Stalkers, and Scrappers only getting 10% base resistance... and enhancable well up to over 50% in some (most) sets with just SOs, and those sets that don't get more then 10% are purely defensive sets that get additional Psi defense instead.
However... this is kind of coupled with the fact that while every set does get some Psionic resistance base, they tend to get resistance to everything else at somewhat higher values. Invulnerability, the set with one of the bigger PVE holes of Psi damage, does however get more resistance to it (17%) then it does to Fire, Cold, or Energy (with Resist Energy/Resist Elements and Unyielding up, and all slotted).
Competes, sure, but it's also factored in already.
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It's no doubt psi blast is overpowered in pvp zones.
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Not at all. What makes you think that?
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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Yeah, the Defender version has a trio of hard-hitting single-target attacks that inflict some status effects on top of that.
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The Blaster version has the same status effects as the Defender version (the notable exception being Subdue got moved to the Mental Manipulation secondary and was replaced with Psi Dart, which has no immobilize). The major differences between the Defender and Blaster versions (speaking from a PvP perspective here) is Will Domination's damage scale got gutted in the Blaster version, and the range on the Blaster attacks is 80 feet, compared to the 100-foot range Defenders have.
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Blaster versions have longer recharges and shorter durations (or lower mag knockback) though. Will Domination had its damage gutted to the point of being totally worthless (outside of PvP I guess) as a damage power, but to compare the other stats:
Defender: 14s recharge, 23.8s sleep
Blaster: 20s recharge, 19.1s sleep
Also TK Blast:
Defender: 8s recharge, 8.31 mag KB
Blaster: 10s recharge, 6.65 mag KB
Overall, the Blaster psi is pretty crappy:
* The powers got longer recharges, and
* Shorter durations (which is the norm, but the two together rather sucks)
* Will Domination doesn't have the damage it should. With it only mezzing 80%, it's not a damage-dealer OR a mezzing power.
* The set lost its range with no compensation (like porting Claws to Brutes and just flat out stripping the end reduction)
* The immobilize power was replaced with a puny dart
* The cone is removed for Aim, which gives us the only set Blasters have with only one non-nuke AoE
Result is a set that is not very good for AoE (which isn't bad by itself) but also isn't very good for ST. Combine with it not being very good for debuffs or mez, and sprinkle with some highly resistant enemies at high levels.
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The sleep duration and kb magnitude being reduced is because of the AT scalars, no other reason.
If you think the sleep duration should be revisited due to longer base rech, all I can say is that very few (if any) powers that have been reworked seem to get any change in their secondary effect.
I agree psi isn't very good for pve, but this is a pvp discussion.
*Will dom does have the damage it should in pvp
*The range reduction does suck, but then again boost range has to be considered and psi is the longest range set for blasters (and arch). I think boost range is a silly power, it is good, but only available once in the whole game? that makes little sense.
*"puny dart" does 30% -rech and is easily stackable. The immob is decent, but every secondary gets on (cept energy)
*cone was removed, but it is also the only blaster set with 4 80' st attacks. It is one of the easiest sets to make a full ranged attack chain (along with arch).
*Set is loaded with control. It is arguably as safe as energy and iceblast combined.
Psi is fine, just different. It is very good in pvp. The set has almost identical st potential as the defender version (had that been ported), if was just shifted around. Losing psyscream hurts, but aim allows it to focus on what the set does best, which is long range st damage.
At full range (80ft) psi out-damages everything else. Flipping back to pve for a sec: At full range there are almost no cones or aoe powers that npc's use, so you only have to deal with their st attacks. At 40ft (ie blaze) you are vulnerable to aoes and cones. It makes a large difference, especially on a pve build that goes for +range def as is common.
For pvp a full 80ft chain is often much more effective than one that requires 40ft at some point. Add boost range (as most pvp'ers use /em) and the disparity grows. You can't run from a psi/em and that is before taking into account the status effects they inflict at full range (sleep, kb, heck even stun if they choose to, but none need it).
Psi is a very well rounded pvp set. Not the most damaging in ideal conditions, but in less than ideal it often is and it has tremendous utility and arguably the best for IO's.
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Crazy fast activation time. (especially tk blast)
Long Range (Most of Psi powers have 80 feet range. With boost range+PVP IO = 4 non-cast snipes!)
Psi Damage.
It's no doubt psi blast is overpowered in pvp zones.
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How are you being seen on your stalker from far away?
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Ah. I keep forgetting about that. :< Which means I'll have to run another estimate...
EDIT: And with those taken into account... The new figures:
Fire Blast: 444 damage
Ice Blast: 366 damage
Psi Blast: 411 damage
Psi Blast is still lagging behind Fire, but gets a significant boost over Ice. Telekinetic Blast actually has pathetic damage using the PVP values, but Mental Blast and Will Domination both made up a huge chunk of the difference in and of themselves. Yowza.
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Now run the numbers again, but only include attacks that can be used from 120ft away (/em boost range).
I used to run a lol fly, lol tp psy/em with range slotted attacks and perma boost range. I would just hover over any squirmish and rain death from about 150ft away. Most things would be dead before they could even figure out where the attacks were coming from heh.
Outranging everyone else AND dealing high damage has its perks. You have to get double AS'd to die too, now that ET is so slow. Any attack that could follow up kill you after an AS leaves time to pop a green or two. (Not that AS+ET can kill a +hp blaster unless they pop reds 
)
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Sounds to me like a good thing. PVP being approachable might mean people do it.
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by approachable do you mean:
slept, then knocked on your butt and dead before you get up from 100+ft away?
tk blast does 17kb (when slotted) that is enough to knock over most things you encounter in zone pvp.
I don't think psi is OP'd, but it is very easy to use. Most fights are over before they start. In a way similar to some stalkers, but usually requiring less offensive skill (all that range you know), but offset by requiring more survival skill (though phase and hibernate and hoarfrost make even that pretty easy in zone, but not as easy as never being seen heh).
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Ah. I keep forgetting about that. :< Which means I'll have to run another estimate...
EDIT: And with those taken into account... The new figures:
Fire Blast: 444 damage
Ice Blast: 366 damage
Psi Blast: 411 damage
Psi Blast is still lagging behind Fire, but gets a significant boost over Ice. Telekinetic Blast actually has pathetic damage using the PVP values, but Mental Blast and Will Domination both made up a huge chunk of the difference in and of themselves. Yowza.
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Now run the numbers again, but only include attacks that can be used from 120ft away (/em boost range).
I used to run a lol fly, lol tp psy/em with range slotted attacks and perma boost range. I would just hover over any squirmish and rain death from about 150ft away. Most things would be dead before they could even figure out where the attacks were coming from heh.
Outranging everyone else AND dealing high damage has its perks. You have to get double AS'd to die too, now that ET is so slow. Any attack that could follow up kill you after an AS leaves time to pop a green or two. (Not that AS+ET can kill a +hp blaster unless they pop reds )
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Archery can pull off higher numbers (428) and has a similar range advantage. Do we discount it because it's Lethal? Squishies only have 40% lethal resistance, and that's the same exact resistance they have to Psionic (barring Epic armors and Sonic 'fenders).
Psionic still only does 411.
Fire drops down to 331 (Fireball gets the full range benefit at all; Efficient, but this is a burst damage scenario we're talking about), with Electricity trailing at 277, and Ice at 323 (but it has a Hold factored in - Bitter Freeze Ray can hit that range as well). Sonic only hits 232, and Assault Rifle hilariously enough hits 421 (Full Auto cracks me up!). Energy is only at 286.
So, in rough order...
Archery (428)
Psi (411)
AR (421 - animation time kills it)
Fire (331)
Ice (323 -again, animations hurt but not enough to drop it)
Elec (277)
Sonic (232)
And that's all at max-range, but it's also worth noting that Assault Rifle can start from farther out. Snipes were discounted, though most sets would probably benefit from actually opening up with a snipe instead. This is also assuming you're Energy, and using it almost specifically for Boost Range.
Further points are that, while Psi/Nrg may be great for PVP, it's going to really suffer in specifically Group PVE through sheer lack of AoE options until the group hits hard targets (that hopefully aren't Psi or Energy reisistant).
I still don't see it as overpowered, though the comparisons were actually interesting to run. Note that secondary effects, factors besides damage, and animation times were mostly not considered (except when they were hugely excessive - Assault Rifle had 4 powers that qualified for this, one of them on a 6s cast time, and Ice had one on a 2.5s cast). This is all the base numbers (except range, which started out at 130 yards minimum - the base value [80'] plus the Boost Range bonus [60%], rounded up), and slotting will be a factor, as will Build Up/Aim.
Specific builds for specific fields are to be expected, and often 'specialists' tend to fail more often outside of their 'niche'.
EDIT: Forgot to mention and stress that once again, this is an opening burst-fire scenario. Almost universally, except for Psionic Blast and possibly Ice and Assault Rifle, almost every other set considered will be cycling their attacks far faster. Sonic, in particular, will have a ridiculous cycle time as it's only last due to having nothing but it's first two attacks available, and it's not even last by that much. Factoring in 40% PVP resistances (and my own limited experience in Siren's), that opening shot isn't going to be near enough to drop your target, especially if you can't make it all hit (It took a Rad/Sonic Defender about 30 seconds to drop my Bane Spider, and that's with Radiation Infection and Sonic's stacking -Resist factored in - If they'd been a Sonic/* Blaster instead, they'd have had a harder time landing solid hits).
Arch is perfect to include, I said in one of the other posts it is the other long range set.
It "should" be ahead of psi, it has almost no mitigation, and psi has heaps from that range.
The pve performance is irrelevant in a pvp discussion.
I certainly didn't say it was OP'd, just a very good pvp set.
Personally if I were rolling a new blaster it would be arch/em. Astounding pve performance and very good zone pvp performance. But if for some reason I forgot that new pvp is teh suck and rolled a toon specifically for that it would probably be psi/em.
Yeah. Actually running the numbers, I can certainly see now why it's so popular, and that could be explaining a lot of it.
Still not overpowered, though, which was the OP's point. :/
I personally find the PVE points relevant, because unless you're PL'd and funded almost exclusively from a different character (entirely likely - but not how I run my ship), you're going to have to be doing something to get tricked out and to 50. That, and what are you gonna do when there's nothing going on in the PVP zones? You could certainly switch characters, but that still leaves you the problem that outside of PVP that particular character is incredibly sub-par compared to some of the other options.
I gotta consider all the angles when I look at a problem, and I tend to weigh all of them similarly.
i lol at this thread, seriously yo anyone who posts a thread about something beiong OP in pvp obviously got their [censored] handed to them, why not just say "GG k thnx bai" like a pvper and then go roll a psi/em or make something to counter it.
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In PVP, it's actually a far closer comparison (and only between Fire and Psi) then I had expected, however, everyone gets at least 40% Resistance to Psionics in PVP as well (reducing the total damage there), with the exception being Tankers, Brutes, Stalkers, and Scrappers only getting 10% base resistance... and enhancable well up to over 50% in some (most) sets with just SOs, and those sets that don't get more then 10% are purely defensive sets that get additional Psi defense instead.
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Was this changed in I14? Cause Tankers and MasterMinds get 0% Resistance in PvP zones as of I13.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Isn't there a PvP Forum this kind of whining should go into?
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and as for this one
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Heh.
That's all I've got to say to that. Good day.
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Please, go on. I would like to hear your opinions on how the blast sets play out in pvp. I am sure it will be a very stimulating conversation.
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I was mostly trying to avoid the obvious comparison to the WoW forums regarding the "faceroll" comment. Everyone thinks that anything remotely viable in PvP is a "faceroll" class/spec because these same people feel that their unique flower AT/Spec is just too good (and they often wonder why no one else has noticed -- it must be all the faceroll classes!)
For those who are unaware, the term "faceroll" is used extremely literally to describe the player rolling their face on the keyboard and destroying opponents. It's to represent skill-less and easy-to-use play.
The numbers have already pointed out that Psi Blast is between Ice and Fire for damage numbers, but gives up all the hard/soft control of Ice in order to do so (and it's still below Fire). Sonic only looks good on paper because you're taking into account the resistance debuff which, with how how PvP works, you likely won't have it on them for the entire fight. The two control powers being a single-target Stun and a Cone Sleep aren't enough to put the set beyond mediocre. In short, Psi Blast doesn't have to rely on a debuff to do above-average damage, just like Ice or Fire... yet it still falls short of Fire anyway even ignoring that Fire can pump out far superior AoE numbers in addition to its single-target superiority. So does Ice, for that matter, regarding AoE and as pointed out earlier, it does a far better job of controlling the target than Psi.
I play a flying Energy/Energy Blaster in PvP with a heavy lean on ranged damage, so I'm no stranger to blasting.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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in pvp.
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There is still pvp in this game ? Last time I checked it was totally broken to the core.
So for the only matter that's left, aka pve, no Psi blast is not overpowered at all. It could even need a buff or two as a blaster set.
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In PVP, it's actually a far closer comparison (and only between Fire and Psi) then I had expected, however, everyone gets at least 40% Resistance to Psionics in PVP as well (reducing the total damage there), with the exception being Tankers, Brutes, Stalkers, and Scrappers only getting 10% base resistance... and enhancable well up to over 50% in some (most) sets with just SOs, and those sets that don't get more then 10% are purely defensive sets that get additional Psi defense instead.
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Was this changed in I14? Cause Tankers and MasterMinds get 0% Resistance in PvP zones as of I13.
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Every Tanker has one toggle that will provide either Psionic Resistance (up to 20-30%, enhancable) or Psionic Defense.
Masterminds, I didn't actually check. >> But, if they don't, that's kind of weird that literally everyone else does get 40% base resistance (Unless they have a Defense primary or secondary, in which case they get 10% or 0%, and additional resistance/defense in a toggle).
EDIT: Checked it out - everyone but Tankers and Masterminds get 10% resistance at minimum (Stalkers, Brutes, Scrappers, VEATs), or 40% (Controllers, Defenders, Corrupters, Blasters, Dominators). HEATs get 15%. Tankers get a toggle with Psi resistance or defense, and Masterminds *only* get Resist (or Defense)-all in their APP toggles (like all of the other squishies do).
...Bad rap for MMs, but then again, they do sort of have ridiculous HP.
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and as for this one
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Heh.
That's all I've got to say to that. Good day.
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Please, go on. I would like to hear your opinions on how the blast sets play out in pvp. I am sure it will be a very stimulating conversation.
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I was mostly trying to avoid the obvious comparison to the WoW forums regarding the "faceroll" comment. Everyone thinks that anything remotely viable in PvP is a "faceroll" class/spec because these same people feel that their unique flower AT/Spec is just too good (and they often wonder why no one else has noticed -- it must be all the faceroll classes!)
For those who are unaware, the term "faceroll" is used extremely literally to describe the player rolling their face on the keyboard and destroying opponents. It's to represent skill-less and easy-to-use play.
The numbers have already pointed out that Psi Blast is between Ice and Fire for damage numbers, but gives up all the hard/soft control of Ice in order to do so (and it's still below Fire). Sonic only looks good on paper because you're taking into account the resistance debuff which, with how how PvP works, you likely won't have it on them for the entire fight. The two control powers being a single-target Stun and a Cone Sleep aren't enough to put the set beyond mediocre. In short, Psi Blast doesn't have to rely on a debuff to do above-average damage, just like Ice or Fire... yet it still falls short of Fire anyway even ignoring that Fire can pump out far superior AoE numbers in addition to its single-target superiority. So does Ice, for that matter, regarding AoE and as pointed out earlier, it does a far better job of controlling the target than Psi.
I play a flying Energy/Energy Blaster in PvP with a heavy lean on ranged damage, so I'm no stranger to blasting.
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Ice blows in pvp now. And faceroll is the proper term for psi's ease of use. It actually even a little easier than i11ish (see:dual phase without no phase) fire em blasters. And as this is a pvp discussion bringing up mezzes is pointless, they are all just as good as the other as far as the hard controls go. Now mixing in kb which psi gets in its primary attack chain plus a mez is where you really pull out in front in pvp.
Like I said before, I am not asking for a nerf. Just pointing out that psi is head and shoulders above the rest atm. And in this day and age of pvp that is probably not the spot you want to be in.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
This reminds me of being 5.
Yes. It is.
No. It isn't.
Yes it is!
No it isn't.
YES...it is.
NO...it isn't.
YES IT IS!
NO IT ISN'T!
YES IT IS!!
NO IT AIN'T!!!
/em sigh
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Numbers are cool and all, but it really is pvp easy mode, and this a thread about pvp. I am not saying omg nerf it. I will say you can face roll with one and do pretty decent though. Yes I have one, yes I play it, yes I will continue to play it.
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Heh.
That's all I've got to say to that. Good day.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage