DPS Fire vs Rad

With IO's how does rad compare to fire, I know fire is better, but how much? Would it rad have enough dps to solo an av?

What about the other sets, anyone have a list of highest dps to lowest of all the blast sets, one based on numbers not opinoons.

Solo'ing AV's is largely dependent upon your secondary.

Powers like lingering rad and benumb make it so you need to produce a mere 25 dps to hurt an AV (more is obviously better). Traps makes it so you need 1 dps heh.

As for ranking, fire does heaps more damage. Last time I looked it does about twice as much damage as sonic (before -res) and sonic is certainly higher than rad blast.

Well after doing some number crunching of my own, with these attack chains:

Fire:
Blaze
Flares
Fire Blast
Repeat

Radiation:
Cosmic burst
Neutrino Bolt
Neutrino Bolt
Repeat

Fire does approximately 2.2x more dps.
But at the same time, this short chain does -50% def and a mag3 stun every round for radiation.
You can also have 3 different damage procs in neutrino as well as -20% res proc IO. If the res IO procs and 1 damage proc procs, fire only does 1.6x more damage, if the res IO procs twice in its 10s duration fire only does 1.4x more damage. With 1 purple damage proc and 2 normal ones there is apporximately a 73.3% chance for one to proc.

Rad has great utility in that it has decent single target and AoE damage. It's not the best in either, but respectable, and the secondary effect is great.

For AoE damage, it is beaten by Fire, AR and Dark, and for single target it is beaten by Fire, Ice, Energy and likely Sonic, but I'll admit I haven't run the numbers for Sonic.

Green lasers from the eyes are pretty damn cool though.

2.2x sounds about right, I knew it had to be over two by a bit

Bare in mind that fire cycles through its attacks faster than rad, so the apoc proc fires a bit more often.

Plus with pvp IO's you can now have a toxic proc in each st ranged attack.

If you have the cash they can both be proc'd quite well. (2 dam procs in the same power can be tough to get high acc, dam, rech values).

Any of the "AV solo'ing " secondaries can fit the achiles -res proc.

Another thing to remember is that achiles -res proc won't stack from the same caster. So if you put it in rad attacks at most it will only ever single stack. There are ways for the same toon to get it to stack though. Psuedo pets (ie sleet, or acid mortar) is technically viewed as a different caster by the game (also why you can stack the effects of sleet, despite all of it saying "does not stack from same caster).

I'll just say it; if AV's are your thing you want fire/traps. It does it fast and easy.
you get:
-highest damage corr blast set, also endurance efficient for the damage it does
-full time mez protection (a lot of AV's can mez)
-just shy of 16% def to get you on your way to ranged softcap (nice!)
-ranged immob (keeps av planted in one spot)
-stackable -res power (easy to have double acid mortar out for -40% res before achilies proc) = highest consistent -res of the secondaries
-AV regen shut down. PGT is twice as powerful as the other regen killing powers.
-Triage becon shines when you are standing in one spot for a long time
-Seeker drones can provide alot of -dam, similar to /cold and /dark. -dam is very effective on AVs.

All that said, traps is generally not a very popular set and it doesn't play nice in teams. So you may want to go fire/rad.

Really, the only thing Rad Blast has against other sets in respects to single target attach chains is that Rad Blast's is far lighter on endurance. Indeed, if necessary, you could simply cut the chain down to just Neutrino Bolt, still put out respectable DPS, and use very little endurance. So little, in fact, that you can run a few toggles and still gain endurance while doing that.

So, as far as soloing AVs goes, it's at least useful in that regard. If you don't have endurance problems, however, then just go for something more powerful.

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Really, the only thing Rad Blast has against other sets in respects to single target attach chains is that Rad Blast's is far lighter on endurance. Indeed, if necessary, you could simply cut the chain down to just Neutrino Bolt, still put out respectable DPS, and use very little endurance. So little, in fact, that you can run a few toggles and still gain endurance while doing that.

So, as far as soloing AVs goes, it's at least useful in that regard. If you don't have endurance problems, however, then just go for something more powerful.

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Using neutrino bolt as your only attack would not be a good plan.

*Plink plink plink*

target feels kinda warm

*plink plink plink*

Target gets sleepy and has a nap while you try to kill them

*200 plinks later*

Woot, 1 kill!

I think our ideas of respectable damage are way off. DPA is more important than DPS to me, and Cosmic burst has a DPA of about 44/sec and NB has 25/sec. Oh and CB has a stun as well to keep you alive.

heck Irradiate has a better DPA than NB and its an AOE attack.

Also, rad blast is ripe for proc slotting as well.

The DPS of using just Neutrino Bolt is surprisingly high.

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DPA is more important than DPS to me

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When soloing AVs (which is kinda what this thread is about), DPA means in and around nothing. DPS and DPE are what you're looking for there.

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DPA is more important than DPS to me

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When soloing AVs (which is kinda what this thread is about), DPA means in and around nothing. DPS and DPE are what you're looking for there.

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Not really, activation time is the limiter in what you can chain together not recharge. Can you NB an AV to death? If so a screencap or two would make me change my POV.

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DPA is more important than DPS to me

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When soloing AVs (which is kinda what this thread is about), DPA means in and around nothing. DPS and DPE are what you're looking for there.

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Not really, activation time is the limiter in what you can chain together not recharge. Can you NB an AV to death? If so a screencap or two would make me change my POV.

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The last time I did such a thing was when I soloed Babbage in I6. With the appropriate regen debuffs, though, you definitely can. Neutrino Bolt definitely puts out more than 25 DPS, even on a defender, and even without procs.

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Using neutrino bolt as your only attack would not be a good plan.

*Plink plink plink*

target feels kinda warm

*plink plink plink*

Target gets sleepy and has a nap while you try to kill them

*200 plinks later*

Woot, 1 kill!


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"Plink" ... hilarious!

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DPA is more important than DPS to me

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When soloing AVs (which is kinda what this thread is about), DPA means in and around nothing. DPS and DPE are what you're looking for there.

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Can you please elaborate further on this comment.

I was under the impression that I want to use my highest damage per activation attacks as often as possible to achieve the highest damage per second assuming I can maintain the endurance to use the attacks . Thus, damage per activation is very important.

Does Rain of Fire warrant addition to this calculation?

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DPA is more important than DPS to me

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When soloing AVs (which is kinda what this thread is about), DPA means in and around nothing. DPS and DPE are what you're looking for there.

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Can you please elaborate further on this comment.

I was under the impression that I want to use my highest damage per activation attacks as often as possible to achieve the highest damage per second assuming I can maintain the endurance to use the attacks . Thus, damage per activation is very important.

Does Rain of Fire warrant addition to this calculation?

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Going strictly by DPA and ignoring Scourge entirely, the order from best to worst in Fire Blast (using average number of ticks for DoT and a 95% chance per tick in RoF) is:
Inferno (DS 2.38/sec)
Blaze (DS 2.1/sec)
Rain of Fire (DS 1.27/sec)
Fire Ball (DS 0.95/sec)
Fire Blast (DS 0.86/sec)
Flares (DS 0.85/sec)
Blazing Bolt (DS 0.63/sec)
Fire Breath (DS 0.61/sec)

So yes, if you can keep things in it for the full duration, it definately warrants consideration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

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DPA is more important than DPS to me

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When soloing AVs (which is kinda what this thread is about), DPA means in and around nothing. DPS and DPE are what you're looking for there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you please elaborate further on this comment.

I was under the impression that I want to use my highest damage per activation attacks as often as possible to achieve the highest damage per second assuming I can maintain the endurance to use the attacks . Thus, damage per activation is very important.

Does Rain of Fire warrant addition to this calculation?

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It takes a while to solo AVs. Burst damage doesn't do anything much. Dishing out as much damage as you can in the first 10 seconds doesn't matter when you're going to be going at it for at least a few minutes. What it will do is run you out of endurance.

DPA falls to the wayside while DPS and DPE take on more important roles since you're going to have to find an attack chain that you can repeat ad infinitum.

Take Rad blast as an example. Pretty much all of Rad Blast's single-target attacks have absolutely horrible DPA, among the worst in the game. It still puts out decent DPS despite this. The percent difference in the amount of damage dealt by Fire and Rad blast will slowly reduce to a certain limit as time approaches infinity despite the difference in the first volley of attacks being so very pronounced. This is because, as the period of time increases, the difference in DPAs matters less and less.

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When soloing AVs (which is kinda what this thread is about), DPA means in and around nothing. DPS and DPE are what you're looking for there.

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This is either wrong, or misworded.

When designing an attack chain to use for AV soloing, the only stat you're looking at is DPA. Endurance use is of course important, but it's not a big showstopper as all single target blasts across the sets have a proportionate DPE

As for the Rain of Fire comment, its DPA isn't high enough to warrant its use in a single target attack (not to mention the disproportionate end usage). Caltrops on the other hand has higher DPA than Blaze, therefore has its use warranted in my chains

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When designing an attack chain to use for AV soloing, the only stat you're looking at is DPA. Endurance use is of course important, but it's not a big showstopper as all single target blasts across the sets have a proportionate DPE

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They all have similar DPE, but the EPS is very different. Think about it, if all blasts have a DPE of ~8, but one has double the DPA, that means it will burn up endurance twice as fast.

I agree that high DPA attacks is important, but so is endurance management (end redux, +recov, +max end, etc). If your chain uses up too much endurance, your damage output will then become constrained by your recovery. Good chains for downing AVs will have both high DPS/DPA and end management.

Endurance Management is part of the desgin of the character as a whole though, not just exclusive to blasting so the two terms are different, to me at least.

When talking Endurance Management you have to take into consideration both your blasts AND your debuffs/toggles. And that's something I usually take care of before desgining the attack chain. Once that's out of the way and I start working on the attacks, DPA is the only stat I look at

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DPA is more important than DPS to me

[/ QUOTE ]

When soloing AVs (which is kinda what this thread is about), DPA means in and around nothing. DPS and DPE are what you're looking for there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you please elaborate further on this comment.

I was under the impression that I want to use my highest damage per activation attacks as often as possible to achieve the highest damage per second assuming I can maintain the endurance to use the attacks . Thus, damage per activation is very important.

Does Rain of Fire warrant addition to this calculation?

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It takes a while to solo AVs. Burst damage doesn't do anything much. Dishing out as much damage as you can in the first 10 seconds doesn't matter when you're going to be going at it for at least a few minutes. What it will do is run you out of endurance.

DPA falls to the wayside while DPS and DPE take on more important roles since you're going to have to find an attack chain that you can repeat ad infinitum.

Take Rad blast as an example. Pretty much all of Rad Blast's single-target attacks have absolutely horrible DPA, among the worst in the game. It still puts out decent DPS despite this. The percent difference in the amount of damage dealt by Fire and Rad blast will slowly reduce to a certain limit as time approaches infinity despite the difference in the first volley of attacks being so very pronounced. This is because, as the period of time increases, the difference in DPAs matters less and less.

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So your point is one shouldn't consider Inferno and Atomic Blast? I don't understand how what you are saying is relevant.

What I see is Fire has many attacks with fantastic DPA that exceed the DPA of Radiation. Then I see, over a vastly long time frame, that Fire's DPS significantly exceeds Radiation's DPS. Can you please provide some examples to illustrate how what you are saying is relevant to the discussion?

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This is either wrong, or misworded.

When designing an attack chain to use for AV soloing, the only stat you're looking at is DPA. Endurance use is of course important, but it's not a big showstopper as all single target blasts across the sets have a proportionate DPE

As for the Rain of Fire comment, its DPA isn't high enough to warrant its use in a single target attack (not to mention the disproportionate end usage). Caltrops on the other hand has higher DPA than Blaze, therefore has its use warranted in my chains

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The DPA for Rain of Fire is higher than Fireball or Fire Blast. See chart above, for which I used a 95% tick hit rate on RoF and converted the DS to Corruptor scale (ie, divided the final by 0.75). Do you skip Fire Blast in your single target chain for AVs?

Now if you said something about the 60 second recharge or the stupidly high endurance consumption of using it in your attack chain against a single target, that's one thing. But the DPA on the attack is not why you wouldn't use it.

Edit: for giggles, Blizzard is stupid DPA; the old Energy Transfer was, correcting for server ticks, 3.838 DS/sec. Blizzard is 3.814 using the pet scale - on Corruptors (to compare to their other attacks) that'd be scale 5.09/sec.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

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It takes a while to solo AVs. Burst damage doesn't do anything much. Dishing out as much damage as you can in the first 10 seconds doesn't matter when you're going to be going at it for at least a few minutes. What it will do is run you out of endurance.

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DPA = damage per activation second (ie, damage dealt / animation time, usually converted for server ticks).

When building a DPS chain, DPA is very important. Essentially you take your highest DPA attacks and try to chain them seamlessly.

I think you're using DPA as a different abbreviation than everyone else in the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

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Now if you said something about the 60 second recharge or the stupidly high endurance consumption

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(not to mention the disproportionate end usage).

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Hmm, Smurphy and Silverado agree with me that DPA is important in AV killings.

Considering I've seen a list of the AVs silverado has soloed, and screen caps (or was that turboski, it was some hardcore cold dom corr player), and I've watched a demo/vid of Smurphy doing a strike force in insane time. Im gonna go with the opinion of these two.

The other thing is spamming 1 attack would probably drive me insane

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Hmm, Smurphy and Silverado agree with me that DPA is important in AV killings.

Considering I've seen a list of the AVs silverado has soloed, and screen caps (or was that turboski, it was some hardcore cold dom corr player), and I've watched a demo/vid of Smurphy doing a strike force in insane time. Im gonna go with the opinion of these two.

The other thing is spamming 1 attack would probably drive me insane

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It was Silverado.

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Hmm, Smurphy and Silverado agree with me that DPA is important in AV killings.

Considering I've seen a list of the AVs silverado has soloed, and screen caps (or was that turboski, it was some hardcore cold dom corr player), and I've watched a demo/vid of Smurphy doing a strike force in insane time. Im gonna go with the opinion of these two.

The other thing is spamming 1 attack would probably drive me insane

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It was Silverado.

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Cheers Turbo Ski. All I remember was it was in a discussion between you two on the relative merits/strengths of various Cold Dom AV killing strats. It was a great read if I remember