BS vs Katana
Secondaries aside, BS and Kat do look very similar on paper. I think what it comes down to is how much you plan on investing in the build.
If I remember correctly, the DPS leader is dependant on recharge. On low levels of recharge, Katana is better, in very high amounts of recharge BS pulls ahead and in extreme amounts of recharge Katana pulls back ahead. (I don't remember the math, I know the first two are correct, I don't remember the third very well).
When you analyze secondaries for Kat/BS you have to take into account the primary as well. Swords benefit other secondaries much more than SR except in the early game. With WP vs. Regen, I feel that having katana/bs as your primary makes willpower better for the fact that you can softcap melee/lethal/fire/cold/energy/neg and still have alot of +hp and +regen.
With SD, you can't take katana, but for BS it would make the build a little easier in the sense that you don't have to slot for too much melee defense and rely on Parry instead. (although it will still be quite the expensive build). Don't forget about the +damage and shield charge you get from here, it could lead for some pretty nasty AoE, disembowel and Headsplitter damage.
The "clickiness" of Regen, Dark Armor, or Fire Armor can be a little annoying for people who use weapons since you have to redraw your weapon every time you use a non-primary power, keep that in mind.
Other than that your observations are pretty on track.
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
In the original days, Katana and Broadsword actually had attacks named the exact same thing, with the same animations, only faster/weaker on the Katana. These days, Katana looks a lot more flashy, while Broadsword is more of a brute force type attack.
As to powersets, a few things to keep in mind if it matters to you:
1. Using skills from your secondary will force a weapon redraw. This means that powers like SR and WP will rarely have to redraw their weapons. Something like regen will have to more often to use their click abilities. It isn't a huge deal, but it annoys some (I'm one of the some).
2. If you are new to scrappers, WP is a fun one to start with. It is essentially a fire and forget set. Almost everything is an auto power or toggle power. It doesn't resist as much as invul; it doesn't dodge as much as SR, and it doesn't regen as much as regen, but when you combine them all, it does a fine job. It is a great set for natural origins (If you have a theme).
I didn't answer all of your questions, but those are my views on a couple of them!
Katana is prettier. =^-^=
/Invul is very, very sweet with both. Not much to click, very reliable, easy to manage and make good use of.
/invul + parry/divine avalanche = tank on a budget.
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Katana is prettier. =^-^=
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Katana for the dainty!
So basically Katana will not put up the numbers that BS will correct?
A day without sunshine is like...you know...night time.
Katana will put up less numbers in one shot than BS but is faster so you put up more smaller numbers where they become more a playstyle prefernce.
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SD - hard at lower levels and you need a ton of inf for it to be any good
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False. Paired with BS, SD is awesome from level 8 on.
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WP - good at start and allthe way through. Falls behind regen but is not as involved
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Mostly true. Doesn't have the peaks and valleys that Regen does. Again though paired with BS or Katana, it's pretty dern awesome.
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Regen - Good all the way through but very involved and "clicky"
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If your reflexes and ping are good, you can take on almost anything.
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SR - hard at first, but outshines the rest in the higher levels
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Don't agree with outshining. It's very good though.
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Dark Armor - Hard to get used to, hard at first, good at later levels, very involved and "clicky"
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Not that clicky. Near invincible if well built.
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Am I on track or off base with these?
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A little of both.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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1. Using skills from your secondary will force a weapon redraw. This means that powers like SR and WP will rarely have to redraw their weapons. Something like regen will have to more often to use their click abilities. It isn't a huge deal, but it annoys some (I'm one of the some).
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I'm "one of the some", too -- currently having fun with my newish kat/SR scrapper at level 43!
Well, okay, I have fun for a minute and 50 seconds or so, then I grit my teeth while perma-Practiced Brawler goes off, THEN while the sword redraws, and then I go have fun for another minute and 50 seconds or so....
While it's not as often as it could be with regen, it still seems fairly often to me...your mileage may vary, and it's all about perceptions anyhow. And don't get me wrong -- I'm still having a blast, but I think I'd be having a slightly better time without the redraw action. *shrug*
"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
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SD - hard at lower levels and you need a ton of inf for it to be any good
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There's a big danger here of overinterpreting things that myself and other powergamers might say. Yes, it takes a lot of influence for it to be absolutely top tier, but it is VERY good out of the box and from a low level. My Broad Sword/Shield Defense scrapper has been extremely solid for leveling using a combination of SOs and then attack frankenslotting in the 30s. One of my favorite scrappers while leveling up, for certain. Possibly my favorite.
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WP - good at start and allthe way through. Falls behind regen but is not as involved
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I think Willpower is just as good as Regen, even at the top end. Katana/Willpower is my default recommendation for a new scrapper, though all scrapper combinations are good.
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SR - hard at first, but outshines the rest in the higher levels
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Well... not necessarily on either count. Parry will fill in your low level defense, so it won't be that hard at first. And it'll be hard to outshine the other secondaries at high level because Parry fills in their defense as well. One nice thing that Super Reflexes does is that at a high level, you won't need Parry anymore, and the extra recharge from Quickness will help you put out a high DPS chain. So I'd say that Katana/Super Reflexes and Broad Sword/Shield Defense (Against All Odds) are probably the best DPS, though I don't know which would be better.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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If I remember correctly, the DPS leader is dependant on recharge. On low levels of recharge, Katana is better, in very high amounts of recharge BS pulls ahead and in extreme amounts of recharge Katana pulls back ahead. (I don't remember the math, I know the first two are correct, I don't remember the third very well).
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If you're certain about the first two, I'm certain about the third, so that's where it stands.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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If I remember correctly, the DPS leader is dependant on recharge. On low levels of recharge, Katana is better, in very high amounts of recharge BS pulls ahead and in extreme amounts of recharge Katana pulls back ahead. (I don't remember the math, I know the first two are correct, I don't remember the third very well).
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If you're certain about the first two, I'm certain about the third, so that's where it stands.
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Out of curiosity, could anybody take a stab (or a hack or a slash ) at perhaps quantifying "high" versus "extreme" amounts of recharge? I'm currently waffling between the two primaries and WP as a secondary, and I'm not sure how much recharge I could cram into WP to achieve "extreme." Thanks!
"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
Well I have a lvl 50 katana/SR and a lvl 50 Katana/FA.
I have tried BS/reg and BS/FA,
The dagage I push out with BS can be overcome with the speed that my Katana dishes out.
But for right in your face burst damage, I think BS wins, But the attacks are too slow (playstyle preference).
While the speed my Katana has lets me throw my T9 (Golden Dragonfly)and T8 (Soaring Dragon) back to back, over and over! So that actually IMO pushes my DPS a bit farther, then again thats my playstyle!
I'm sure others will not agree with me, and thats fine, I just know what works for me =D
If you want peace, you prepare for war!
-Vegetius
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While the speed my Katana has lets me throw my T9 (Golden Dragonfly)and T8 (Soaring Dragon) back to back, over and over! So that actually IMO pushes my DPS a bit farther, then again thats my playstyle!
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It seems to me that Super Reflexes has seven defense secondaries where people could put LotG +7.5's...and it has Quickness...toss in Hasten or a couple of purple sets and that's probably well into "extreme recharge" without even trying!
Willpower's got two secondaries like that...I'm wondering how much work it'll be to get to "high," and if "extreme" is even feasible.
But as you said, your build's working for you and that's what counts!
"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
Seven LotG +7.5s is a waste of a LOT of Inf. Only 5 will work, the other 2 will be eaten by the Rule of Five.
@Roderick
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Out of curiosity, could anybody take a stab (or a hack or a slash ) at perhaps quantifying "high" versus "extreme" amounts of recharge? I'm currently waffling between the two primaries and WP as a secondary, and I'm not sure how much recharge I could cram into WP to achieve "extreme." Thanks!
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Honestly, the amount of recharge you're going to need is heavily dependent on one thing: how much DA/Parry you want. In general, a */wp build is going to want to dance around with at least 2, if not 3, which has a substantial effect upon your attack string.
Assuming a couple DA/Parry stacks are "required" to be up at all times (there will be a period wherein their stacked unless you're really good a micro managing the string), Parry>Disembowel>Headsplitter is probably about as you can expect but that's pretty much the providence of BS/SR because of the recharge requirement (Headsplitter requires 291% recharge to be seamless). Interestingly, this is also the optimized string for non-Parry attack strings because Parry and Hack as completely interchangeable, with the exception that Hack recharges significantly slower, which is ignorable at this point (it only requires 78% to be used in this chain). Both of these strings are actually still the most effective available from ~250% +recharge above however. You just have to deal with the small gap before Headsplitter each time (small being only a fraction of a second)
Katana is slightly easier on the requirements because DA>SD>GD only requires 279% in Golden Dragonfly. Forgoing DA, you're going to need to operate with GC>SD>GC>GD (only requires 250% recharge in GD) because GC>SD>GD requires 379% recharge in GD, which is going to require some substantial outside buffs to manage.
The interesting thing about both of these attack string designs is that they're largely modular. BS can switch out a Hack for a Parry on the fly without messing with any tweaks to the attack string and having a minimal effect on DPS. Katana has a bit of a harder time, but it's equally possible to simply alternate between the two attack strings (re: DA>SD>GD>GC>SD>GC>GD) while having a minimal effect as long as you've got the recharge to manage the more intensive of the two (re: the first).
As to DPS and DA/Parry contribution, numbers incoming...
Katana:
DA>SD>GD - 66.68 DPS (345.7 damage in 5.184 secs); 193% DA uptime
GC>SD>GC>GD - 74.55 DPS (403.5 damage in 5.412 secs); 0% DA uptime
DA>SD>GD>GC>SD>GC>GD - 70.7 DPS (749.2 damage in 10.596 secs); 94% DA uptime
Broadsword:
Parry>Dis>HS - 62.55 DPS (379.8 damage in 6.072 secs); 164% Parry uptime
Hack>Dis>HS - 71.62 DPS (434.9 damage in 6.072 secs); 0% Parry uptime
What these numbers don't account for, and serve to make Katana even better, is proc contribution, which favors the greater number of attacks within a similar time frame that Katana has, further increasing it's already impressive lead.
Personally, I've always found that Katana has a tendency to perform universally better when you actually put it into practice and start slotting it up. They perform roughly equally excluding anything above SOs, but, when you get involved with IOs, Katana wins out pretty quickly simply because it has fewer requirements, easier slotting, and better proc functionality to go with its naturally better numbers.
Plus, Katana is prettier.
Thanks Um, I may know the numbers in my head but explaining them is a different story :-)
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
I've been steadily updating my DPA spreadsheet w/more data. Here are the damage stats on the two sets w/o accounting for crits:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
BS Dam Act Rech End DPE DPA
Hack 102.6 1.33 8 8.528 12.03 64.77
Slash 62.56 1.33 4 5.2 12.03 39.49
Slice 76.95 2 8 8.528 9.02 34.29
Parry 52.55 1.33 3 4.368 12.03 33.18
WS 81.34 2.67 14 13 6.26 28.01
Disembl 122.62 1.8 10 10.192 12.03 61.93
Headsp 162.66 2.33 14 13.52 12.03 64.86
Katana Dam Act Rech End DPE DPA
SotW 72.57 1.17 5 6.032 12.03 54.98
GC 52.56 0.67 3 4.368 12.03 56.88
FS 61.94 1.17 6 6.032 10.27 46.92
DA 52.55 1.33 3 4.368 12.03 33.18
Lotus 85.09 1.83 14 13 6.55 42.97
SD 112.61 1.33 9 9.36 12.03 71.09
GD 142.64 1.83 12 11.856 12.03 72.04
</pre><hr />
All calcs are using Arcanatime, using lvl 50 base damage. You can see Kat's 2 big hitters have better DPA than BS's 2, but Hack is better than GC (in fact Hack-HS-Hack-HS is your ideal chain). Of course GC's very low activation time means its weight is greatly lessened which leads to a higher overall DPS for the Kat chain. Parry & DA are identical, so their effect in lowering their respective chains are also more or less identical--just depends on how much you want it to be up/stacked. And as mentioned, GC's faster recharge means a greater chance for the Achilles proc to be in effect which gives Kat even more of an edge.
Kat also has by far the better AoE attacks, and they recharge faster. This is something the devs really need to look at fixing for BS--FS & Lotus do more damage, activate faster and for less or equal end. Lotus Drops is one of the best scrapper attacks, period.
One thing that's interesting is that the DPE calculation is about idential bet. Kat & BS which belies the myth that BS is end-intensive. Still, it's Kat all the way for me. Well, except for the silly left handed usage.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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(in fact Hack-HS-Hack-HS is your ideal chain)
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Do you mean Hack>Dis>Hack>HS, because the minimum recharge on Headsplitter is 2.8 seconds and the animation time of Hack is 1.584 seconds.
The problem with the Hack>Dis>Hack>HS chain is that it's even more recharge intensive than Hack>Dis>HS, requiring 305% +recharge in Hack in order to be seamless.
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(in fact Hack-HS-Hack-HS is your ideal chain)
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Do you mean Hack>Dis>Hack>HS, because the minimum recharge on Headsplitter is 2.8 seconds and the animation time of Hack is 1.584 seconds.
The problem with the Hack>Dis>Hack>HS chain is that it's even more recharge intensive than Hack>Dis>HS, requiring 305% +recharge in Hack in order to be seamless.
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Yeah, but it does pretty well even when it isn't seamless, and you can take better advantage of procs in Hack. I suspect that which is better depends on IO slotting, which depends on the rest of your build, but I haven't looked at it closely.
(edit: Hmmm, I used the two Hack chain in my DPS comparison build (comparison not yet complete). I wonder why I don't have the other one for comparison purposes? I'll have to fix that.)
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Nah, I was mostly kidding about that chain since you can't get nearly enough recharge for it. Just a riff on the HS-HS-HS mythical attack chain.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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It seems to me that Super Reflexes has seven defense secondaries where people could put LotG +7.5's...and it has Quickness...toss in Hasten or a couple of purple sets and that's probably well into "extreme recharge" without even trying!
Willpower's got two secondaries like that...I'm wondering how much work it'll be to get to "high," and if "extreme" is even feasible.
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Seven LotG +7.5s is a waste of a LOT of Inf. Only 5 will work, the other 2 will be eaten by the Rule of Five.
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Excellent point -- and I knew that, too. What I meant to say (and failed miserably with) was that it SEEMS like it'd be a lot easier to fit up to five LotG's into an SR build than it would for WP -- unless I'm missing something else?
"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
If you include Combat Jumping and Weave you'll end up with 4 LotG's on a WP. And if you find room for Maneuvers as well (which is doable) you'll have your 5 LotG's.
Not to mention day job recharge bonuses. Not too familiar with blue side, but I know red side has the Predator and Time Lord.
50 SM/WP Brute - D Block
50 FM/ELA Brute - Raging Daemon
50 Acher/MM Blaster - Dark Reiver
50 FM/SD - Firestorm Brigade
You were right to fear me...
Forgive me if this has been asked before, but what exactly is the difference between them besides the look of the weapon. They both seem to have the same attacks, is one faster than the other while the other does more damage?
Also what is the best secondary to have with either of these. I have heard the following:
SD - hard at lower levels and you need a ton of inf for it to be any good
WP - good at start and allthe way through. Falls behind regen but is not as involved
Regen - Good all the way through but very involved and "clicky"
SR - hard at first, but outshines the rest in the higher levels
Dark Armor - Hard to get used to, hard at first, good at later levels, very involved and "clicky"
Am I on track or off base with these?
A day without sunshine is like...you know...night time.