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They're called Break Free's for a reason, use them.
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They should totally program the NPCs to think stunned and sleeping players are less worthy targets.
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They do. I can count numerous times where as a blaster/ defender that I have been slept and stood there waiting for an aoe to damage me so I could wake up. Not a problem anymore for a blaster but being the only defender on a team, it is an issue, unless you use a breakfree or don't have 3 of the same inspires to create 1.
Do non-melee toons need another pool power granting some mez resist? NO! Strategize, get a team or fight something else. Those 3 options are open to you. If you decide to keep fighting on difficulty lvl 3-5 and get defeated consistently, lower your difficulty.
If you are trying to solo as a defender, have you taken advantage of the dual build feature? You can drop some powers that help less for solo play to get numerous pool powers that may help:
numerous +defense powers
Tough
Acrobatics (KB protect & Hold)
Aid Self (stun resist)
Fear (2 powers from the presence pool).
All without dipping into IO sets.
Um, Jakke... that was sarcasm. 
.
.Driver Sweeper * CohHelper * HijackThis * TweakCoH * CPU-ID
* Defraggler * Program Security Scan * PC Performance Scan *
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On teams, if you are getting frequently mezzed and there is a tank, a controller, or a defender on the team with you...either your team sucks, or you do.
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this. and how hard is it to ask your team for a break free or 2 or 3? you can still type while mezzed unless you are rp'ing that you can't do anything which is going to get you killed. seriously. got 3 purple insps of the same size? change em into a breakfree before you start combat. same for any 3 insps of the same size. of course you could just eat the purples and avoid getting hit at all. and where do you come up with 48 insps? the max you can carry is 20.
I agree with a previous poster, the idea is to have fun.
Sure Defenders can gulp break frees like drugs, and then convert sets of 3 inspirations to make more breakfrees, but is that really necessary? It is now, because how the devs set it up, but truly, is this needed? I find it to be more annoying than anything else.
I see some players telling those who play Defenders "learn to play the game", "be more attentive", "depend more on your team mates", "ask your team mates for inspirations", etc. That is all well and dandy, but not always a possible thing, or even reasonable.
Let me illustrate some serious, thankfully not often, situations: I call these incidentally Dev game exploits:
1. Zone into mission, mobs right at the door, before you can even get a screen to see what is going on, you are already slept, held, and bombarded. You finally get an image of yourself entering, you are getting pounded, you try to punch a break free, followed by a heal, and what not, but you are dead before you can get the break free off. Oh yeah Mr. Scraper, guess I should as a habit take a break free before zoning into a mission as a very astute practice?
Exit an elevator, same as zone into mission, mobs ready to hit the helpless Defender, death before a break free can occur. Do note that despite taking all those pools so often thrown at my face, not one prevents sleep, they at best reduce the length of sleep. What is the problem? Many mobs initiate attack with dual effect mez attacks, often is a sleep followed by hold. What this means is that the sleep detoggle you, and then the other mez effect which you would have protection otherwise is not there. Final effect, Defender is helplessly murdered.
Ambushes, they are commonly from the back, often spawning in place, not comming from a distance. Defender is at back, trying to stay from AOEs that have status effects and damage; next thing they know they are in the middle of an ambush, before inspirations can be taken, they are slept, stunned, and murdered.
Lots of us can say, learn to play, while there may be some truth to it, the game is also set up that regardless of how good you are, game exploits will cook your goose. Of course melee types have nothing to worry about this, since they have such good defenses versus status attacks and their exploits. But non-melee have to endure these conditions and have no practical recourse. So why not let the Defenders have some status effect protection, and I said some, they don't have to be tankers or scraper grade tough; but some. A MAG-4 may stop the first attack of a boss stun, but if a boss and LT targets the same Defender; its curtains for them, right there and then. No need to say if Defenders can take some abuse, the status effect powers in the game are now useless. By giving the Defender some resistance, the binary effect of the mez is not so absolute. I suggest Melee types should think of it like this, if the Defender can shake some stun attacks, it means they are supporting "you" better and longer. A mezzed or dead Defender is of little good to you, right?
I have found puzzling that tankers which are supposed to be supported, can self rez. While the supported can rez someone else, but not themselves. Odd ah? Should it not be that tankers and scrapers should not be able to self rez, and thus depend on a Defender to rez them? and thus the Defender should be able to both be able to self rez and rez others? Odd ah?
I would querstion the balance here, if melee are supposed to be supported and others are support, should not the powers be balanced in such way?
Hugs
Stormy
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Let me illustrate some serious, thankfully not often, situations:
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Emphasis mine.
If you are solo, you should not have spawns with mezzing capability sitting that close to an entrance all that often, if ever.
If you are on a team, chances are someone on the team can handle mezzes better than you can. Wouldn't it make sense to have them go through first? Last I checked, Defenders weren't the best choice of AT to go through a door first.
If you lead with your face, you will probably plant it.
Every single defender blast set has SOME kind of status effect in it. This is by design. It gives defenders the ability to pre-emptively prevent status effects by applying them first. They are not as good at it as controllers, but it IS there. Only Energy Blast lacks a hard control power, it makes up for it by having a soft control power in nearly all of it's attacks. The status effect here would be: On their butt.
And not all Defenders and Controllers are completely vulnerable to mezzes. Force Field and Sonic Resonance both have a bubble that grants mez protection of the 3 most common types, Sleep, Hold, and Disorient. Take Acrobatics and you have mag FIVE hold protection, not to mention KB protection.
The balance is just fine. 3 tanker sets and 4 scrapper sets have a self-rez, which (surprise, surprise!) most people skip entirely. You make it sound like self rez is a defining trait of tanks, it's not. NOT DYING is the defining trait of tanks. You're using outliers to make your argument.
Your definition of "support" is a little off too. All ATs support each other.
I'll use your example of a tank, since you seem to be fond of that one.
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A mezzed or dead Defender is of little good to you, right?
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That is very true. Therefore, it is in the tank's best interest to keep agro off of the defender. If the defender/controller isn't being targeted by mezzers, what does he have to worry about?
In the case of blaster/defender pairings. The defender probably has some way of keeping the blaster free of status effects. In return the blaster's job is to defeat their foes before they are a threat to the defender.
Also, the game is balanced around teaming, not soloing. It assumes you have enough variety on your team to handle the majority of situations, including mezzing enemies.
The game, by design, does not allow anyone to be completely impervious to harm. Every AT has a weakness that the game can and WILL exploit. I personally believe that Malta and KoA were designed specifically to give high level melee characters headaches. They drain your endurance while out of range of your attacks, stack enough mezzes to break through mez protection, sometimes simultaneously. And in the case of KoA, throw so many caltrops that you are reduced to a snail's pace while being whittled down from range. That sounds like an enemy group designed to be difficult to melee characters. A defender on the other hand, believe it or not, is not as threatened by these groups. Every defender has some ability to handle a Sapper before they get drained. Defenders have ranged attacks, so the massive amounts of caltrops aren't as bad for them. The majority of mezzers in those two groups are LTs or minions, leaving them vulnerable to the defender or controllers own status effects.
The situation you describe where there is nothing at all you can do? That happens to everyone at some time or another. It is not a defender only issue. Sometimes things just don't go your way.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Claw:
You have some very good points, but...
You must agree that Defenders now how to observe a lot of little specials "must do's" ( I can not enter the mission until somebody else does, I must wait to enter the elevator until somebody else does, I must stock and pay for much more break frees than someoen else, etc) that other classes does not. I believe this actually robs the "fun" part of the class.
Defenders do have some weak status control effects, and reasonable debuffs. Unfortunately the status effects are pointless in a surprise situation for they are mag weak, and short of a critical will never affect a LT or Boss in the same round, while the minion's mess level will automatically stick.
Your point of a tanker ensuring to keep aggroe is a great observation, but one it makes the Defender absolutely dependent on the tanker's taunt (if the player even bothered to get taunt), and the taunt has only limited range and how many it can captivate as well. In the case of ambushes coming from behind, even if the tank has taunt and really, really, really wants to keep his healer alive; he just can't for the ambush is dev coded to come from the rear and at times spawn right at were the defenders would be standing at.
You also make an interesting point, classes are balanced from a team perspective, and not from a solo perspective. I have two observations from you:
1) Why not balance to allow "all" clases to be reasonable solo capable as well?
2) How come melee classes, are quite solo capable, should they have not been given weaknesses as devastating as the non melee were given? As well so they could not solo any better than the other classes?
Consider this, before I3 and the introduction of spam mes, all classes were quite capable of soloing with comfort. Agreed, some still could solo better than others, but the difference was not as pointed.
Sue
Allow me to spell this out in a different way... 
In WoW I played a Priestess, I relied upon my Warrior, Druid (in Bear form) and Paladin to keep agroo off of me. I accepted this, because it is part of the fantasy Genre. 
The Holy Trinity (Tank, DPS and Healer) is common place in the fantasy Genre.
Now look at Heros...
Does Batman need a Tanker? What about Wonder Woman?
Does Superman need a Healer?
What is the one thing that stands out about every Hero and Heroine? 
They are self sufficient, ever notice with with the exception of Robin, most of the Super Friends work independently? 
Show me one Hero that is forced to depend on another (except Robin, Batgirl and maybe Girl Wonder) to protect them and keep them safe?
A Hero/Heroine who is dependent upon another for protection is offend referred to by another name in the gaming world.. Luggage. 
Right now in CoX, Emp Defenders are effectively Luggage since they cannot hold their own. If someone with a Bazillion inf mentions how their tricked out defender can survive, well good for you. That and $4.50 will get you a latte at Starbucks, just go away. 
The issue is once again Fun, something that Jack Emmeret had no clue about. He stuck with the Holy Trinity rather than make each AT independent. Something I hope DC Heroes and Champions have noted and will not fall into the same trap.
The original concept of "Since they can heal they should not be powerful" is outdated and wrong. By making a AT that is effectively worthless in the world without group support they have forced those people who enjoy healing and helping people into a weak blaster with healing.
Worse, they have given no real reason to take a Defender since a Controller offers 1000% better bang for you buck, they have all the powers that a Defender has and they have the power of Containment. There is no real reason to choose a Defender over anything, and once Corruptors are widespread Heroside, then the reason is further diminished.
It looks like the Defender is falling into the same trap that the Priest did in WoW, "if you can get nothing else more effective, you can always take a Defender, but only as a last resort".
The idea of dependent AT is so totally against the Hero/Heroine genre that it is ludicrous that the Devs even considered it, let alone implemented it.
At this point the only way to fix it is to give Defenders some Status protection (esp since Status attacks seem to be the way of the future at high levels) and the best way to do that is to allow Defenders to target themselves. 
Again I ask, show me three "MAJOR" Super Heroes/Heroines who cannot use their power on themselves. This in itself shows just how out of the genre the "support" AT's are.
If they want the game to depend upon the Holy Trinity then remove all healing from Tanks and DPS; remove all damage from Healers and Controllers and force each AT to depend upon each other to survive. If one AT cannot survive alone then all AT's should be forced to group to survive. This is something I hope will not happen but it is in line with the thinking of the original Devs and the ongoing thoughts of the present Devs.
thats funny, because i know several people who have emp defenders and solo just fine. would you like to know why? because they have a strategy to soloing. something which you seem to lack. read the booklet that comes with the game and it tells you that some at's power sets were designed for teaming. that should have been your first clue. you can also go to the defenders section on these forums and learn about what works for soloing and what doesn't.
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Again I ask, show me three "MAJOR" Super Heroes/Heroines who cannot use their power on themselves. This in itself shows just how out of the genre the "support" AT's are.
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The problem that you're not even close to dealing with is that this is a game, not a comic book. In a comic book, the story is the primary motivator for how powers work. In a (good) game, balance is the primary motivator for how powers work. If it didn't work like this, then every Tanker with super strength would be dealing more damage than Blasters or Scrappers because, where comic books are concerned, there isn't a difference between a Scrapper and a Tanker: they're both hard to kill and good at beating stuff with the exception that, 99% of the time, the Tanker is better at beating stuff and taking hits than the Scrapper is (ex: Batman compared to Superman). Trying to make game balance decisions based off of how comic books operate is simply aiming to fail. Games are not comic books, and comic books are not games. Keep the design logic separate.
By the way, the entire point of the thread and everything that people have been asking for is for a power pool to be made, not for Defenders to get mez protection (which we've already pointed out, some already do, but you've ignored those). Creating a power pool specifically for mez protection wouldn't do anything special for Defenders, because everyone else would get access to it just as well.
As to allowing support toons to specifically target themselves with single target powers, I highly doubt that would happen without some substantial reduction in their effectiveness. One of the primary balancing factors of the single target buffs (re: why they're so friggin' strong) is that they can't be used on the user. They require sharing to be effective. If they didn't, I assure you that they'd be have their actual contributions slashed pretty significantly to account for Defenders suddenly getting the ability to buff themselves so that a basic FF Defender is significantly harder to hit than an */SR Scrapper while simultaneously contributing the same level of survivability to his/her entire team and costing less end/sec. There are balance reasons that Defenders can't target themselves. It's the way it is for good reason.
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The Holy Trinity (Tank, DPS and Healer) is common place in the fantasy Genre.
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No, it's really not. It's common place in fantasy MMOs and games. You're taking your experience with an MMO, and applying it to the genre. Take the genre, and apply it to the MMO, and you'll find it equally short-falling.
The Holy Trinity is much more a product of it being a Game, and less of it being a Fantasy Game. Still, even with all that said, most characters in this game can solo. Sure, some can solo faster than others, but that's always going to be the case.
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Now look at Heros...
Does Batman need a Tanker? What about Wonder Woman?
Does Superman need a Healer?
What is the one thing that stands out about every Hero and Heroine?
They are self sufficient, ever notice with with the exception of Robin, most of the Super Friends work independently?
Show me one Hero that is forced to depend on another (except Robin, Batgirl and maybe Girl Wonder) to protect them and keep them safe?
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Okay, now take this, and apply it to comics where they are focused on a team, such as the X-Men or the Fantastic Four. Those comics are usually written in a way that the team is needed to prevail. However, take the team away, and write about just one member, and they usually still do fine. Why is this? The storyteller can alter the threat against the single character to not be as bad.
It's the same in this game: put more people on your team, and the need for the team increases. Solo, and the threat is much less.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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1) Why not balance to allow "all" clases to be reasonable solo capable as well?
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They ARE reasonably solo capable. It comes down to powerset choices within ATs. A Rad/Sonic or Dark/Dark defender will solo much better than an Empathy/Psi or FF/Elec. A Fire/Rad or Plant/Storm will solo much better than Ice/FF or Earth/Thermal, especially before level 32.
It's a matter of "Do I want to be able to solo, or do I just want to team?" when making a new character. No one ever said that your Force Field/Psionic defender was going to be the best soloer, but he would make a good teammate.
I agree with a previous poster here. If defenders were given the ability to target themselves their buffs would be SEVERELY nerfed in compensation. That is why Accelerate Metabolism is not as potent as Adrenaline Boost, though both powers are similar in design. Siphon Speed requires a to-hit check and does not buff end recovery, that is the price for it being a self buff.
Some tankers solo extremely well, I'll cite Fire/SS as an example. Other tankers solo like molasses, see how long it takes a Stone/Ice to clear a defeat all in the 30s. But, the Stone/Ice is generally a much better team tank because he can handle the damage that large spawns dish out better than the Fire/SS. Once again, powerset choices.
My regen scrapper can take almost anything in the game, EXCEPT enemies that debuff his recharge heavily. Anything Cold or Psionic based destroys him because it removes his ability to heal himself. I can't even count the number of times a few psionic damage dealing enemies caused his death by whitlling him down while slowing hjis heals into uselessness.
SR scrappers don't have to worry too much about recharge debuffs, they have a recharge boost auto power. They have to worry about a few lucky hits in a row. Defense is ALL they have to protect themselves with. If an enemy hits it deals ALL of it's damage rather than a reduced amount. I have played SRs and seen it countless times: the SR is chugging along, apparently unkillable, and then gets killed near instantly when several foes land hits at once.
The point of all this is that different powersets within different ATs all have different strengths and weaknesses. Force Field and Sonic Resonance defenders DO get mez protection, for both themselves and their team. The price they pay for that is limited ability to use their powers while solo. Radiation Emission gets a power that drastically reduces the duration of status effects, look at the numbers on Accelerate Metabolism sometime, it's an impressive amount of resistance.
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2) How come melee classes, are quite solo capable, should they have not been given weaknesses as devastating as the non melee were given? As well so they could not solo any better than the other classes?
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The very fact that they have no choice but to be in melee range IS their weakness. Certain powerful enemies will DESTROY melee toons. Every defensive secondary powerset has at least one thing it does not handle well. When that powerset encounters that thing, it dies a horrible death faster than anyone can save it.
I was running an STF with my level 50 regen scrapper and we got to the point of fighting Dr. Aeon. Myself and the tank were the only melee characters on the team. Dr. Aeon killed the tank in 4 hits, and then turned to me and hit me for more than my max HP. With Dull Pain up. I was at scrapper HP cap and got oneshotted. Dr. Aeon's ranged attacks do not do even half of that level of damage. I got more or less instantly killed because I was in melee range.
Yes, some scrapper builds can successfully solo an AV, but I'm not concerned with that for the purpose of this discussion. Why? Because they are outliers, and do not represent the average example of that AT. Most of them are specially built and have other areas they underperform in.
My Shield/DM tank can hang with an AV indefinitely, but cannot kill one by himself. That is the penalty for survivability, low damage output. Many other tanks can do the same, I only mentioned this one because I have personal experience with it.
My blasters deal disgusting amounts of damage, but they cannot take that damage being returned. They got the ability to fire attacks while mezzed because when they couldn't they were in a worse situation than defenders are, simply because they draw more agro to themselves when they attack. A defender (a smart one at least) is much less likely to lead off with an AoE attack, blasters do all the time, hence they get more things pissed at them at once. If they could not fire while mezzed they would be at a severe disadvantage to defenders.
Let's look at defender sets and ways they have of dealing with mez.
Force Field and Sonic Resonance both have mag 3 mez protection in their big shield. Sonic also has a version of Clear Mind, making Sonic the best at dealing with mez.
Rad has a large amount of mez resistance in Accelerate Metabolism.
Storm and Dark both have stealth powers. They can't mez you if they can't see you. I believe there is some mez resistance involved there as well. Storm has a power that will break mezzes on teammates.
Cold I believe also has a stealth power, but don't quote me because I don't know the set that well.
Empathy has a power that will break and prevent mezzes on teammates, but no way to prevent or break it on themselves.
By the very nature of this set, up to and including the name of the set, it is obvious Empathy was intended as a teaming set.
Kinetics also has a power that will break or prevent SOME mezzes.
All defender secondaries except Energy have at least one hard control power. Hard controls actually prevent any action at all. Sleep, Hold, and Disorient are all hard controls. Energy makes up for it's lack of hard control by having the soft control of knockback in nearly every power in the set. That is actually why I think defenders getting Fire Blast is unlikely. It has no useful secondary effect and no control ability at all.
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In the case of ambushes coming from behind, even if the tank has taunt and really, really, really wants to keep his healer alive; he just can't for the ambush is dev coded to come from the rear and at times spawn right at were the defenders would be standing at.
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So, defenders shouldn't be vulnerable to being taken by surprise? I disagree on this one.
A good defender that is doing their job well puts their team's well being above their own. As such, it stands to reason that being caught by surprise would be more of an issue for them, since they are paying attention to what is going on with the rest of their team rather than their own vicinity. A solo defender is much less likely to be caught by surprise by an ambush, since they almost always announce they are coming with some sort of dialog.
That's why I watch my defender's backs for them when I am playing something else. If I am playing a scrapper or blaster (my preferred ATs) and I see the defender on the team is in trouble, I drop what I'm doing and take out whatever is threatening them. Perhaps you just tend to run across scrappers and blasters that don't understand that part of their job. The defender will save my butt and buff me into a killing machine, the least I can do is defend them in return.
Many times I have been on my claws/regen when an empath was about to be attacked by an enemy and I switched targets and Shockwaved the attacking foe into the tank's taunt aura. The empath never thanked me because they never noticed they were in danger.
See, I think this comes down to us having different definitions of what "fun" is to us. I enjoy having weaknesses I have to think about while I'm in combat, it gives me priority targets and a reason to actually think about and plan what I'm doing. I've played other games on god mode and could not have been more bored if I had TRIED to be. Being able to just waltz through anything the game throws at me is boring to me, I LIKE the last second, down to the wire fights. It's more dramatic, and it feels like I'm being challenged.
I started playing CoH because I've loved comic books since I was a kid. The superhero genre drew me in because, in general they are people that have extraordinary abilities that put themselves in harm's way to protect innocent people. If there is no potential harm to put themselves in the way of it just isn't interesting to me. I always enjoyed Batman more than Superman simply because doing what they do is more dangerous to Batman than it is to Superman. A thug with a high-powered rifle loaded with armor piercing rounds is a credible threat to Batman. The same thing is no more than an annoyance to Superman unless the bullet is Kryptonite. In my eyes that makes Batman more of a hero than Superman, just because he is putting himself at more risk to help people.
Basically, I feel that having weaknesses is what makes our characters more real.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Mmm, interesting thoughts, but a bit way too self serving, I think
Lets start with the if Defenders were to self buff, that would be way too unbalanced, but buffing a tank would not result in an over balance as well? Or that is ok, its ok for my tank to be over balanced, but no way would be fair if you benefited from your power!
Since buffs are basically multiplier of the base ability, Defenders attacks are the weakest in the game. So if we were to multiply this comical effectiveness, we would unbalance the game, right? but when we buff the Scraper who has incredible DPS, oh that would not result with over balance, right? Its aweful for a Defender damage of 1 being upgraded to a 2, but its perfectly fine taking the Scrapers damage of 4 and upgrading it to 8, that makes perfect sense?
Oh I see a poster saying there are 2 combos of defenders choices which has reasonable defense against status effects, what are you implaying, that because there is an exception, therefore there is no problem? What point are you trying to make?
A Defender, even an emp defender, can do ok in very special situations, but with far more care and attention than any other AT. I have an EMP/PSI Defedner and I can solo, but I have to play far more carefully than when on any of my melee ATs, and it takes me much longer for there is a huge list of what not to do, and what you have to do, just to survive; a list practically un-existent for melee. So I find my poor defender experiencing much greater risk than the melees, and receiving the same reward as melees do while experiencing no harrasment nor risk, where is the justice in this?
While Umbral is correct, this was a post for a new power pool, it was for a power pool that would provide for the dev binary use of status effects, which is an over burdened weakness to the non-melee and have most devastating effects on the Defender. Ergo the reson I brought in the Defender plea. I think perhaps a fair correction would be, since the melee were given good range attacks through the epics, a major departure from the original power set dogma, then the support should also receive a similarly effective upgrade in their defenses. In the case of the Defender, they can buy damage resistance through their epics, why not do the job correctly as opposed to half made, and provide through this armor power set in each epic pool a MAG 4 status effect protection. Once more MAG 4 is not invulnerability, the MAG 12 of the Tanker is much closer to that.
Hugs
Stormy
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Since buffs are basically multiplier of the base ability, Defenders attacks are the weakest in the game. So if we were to multiply this comical effectiveness, we would unbalance the game, right? but when we buff the Scraper who has incredible DPS, oh that would not result with over balance, right? Its aweful for a Defender damage of 1 being upgraded to a 2, but its perfectly fine taking the Scrapers damage of 4 and upgrading it to 8, that makes perfect sense?
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First off, Scrappers don't do 4 times the damage of a Defender.
Assuming that Scrappers and Blasters do the same amount of damage (re: same damage scalar means same damage, this is actually untrue, the Blaster is pretty much guaranteed to do more damage because their sets are better at putting it out), because Defenders generally use scalar modified Blaster sets, a Scrapper would do ~70% more than a Defender. The reason that most Defenders do less damage than Scrappers is that most Defenders don't slot or take many of their attacks; Scrappers slot them asap.
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Oh I see a poster saying there are 2 combos of defenders choices which has reasonable defense against status effects, what are you implaying, that because there is an exception, therefore there is no problem? What point are you trying to make?
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Are you trying to imply that there is a problem? I don't believe anyone else has actually seen one. I haven't yet met a person who comprehends game balance that thinks there is any problem with Defenders and Controllers largely having no ability to withstand mez effects outside of the use of inspirations. You're going to need to do more than simply claim that, because you don't like getting mez'd when you're not paying attention or because you don't like having to deal with an AT's weakness that all defenders should get mez protection as a solution to your perceived problem.
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A Defender, even an emp defender, can do ok in very special situations, but with far more care and attention than any other AT. I have an EMP/PSI Defedner and I can solo, but I have to play far more carefully than when on any of my melee ATs, and it takes me much longer for there is a huge list of what not to do, and what you have to do, just to survive; a list practically un-existent for melee. So I find my poor defender experiencing much greater risk than the melees, and receiving the same reward as melees do while experiencing no harrasment nor risk, where is the justice in this?
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The entire point is that you can solo. The devs don't care how long it takes you as long as, for the "normal" situation (re: no EB/AV mish, heroic difficulty), the response to "Can I solo, if I play with a modicum of intelligence?" is "Yes." What you ignore in this is that, while Scrappers (though not Tankers as much as you think) can solo quite well, they also contribute much less than a Defender while on a team. That's the primary dichotomy of solo v. team. If you're good at soloing, you're generally worse at teaming. If you're good at teaming, you're worse at soloing. That's how it works and that's how the game is balanced.
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While Umbral is correct, this was a post for a new power pool, it was for a power pool that would provide for the dev binary use of status effects, which is an over burdened weakness to the non-melee and have most devastating effects on the Defender.
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How is a mez hole overburdening to non-melee ATs? Please, elucidate us on your reasoning beyond "I can get mez'd and he can't!"
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Ergo the reson I brought in the Defender plea. I think perhaps a fair correction would be, since the melee were given good range attacks through the epics,[ QUOTE ]
That's your problem right there. They're not good ranged attacks. They're actually pretty bad. There's a reason you won't find any self-respecting Scrapper use Laser Beam Eyes or Shuriken in a real attack chain: the attacks are significantly worse than their existing melee attacks. The ranged attacks Scrappers and Tankers get aren't "good". They're mediocre at best, but they're nowhere near being "good".
[/ QUOTE ]a major departure from the original power set dogma, then the support should also receive a similarly effective upgrade in their defenses.
[/ QUOTE ]
Interestingly enough, they do. It's called a huge amount of resistance for a remarkably low cost from a single toggle. 40% resistance to smashing and lethal along with 30% resistance to another is the standard. That's friggin' huge, especially since it's available to every Defender, not just those that took a specific power set.
[ QUOTE ]
In the case of the Defender, they can buy damage resistance through their epics, why not do the job correctly as opposed to half made, and provide through this armor power set in each epic pool a MAG 4 status effect protection.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you want to make what is already one of the most effective and powerful APP powers even more effective and powerful? You really think that it would be balanced for Defenders to get more resistance than any Scrapper, get better endurance efficiency with that resistance than any Scrapper, and get mez protection to go along for the ride? Right. Because you think that would be balanced.
Try thinking about this: if I asked for Scrappers to be given a single higher than Defender strength and only slightly cheaper debuff in each of their APPs that also buffed the Scrapper, would you find that balanced?
[ QUOTE ]
Once more MAG 4 is not invulnerability, the MAG 12 of the Tanker is much closer to that.
[/ QUOTE ]
What you're forgetting is that, because of how mez works, mag 4 is invulnerability to a certain degree. For more than 90% of the situations in game (most of which are self inflicted by the Defender being an idiot and running into a situation that experience says s/he will get mez'd from), mag 4 mez protection is immunity. Mag 4 is going to protect you from a huge amount of mez effects. It's nowhere near as little as you actually think it is. You'd be better off asking for something more akin to Defiance than asking for mez protection.
[ QUOTE ]
Mmm, interesting thoughts, but a bit way too self serving, I think
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay...
[ QUOTE ]
Lets start with the if Defenders were to self buff, that would be way too unbalanced, but buffing a tank would not result in an over balance as well? Or that is ok, its ok for my tank to be over balanced, but no way would be fair if you benefited from your power!
[/ QUOTE ]
Applying CM (a buff last time I checked) to a tank doesn't do a whole lot in practically 99+% of the game - a notable time to use CM, of course, is GW in the STF. I have yet to meet an emp that can fort/CM/AB an entire team at once. That means only selected toons will get the buffs at any given time. Plus add in the fact you are buffing to make up the difference in your damage out put and possibly being affected by status effect. Another example, an emp def/blaster duo. The blaster all buffed up is a killing machine while the emp def could be held or stun for a time. The blaster damage output made up the difference. This is known as "balance".
[ QUOTE ]
Since buffs are basically multiplier of the base ability, Defenders attacks are the weakest in the game. So if we were to multiply this comical effectiveness, we would unbalance the game, right? but when we buff the Scraper who has incredible DPS, oh that would not result with over balance, right? Its aweful for a Defender damage of 1 being upgraded to a 2, but its perfectly fine taking the Scrapers damage of 4 and upgrading it to 8, that makes perfect sense?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. Proof you say? How about this? Where are all the other AT MSTF's? Maybe they were done some time ago and lost in the purge. I am willing to bet there has been all controller MSTF's too, just haven't seen a pic/post of it. Defenders when grouped together are wickedly powerful by multiplying their "comical" effectiveness.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh I see a poster saying there are 2 combos of defenders choices which has reasonable defense against status effects, what are you implaying, that because there is an exception, therefore there is no problem? What point are you trying to make?
[/ QUOTE ]
Diversity. Let's all be emps? But I want a rad or kin def. Why must they all be the same? Dark is great for debuffing, so is rad - but *differently*. So there is no problem. Each def brings something to the table for a team to handle different situations.
[ QUOTE ]
A Defender, even an emp defender, can do ok in very special situations, but with far more care and attention than any other AT. I have an EMP/PSI Defedner and I can solo, but I have to play far more carefully than when on any of my melee ATs, and it takes me much longer for there is a huge list of what not to do, and what you have to do, just to survive; a list practically un-existent for melee. So I find my poor defender experiencing much greater risk than the melees, and receiving the same reward as melees do while experiencing no harrasment nor risk, where is the justice in this?
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay simple example. I have 50 DM/regen scrapper and 50 grav/FF controller. I pick up Carnie paper missions to defeat boss for each of them in PI set to diff 5.
Mission type 1 - Has DRM boss at end. Scrapper faceplants in seconds due to end drain effects of the debuff. Controller yawns another mission done.
Mission type 2 - Has MI boss at end. Scrapper yawns another mission done. Controller faceplants due to multiple pets summoned by MI and overcomes her single pet.
Both faced the same risk for the same reward, but had difficulty depending on the mob. My emp/psi def doesn't stand much of a chance against Carnies. Other mobs, not much an issue. If I had emp/dark, would it be problem against Carnies? What then about CoT?
As noted above, some ATs/powers are more *favorable" for soloing vs. other ATs/powers. But all can solo.
[ QUOTE ]
While Umbral is correct, this was a post for a new power pool, it was for a power pool that would provide for the dev binary use of status effects, which is an over burdened weakness to the non-melee and have most devastating effects on the Defender. Ergo the reson I brought in the Defender plea. I think perhaps a fair correction would be, since the melee were given good range attacks through the epics, a major departure from the original power set dogma, then the support should also receive a similarly effective upgrade in their defenses. In the case of the Defender, they can buy damage resistance through their epics, why not do the job correctly as opposed to half made, and provide through this armor power set in each epic pool a MAG 4 status effect protection. Once more MAG 4 is not invulnerability, the MAG 12 of the Tanker is much closer to that.
Hugs
Stormy
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree that it is not an overburden weakness.
Here are some of my 50's:
emp/psi def, kin/arch def, D3 def
fire/rad corr, ice/cold corr, son/kin corr, dark/therm corr
So I have experience with ATs that don't have status protection. They solo or team just fine. Some are better at soloing (ice/cold corr or D3 def) than others (dark/therm corr or emp/psi def). It is part of the diversity of the game.
One last point on balance. In short, the devs could easily give def (or other ATs) status protection/resistance/mitigation. If everyone has status protection/resistance/mitigation, then may be mobs will be tweaked to still give challenge. Otherwise, what is the point of status effects if they don't do anything to any player?
[ QUOTE ]
Mmm, interesting thoughts, but a bit way too self serving, I think
[/ QUOTE ]
How is it self-serving? I was simply stating my opinion on why mez protection is unnecessary/borderline-overpowered for defenders and controllers. I neglected to mention it, but I include corruptors and masterminds in that category as well (dominators have mez protection 50% of the time)
The way I see it, an AT that can free others from status effects while also being immune to them themselves will trivialize a lot of the challenges in the game.
I get frustrated in conversations like this when people ask for a game that is ALREADY easy to be made even EASIER.
The comic book character comparison doesn't work either. A character in a comic book is as powerful or vulnerable as the writer wants them to be in order to drive the story. Balance considerations are unnecessary because the next writer to come along has complete control over what happens, that is why you see such huge continuity gaps in comics.
Game developers have to consider how to make a character type viable without being overpowered or gimped. If a character is good at something, it necessarily has to be bad at something else. Otherwise balance is thrown out of whack and you have no one playing anything but the unbalanced type because they are better than everything else. I don't pretend to understand game programming, but I'm good at seeing how things balance.
I'm sorry you disagree with me, but if our characters all had no weaknesses it would be a very one-dimensional game. The weakness of most defenders, controllers, and corruptors is that they have no status protection. The ones that DO have it have other weaknesses to balance that out.
Scrappers solo wonderfully, but their damage pales in comparison to a blaster on teams. They also tend to lack large amounts of AoE. Scrappers with lots of AoE have low ST damage. Claws has a little of both, but it's individual attacks are somewhat weaker. Spines excels at killing minions, but lags behind in killing bosses and above. The price scrappers pay for solo ability is the fact that they don't bring much to teams. They are the most solo-oriented AT.
Defenders can make some teams undefeatable, and they make all teams better, but the price they pay for that is vulnerability to status effects and slow soloing speed. I would say that is fair. They are the most team-oriented AT.
The other 3 basic hero ATs fall somewhere between them.
Tanks can live through practically anything, but have low damage output so they aren't overpowered. A tank will solo with ease, but very slowly.
Blasters can solo at a good speed if they are careful, and they get even better on teams. Their damage output is offset by their relative vulnerability. They tend to be binary, either killing everything in sight, or laying on the floor. They were given a limited form of status immunity to balance that a little.
A well played controller can be the most powerful AT heroside, but only so long as everything stays within their control. Status protection is usually unnecessary because everything that can mez is already locked down. If things go wrong they get dead quick.
If defenders are given more solo viability, it stands to reason that their contribution to teams would be reduced to keep it fairly even. The reverse holds true for scrappers.
Ok, say defenders are given the ability to target themselves with their buffs, which was one of your solutions. Did you think about the potential for extreme brokenness or were you just throwing it out there?
A Force Field defender would be able to match or exceed SR levels of defense, and have status protection at the same time. Add in the ability to keep everything at range where it will do less damage, and you have a nearly unkillable character that STILL solos slow, because their primary does nothing to boost damage.
An Empathy defender would be matching regen-level regen rates, only the actual amounts would differ due to lower max HP, the percentages would be comparable. Status protection, as well as a very nice ST heal AND an aura, would basically make them into ranged regen scrappers. If you were to slot Fortitude for defense you could potentially softcap yourself to EVERYTHING, if you include Weave, and Combat Jumping with set bonuses. Overpowered? Outcome likely.
Sonic defenders would get the capability of mag 6 status protection and a debuff to anything in melee range of them. Also the ability to add more resistance on top of their epic shield.
Kinetics would have resistance to smashing and lethal, stackable mez protection, and the ability to effectively have double SB at all times. No Stamina or travel power needed, and the capability to hit damage cap unassisted. Yeah, THAT wouldn't be overpowered
Radiation Emission wouldn't change, unless they were given the ability to use Fallout and Mutate after defeat, which I doubt is even possible since they both require endurance to use.
Trick Arrow wouldn't benefit. Neither would Dark Miasma unless you could use Howling Twilight after defeat.
Cold defenders would have: Dull Pain (effectively) very nice defensive shields to stack with Frozen Armor in the epic (probably close to softcapped to smashing and lethal right there) AND the ability to debuff the hell out of stuff.
Accelerate Metabolism is similar in effect to Adrenaline Boost, but less potent, because it is usable on yourself. All defender powers follow the same thinking. Heal auras are less potent than ST heals because they are usable on yourself. Siphon Speed has no endurance recovery component and requires a target because it is usable on yourself, unlike Siphon Speed.
Allowing defenders to target themselves would A) make many of them overpowered, and/or B) cause a nerf to all their buffs because the devs would likely continue that same line of thought where buffs are concerned. Note that the sets that contain no buffs would not improve in performance.
That was one solution you proposed. My reasons above show why I think it's a bad idea.
The other solution was a power pool available to everyone that had status protection in it.
That is equally unlikely because I doubt the devs are going to give ATs abilities they never intended them to have via a power pool. If they wanted defenders to have status protection, they WOULD have it, and this debate never would have happened.
They decided a long time ago that defenders would be squishy, vulnerable to mez, and have low damage to balance the fact that they are such valuable additions to a team.
Some people say that controllers do the job of a defender even better, I disagree, even on the basis of defenders having more potent buffs if nothing else.
You've been thinking about YOUR fun. You haven't thought about the ramifications of what status protection would do to defenders' powers. Making them more self sufficient would have the equal/opposite effect of making them less effective on teams, because I'd be willing to bet the devs will never give defenders status protection without taking something away from them in return.
I can't imagine that the people who play strictly-team defenders would be too happy if they got nerfed because you got what you wanted.
(Edit: Sorry about the humongous post, but I couldn't express my thoughts on this simply)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Has anyone answered the question of 3 Super Heroes or Heroines who can only use their powers on others and not themselves?
This is a Hero game right? Or is it a generic MMO with Hero trappings? Heroes by definition are self sufficient, my last mission against a bunch of normal people with stun grenades made me feel less heroic. I can fight beings from other planets or dimensions, undead and even mutates; but against a normal man with a stun grenade I am helpless once I eat all my break frees.
So I am still waiting, 3 Major Heroes or Heroines (not some obscure single issue wonder) who cannot use their powers on themselves but only on other people.
[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone answered the question of 3 Super Heroes or Heroines who can only use their powers on others and not themselves?
This is a Hero game right? Or is it a generic MMO with Hero trappings? Heroes by definition are self sufficient, my last mission against a bunch of normal people with stun grenades made me feel less heroic. I can fight beings from other planets or dimensions, undead and even mutates; but against a normal man with a stun grenade I am helpless once I eat all my break frees.
So I am still waiting, 3 Major Heroes or Heroines (not some obscure single issue wonder) who cannot use their powers on themselves but only on other people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you really going to be so obtuse as to continue along the line of logic that because it works that way in comic books, it should work that way in an MMO?
Really, if you are, I've got some demands too.
Show me a Regen scrapper that has to pause every few seconds to heal himself. Show me an Empath that uses his/her powers to heal rather than actually messing with minds. Show me the real difference as a comic book sees it between a Fire Blaster and a Fire Controller and show me any Fire Controller that summons Imps to help him/her fight (much less any controller). Show me any case where a Cold Domination support character exists (everyone I've seen that does something like this is actually Ice Armor).
You're still trying to use comic book logic to get game balance changes. It's not going to work. Comic books and games don't operate even remotely similarly for all the reasons we've repeatedly stated. The line of logic you're attempting to use isn't even appropriately associated with this line of discussion.
For the love of whatever higher power you follow (or choose not to), figure out how the game is balanced and why it's balanced that way before trying to convince the devs to make drastic changes to it.
[ QUOTE ]
This is a Hero game right? Or is it a generic MMO with Hero trappings?
[/ QUOTE ]
Dear god, I've been playing an MMO! A game where power balance amongst different characters on a large scale is required! If only this was a single player console game!
[ QUOTE ]
Heroes by definition are self sufficient
[/ QUOTE ]
You may want to consult a dictionary. Even Gilgamesh had Enkidu to help him kick butt and it doesn't get older than that.
[ QUOTE ]
but against a normal man with a stun grenade I am helpless once I eat all my break frees
[/ QUOTE ]
So you acknowledge that the game gives you a way to prevent/negate being stunned already, and then ignore it?
[ QUOTE ]
3 Major Heroes or Heroines (not some obscure single issue wonder) who cannot use their powers on themselves but only on other people
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a sucker's game, by the way. Going by the rule that your powers have to effect yourself, Blasters are not real heroes. Therefore neither are any characters such as Cyclops or Green Arrow. Yes that's only two; it's because I'm not wasting my time looking up every "blaster type" character in existance. Probably because as has been pointed out many, many times in this thread writers have the luxury of making things as difficult or simple as they want for the hero. That's not possible in a MMO.
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
[ QUOTE ]
Since buffs are basically multiplier of the base ability, Defenders attacks are the weakest in the game. So if we were to multiply this comical effectiveness, we would unbalance the game, right? but when we buff the Scraper who has incredible DPS, oh that would not result with over balance, right? Its aweful for a Defender damage of 1 being upgraded to a 2, but its perfectly fine taking the Scrapers damage of 4 and upgrading it to 8, that makes perfect sense?
[/ QUOTE ]
What was it that Castle said?
Repeat Offenders have consistently proven that an all Defender team can turn the stupidly difficult into the pathetically easy.
I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember the actual quote, but that's basically what he said.
Yeah, that's the weakest in the game and comical in their effectiveness.
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
[ QUOTE ]
Heroes by definition are self sufficient
[/ QUOTE ]
he&#8901;ro
&#8194;&#8194;/&#712;h&#618;&#601;ro&#650;/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [heer-oh] Show IPA
Use Hero in a Sentence
noun, plural -roes; for 5 also -ros.
1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3. the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
4. Classical Mythology.
a. a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who often came to be honored as a divinity.
b. (in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of special strength, courage, or ability.
c. (in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.
5. hero sandwich.
6. the bread or roll used in making a hero sandwich.
That's funny, I don't see "self-sufficient" mentioned anywhere in there. And that is the dictionary definition of hero.
[ QUOTE ]
but against a normal man with a stun grenade I am helpless
[/ QUOTE ]
Comic book characters affected by stun grenades:
Hawkeye(Ronin),Daredevil(particularly vulnerable), The Punisher, Green Arrow, Cyclops, Havok, Captain America, Iron Man, Professor X, Kitty Pryde, Storm, Blue Beetle, Nick Fury, 3/4ths of the Fantastic Four(only Ben Grimm is resistant to them),.....Do I REALLY need to list them all? I could give you a similar list of characters whose powers only affect others as well. If you're going to bring up comic books to make your arguments, learn something about them first. Your apparent stance that comic book characters don't have weaknesses is just silly.
That really is a dumb argument
"Hero" does NOT mean "Invincible" unless the writer decides it does. Comic books are completely arbitrary, the rules change from issue to issue, and sometimes from page to page depending on the writer's whim. A video game cannot work like that or it could never function.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Okay. I have a level 45 Rad/Sonic defender. I am aware of my weakness against mez effects.
So what are my options?
I can:
A) Learn to adapt to situations in which I will be facing enemies with mezzing capability, in which I would use the 4 mez effects I have available to incapacitate them before they can do the same to me. Or use Accelerate Metabolism (oh, look at that, a power that reduces the duration of status effects) before engaging foes that I know have status effects available to them.
When soloing, the foes you encounter with status effect powers are in small numbers and are usually LTs. One Dominate or Screech eliminates the possibility of them mezzing me because they can no longer use those powers. If they hit me first? Well, that's what I get for not paying attention isn't it?
On teams, if you are getting frequently mezzed and there is a tank, a controller, or a defender on the team with you...either your team sucks, or you do.
-OR-
B) I could start a thread requesting that status effect protection be given to EVERYONE in the form of a pool power. Why not just go all the way here and request that status effects be completely removed from the game? That would get rid of so many of those annoying powers, and 2 entire archtypes to boot!
Point being, if everyone is made completely immune to status effects, what is the point of them even being in the game?
I enjoy playing my defender solo because it is a CHALLENGE. Which is something sorely lacking after 3 years of experience. I have to think about more than: Jump into the crowd and start pressing buttons, when everything is dead do the same thing with the next crowd. I have to actually decide what I am going to attack first, and there are consequences if I choose badly.
There's a word for that kind of thing you know. That word is STRATEGY
I get frustrated seeing people asking to be given powers to handle things that could easily be handled just by paying attention to what the hell they're doing. If you want to rush into combat without thinking about any kind of plan of action beforehand, you have every right to. If that leads to you getting mezzed and killed, well, maybe you shouldn't do that next time.
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.