City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Influence Destruction Projects?

5th_Player

By 5th_Player,
Posted on: 2009-06-10 06:22 in The Market and Inventions

 

Posted

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I'm looking for a new project.

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Stabilize redside uncommon salvage. It can easily spike at 500k.
It's what luck charms only dreamed of being.

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If you want to help? You can.

Buy at the low price and sell at twice that price. So if it's got a range from 10K to 500K, buy at (for instance) 11K and sell at 22K.

I'm going to try and keep 10 of each in stock, checking once a day or thereabouts. Wish me luck, I'll need it.

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If this were a comic book or TV show it would be a crossover with the "Blow My Niche" thread.

total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

qr

Heh, this reminds me of a conversation I had with a client about Warren Buffett. Buffett (who has done wonderful things, not just in business, but in charity as well) always complains that his taxes are too low and stumps for various tax benefits to be reduced or eliminated. My feeling is that if he wants to pay higher taxes, he can send a check to the Treasury for as much as he wants; his real complaint is that OTHER PEOPLE's taxes are too low. Which is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Getting back to your issue, the problem is that not only do you want to destroy your inf, but also the inf of other market participants. The first part is easy; the second not so much. I would recommend:

1. Just make as much inf as you can through normal means then delete/burn it to take it out of the system. Every inf you take out of the system via commission is an inf taken away from someone else, either by getting rid of new value in the system or destroying accumulated value. Make a billion, transfer it to a mule, delete. Repeat hundreds of times.

2. Identify the items in the system that are used as trading vehicles or stores of wealth. Generally, these are going to be items that enter the system at a slower rate than the rate at which they exit the system. LotGs for example. Once you have identified these items, buy them. And delete them. This destroys the listing fee on one trade, but if you are able to keep ahead of the supply, prices will increase disproportionally to the "economy" as a whole, meaning that commissions will increase as well. This will cause micro-inflation in various markets while having a much lesser effect on macro-inflation in the aggregate market. Traders and the wealthy will pay more in commissions, while users of common salvage and IOs will not see their prices increase nearly so much.

Of course, it'll cost you.

Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html

 

Posted

"Oh dear, politics" warning...

Moving slightly off topic to Buffet for a second: This is the guy who said something like "If there is class warfare in America, my class is definitely winning." Yes, he thinks other people's taxes are too low. And what he's saying is that if you raise the taxes on them [and him] he will pay his share without complaint.

There was a lot of money generated over the last 20 years or so and pretty much all of it went to the top 2% of the country, while almost none of it went to the bottom 98%. You might think that the government shouldn't be disproportionately rewarding those people (for instance, having a capital gains rate LOWER than "Actual money for doing a job" rate.)And yet, here we are.

Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

 

Posted

Nasty stuff, politics. Bad for your liver. Never touch the stuff.

Another thing you could do is to manipulate various liquid markets to put in a price floor by buying and deleting items. This will also cause micro-inflation in these markets, which will raise prices paid as well as commissions paid. Every piece of common salvage traded for 5,000 inf is another 500 inf gone forever (and note it is more destroyed than the vendor floor gain of 250).

Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html

 

Posted

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2. Identify the items in the system that are used as trading vehicles or stores of wealth. Generally, these are going to be items that enter the system at a slower rate than the rate at which they exit the system. LotGs for example. Once you have identified these items, buy them. And delete them. This destroys the listing fee on one trade, but if you are able to keep ahead of the supply, prices will increase disproportionally to the "economy" as a whole, meaning that commissions will increase as well. This will cause micro-inflation in various markets while having a much lesser effect on macro-inflation in the aggregate market. Traders and the wealthy will pay more in commissions, while users of common salvage and IOs will not see their prices increase nearly so much.

Of course, it'll cost you.

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You might, I say *might*, be able to do almost the opposite of this. If you identify a key niche and set up just right, you might be able to freeze a big someone or group of someones out of that niche entirely. If you can undercut a major position, and the holders of that position choose not to wait you out, then they'll have to liquidate or re-list lower.

Thats the only thing I can think of off the top of my head that might cause pure destruction of someone else's INF.

Of course there are a number of things that could go amiss with such a scheme, but you *are* looking for a project...

 

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2. Identify the items in the system that are used as trading vehicles or stores of wealth. Generally, these are going to be items that enter the system at a slower rate than the rate at which they exit the system. LotGs for example. Once you have identified these items, buy them. And delete them. This destroys the listing fee on one trade, but if you are able to keep ahead of the supply, prices will increase disproportionally to the "economy" as a whole, meaning that commissions will increase as well. This will cause micro-inflation in various markets while having a much lesser effect on macro-inflation in the aggregate market. Traders and the wealthy will pay more in commissions, while users of common salvage and IOs will not see their prices increase nearly so much.

Of course, it'll cost you.

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You might, I say *might*, be able to do almost the opposite of this. If you identify a key niche and set up just right, you might be able to freeze a big someone or group of someones out of that niche entirely. If you can undercut a major position, and the holders of that position choose not to wait you out, then they'll have to liquidate or re-list lower.

Thats the only thing I can think of off the top of my head that might cause pure destruction of someone else's INF.

Of course there are a number of things that could go amiss with such a scheme, but you *are* looking for a project...

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Very good point. If you can get someone to relist, that's a posting fee gone completely, and then a second erosion of inf when they relist and sell it.

But like you say, it would be very hard to do. And I don't suspect people relist very often; I think most tend to set and forget. But that is good thinking!

Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html

 

Posted

I think Bank of JoJo may be the way to go. I have three "home servers" so I would only destroy money if someone used my services going to or from another server than Infinity,Victory, or Pinnacle.

But if someone moved a billion (on a home server), and someone else moved a billion BACK, I'd make probably 200 million inf [move to own account].

If someone moved a billion (to or from another server) I'd get rid of 100 million [removed from game]. And at least some of it would be their money.

Plus, providing a service.

Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

 

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unless you nerf the farms and put a cap on sale prices in relation to item level in ww/bm, you won't deplete inf. People will find a way around what you are trying to do if it was implimented.

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Price caps won't lower the amount of inf in the system. For one thing, selling for less means less inf being removed from transaction fee. For another, it does nothing to address inf earning rates. Inf isn't being created on the market. It's simply being amassed and moved around there. Inf creation is still coming from people punching bad guys in the face, vendoring drops, etc.

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Punch more pls!

 

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Responding to myself, earlier:
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I'm going to try and keep 10 of each [uncommon enhancement, redside] in stock, checking once a day or thereabouts. Wish me luck, I'll need it.


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Now I remember why I stopped doing this with commons. It sucks and it's boring.

If anyone else wants to do it you have my blessing.

Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

 

Posted

The point of this thread is what? Why worry about inf and other peoples inf? Why in the world would someone WANT to pay higher prices?

Personally, i wish people would stop using WW totally to avoid people trying to make the game harder on others. If you don't want inf, STOP trying to do nothing but produce it. Or give me some, i could actually USE it. But then again, this is coming from eryq.

 

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The point of this thread is what? Why worry about inf and other peoples inf? Why in the world would someone WANT to pay higher prices?

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probably because they like selling things for higher prices.

The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

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Or give me some, i could actually USE it. But then again, this is coming from eryq.

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Hey, eryq! Recognize this? I sent it to you on May 25th. It took me about an hour to write it, and I'm pleased to see that you didn't pay any attention. These are the exact techniques that I used to make about 1.7 billion inf on a level 18 character. I fail to see why you're still begging for money.

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TL;DR version- buy nice level 35 and 40 recipes at "Going price", craft em and sell for 10% under "Going price".


There are thousands of niches and I try to not get into a habit. Only have one or two of the same thing in inventory, in case you get bit.

There are two parts to finding a niche: 1. Know where to look, and 2. know when you've found one. I'm doing 2 (Due diligence) first.

Before anything, make sure the "for sale + bidding" is set to "All".

2a. Is the price of the last 5 crafted considerably higher than the price of the ingredients + recipe + crafting cost?
2b. Did the last 5 crafted sell in a couple of days?
2c [optional] are there a LOT more crafted for sale than there are bids? Are there any bids at all? If so, these are warning signs.

Taking a few examples.

Level 40 Miracle End/Rech/Healing (picked because I've sold them recently):
2a. the recipe sells for around a million. The Mu Vestment sells for around a million. Crafting cost is around 200K. The final crafted product sells for 6 million.
10% goes to Wents, so 5.4 million minus 2.2 million is 2.8 million.
2b. Last five sales of the final product are over the last 2 days. You _can_ sell it.
2c. There are zero bids and 10 for sale. Possible warning sign that the price could collapse... some of those might be for sale really cheap. I'd do it anyway, because the sales are really consistent and the chance of getting stuck with it is low.

Level 37 Red Fortune Def/End(picked at random as a "possibly good" one)
2a. Cost of materials: around 400K. Cost of Crafted: Mostly 2 million-ish with some really low sales. Looks like you can make a million or so on it.
2b. "last 5 sales" are going back a month. Bad sign!
2c. None for sale, none bidding. This could be that nobody's buying because nobody's making them, or it could be the other way around. You might sit on this for a really long time.

Last example: Ghost Widow's Embrace, level 50, Acc/Rech/Hold.
2a. About a million for the salvage, "cheap" for the recipe, half a million for the crafting cost [!], so 1.5 million or so to buy it. Last 5 sales 2.5 to 4 million. So you can make a million or two on it.
2b. Last 5 sales in the last day.
2c. 0 bidding, 3 for sale. Some oversupply but not bad. It doesn't have far to collapse.

An example of something where I'd worry about a crash... can't find one right now. But Miracle Heal/Rech at level 40, if you look at the crafted. JUST had a crash. Price was 27 million, 27 million, 5 million, 15 million, 15 million. Cost of the raw materials is around 11 million. So people were making 15 million and then the bubble popped.

Part 1- where to look for niches. There's a lot more traffic in the top level of any given recipe than in the lower levels. More people buy, more people sell. Level 50 gets kinda weird though, because those are a side effect of people looking for purples. And there's only really money in the things that a lot of people want. The high end recipes for melee damage, ranged damage, AOE, Healing, Defense and Dam Resist. There may be money in things like Knockback and Accurate Healing, but it's going to be a lot harder to find than if you're selling Crushing Impacts and Miracles.

If you find a good niche, you can make 8-10 million inf per flip. If you are only making a couple million per flip, you might want to look for something better. It's a good starting place, though.

If you're not making, like, 50% on your money, you should find something better. Eating a listing fee is a lot easier when it doesn't wipe out your WHOLE profit.

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Edited to note: The paragraph breaks are gone for some reason in the quoted material. Sorry about that. They show up when I go to edit...

Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

 

Posted

Nah, i read it. I just don't enjoy that aspect of CoH. Thanks for the pm though. I do it because it's part of the game but am not interested in having a billion inf to turn around and figure out a way to delete it?? I don't really want to look for "niches" either. I'll buy what I need, i'm not concerned about what others need.

I was curious about why someone would want to delete the money. That's why i replied to the post. I don't get it.

 

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Nah, i read it. I just don't enjoy that aspect of CoH. Thanks for the pm though. I do it because it's part of the game but am not interested in having a billion inf to turn around and figure out a way to delete it?? I don't really want to look for "niches" either. I'll buy what I need, i'm not concerned about what others need.

I was curious about why someone would want to delete the money. That's why i replied to the post. I don't get it.

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There was a REALLY big long thread about why someone would want to delete money. It has to do with the surplus money supply and how it's affecting prices. The point of this thread is how can a single person help by, not only deleting their own money, but somehow contriving to delete other people's money at the same time.

There is a way in this game to stop your XP from accruing. There is no way to stop your inf from accruing, other than just deleting it. Many people complain about prices and the best way to control the prices (given certain assumptions in the OP) is to delete inf. It's counter-intuitive so they won't do it. It's up to ebil marketeers to gather the cash and do with it what's best for the community (i.e. deleting it).

Of course, that is only if you believe that the money supply is a problem. The jury is still out on that point.

 

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Ah, ty Stillhart for breaking it down. Those posts were too long and i got lost. lol. I'm not sure why the costs are so high. I don't think it's the amount of Inf as much as it is the drop rates. I blame the devs, personally.

 

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Things are pricey because i want it now.

Yeah, I really want it now....and Im willing to use fake currency to get it. If the cost of a common is 50k then im paying it. If it has +end and +rech in the recipe bonuses, im going to get it. Yes, you may have my inf.

Btw Im leveling an earth/rad controller and a Night widow now...... so take my fake currency please.

 

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I'm up to like 590 million burnt. Flipping high-end recipes for a bit over 10% profit was a good chunk, but most of it (400 million) was subsidizing someone's base.

(edited to correct the title)

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Glad that idea is working. You should start a new thread advertising this service...possibly in the base forum, assuming you want to get jumped again.

 

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unless you nerf the farms and put a cap on sale prices in relation to item level in ww/bm, you won't deplete inf. People will find a way around what you are trying to do if it was implimented.

I do like your idea, but it will only work long enough to be worked around.

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Devs, pay attention to this person. We need market caps!

RagManX

[/ QUOTE ]Assume Item X is capped at 10,000 inf. But you've seen it sold via broadcast for a million or more. Where would you sell it?

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shhh. Rags and I are in favor of market caps so we can get rich buying off the markets and selling in a true black market.

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Yes. I meant to come back and respond to this. I could get rich so much more easily if the devs would implement real market caps now. I can just put in hundreds of bids for those 5,000,000 Luck of the Gambler +rchg IOs and sell them via global chat channels for 100,000,000. Sure, lots of other folks would be competing with me for them, but I'm patient, and would prefer to get the occasional LotG for 5M than the occasional LotG for 37M.

RagManX

"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2

The economy is not broken. The players are

 

Posted

... staying steadily on target...

I'm at nearly a billion inf on the board. 960-odd at the moment. 400 million in creating Prestige (240 million of that was mine), 60 million in transfers, 30 million in flipping purples, 11 million in crafting L45-50 generics for a badge (incomplete), about 10 million in relisting fees and the other 450-ish million in buying and selling stuff, crafted or not.

NOTES:

* Crafting for badge and selling my wares for 1 was massively inefficient- I burnt 11 million and got about 2 million back in sales.
* I don't know enough about the purple market to make anything at all. And I don't have the bankroll to make a lot of purple bets.
* If I'd done a week of research I might have made more personal inf in my destruction, and/or flipped with more casual confidence.
* Someone in the market channel burnt half a billion inf in one shot when the Respec market zagged instead of zigging. Makes me look kinda small time with my "5 million here" and "10 million there".
* I tried a couple of really halfhearted plans that didn't destroy much wealth- just made ME poor. I'm sittin on a lot of unpopular recipes of two particular types. Mako's Dam/End- I think ten are created for every one used.

Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

 

Posted

Hey Fulmens, I am trying to rebuild a personal base for all my alts on Freedom, if you are still matching influence to prestige conversion, I'm game. I can go as high as 300 million at the moment.