[ QUOTE ]
Making the damage "small enough" is what I'm afraid of. Blasters have enough toggles to run as it is, at least some powersets, so saddling them with another one from their primary with a "small enough" damage boost could potentially do more harm than good.
[/ QUOTE ]
*/Dev and */Fire are the only sets that have more than one toggle. */Elec, */Ice, and */MM only have one apiece. None of the primaries have any. I don't see how adding a single toggle is going to have any particularly deleterious effect upon the state of the build. It's an issue of getting the extra base damage (and allows the blaster to break above the damage cap), which is even enhanced by the base slotting of the power. "Small enough" also means "large enough". The damage isn't going to be so small as to be ignorable with a disproportionately high cost. Toggles are actually more efficient for damage than other effects.
[ QUOTE ]
Specifically, I'm worried that this will end up replacing Aim, because you can't have Aim and two toggles in an attack set, because that would only give you 6 other attacks. I just don't see that happening, which means we'd lose Aim - a 62.5% damage buff, and I don't believe a small constant damage buff would make up the difference. I've seen how many worlds apart Archery/Devices and AR/Devices are all thanks to Aim, so it makes a difference.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm curious what you think "small" is going to be. If it's a 5% increase in base damage, that's a 5% increase in damage, even when enhanced and buffed. That's not to be ignored.
As to losing Aim, which I'm sure the set would lose if it actually did get toggles like this, unenhanced Aim can be used once every 91.188 seconds for a 10 second buff. Enhanced, you'll pull it down to once every 47.34 seconds. Enhanced and IO'd, you pull it down to once every 31.69 seconds. Considering the 62.5% +dam, that's .68% +dam, 1.32% +dam, and 1.97% +dam over time for each of those respectively. Aim isn't a largely noticeable +dam benefit over time, except when used as part of an alpha strike. Aim isn't as great a benefit as you make it seem. The uptime just isn't high enough.
Personally, I've always thought that the loss of Build Up was more significant than the loss of Aim. You don't need all that much +tohit for an alpha strike (which BU still supplies) but you need much more +dam. The only build without either would be Dual Pistols/Devices, but it would have a bonus damage toggle and a +tohit toggle, so it balances out in the long run.
[ QUOTE ]
A critical hit is an interesting idea, but even at double the base damage, it's still a relatively minor contribution to the overall raw damage, and a more minor one still to actual damage delivered to enemies as its uncontrollable nature means it tends to activate on almost-dead minions and triple overkill them, yet doesn't happen against hard targets most of the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you really trying to say that minions with almost no hit points left will get crit left and right and bosses will almost never get crit? That's what it seems like you're trying to say. Minions will actually get crit less than harder targets specifically because they're softer. You're only aiming 2-3 attacks against each minion, 4-6 against lieutenancts, and 8-10 against bosses. Sure, there will be times when you use your hard hitting attack against a minion and get a largely wasted crit, but there will be an equal number of times when you hit a minion with a weak attack and take it out in the first hit thanks to the crit. Bosses and other hard targets, on the other hand, almost never actually waste a crit because they've got the hit points to soak.
The only mechanic in game with a tendency to crit and waste on minions is Scourge. Every other one, Critical, Assassination, and the one I was off handedly suggesting here, has the same chance of critting a target at any health. There is no tendency whatsoever to preferentially hit low health targets than higher health targets. Hard targets are actually favored because more attacks are directed against them. Something else to remember, each check is discrete. Whether you crit or not with any attack has no bearing on whether your next attack crits or not. Your statement here is simply, blatantly wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
A 5% chance for double damage on a Blaster damage mod with a big Build Up attack would be GREAT! Except Blasters don't have heavy-hitters like Scrappers do, which is where the damage matters the most. Some Blasters have ~2.2 scale damage short-ranged blasts (Power Burst, Blaze, Bitter Ice Blast, Blazing Arrow), but even those fall shy of Scrapper big hitters which are in the neighbourhood of ~2.6 scale damage, only shy below Snipe damage. And we've already said this will replace Dual Handguns' Snipe to begin with, leaving the set with fewer still heavy hitters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, critical hit is equally beneficial to small attacks as it is to large attacks. The only reason the hard hitters are nice is because they've generally got higher crit chances, but, in line with your previous line of argument, those attacks also largely waste most of their crits except against hard targets that won't die to a single attack in the first place.
You're also ignoring DPA. Many of the Scrapper big hitters have nice big damage numbers but take significantly longer to animate. Blazing Arrow (1.3 scalar DPA), Power Blast (.94), Blaze (2.54), BIB (1.73), and TK Blast (1.64) compared to Head Splitter (1.19), 1k Cuts (.72), Midnight Grasp (1.29), Greater Fire Sword (1.27), Golden Dragonfly (1.32), and Eagles Claw (.96). The Blaster heavy hitters are better than the Scrapper heavy hitters by the only damage metric that actually matters. Power Blast is the only one that's actually bad.
[ QUOTE ]
All that is to say, I'm not sure running a toggle that costs endurance is worth that.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem here is that you've got an automatically bad opinion of what the endurance cost is going to be. There's no assurance that it's going to cost an arm and a leg for an extra 5% damage. There's no assurance for the cost or for the benefit. The most we can make is an educated guess, and an educated guess would predict a reasonably fair exchange for the benefit so that the endurance costs are no more prohibitive than Targeting Drone.
[ QUOTE ]
On the subject of Super Strength - it's not Rage that causes other powers to be pathetic. As a matter of fact, they're not. They're standard 0.64 minor, 1.0 moderate and 1.64 heavy, the same as Blaster starting blasts, in fact.
[/ QUOTE ]
Once again, you're ignoring DPA, the actual important metric of comparison. It doesn't matter if an attack does 1000 damage in one hit if it takes 20 seconds to activate. Super Strength has Jab (.515 scalar DPA), Punch (.68), Haymaker (.956), and KO Blow (1.5 scalar DPA). War Mace has Bash (.63), Pulverize (.956), Jawbreaker (.99), and Clobber (2.01). All of Super Strength's scalar's are lower than War Maces, and, if you look at the heavy hitters' recharge, Clobber can be used significantly more often than KO Blow, meaning it will actually contribute its DPA to the attack chain more often leading to greater damage. Super Strengths attacks are all lower in damage than their counterparts in other power sets. The big reason for this is the fact that Super Strength gets Rage, which is a significant, constant, and high uptime damage buff. It's perma-Build Up. All of the attacks have lower damage to make up for that.
All of your other comparisons follow the same logic: damage is the balancing factor, not DPA. DPA is the actual determinant in how much damage you'll be dealing over time. You'd do well to actually learn this, especially if you think Blasters are doing so little damage, even thought they've got some absurd DPA.
[ QUOTE ]
I can't say I'm a fan of combos for Blasters. Combos, by their very nature, rely on a "stand and fight" type of approach, with effects staggered until the end of the combo, giving enemies the precious few seconds they need to hold, sap or outright kill you. For a Scrapper, that works out anyway, because Scrappers are built to stand and fight. Blasters, however, are not, and shouldering them with such a playstyle would do the character a great disservice. The strongest, most effective Blasters are those who can deliver a lot of effect up-front before enemies have much of a chance to retaliate, taking out or incapacitating the biggest dangers. That's one of the reasons why Fire/Fire, despite having little control, can be so effective when done right and why an AR/Dev can use Trip Mine + Full Auto to essentially auto-kill a full spawn.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then how do you explain the success of power set combinations that don't operate exclusively off of the alpha strike mentality? You're automatically assuming that the only effective blasters are those that can destroy a spawn in a single burst. It's a base fallacy. Discounting nukes, every non-Fire, non-Devices Blaster is going to actually have to stand and fight when solo. In fact, any AR/* that isn't */devices is going to have to do so because they don't have the huge amounts of area burst damage that is required to do so. Blasters still have to actually act for the entire fight. They're not just alpha strike machines that are useless otherwise.
I will agree that some mechanism needs to be in place to prevent the mez from completely negating combo capability, however, and that's the only problem with Blasters having a combo system. It could easily be solved by having the tier 1 and tier 2 blasts be the more integral of the attacks in combos. It also depends heavily on how the power set itself is set up and whether some attacks are determined to be excluded from combo capability.
[ QUOTE ]
To my eyes, Blasters play a lot like Stalkers - put all your eggs in one basket, buff up as much as you can, then take out the biggest threat before the battle even starts. This requires strong self-buffs for damage and big attacks that can deliver them. Dual Blades, for all the respect I have for its innovation, plays exactly the OPPOSITE way. You start out with your weakest attacks and without your buffs, then build up from there, finally culminating into something relatively big when the enemies have already taken multiple shots at you. What's more, Blasters lacking the big hitters that Scrappers do (even Sweeping Strike is 2.0 and does an additional 1.0 in DoT from Attack Vitals), that would be seriously problematic.
[/ QUOTE ]
In my eyes, Blasters play like Dominators. They're ranged damage. They let loose with loads of AoE and have a bit of control to help them get through. They've got to kill fast to actually stay alive. They don't have anything else to hide behind (Dominators less than Blasters because of greater mez capability, though they've got lower damage to make up for it). Stalkers, on the other hand, are almost exclusively single target. Sure, they'll take out that single target very quickly, but they've got their secondary defenses and placate to make killing their targets much easier. If anything, they've got a number of other tools and strategies to make themselves more survivable that make the connection to Blasters highly inaccurate. They don't have to hide behind their damage alone to keep them alive.
You're also assuming that, if there were a combo system, there wouldn't be any alpha strike capability, which I've never said. I'd actually suggest that the combo effects be largely control and debuff type effects.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious what you think "small" is going to be. If it's a 5% increase in base damage, that's a 5% increase in damage, even when enhanced and buffed. That's not to be ignored.
[/ QUOTE ]
A 5% base damage increase IS nothing, at least in my eyes. Yes, it adds up over time, but at the cost of Aim. And Blasters don't really survive well by damage over time. I'm not sure what other people do, but after putting some serious time into them, I can safely say that a Blaster's most precious resource is time. A power that adds a small damage buff which is only meaningful if your battle drags on, thereby meaning you're pretty much guaranteed to face mortal danger, isn't going to add a meaningful benefit over upfront punch.
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I've always thought that the loss of Build Up was more significant than the loss of Aim. You don't need all that much +tohit for an alpha strike (which BU still supplies) but you need much more +dam. The only build without either would be Dual Pistols/Devices, but it would have a bonus damage toggle and a +tohit toggle, so it balances out in the long run.
[/ QUOTE ]
Build Up is a 100% damage buff, Aim is a 62.5% damage buff. This is not THAT much lower, and certainly enough to make a difference on its own. Both TOGETHER, however, make a Blaster into what a Blaster should be - instant death for the instant they are active. Aim may add up a paltry little buff over time, but it's not over time that matters when plenty of stuff can kill you three times over before the power has a chance to even think about recharging. Over time doesn't make much of a difference when stuff is too strong for you to fight, but where up-front damage would have taken out the biggest threats and allowed you time to endure. Any Blaster left alone does not have the opportunity to enjoy benefits over time, as battles shouldn't TAKE enough time for these benefits to be meaningful. If a battle drags on long enough for these things to take effect, you're already in trouble.
[ QUOTE ]
Are you really trying to say that minions with almost no hit points left will get crit left and right and bosses will almost never get crit? That's what it seems like you're trying to say. Minions will actually get crit less than harder targets specifically because they're softer. You're only aiming 2-3 attacks against each minion, 4-6 against lieutenancts, and 8-10 against bosses. Sure, there will be times when you use your hard hitting attack against a minion and get a largely wasted crit, but there will be an equal number of times when you hit a minion with a weak attack and take it out in the first hit thanks to the crit. Bosses and other hard targets, on the other hand, almost never actually waste a crit because they've got the hit points to soak.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, that's not what I'm saying. But five years of playing with Criticals has simply shown me that they do NOT occur when you need them very often. Many, many of them get wasted overkilling stuff and many more occur on meaningless attacks like Cobra Strike or Blinding Feint. You can't rely on Critical Hits to help increase your performance. Even though Scrapper Critical are slated to occur more often against lieutenants and bosses than against minions, the number of times when a Critical has helped me much is very, very low. Twice so because Criticals REALLY count when Build Up is active, yet the chance of them occurring then is exceedingly low.
I'll be honest. I've seen some pretty amazing stuff. An Enrage-fuelled, Built Up Critical Head Splitter can take out over two thirds of a boss's health in one swing. I've seen it happen a few times over the years. It's not something I would count on, however. It is CERTAINLY not something I would trade my Build Up for, not ever.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, critical hit is equally beneficial to small attacks as it is to large attacks. The only reason the hard hitters are nice is because they've generally got higher crit chances, but, in line with your previous line of argument, those attacks also largely waste most of their crits except against hard targets that won't die to a single attack in the first place.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not true. If you calculate the benefit of Scrapper Criticals based on an average damage increase, then sure, attack strength doesn't matter. That's not how Criticals work. Here's a thought experiment: if Criticals only ever happened on Slash, would that be better or worse than if Criticals only ever happened on Head Splitter? There's a reason I don't bring up DPS at all. This isn't a game that's built around it. At least for high-damage ATs like Blasters and Scrappers where bosses are ~6 hits to take down and minions barely one or two, DPS doesn't really apply, what with significant damage lost to overkill and running around and with many battles over in fewer hits than there are enemies to fight. For instance, does DPS really matter if a Blaster can incinerate 5 minions in two attacks: Aim and Build Up fuelled Fireball + Fire Breath? Because it's well possible and I do it all the time. Or does it really matter when many bosses go down with Aim + Build Up + Total Focus + Bone Smasher + Energy Punch + Power Burst, say?
DPA I'll give you matters when it comes to pumping out a lot of damage fast. I wouldn't bring it up into consideration, however, because outside of Blaster standardized first and second blasts, DPA is all over the place, thanks to the game originally not being balanced with animation times in mind and most of that legacy being still with us today. That's why you get Blaze as fast as it is.
[ QUOTE ]
The problem here is that you've got an automatically bad opinion of what the endurance cost is going to be. There's no assurance that it's going to cost an arm and a leg for an extra 5% damage. There's no assurance for the cost or for the benefit. The most we can make is an educated guess, and an educated guess would predict a reasonably fair exchange for the benefit so that the endurance costs are no more prohibitive than Targeting Drone.
[/ QUOTE ]
But Targeting Drone IS expensive for what it does. And I've no reason to expect a reasonably fair exchange, given how endurance management in this game is handled. I've no reason to expect anything short of badly unreasonable exchange rate. You expect it will be balanced around being a small buff power. I expect it will be balanced around being a damage aura. And even if it weren't, even if it were given as a gift the same way the infamous Grant Cover is, then that just means it will be that much too weak to make the kind of difference Blasters need AND it will be at the cost of Aim. I'm not interested in trading Aim unless it's for something better. A small damage buff over time is NOT better.
[ QUOTE ]
All of your other comparisons follow the same logic: damage is the balancing factor, not DPA. DPA is the actual determinant in how much damage you'll be dealing over time. You'd do well to actually learn this, especially if you think Blasters are doing so little damage, even thought they've got some absurd DPA.
[/ QUOTE ]
You seem to mean something else than what I thought by DPA. The damage you do over time. For all that matters when you don't have time to do damage over. Fat load of good it does me that Power Bolt does more damage over 20 seconds than Power Burst does over the same period of time when either the enemies are all dead in 10... Or I am. Blasters are not Scrappers. They don't get to stand toe-to-toe with enemies and exchange attacks over time. If you don't strike hard and strike fast, you die hard and you die fast. Been bitten by this so many times it isn't even funny. It's either that or you pick up Devices and set minefields 'till the cows come home, which is the WORST way to level up a character that I've ever experienced in all my time here.
Damage over time, per activation, per second or what have you is only ever meaningful if battles last long enough for all powers in consideration to recharge at least a couple of times. This isn't even close to true for most Blaster battles from where I've seen them. Maybe I suck, I don't know. Fact is that time is the one resource I do NOT have. To my eyes, a Blaster relying on damage over time is like a Stalker relying on Follow Up for his damage buff - fat load of good that buff does him when he's discovered and can't assassinate. Well, fat load of good a good damage over time metric does for a Blaster when he doesn't have the time.
[ QUOTE ]
Then how do you explain the success of power set combinations that don't operate exclusively off of the alpha strike mentality? You're automatically assuming that the only effective blasters are those that can destroy a spawn in a single burst. It's a base fallacy. Discounting nukes, every non-Fire, non-Devices Blaster is going to actually have to stand and fight when solo. In fact, any AR/* that isn't */devices is going to have to do so because they don't have the huge amounts of area burst damage that is required to do so. Blasters still have to actually act for the entire fight. They're not just alpha strike machines that are useless otherwise.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can explain the success of these combinations the same way I explain the success of all others - each combination has means for heavy alpha strikes. Even Electrical Blast. It's not always high-yield AoEs, but it's always instant-damage heavy attacks. For My Energy/Energy Blaster, that's Boost Range + Power Boost + Aim + Build Up + Explosive Blast + Torrent. For Ice/Ice Blaster, it's Aim + Build Up + Shiver + Frost Breath + Rain of Fire. For my Electric/Electric Blaster, that's Aim + Build Up + Ball Lightning + Short Circuit + Thunder Strike. My Fire/Fire is obvious - Aim + Build Up + Fireball + Fire Breath + Combustion + Fire Sword Circle, if it gets to that. My AR/Devices/Munitions even more so: Either Time Bomb or Long Range Missile Rocket + Full Auto + Flamethrower. Haven't played my Archery/Devices Blaster in a couple of years, so I don't remember what I did with her. Aim + Fisful of Arrows + Explosive Arrow + Blazing Arrow, would be my guess, though.
Every Blaster has means for hard-hitting alpha strikes, some harder than others, some more reliant on support or control. Any combination or period I've found myself lacking such and asked for help fixing it, I've been told to get a team or buy lots of inspirations. The former doesn't help me and the latter doesn't last a full mission unless I want to make a dozen inspiration trips. It works on bosses and elite bosses, sure, but those aren't as common. It's the regular spawns that cause the most pressing problems, especially 40+. Got burned on a character who reached the 40s and became unable to fight anything once already. I'm not interested in going through that again.
[ QUOTE ]
You're also assuming that, if there were a combo system, there wouldn't be any alpha strike capability, which I've never said. I'd actually suggest that the combo effects be largely control and debuff type effects.
[/ QUOTE ]
IF a combo system can be such that it would ensure a good, solid first he, be it single-target or AoE, then I could get behind that. I've been meaning to play a Dual Blades Stalker since the Stalker changes but never got around to that, and solely because of the Build Up -> Assassin's Strike -> Placate combo. I've no idea what it does, and I don't really care one bit. It's a combo that starts with a SERIOUS hit. If Blaster combos can be like this, then SURE, I'll buy that for a dollar. So long as you keep away from my damage buff and lead at least one combo off with it, such that that whole combo can be led with Build Up if I happen to have it, then why not. The buffs don't recharge fast enough to be used very often, so that could open up the door for the rest of the combos.
The big thing for me is that I do NOT want to lose Aim in the powerset like how non-Stalker Dual Blades lost it. As a Scrapper, yes, I can afford to stick around for a good, long while until my Empower combo kicks in, then stick around for a good while more until Sweep takes its sweet time in coming about and THEN go from there. As a Blaster, I cannot afford that, not in the slightest.
The reason I compared Blasters to Stalkers is in how their sets are built. Even sets borrowed from Scrappers that have damage buffs drawn from attacking have them migrated to standard Build Up powers, because a damage buff AFTER breaking hide is largely useless to a Stalker. Much in the same way, a damage buff that makes a difference only after the battle is over isn't going to help a Blaster as much as a damage buff BEFORE the battle starts.
A combo system that allows and encourages opening with death from above is something I can get behind. One that opens slowly and takes time to wind up, however, isn't.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Toggles can also set character modes, as most heavily evidenced by Kheldian transformations. These modes can then enable or disable powers and even activate specific, mode-dependent secondary effects. I looked at the power set-up of Dual Blades in Red Toamx's City of Data a while back, and if I remember correctly, each combo attack landed shifts the character into a different state, with each next attack in the combo having one mode-dependent stat and each returning to normal mode.
Theoretically speaking, these toggles could be set to put the player in specific modes that powerset powers would then be able to have specific additional secondary effects activated by them.
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess it would be possible for all of the attacks in question to simply check for the Dual Pistols Fire/Cold Mode 1/2. They'd just need an extra portion of damage on them that only activates whenever that toggle is up.
[/ QUOTE ]As I've already pointed out, Assault Rifle.Sniper Rifle already does this when combined with Devices.Targeting Drone.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Not a bad idea.
I wouldn't want to see Frankengun Jr. - by itself at least. I'd like to see dual pistols, with 3 subsets; standard, laser & gadget.
The standard subset would be regular bullets, much like regular guns. The laser subset would be lasers. The gadget gun subset would be gas loads, blinding flash and other various stuff.
RTT
How about this.... We can have a pistol set... and have a "Specialized ammo" secondary that has the toggles? It would be a bit limited in set usage, but maybe if archery and AR can be recoded a bit to include the new "damage type" that would have to be activated by the toggle then maybe it would be worth it? It would be nice in that it would be a good natural or low tech secondary too.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
I could follow along with that.
RTT
a secondary completely comprised of toggles? or are you thinking of something like trick arrow where you get different bullets with different effects (like "tumbler bullet" or "Hollow Point" etc). We have Trick Arrow for that and now we not only have a vanilla primary in DP but now we also have a TA knockoff. And TA isnt even used all that much so why further reduce the amount of people using the set just so they can use it's knockoff?
im not a math genius but could someone find out what is the increase in average DPS is with Aim on a blaster. such as if i used Aim every time it was up (with 3 recharge SO's lets say) and fully unloaded on a group. howmuch extra DPS would i contribute compared to without Aim?
That way we can say "Aim adds an extra +X% in DPS so lets make the Dual Pistol's Toggle ability also give +X% DPS. This is another reason i wanted it to be another damage type. If it is a simple flat damage boost to lethal damage then theres no point in having the flat damage boost since it is equal to Aim. With it being a different damage type you have created a damage boost that is equal to Aim yet doesn't just give a simple damage boost but instead allows the Dual Pistoleer to do two different damage types. The Double damage types would also help the Lethal Damage nature of Dual Pistols fight agianst enemies that have strong Lethal Resistance/Defense, such as Robots.
Other things that could be a toggle:
+Recharge Speed on Primary power pool (I.E. only dual pistol powers in our scenario)
+Accuracy: same as targeting drone, not a favorite of mine
+Chance to Knockdown/Stun/Immobolize/Etc
+Chance to hit multiple targets (i dont even think this is do-able but having a chance to turn an attack into a small AoE or a chain-effect would be neat)
+Endurance Discount
The list goes on.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
[ QUOTE ]
im not a math genius but could someone find out what is the increase in average DPS is with Aim on a blaster. such as if i used Aim every time it was up (with 3 recharge SO's lets say) and fully unloaded on a group. howmuch extra DPS would i contribute compared to without Aim?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm so awesome I traveled back in time and already did that on the previous page! Go me!
The big problem with using Aim's contribution over time is that it's not particularly accurate. Sam and I both brought up the fact that Aim isn't used at every recharge. It's better used by Blasters to achieve a larger alpha-strike in conjunction with Build Up, which, thanks to specific use that emphasizes heavily buffing specific long recharge powers rather than the overall attack string, skews the end DPS benefits of the short term buff powers by having that +dam act on a larger amount of damage.
If anything, I'd expect the Aim contribution over time to be a baseline and have the toggle value be significantly increased to make the toggle do more than simply add .68%, 1.32%, or 1.97% +dam. It would probably be closer to a 5-10% increase in base damage though have an endurance cost high enough to encourage slotting end redux.
If I were to make the power however, I know what I'd do to the power cost: make the toggle cost .01 end/sec (re: nothing) but have a debuff attached to it that increases endurance consumption by however much the damage is increased. If the damage is an extra 10% (whether by chance for damage or simply extra damage), the toggle would have increase endurance consumption by 10%. It penalizes use of non-primary powers a bit, but I think that might be a suitable exchange for being able to increase the base damage of your primary powers as you need/want. If it's deemed inappropriate, it could always be reduced a bit (7% in the example above).
[ QUOTE ]
The big problem with using Aim's contribution over time is that it's not particularly accurate. Sam and I both brought up the fact that Aim isn't used at every recharge. It's better used by Blasters to achieve a larger alpha-strike in conjunction with Build Up, which, thanks to specific use that emphasizes heavily buffing specific long recharge powers rather than the overall attack string, skews the end DPS benefits of the short term buff powers by having that +dam act on a larger amount of damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think we agree here, for the most part. A while back I went around trying to judge the cost of different powers and found that, while continuous use of small powers actually cost MORE, actual practice saw larger powers put a bigger hit on your endurance bar bar because of how they tend to be used first and once or twice per battle, coming closer to their full cycle, while smaller powers spent a lot more time waiting than their recharge and animation would dictate if they were used continuously. Since powers are pretty much balanced on a damage scale per unit of endurance cost (0.192 scale damage per 1.0 unit of endurance cost for single-target attacks), their cost directly relates to their damage yield.
Simply put, the bigger the power, the bigger the buff and the longer the recharge, the closer their contribution comes to the theoretically-defined averages they're expected to achieve by virtue of alpha strikes being so potent in this game. And, inversely, the smaller the power, the smaller the buff and the shorter the recharge, the less likely it is to reach its potential predicted yield per second as bigger attacks tend to be favoured and battles end before things can even out. Of course, that's solo. On a team with huge spawns and many bosses per encounter, "over time" metrics become more pronounced and DPS and DPE start to matter more than alpha strike. Well, unless your team is heavy on damage dealers, which I've seen can level an 8-man spawn in a few seconds if they act together. Three Blasters, say, even when they don't nuke-rotate, can pretty much unleash hell on a full spawn and leave nothing but badly-damaged bosses if they coordinate well.
[ QUOTE ]
If anything, I'd expect the Aim contribution over time to be a baseline and have the toggle value be significantly increased to make the toggle do more than simply add .68%, 1.32%, or 1.97% +dam. It would probably be closer to a 5-10% increase in base damage though have an endurance cost high enough to encourage slotting end redux.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed on the numbers. I was feeling adventurous and crunched some numbers, myself - specifically, those pertaining to me 
Three level 50 common recharge reducers in Aim produce an average damage buff over time of ~1.3648% per second, which would be far below the 5-10% suggested so far. Given how that metric doesn't always come to play exactly as given, however, I'm not sure we can do a direct comparison. Still, given the following:
[ QUOTE ]
If I were to make the power however, I know what I'd do to the power cost: make the toggle cost .01 end/sec (re: nothing) but have a debuff attached to it that increases endurance consumption by however much the damage is increased. If the damage is an extra 10% (whether by chance for damage or simply extra damage), the toggle would have increase endurance consumption by 10%. It penalizes use of non-primary powers a bit, but I think that might be a suitable exchange for being able to increase the base damage of your primary powers as you need/want. If it's deemed inappropriate, it could always be reduced a bit (7% in the example above).
[/ QUOTE ]
I could kind of see that.
I should point out that making toggles cost nothing is already possible. Stalker Hide is a toggle that doesn't have a cost and never drops from loss of endurance. I'm not sure I'm a fan of a 10% increase in endurance cost, though. As a mechanic, it comes with a couple of pitfalls - if it's a global cost increase, that'll strike powers it should have no business affecting, things like Tough or Tactics or Jump Kick. If it's written into the specific powers, however, then that becomes slottable (though I suppose it could be tagged as not affected by enhancements, but why should it?) which could throw things off.
More than that, though, if we're really going for something unique, I'd put those toggles at NO cost in ANY way and have them simply alter damage type. Fighting Behemoths? Switch to Cryo Rounds. Fighting the Carnival of Shadows? Switch (off) to standard Lethal Rounds. Fighting the Devouring Earth? Switch to Incendiary Rounds. If we drop the Snipe and Utility power, we can still keep Aim and have a solid 6 attacks, including a mini-nuke like what the Thugs Enforcers have AND give the set a significant tactical advantage at the cost of some utility.
How can we have a power with no practical cost? If Tankers, Scrappers and Brutes can get Taunt/Confront for free and Stalkers can get Hide for free, then a Blaster set can get a couple of toggles for free. Their point wouldn't be EXTRA performance, so it shouldn't merit EXTRA cost.
I can easily see a lineup of Single Shot -> Double Shot -> Cryo Rounds -> Burst Shot -> Aim -> Kill Shot -> Incendiary Rounds -> Circle Shot -> Auto Fire. Just a concept that took all of two minutes to put together to give a reference
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
[ QUOTE ]
How can we have a power with no practical cost? If Tankers, Scrappers and Brutes can get Taunt/Confront for free and Stalkers can get Hide for free, then a Blaster set can get a couple of toggles for free. Their point wouldn't be EXTRA performance, so it shouldn't merit EXTRA cost.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can quite equate Taunt/Confront and Hide with some other toggles for a single power set for Blasters. One of the big reasons that they're free is because they provide assumed baseline functionality for the AT in question.
Tankers (and the very least) need Taunt simply because that's what their role is supposed to be (even if it is largely redundant considering gauntlet and taunt auras). Brutes, ignoring intended/functional role debate, get Taunt for ranged Fury maintenance (re: getting those guys out of range of me to shoot at me), and Scrappers get Confront because, when they were first designed, they were supposed to fulfill the interceptor role to protect glass cannons and support characters. For all three of those ATs, because the benefit is largely non-existent (you're getting aggro on yourself), the cost is entirely made up by the animation time (plus it's probably also a "benefit" to try get those ATs to actually use the power).
Stalkers wouldn't be Stalkers without Hide. The lack of cost on Hide is similar to the lack of endurance use on Confront and Taunt: it's baseline, non-damaging functionality of the AT. The lack of cost is there to encourage using it in all situations rather than just switching it off after combat is joined.
Taking out multiple powers just to put some others in that switch damage types doesn't really seem like something worthwhile. I could see doing it when it actually adds something, but a pure conversion just doesn't seem like something that would actually be worth it, especially considering what the toggles would most likely be replacing. If anything, I would expect just a single power to be replaced with something like this, most likely the snipe or the utility/control power. Replacing more than one starts deleteriously affecting the power set to such a point that you're giving up a hefty quantity of actual effectiveness for a small amount of situational utility.
This is one of the reasons why I would honestly support my crit toggle idea more than the elemental round ideas. If people want to maintain the 3 basic tier attacks, Aim, a tier 9, and a couple AoEs, that doesn't leave much choice: it's either the control power or the snipe. There's already precedent for replacing either of them (Fire = no control, Ice = no snipe), but there isn't precedent for replacing both, and a lack of control was specifically the design mentality behind Fire. Replacing both might be possible, making 1 a more control oriented toggle than the other, but doesn't really fulfill the control power role, which requires a reliable hard control of some kind rather than a chance or a reliable but largely ineffective debuff.
Well, it was just a concept. I doubt it would help all that much, though with so many enemies having 50% lethal resistance in the upper levels, it might help. But we were talking about something unique, and I thought that would be unique not just as a mechanic, but as an approach to set balance, as well.
Enemies are designed with strengths and weaknesses, and our powers are generally strong enough to beat enemies when we don't face either, and to have a harder time but still beat them when we faced their strength. Fighting robots with swords comes to mind, as does fighting Titans with energy damage. It works, it's just an uphill battle. Suppose, however, that a set could always pick and choose its damage type and always hit enemies where they are weak? Not only is it not facing the resistances most other sets face, but it's actually able to target enemy weaknesses, which tend to be not insignificant. Like, in the -20-30% resistance range, which is a lot.
Granted, not all enemies are going to have a weakness to ice or fire - Freakshow are weak to Energy, for instance, and have neither a strength or a weakness to Fire. We can't really clone a bullet for every damage type (and it would be pretty stupid to even try) but I wouldn't be as quick to dismiss choosing your damage type on the fly.
As for conventions, there are always sets that break the mould. Look at Scrapper sets, for instance - small attack, bigger attack, even bigger attack or cone, utility, confront, build up, bigger attack, even bigger attack. Yet look at Dark Melee. It's a lot closer now, with the changes to Midnight Grasp and Syphon Life, but once upon a time it had small attack, big attack, combo bigger attack/cone, then utility, utility, sorta-Build Up, Confront, then combo utility/relatively big attack. There is precedent, however small, for oddball sets out there.
Granted, balancing a set that relies on switching damage types would be difficult and VERY dependent on what you fight and what weaknesses it has. But practically speaking, it's a lot like having Survaillance on EVERY enemy you fight. 'Course, it would suck to use if you didn't know who is weak to what, further complicating things, and we're probably going to want to add some secondary effects to toggles and so on and so forth.
The point, though, is that what was asked a unique idea and, given the limitations of the system, that does fit. Someone had an Excel Spreadsheet of enemy resistances somewhere, so we'll probably have to look at that to determine even potential viability, but I'd be interested to try, anyway.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
If this could be done I'd like to see no snipe and instead have elec/fire/ice toggles.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is the fact that there's already one power in the game that does add a new damage type to attacks: Enchantment of Serafina. Instant psi damage, perfect for taking on the honoree in his "Unstoppable" phase.
If Fleeting_Whisper's suggestion to have the power act like Targeting Drone and Sniper Rifle doesn't work as it should, it might be worth seeing if the code for the Enchantment could be used. Given the fact that as it stands, it's probably a straight +damage to all powers, I think it would be necessary to add these into a "Trick Ammo" set- probably a blaster secondary, trading damage from the secondary to make for stronger primary attacks.
My story arcs: #2370- Noah Reborn, #18672- The Clockwork War, #31490- Easy Money
Sartre once said, "Hell is other people." What does that make an MMO?
Seen this many times before in S&I. The toggle concept has merit, as has been deliberated so tl;dr-ly by Umbral and Sam, and I wouldn't mind seeing it. The issue for me would be the trade-offs: losing 2 primary powers to toggles, or having a fancy ammo secondary that would then have to be balanced with every other set so people aren't firing ice Fireballs or fiery Power blasts. I'm afraid that would lead to the secondary being setup to work exclusively with DP, which doesn't sit with me either.
Which is why I'm still a proponent of having all our eggs in one basket. Just a primary, with the base Pistols, Dual Wield, and Empty Clips we've seen in Thugs. On top of that, the only pistol wielders in the game that have other kinds of pistol attacks are Malta Gunslingers. I've heard people say they don't want "gimmicky" bullets, but it looks to me to be the least amount of "making new stuff up" the Devs could do.
Using the first three powers as shown in the Thugs as a given, the rest of the set might fall something like (pulling mostly from the Malta entry):
4: Incendiary Round - ST Fire DoT
5: Aim - though a cooler name like "Dead Eye" would be fitting
6: Explosive Tip - TAoE S/L, KD
7: Cryo Round - ST minor damage, standard cold Hold, -rech, etc.
8: Tranquilizer Dart - ST, Toxic DoT (OR Sleep, meh), -Regen
9: Hail of Lead - PBAoE crashless nuke, as you fire an obscene amount of bullets in a circle about you.
That seems like the easiest route to take. Not saying I wouldn't mind something crazy and off the wall, just going on precedent
Edit: This has added allure, I think, because it would make the only set (unless I'm forgetting) that does so many damage types: Smashing, Lethal, Fire, Cold, Toxic.
[ QUOTE ]
a secondary completely comprised of toggles? or are you thinking of something like trick arrow where you get different bullets with different effects (like "tumbler bullet" or "Hollow Point" etc).
[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking of a set that is designed to alter another set. "specialized ammo" was the best name i could come up with.
Maybe something like:
Pistol whip/Gun butt/kick(?): you use your weapon to do a mildly stunning blow to your enemy
Tracer rounds(arrow?)(toggle): -x% damage to you, but adds -def to your targets. "utilizing tracer rounds allows you and your allies to better hit their targets" the -X% damage is a tradeoff for using tracer bullets instead of real bullets
Incindiary rounds(toggle): -x% s/l damage plus x% fire damage plus a chance for a small dot
Buildup
Braced shot (toggle): +damage, +acc, adds rooted status.
Ice ammo: -x% s/l damage +y (where y<x)percent cold damage. minor -speed possibly minor -recharge. Chance for low mag hold
Reload: a +recharge power that is a cross between hasten and buildup. Basically a large boost to +recharge, for about 10-20 secondsish.
Acid Rounds: -x% s/l damage, +y%(where y<x) toxic damage. -resist. Small dot.
Fragmentation rounds: -x% s/l damage. adds small aoe(splash damage really) to each attack that does y damage(where y<x)
im not sure if multiple damage modifier toggles should be allowed to be active... in theory it could be balanced, because each damage toggle removes part of your base damage and replaces it with a differntly typed damage. But on the other hand, it makes it a bit complicated.
For one powerset, its probably not worth it... but if they could go back and alter trick arros and AR to be able to be useable with it, it could be interesting. For defenders they would ahve to switch out some of the powers to be more group effective. For Corr, i would be hapy with keeping them as is. Im not a numbers guy, so obviously it would have to be giver percentages that wouldnt make it op.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
[ QUOTE ]
One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is the fact that there's already one power in the game that does add a new damage type to attacks: Enchantment of Serafina. Instant psi damage, perfect for taking on the honoree in his "Unstoppable" phase.
[/ QUOTE ]
I just checked the information for Enchantment of Seraphina both on City of Data and in-game, and it doesn't add a damage type. It simply increases the damage of psychic attacks without increasing the damage of any other type of attack (+% strength to psionic damage for 1 m 0s on target). So, unless both City of Data and the in-game information are wrong (I've never used it so I don't know), you're reading too much into the description and not enough into the game effects (which actually matter).
[ QUOTE ]
Well, it was just a concept. I doubt it would help all that much, though with so many enemies having 50% lethal resistance in the upper levels, it might help. But we were talking about something unique, and I thought that would be unique not just as a mechanic, but as an approach to set balance, as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem with using it as an approach to balance is that damage type has never been accurately used as a balancing metric. Psychic Blast's damage got nerfed into the ground even though psionic damage is actually resisted significantly more than Fire, Energy, or Negative Energy (which are all the damage type kings). Damage type is actually a rather minor difference except for when fighting specific enemies as enemies tend to resist most if not all damage types to a similar degree rather than having a single damage type weakness.
[ QUOTE ]
Granted, not all enemies are going to have a weakness to ice or fire - Freakshow are weak to Energy, for instance, and have neither a strength or a weakness to Fire. We can't really clone a bullet for every damage type (and it would be pretty stupid to even try) but I wouldn't be as quick to dismiss choosing your damage type on the fly.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is one of the reasons (aside from the variable damage type issue) that I suggest having the toggles add damage rather than change it. Still, the problem is that, in order to make the choosing significant, you've got to have a number of options. Lethal, cold, and fire aren't really varied enough options to make the choice particularly significant across all enemies except against a very small number of groups (CoT, Freakshow, Nemesis robots, Redcaps, Snakes).
[ QUOTE ]
As for conventions, there are always sets that break the mould. Look at Scrapper sets, for instance - small attack, bigger attack, even bigger attack or cone, utility, confront, build up, bigger attack, even bigger attack. Yet look at Dark Melee. It's a lot closer now, with the changes to Midnight Grasp and Syphon Life, but once upon a time it had small attack, big attack, combo bigger attack/cone, then utility, utility, sorta-Build Up, Confront, then combo utility/relatively big attack. There is precedent, however small, for oddball sets out there.
[/ QUOTE ]
I realize that Dark Melee breaks the conventions a bit (it gives up 2 AoE for 2 utility power, which hurt it a lot for a long time) but Castle has been very wary about doing so with the new sets. Dual Blades, Willpower, Shield Defense, and Mental Manipulation all follow the conventions for their respective set type pretty closely. I don't really predict Castle to rock the boat much more, especially if he's also going to be adding a new mechanic to the power set. Fire Blast (all damage, nothing much else), Ice Blast (heavy control), and Sonic Blast (significant secondary effect) are pretty much the boundary of their respective specialization. Anything getting close to those is probably going to be questionable, especially if you're trying to add in other new hard-to-balance mechanics like modifiable damage types.
[ QUOTE ]
Granted, balancing a set that relies on switching damage types would be difficult and VERY dependent on what you fight and what weaknesses it has. But practically speaking, it's a lot like having Survaillance on EVERY enemy you fight. 'Course, it would suck to use if you didn't know who is weak to what, further complicating things, and we're probably going to want to add some secondary effects to toggles and so on and so forth.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's one of the other problems I can see with this. It will have very little benefit and possibly a lot of negative effects on players that don't know or pay attention to enemy resistances. Many players will probably just leave on the highest level or coolest damage toggle because they think it's doing the most damage, even if they're fighting an enemy which has huge resistances against that damage type. People don't really pay attention so they shouldn't really be penalized for it. Most people still think that psionic is the best damage type even though fire and energy are actually better.
[ QUOTE ]
The point, though, is that what was asked a unique idea and, given the limitations of the system, that does fit. Someone had an Excel Spreadsheet of enemy resistances somewhere, so we'll probably have to look at that to determine even potential viability, but I'd be interested to try, anyway.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've already downloaded it (and have been checking it as I write this), but I can't remember where I downloaded it from. I know that there have been a few discussions over the last couple months concerning player damage type superiority in the Archetype and Powers General Discussion forum over the last few months though. You may have some success searching that forum.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is the fact that there's already one power in the game that does add a new damage type to attacks: Enchantment of Serafina. Instant psi damage, perfect for taking on the honoree in his "Unstoppable" phase.
[/ QUOTE ]
I just checked the information for Enchantment of Seraphina both on City of Data and in-game, and it doesn't add a damage type. It simply increases the damage of psychic attacks without increasing the damage of any other type of attack (+% strength to psionic damage for 1 m 0s on target). So, unless both City of Data and the in-game information are wrong (I've never used it so I don't know), you're reading too much into the description and not enough into the game effects (which actually matter).
[/ QUOTE ]
Was about to ask about the same thing, myself. If this really is a buff to psi damage, then that's a standard mechanic, but ADDING a damage type to powers that don't have it (and how do we tell attacks from non-attacks?) isn't something that seems to be possible without the extra damage being coded into the power beforehand.
Actually, I thought I'd give a better idea of how these things work by listing a Dual Blades combo and how it works. Let's pick something simple, like Empower:
Nimble Slash does:
* Enable Dual Blade Debuff Mode 1 mode for 5.00s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Enable Dual Blade Status Mode 1 mode for 5.00s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade Debuff Mode 2 mode [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade Status Mode 2 mode [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade AoE Mode 1 mode [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade AoE Mode 2 mode [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade DoT Mode 1 mode [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade DoT Mode 2 mode [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
In other words, it starts both Empower and Weaken combos, interrupts Sweep and Attack vitals combo on their first hit, and interrupts Empower, Weaken, Sweep and Attack Vitals combos on their second hit.
Ablating Strike does:
* Enable Dual Blade Debuff Mode 2 mode for 5.00s If Dual Blade Debuff Mode 1 [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Enable Dual Blade Status Mode 2 mode for 5.00s If Dual Blade Status Mode 1 [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade Debuff Mode 1 mode (after 0.25 second delay) [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade Status Mode 1 mode (after 0.25 second delay) [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade AoE Mode 1 mode [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade AoE Mode 2 mode [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Enable Dual Blade DoT Mode 1 mode for 5.00s If neither Dual Blade Status nor Debuff Mode 1 [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade DoT Mode 2 mode [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
In plain words, it advances both Empower and Weaken combos to their second hit if they were already on their first hit and disables their first hit doubles, and if they weren't, starts Attack Vitals. At the same time it disables Sweep on either its first or second strike and disables Attack Vitals if it's already on its second strike. Complicated!
Finally, Blinding Feint does:
* ToHit +3.3% for 10s (after 0.2 second delay) If Dual Blade Status Mode 2
* DMG(All Types) +12.5% for 10s (after 0.2 second delay) If Dual Blade Status Mode 2 [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade Status Mode 1 mode [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade Status Mode 2 mode (after 0.25 second delay) [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade Debuff Mode 1 mode [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade Debuff Mode 2 mode [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade AoE Mode 1 mode [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade AoE Mode 2 mode [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade DoT Mode 1 mode [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Disable Dual Blade DoT Mode 2 mode [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
That means it grants the buffs of Empower if the Empower combo was on its second hit, and if not these effects don't activation. In either case, it disables all combos at any stage of activation.
In more simple terms, Blinding Feint has a couple of additional effects that depend on the Scrapper being in Status Mode 2 (Empower combo, second hit), which in turn is a special effect in Ablating Strike that only activates if the Scrapper is in Status Mode 1 (Empower combo, first hit), which in turn is a special effect in Nimble Slash. All the other combos are interweaved through the same powers as a list of effects and prerequisites.
Each power (other than Confront) mentions all eight combo states - two for each combo, activating or deactivating them, with or without prerequisites so as to let the combos flow. That's what it takes to make powers display effects only in certain situations.
*note*
Ablating Strike is the most complicated power in the set in terms of combos, because it starts one and continues two, meaning it enables Sweep's first step every time and also enables Empower and Weaken's second steps if the first were active. It disables everything it doesn't enable. There are no simple powers (other than Confront) but this one is complicated to follow as well as write out.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is the fact that there's already one power in the game that does add a new damage type to attacks: Enchantment of Serafina. Instant psi damage, perfect for taking on the honoree in his "Unstoppable" phase.
[/ QUOTE ]
I just checked the information for Enchantment of Seraphina both on City of Data and in-game, and it doesn't add a damage type. It simply increases the damage of psychic attacks without increasing the damage of any other type of attack (+% strength to psionic damage for 1 m 0s on target). So, unless both City of Data and the in-game information are wrong (I've never used it so I don't know), you're reading too much into the description and not enough into the game effects (which actually matter).
[/ QUOTE ]
I just tested it and it seems you're right. I suppose it was a bit much to expect the power description to actually describe what the power does.
My story arcs: #2370- Noah Reborn, #18672- The Clockwork War, #31490- Easy Money
Sartre once said, "Hell is other people." What does that make an MMO?
first I'd like to thank Umbral for doing that math i asked for.. BEFORE i asked it (Awesome use of Ouroboros).
I think people got confused when i said damage-toggles.
The toggles would ADD damage. Getting hit with an incindiary bullet is still -lethal- and its on fire, thus it deals fire/lethal damage.
Same sense as the icicles power from ice armor. its still a giant spike yet frozen thus it is lethal.
Communist penguin had a neat secondary power set going but it seems it would only work with Dual Pistols and Assault Rifle.
Instead of thinking of a secondary that fits for blasters, we should think of one that would work for corruptors as their "traps" seem more towards the "tech" side of the origins tree. Blasters already have a secondary that syncs well with DP, Devices so I don't feel as if Blasters need a whole new secondary Expecially one that is specifically made and/or catered for only 1 or 2 primaries.
I really wanted to replace the Snipe ability and Aim from DP with atleast 2 toggles. Anymore than that and your limiting attack options and only 1 seems unnecessary. I'm growing on the idea of a Critical hit but im worried that it wouldn't mesh well with scourge from the Corruptor. Not many people use the Snipe so it wouldnt be missed THAT much.
I have to agree with Samual_Tow that the different damage types may not actually be as effective as they are on paper. When your in the thick of combat your not too worried about your damage type. How often do you hear from the Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster "oh, i cant fight CoT because those behemoths are resistant to fire damage.." ? It doesn't seem like a game-changing idea anymore.
Because of this, I think we need 1 toggle to be +Critical Chance (to make up for the lack of Aim) and... I dont know.. i cant come up with a second toggle. I really like Toxic damage though, as there is ZERO powersets that utilize Toxic damage and would be very unique. But agian damage is damage. Mabye "Armor piercing rounds" which make a % of your damage unaffected by defense. So even if your attack is dodged, say (example, dont freak out..) 33% of the attack damage is still applied. I don't know how PvP people would like it but I know that Defense is king and purple candy is easily obtained.
Just more ideas the add to the list so please don't bite my head off.
And thanks for keeping this a positive discussion.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
[ QUOTE ]
I really wanted to replace the Snipe ability and Aim from DP with atleast 2 toggles. Anymore than that and your limiting attack options and only 1 seems unnecessary. I'm growing on the idea of a Critical hit but im worried that it wouldn't mesh well with scourge from the Corruptor. Not many people use the Snipe so it wouldnt be missed THAT much.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're projecting, and that's not a safe mode of thinking. Snipes have their own problems (chiefly, too much general cost for too little return), but it is FAR from a safe bet that not many people use Snipes. Hell, I feel they're one of the BIGGEST ripoffs in the game, yet I still use them often just for the "Boom! Headshot!" I've gone a few rounds with other Blasters, insisting that Snipes needed to be improved and gotten the response that they're perfectly fine from many. Removing a Snipe from a Blaster set for thematic reasons is something I can deal with, but don't do so just because you fee it's useless and unpopular.
As for Aim, we've already gone over it. Having a powerful alpha strike capability on an AT with overall heavy damage and large AoEs is worth more than the "buff per second" metric it would provide, so removing THAT would need a VERY good reason in my eyes. Just making the set unique isn't good enough.
[ QUOTE ]
I have to agree with Samual_Tow that the different damage types may not actually be as effective as they are on paper. When your in the thick of combat your not too worried about your damage type. How often do you hear from the Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster "oh, i cant fight CoT because those behemoths are resistant to fire damage.." ? It doesn't seem like a game-changing idea anymore.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to disagree. Far, FAR too often I've found myself thinking "Damn! Robots! And I have a sword! This will take forever..." one second, and then "Hey, cool! Plants! And I have a sword!" the next. The difference between an enemy strongly resistant to your damage type and an enemy strongly vulnerable to your damage type can be COLOSSAL. Robots, in general, have somewhere around 50% damage resistance to Lethal damage, yet plants have around -20% to -30% resistance to Lethal damage. Going from one to the other can feel like your damage tripled. Freak Tanks, as well, are very resistant to Smashing and Lethal damage and, combined with their hit points pool and Dull Pain, can make them really hard to kill. They are, however, not in the slightest resistant to Negative Energy (though they aren't weak to it, either), leading to them feeling positively squishy to my Dark/Dark Scrapper. Back to robots, going from fighting them with a sword, to which they are resistant, to fighting them with a mace, to which they are weak (strong vs. Lethal, weak vs. Smashing) can turn them from the hard targets you leave for last to the soft targets you clobber first.
Damage type matters GREATLY, but not equally against all enemies and in all situations. Some enemies don't have vulnerabilities, some don't have many strengths and some are vulnerable to weird stuff like how the Clockwork are to Psi damage, which doesn't work as a bullet. This goes beyond powerset balance and into balancing a powerset against the world, which is both a right mess as it was done by concept, not an order of equal opportunities for all damage types, and can change significantly over just a single Issue.
In fact, that's what cuts certain powersets so deep. People fear Lethal damage because it's so heavily resisted, yet Energy Damage, which typically hits a little harder, is barely ever resisted at all, but still is by some of the meanest stuff like Rikti Chiefs and Malta Titans. Negative Energy is almost universally unresisted, except by the few things that resist it HARD, like stuff that's already dead - zombies, ghosts, dark magic users and so on. Cold isn't resisted often and seems like a few things are weak to it, but it's also a generally rare damage type even for enemies.
[ QUOTE ]
I really like Toxic damage though, as there is ZERO powersets that utilize Toxic damage and would be very unique. But again damage is damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a popular misconception that no-one really resists Toxic and Psi damage, but that really isn't true. It's borne of what our powersets do, and the fact that Psi and Toxic protection is relatively rare. However, there are quite a few enemies who resist these, and the ones that do resist them HARD. We're talking 50% damage resistance here. It's a cool idea, though.
[ QUOTE ]
Mabye "Armor piercing rounds" which make a % of your damage unaffected by defense. So even if your attack is dodged, say (example, dont freak out..) 33% of the attack damage is still applied. I don't know how PvP people would like it but I know that Defense is king and purple candy is easily obtained.
[/ QUOTE ]
That sounds interesting in theory, but you have to remember that "Defence" isn't just armour. Melee, Ranged and AoE defence actually stand for dodging, and it wouldn't make any sense for, say, a Super Reflexes Crey Agent to be hit for 33% damage even when he completely dodged the bullet. Plus, coding that would be a PAIN. The power's to-hit roll comes first, and if it misses, NONE of its effects play. The only way to achieve that would be to make all powers in the set auto-hit but put a to-hit check on all of their effects. And even then, you still get the problem that only a part of the effects may land. Say, you could land the Fire damage, but not the Lethal damage, which really shouldn't work like that. It would also make accuracy unslottable for, as you can't slot for secondary effect accuracy, only power accuracy, and the powers are auto-hit. Remeber: "auto-hit" doesn't mean the power always hits, it means the power never rolls a to-hit check and is simply directly applied, meaning accuracy never even applies.
I COULD, however, see a return of the old Blaster unresistable damage from PvP. A toggle that made 30% of a Blaster's damage not affected by enemy resistance might be interesting, though that might actually be LESS effective than switching to a damage type the NPC doesn't have 50% resistance to.
Easy example: A 100 point Lethal attack against a robot normally does 50 points of damage, because the robot has 50% lethal resistance. At 30% unresistable damage, that attack would do 30 + 60*0.5 = 30 + 30 = 60. An increase, but not that great. Switching to all Fire damage, however, a damage type most robots aren't resistant to, would result in all 100 points of damage landing. Not only is that equivalent to ALL damage avoiding resistance, it's also equivalent to a 100% damage buff, only all the time. And that's before we count enhancements.
Like I said - a choosable damage type is a powerful tool, but far too dependent on the enemy you're fighting.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
[Quote]Like I said - a choosable damage type is a powerful tool, but far too dependent on the enemy you're fighting.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats why i'm turned off by the idea of a different damage type, also it wouldnt be a 100% conversion from lethal to fire (or cold, etc). it would be a damage increase by X% in Y damage type.
Ice Blast gets by perfectly fine without a snipe. So i still think removing it would work. I also can't see pistols being used to snipe at all (but mabye im going for too much realism)
since replacing Aim is too much for people to swallow we may need to consider something else to replace. Agian i'm assuming we are receiving:
1. weak attack/fast recharge
2. moderate attack/ moderate recharge
3. moderate cone/ moderately long recharge
4. Aim
5. ???, many sets have a unique attack here, usually a AoE of some kind (Ice Storm, Irradiate, Frag Grenade etc)
6. Snipe
7. Hige Damage/Long Recharge (ussually with short range)
8. Low Damage/ Special effect (weak mez, etc)
9. Nuke////Crashless Nuke//// Extreme Location AoE (Blizzard)
--
Naturally not all sets follow this exact order but they all have these general powers. This is my model for Dual Pistols /w Aim:
1. Same
2. Same
3. Same
4. Aim
5. Toggle for whatever-we-decide
6. Low Damage/ Special Effect (most likely a mez)
7. Same
8. Toggle for whatever-we-decide 2
9. Superior Cone Dot (Generic Full Auto..)
I left out a Target AoE because i don't know of any pistol ammunition that could do something like that. I mean, it has to be 'kinda' realistic right? Sure i could think of something that would work for a Target AoE but I just cant see dual pistols getting anything like that. AR got one because its a swiss-army gun. Its a grenade launcher/Shotgun/Flamethrower combo
The other toggle takes place of the snipe. It was either the Snipe or the low damage/mez attack. I personally would get rid of the Snipe as you can see but its open for debate. I see the low damage/mez being much more useful to the soloing blaster (because for some reason everyone is in the blaster mind set).
I really like this set up but i'd like to see more Dual Pistol powerset lay outs just so everybody can get an idea of what everybody is thinking of so we can hopefully come to some kind of compromise on what looks best for it (and agian, dont be afraid to throw your own ideas out there)
P.S. I idea for the first toggle is the +Damage type or +To recharge/accuracy/whatever. The Second is the +%chance to X on target.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
[ QUOTE ]
1. weak attack/fast recharge
2. moderate attack/ moderate recharge
3. moderate cone/ moderately long recharge
4. Aim
5. Toggle for whatever-we-decide
6. Low Damage/ Special Effect (most likely a mez)
7. High Damage/Long Recharge (ussually with short range)
8. Toggle for whatever-we-decide 2
9. Superior Cone Dot (Generic Full Auto..)
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem I see with this one (and it's a pretty big one imo) is that the set only has 4 real attacks. Tier 1 ST, Tier 2 ST, Tier 3 ST, and the cone. The control can't (and shouldn't) be considered an attack on its own. The tier 9 can't (and shouldn't) because, even if it recharges rather quickly for a nuke, it's still not going to be up more than once per fight most likely. Making an attack string based around 4 attacks is going to be particularly strenuous. Just look at Electrical Blast: you've pretty much got to dip into your secondary to make it worth playing because it shorts itself an attack for Voltaic Sentinel.
A better set up would be 3 single target attacks, 2 AoEs, 1 special, 1 control, Aim, and the tier 9. Don't bother trying to overload it with the special functionality of the power set. Just try to make it playable.
1. tier 1 st
2. tier 2 st
3. weak cone
4. tier 3 st
5. Aim
6. stun
7. +dam/+special toggle
8. strong cone
9. tier 9
Sorry, I forgot I had posted in this thread so this response is a bit outdated.
[ QUOTE ]
You also contradict yourself by saying "I don't want Trick Pistols" but you want all of these debuffing shots like crippling and -speed.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I don't mean that I don't want the set to have any tricks - I do want that, I mean I don't want it to be Trick Arrows w/ bullets. I'm pretty sure that when anyone thinks of dual pistols, they're thinking of The Shadow, or Equilibrium, or Tomb Raider, etc - I can't think of a dual pistols wielder in any medium that fires cryo bullets for instance. Not saying that's a reason to dismiss the idea, but I do think it's an indication of what people probably want when they ask for dual pistols.
[ QUOTE ]
If you don't enjoy my idea (which is fine) then lets think of some other things we could add to dual pistols, or other sets that would keep them from being a vanilla set that was made back when the game began.
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought that's what I did?
[ QUOTE ]
i like your number 2 idea the most although i dont know how you would target two enemies at once like you said. It could be a chain-lightning type effect but then you wouldn't have the option of picking the second target.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I don't think there would be any way to have a power let the player target two things at once - my idea was trying to fudge it by giving the player an incentive to switch targets rapidly. Right now pretty much all powersets encourage you to focus on one enemy until they're dead, then move on to the next target. I thought it might be interesting to try to shake that up, especially since it matches the feel I get when I think of dual pistols.
[ QUOTE ]
the toggles dont necessarily have to be elemental damage. they could be (like others have said, not taking credit here) a chance to critical or a chance to stun. the possibilities are quite numerous, not limited to elemental damages although that is what i enjoyed about the gunslinger from Malta (evil little.. grr).
[/ QUOTE ]
Makes sense, but the thing is that I don't associate dual pistols with that type of secondary effect, and the only reason I was using secondary effects in my example was to try to encourage the player to switch targets. But as you point out...
[ QUOTE ]
Dual Psitols is also a damage set so people will most likely over look the secondary effects unless the damage is set to minor and the attack is specifically made for the effect. And history shows many of those kinds of attacks are chosen second to the primary damage attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're probably right about this, but you can see what I was trying to do with the idea - encourage rapid switching. I'm sure there's a better incentive to do so if you think it's a worthwhile goal - not sure if people would find it simply annoying, though.
I do think the set should focus on relatively low damage, very fast recharge powers. I guess they could fudge it with a bunch of Flurry/Full Auto-type attacks, but that doesn't seem as ideal since those powers suffer from the miss-once-sit-through-the-whole-long-animation problem. It would seem to capture the feel more accurately to have a lot of rapid recharge powers.
So that's my obsolete response.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
[ QUOTE ]
Do we really want this set up? I've heard many suggestions already. My favorite coming from another person was:
"make it like dual blades with a combo system!"
I like the idea! but once agian its not unique to the set.
[/ QUOTE ]
That might have been this suggestion. There are some powers and combos in the set that I would probably tweak after seeing this suggestion and the comments that followed.
On the flipside, I actually don't think that you have to have a mechanic in a new set that is completely unique to everything else in the game. I think that would more likely make it an unbalanced set comparative to other sets in the affected ATs. The combo system introduced in Dual Blades currently is only available to the purely melee classes, and I think it would be great to add it to the ranged classes, if only to get more value out of the work put into developing that mechanic.
I also have a Blades Assault suggestion for Dominator secondaries (additionally linked in the above referenced suggestion), which has separate ranged and melee combos.
@NC Thunderbird, @Last Kid Picked
HELP! I can't stop making Alts! Up to 175 now, including: Lutadora, Tess LaCoille, Not Of This World, Lies Behind Stars, Redshift Monk.
Campaigning for title of official "Thread Killer" of the Suggestions & Ideas forum.