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By itself, swapping damage types is the sort of thing that will likely to appeal to only a tiny fraction of the players, and most of those probably won't even be correct in evaluating its relative utility. On its own, I think in the general case its not a strong enough idea to be worth coding the effects into a powerset.
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Well, that's not exactly what I was hoping to hear, but I guess I can see how that would work. That was my fear going into suggesting this - that using it (let alone coding it) would be too much of a hassle for what it's actually worth. And you would probably be correct that most people (myself included) wouldn't know what's good against what. Trial and error doesn't really cut it when the database of resistances and weaknesses is THAT big, and there really isn't a good reference point to check those things. One could kind of kludge City of Data into displaying critter statistics, but both guessing faction names and actually reading the data presented... Kind of sucks.
So I guess that's out of the question, and I really can't see altering the practical effects of powers as a viable alternative. It makes slotting hell, one way or the other, and I happen to think slotting is complicated enough as it is. Which pretty much kicks me out of the discussion because I'm left without a reasonable suggestion and with not much like for the big things suggested. I'm still a fan of the mechanic of switching between multiple states, but I guess Dual Pistols (if indeed that's what we're getting) isn't the right place for it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Now, if the damage types came along for the ride with adjustments to other secondary effects, that might be more interesting. But to do so in a way that doesn't homogenize the powers themselves (the powers you're adjusting with the type-switchers) would be the tricky thing. I could see swapping DoT for recharge/slow and as a consequence swapping Fire with Cold, that sort of thing. But even that by itself doesn't seem interesting enough to base a powerset on. You'd want to do more.
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I just want to reiterate that I think it's a mistake to use the concept of "trick bullets" at all - I don't believe it's what people think of when they think of dual pistols, and I don't think it'll really satisfy that feel. If I want to roll up something like the Shadow or Fantomex, and he's firing cryo bullets, something's going to feel off there.
It seems like damage-type swapping bullets would be something a spy or gadgets powerset might have, but not dual pistols.
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ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
I think it depends on how they set it up. If they do it so that its one power(that grants 3 toggles) out of the 9, then i dont neccesarily see the problem. As long as the core of the powerset revolves around shooting pistols in a fairly traditional fashion im ok. I DO NOT want ar with pistols. I wouldnt mind "trick pistols" as a defender or corr powerset, but as a pair to regular pistols much like trick arrow matches archery.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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The moment Dual Blades got combos, combos became effectively "off-limits" for anything else short of an act of god, because combos were The Cool Thing Dual Blades Got**.
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I'm actually curious about this. I understand why no other melee set would get combos because of Dual Blades' presence (with the possible exception of some type of Escrima or some other stick fighting power set), but I don't see any reason why a ranged set wouldn't be able to get combos. If the combos are considered to be the "secondary effect" of Dual Blades (which is how I've always interpreted it thanks to the lack of a cohesive secondary effect otherwise), then, because we've already seen secondary effects be shared across similar theme sets (all Fire sets lose utility and get mo' damage, Ice does -recharge, etc.), it would make sense for a ranged set to be able to use the combo mechanic as well, without taking anything away from Dual Blades.
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If you could make the case that Dual Pistols was the same "theme" as Dual Blades, it would be a relatively straight-forward sell. But there's a circular dependency problem here, in that if the devs coincidentally agree with you, the argument is automatic, but if they don't agree with you, there's no obvious way to convince them to change their minds, because the very fact that they disagree with you (that the two sets are the same theme) automatically nullifies any arguments that rely on them being the same theme in the first place.
I don't think this would be an easy sell just because both sets have the word "dual" in their names.
As to the analogy with Fire and Ice, those are conceptualizations on a different level. Fire and Cold as conceptual damage types have certain effects like Dot and recharge debuff associated with them, so powersets that incorporate those damage and concept types get those effects as a consequence. The association is with Fire and Cold, not with the powersets that use those effects.
To take a different example, Dark Melee was originally conceptualized as a lower damage, higher utility melee powerset. "Dark" itself tends to be associated with effects like tohit debuff and fear. The Dark Melee powerset thus has secondary effects that come from its association with Dark such as tohit debuff and fear, but it also has effects that are not always associated with Dark but are directly associated with the set specifically like endurance recovery and heals (neither of which Dark Blast possesses). So a separate question would be whether combos are associated with "dual wield" or with the dual blade powerset itself specifically. That's a question that I'm not even sure the devs have thought about very much.
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If you could make the case that Dual Pistols was the same "theme" as Dual Blades, it would be a relatively straight-forward sell. But there's a circular dependency problem here, in that if the devs coincidentally agree with you, the argument is automatic, but if they don't agree with you, there's no obvious way to convince them to change their minds, because the very fact that they disagree with you (that the two sets are the same theme) automatically nullifies any arguments that rely on them being the same theme in the first place.
I don't think this would be an easy sell just because both sets have the word "dual" in their names.
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Honestly, I don't think the "dual" has anything to do with it, aside from the animations. Dual Blades has no reason outside of uniqueness to actually have combos. Logic would dictate that it would share the same secondary effect with the other blade powers, namely defense debuffing which it only gets in a single attack, because it's still using swords. Swords reduce defense. That's how the game sees it (at least from a thematic standpoint).
For the same reason, Dual Pistols, if it were assigned a secondary effect based exclusively off of basic theme, would do -def like all of the other guns in the game. However, I doubt that it will be given such a basic secondary effect so the problem comes into what will the set be given. The only "secondary effects" that would apply while also having some precedent in game and not duplicating existing available blast sets (which the devs have avoided for a long time) would be either Claws' (rech and end discount for powers) or Dual Blades. My money is on it being one or the other, unless they're going to be going with something completely different. We don't know how far the engine can go or what ideas the devs are tossing around so all we can do is look at what the game can currently accomplish and hope for one or the other.
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As to the analogy with Fire and Ice, those are conceptualizations on a different level. Fire and Cold as conceptual damage types have certain effects like Dot and recharge debuff associated with them, so powersets that incorporate those damage and concept types get those effects as a consequence. The association is with Fire and Cold, not with the powersets that use those effects.
To take a different example, Dark Melee was originally conceptualized as a lower damage, higher utility melee powerset. "Dark" itself tends to be associated with effects like tohit debuff and fear. The Dark Melee powerset thus has secondary effects that come from its association with Dark such as tohit debuff and fear, but it also has effects that are not always associated with Dark but are directly associated with the set specifically like endurance recovery and heals (neither of which Dark Blast possesses).
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I would still argue that Dark Blast and Dark Melee still fill a similar thematic set design niche, just like Fire and Ice do across different power sets. Both of the Dark attack sets (and Dark Miasma too) have a greater emphasis on utility and powers outside of the basic function of the power set. Dark Blast gets 3 control powers (Dark Pit = stun, Tenebrous Tentacles = immob, Torrent = KB) along with getting a self heal attack rather than a normal tier 3 blast. Dark Melee gets the fear, the self heal, and the end recovery power. Dark Miasma gets the fear, the hold, and the pet. All 3 of the sets have powers that are significantly outside of traditional role of the power sets groupings that they belong to. Along with the tohit debuffs, the extra levels of control and utility are thematically linked to the Dark power type.
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So a separate question would be whether combos are associated with "dual wield" or with the dual blade powerset itself specifically. That's a question that I'm not even sure the devs have thought about very much.
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Considering how much game play interest the Dual Blades combos have elicited, I would hope that the devs would at least consider having a ranged power set that shares a similar design. It would seem self defeating to create such an interesting game mechanic and put forth all of the effort to make it such a good system to simply abandon it to never be used again. Of course, designing a ranged set that uses combos would definitely have a greater design demand, which may be an obstacle, but one would assume that it's not outside the realm of possibility.
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Honestly, I don't think the "dual" has anything to do with it, aside from the animations. Dual Blades has no reason outside of uniqueness to actually have combos. Logic would dictate that it would share the same secondary effect with the other blade powers, namely defense debuffing which it only gets in a single attack, because it's still using swords. Swords reduce defense. That's how the game sees it (at least from a thematic standpoint).
For the same reason, Dual Pistols, if it were assigned a secondary effect based exclusively off of basic theme, would do -def like all of the other guns in the game. However, I doubt that it will be given such a basic secondary effect so the problem comes into what will the set be given.
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From how I understood it, people were expecting a fast, fluid set in Dual Blades, which is why it got combos. People were actually posting videos of other people swinging two swords around and almost exclusively they were always doing so in a fluid, almost dance-like fashion. Because of the limitations of our engine, that couldn't really be the case for the actual powerset, but it still came out more a flurry of extravagant blows than the "strike, stop, strike, stop" that were Broadsword and Katana. I feel combos apply to Dual Blades specifically not because they are dual or because they are blades, but rather because of the fighting style they assume.
Also, the notion that guns do defence debuff isn't exactly accurate. Burst does defence debuff, but it's pretty much alone in that among rifle attacks. What's more, the only precedent we have for dual handgun attacks - Thugs Masterminds - don't actually have defence debuff effects on their attacks. Empty Clips and Dual Wield do have a chance for knockbakc, but Pistols pretty much has a single effect - damage.
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Considering how much game play interest the Dual Blades combos have elicited, I would hope that the devs would at least consider having a ranged power set that shares a similar design. It would seem self defeating to create such an interesting game mechanic and put forth all of the effort to make it such a good system to simply abandon it to never be used again. Of course, designing a ranged set that uses combos would definitely have a greater design demand, which may be an obstacle, but one would assume that it's not outside the realm of possibility.
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I'm not sure it's accurate to say that combos are a specifically new game mechanic that had to be designed for Dual Blades specifically, so much so as just a new implementation of existing functionality, such as when they set up certain toggles (primarily Phase Shift powers), auto-turn-off after a certain period of time. One has to wonder, then, why God Mode powers aren't coded the same way so that you can turn them off when they're about to drop without having to wait them out, but there you go.
I don't view this as a lot of work going to waste, as most of the work on combos seems to have gone into setting Dual Blades up, rather than devising a new mechanic. About the only thing I see as an interesting and seemingly new functionality is effects activating on condition, and that seems to have been true for Stalkers since I6 in how their Hide mechanic operates.
Now, I wouldn't specifically be AGAINST combos being given to Dual Pistols, IF they are balanced around how Blasters operate, rather than around the leeway Scrappers have to fidget about in combat. The thing, though, is that I don't specifically see this as a thematically appropriate thing for using dual pistols. Combos assume a barrage of hits, one after the other after the other. Now, with something like a belt-fed machinegun I can sort of see that, but handguns in general lack big enough clips to do this, and don't really lend themselves to being fired continuously. More than anything, and more based on how I've found handguns to work best in video games, to be honest, they work best in short burst and few shots at a time, dealing a lot of damage, then pulling back to reload. If anything, I'd give it a Claws-like Follow-Up mechanic via a Reload power, but I don't believe that kind of small, frequent damage buff really works for a Blaster.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Also, the notion that guns do defence debuff isn't exactly accurate. Burst does defence debuff, but it's pretty much alone in that among rifle attacks. What's more, the only precedent we have for dual handgun attacks - Thugs Masterminds - don't actually have defence debuff effects on their attacks. Empty Clips and Dual Wield do have a chance for knockbakc, but Pistols pretty much has a single effect - damage.
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Players aren't the only things in the game that use guns. Virtually all NPC guns cause -def, and they've got many more pistol users than players do. The prolific nature of NPC guns and how much -def they do is one of the reasons why def debuff resistance is so necessary for defense based sets.
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I'm not sure it's accurate to say that combos are a specifically new game mechanic that had to be designed for Dual Blades specifically, so much so as just a new implementation of existing functionality, such as when they set up certain toggles (primarily Phase Shift powers), auto-turn-off after a certain period of time.
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I will cede that it wasn't exactly a new mechanic, but the entire design and balance structure was rather new. You can see how convoluted designing the powers and effects got if you check the CoD entries, especially when you consider that it's the first time the mode mechanic (which isn't used outside of Dual Blades; Sniper Rifle simply checks to see if a single power is turned on) was used.
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The thing, though, is that I don't specifically see this as a thematically appropriate thing for using dual pistols. Combos assume a barrage of hits, one after the other after the other. Now, with something like a belt-fed machinegun I can sort of see that, but handguns in general lack big enough clips to do this, and don't really lend themselves to being fired continuously.
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I don't see how you think a belt-fed machine gun would be more likely to be a combo set than dual pistols. The entire point of a belt-fed machine gun (aside from being a generally emplaced weapon) is that it doesn't have to stop firing. You just keep squeezing the trigger. That doesn't seem very combo-like to me. That's just using the same attack going constantly. Concerning reloading, that's a complete farce within this game. We don't reload the frankengun in AR. The existing pistol and firearm users never bother having to reload. Reloading in movies is almost always passed over quickly when in the confines of a fight (unless it's being used for a dramatic break in the fight or other storytelling purpose).
Keep in mind that "combos" doesn't mean "firing like crazy". Personally, I think that most of the attacks would only include firing a couple times at most. The cohesiveness and grace of the set would be more involved in the movements of the body itself, getting the pistol in line. Rather than just staying still and firing like crazy (re: assault rifle), the arms would actually be in motion.
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More than anything, and more based on how I've found handguns to work best in video games, to be honest, they work best in short burst and few shots at a time, dealing a lot of damage, then pulling back to reload.
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Something else to remember is that in 99% of video games, the pistol is also a bad weapon. It deals less damage than pretty much anything else, has worse range, and a smaller clip size than anything except for the crowd clearing guns. Considering this is talking about using a pair of pistols to the exclusion of any other firearm, it's not going to need to be crippled with similar comparisons. I'm also pretty sure that most players wouldn't want to stop to reload after every attack. People don't really want to stop attacking.
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If anything, I'd give it a Claws-like Follow-Up mechanic via a Reload power, but I don't believe that kind of small, frequent damage buff really works for a Blaster.
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Personally, I think it would work just fine. Blasters don't have to be alpha strike monsters. They operate just fine dishing out consistent damage over a long period of time rather than having discrete spikes of high damage. There's a reason why devices still works even though it lacks Build Up, and it's not that the bombs are supposed to make up for that (they don't in 90% of the situations). Blasters can work perfectly fine with sustained rather than burst damage, especially if they play intelligently.
I think a combo sysytem for Dual Pistols should only have two attacks per combo. This would accomplish many things. For one, it would make it very easy to give the set at least 8 different combos. With eight combos and eight different effects, you could really customize your playstyle just by controlling the order of your attack chain. At the same time, players who don't want to be bothered by a combo system could just fire away randomly and still get plenty of combo effects.
I'd say make a combo for fire damage, toxic damage, chance for double lethal damage, -def, slow, stun, KB, and build up. With all these options you could really do whatever you want. Consentrate on control, or max damage, or a mix of both.
I listed eight effects because I think the best wat to do this would be to have eight attacks, each one equals an effect, no matter what the following attack is. For example...
Attacks A = KB
Attack B = Slow effect
Attack C = Toxic DoT
Attack D = Build Up
Attack E = Defense Debuff
Attack F = Fire DoT
Attack G = Stun
Attack H = Chance for Critical Hit
This way, you can always lead with the attacks that have the combo effects you want while using the attacks with unwanted effects as your second filler attack. Your attack chain doesn't have to be the same cookie cutter chain everytime to get the effects you want. You would also be able to choose a second attack based on what you want to do. If you want to slow an entire mob you'd lead with Attack B followed by whatever attack is a cone or AOE. If your fighting a boss you might lead with attack D or G followed by a quick animating single target attack.
Just my thoughts. Done.
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Players aren't the only things in the game that use guns. Virtually all NPC guns cause -def, and they've got many more pistol users than players do. The prolific nature of NPC guns and how much -def they do is one of the reasons why def debuff resistance is so necessary for defense based sets.
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NPC guns do the same things. NPC Buckshot does knockback but not defence debuff, NPC Full Auto just does damage, NPC Sniper Rifle just does knockback, etc. Frankly, I haven't looked, but I'd be surprised of NPC revolvers did defence debuff, though I wouldn't put it past Gunslinger burst fire. About the only reason I'd say this feels common is that many enemy groups simply have a minion type with a submachine gun or an assault rifle, and thus access to Burst. That, and a LOT of other things do defence debuff, such as swords and fireman's axes and hatchets, specifically the Banished Pantheon ones. That, and certain enemies come with more regular debuffs, such as Anti-Matter's defence-killer bots or the Soldiers of Rularuu watchers.
All that is to say that while I can see how it might seem instinctive to expect handguns to deal defence debuff, there doesn't seem to be much evidence to suggest it. Unless, of course, I'm missing a lot of stuff, which is well possible.
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I will cede that it wasn't exactly a new mechanic, but the entire design and balance structure was rather new. You can see how convoluted designing the powers and effects got if you check the CoD entries, especially when you consider that it's the first time the mode mechanic (which isn't used outside of Dual Blades; Sniper Rifle simply checks to see if a single power is turned on) was used.
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I'm pretty sure, that is to say almost positive, that Stalkers use the exact same mechanic, or a system underlying what Dual Blades use. Kheldians even before them use a more low-level mechanic of setting the entire player in a specific mode and keying certain powers to have that as "Modes disallowed." I can't say if the particular implementation behind Dual Blades combos is new, but swapping modes around and keying effects and powers off that isn't new. It's been with us since I3 as a special mechanic, and has, in fact, been with us since the game went live, as all powers are disallowed when Disable All mode is on. That is, I'm almost positive, how being dead is treated, as well.
The specific implementation used in Dual Blades IS new, in that it affects the set in a unique and interesting way. I can't say the whole basic concept, however, is being wasted by it being restricted to Dual Blades. What's restricted is that particular implementation, and I don't believe it would fit another set anyway. Not without significant changes to the point where it may as well be something completely different. I would certainly not be impressed with another powerset doing combos the same way.
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Keep in mind that "combos" doesn't mean "firing like crazy". Personally, I think that most of the attacks would only include firing a couple times at most. The cohesiveness and grace of the set would be more involved in the movements of the body itself, getting the pistol in line. Rather than just staying still and firing like crazy (re: assault rifle), the arms would actually be in motion.
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Combos means firing multiple times to achieve a result. That is not something I find I like as a playstyle for Blasters. That's a throwback to Tomb Raider and how she used her handguns - lots of firing, maybe not like crazy, against a tough target. I'm not a fan of that as a thematic. I much prefer a big gun that fires big bullets, even if that doesn't leave that much room in the clip for continuous fire.
You also seem to be thinking of this set as akin to the much-repeated "gun kata," which really isn't representative of how a ranged AT would play. I've thought about how such a set might look and play, and I've come to the conclusion that unless you're designing the set to be used in melee while surrounded by enemies, a martial-arts-influenced "dance of the guns" isn't really appropriate, and such a setup is itself not appropriate to something like a Blaster. Yes, they do fight in melee occasionally, but their design is fighting from range and shooting forward (for the most part), which really does entail standing and shooting ahead. Look at all the current gun users - they are all exclusively point and shoot. It's just sometimes pointing with one gun, sometimes with both and sometimes firing a little and sometimes firing a lot.
If you were to put this on a Melee powerset, like Blasters or Stalkers or what have you, or even on an AT that's only partly melee, like a Dominator, then I could POSSIBLE see it. But Blasters shoot forward, with little room for fancy armwork. The most I could see is a Max Paybe Style spin-and-shoot, but beyond that is the realm of melee.
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Something else to remember is that in 99% of video games, the pistol is also a bad weapon. It deals less damage than pretty much anything else, has worse range, and a smaller clip size than anything except for the crowd clearing guns. Considering this is talking about using a pair of pistols to the exclusion of any other firearm, it's not going to need to be crippled with similar comparisons. I'm also pretty sure that most players wouldn't want to stop to reload after every attack. People don't really want to stop attacking.
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That depends on what you're playing and what you view to be "the gun." Half-Life's handgun, for instance, is weak, but if fired in primary mode is one of the game's most accurate weapon and probably one of the most deadly at long range, especially in single player (where the Magnum doesn't have a scope and the crossbow has travel time). Then, of course, you have the Magnum, which is actually one of the game's strongest, most accurate weapons, limited only by insufficient ammo and a small drum. Unreal Tournament's Enforcer was a powerful weapon at long range AND short range in the same way as Half-Life's handgun, but it was DEADLY when dual-wielded. Unreal Tournament 3's handgun/submachine gun was even more deadly when dual-wielded. Damnation has one crappy revolver, but also has one of the strongest guns in the game in the face of the double-barrelled pistol which does HUGE damage per burst, but only packs two bursts before it has to reload. Pistols are also the only guns usable when climbing. Advent Rising has a multitude of pistols that, like all weapons in the game (including missile launchers) can be dual-wielded. The "basic" handgun that fires .90 calibre armour-piercing, concussion rounds is reasonably deadly in normal fire, but can also be burst-fired to empty entire clips in under two seconds for silly damage. The FUSION pistol is deadly in normal fire mode because it hits like a shotgun, but can also fire fusion GRENADES. The Seeker pistol is almost as strong in normal mode, yet offers an alt fire which consumes five rounds (giving you 4-5 shots per clip) but does STUPID amounts of damage AND bounces between up to four targets, meaning a dual-wield, full-clip burst can put down 20 people. And that's all on top of the fact that handgun draw time in this game is next to instant (VERY obvious in slow motion) whereas all other weapons are exceedingly slow to draw and fire. And that's without even thinking about it too much.
Of course, games that focus on rocket launchers and chainguns will give you an unlimited-ammo, wimpy gun for when you run out, but those aren't really handgun-centric. Pick any game that features handguns as a prominent feature and you'll find they're superior to everything else. Devil May Cry's Dante has a pair of overpowered pistols to his name, and whatever-his-name-is in DMC4 has his double-barrelled revolver the name of which I forgot. True Crime: Streets of LA features the detective with his trusty handguns which start out wimpy, but being his signature weapons can be upgraded to be stronger than M16s.
Maybe my perception is coloured, I don't know. Ever since I played Tomb Raider 2 and discovered that the M16, strong as it may have been, wasn't usable when actually moving (it took time to aim before Lara could start firing) and then later on in Tomb Raider 3 found out about the beauty that is the Desert Eagle, I've been a fan of handguns over rifles and bazookas without a second thought. Their use as weapons on the move, while jumping, hanging off ledges, dive-rolling or somersaulting has always thrilled me as the perfect compliment to an able fighter. In fact, my namesake Scrapper has it in his concept that he has a pair of oversized handguns. I'm a fan, and I've never seen handguns as the weak stuff that you need to either shoot a lot out of, or trickshoot with. The contexts within which guns have always been cool, at least in my experience, have almost always had them overpowered.
In fact, given the fickle nature of plot armour, a bad guy is more likely to die from a single bullet shot to the head than he is to go down from a whole machinegun belt to the chest. That's pretty much why I'd love Handguns to have the PUNCH I expect them to, not be a slow and methodical set like all those games that discount them as the sidearms they actually arc tend to treat them.
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Personally, I think it would work just fine. Blasters don't have to be alpha strike monsters. They operate just fine dishing out consistent damage over a long period of time rather than having discrete spikes of high damage. There's a reason why devices still works even though it lacks Build Up, and it's not that the bombs are supposed to make up for that (they don't in 90% of the situations). Blasters can work perfectly fine with sustained rather than burst damage, especially if they play intelligently.
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I strongly disagree, and happen to feel there is a reason why Devices does NOT work even in the slightest, not counting toe-bombing, or "the bombs" as you put it. The set provides nothing to help the Blaster by little hits at utility and control, gives you plenty of garbage powers that could be combined together and still won't be actually good, and robs you of the kind of up-front punch that keeps a Blaster alive when there isn't a team to back him up. I got the set to 50 and I STILL hate with a passion for all the ways it has made my AR/Dev Blaster suck.
The truth, at least as far as I have seen it, is that Blasters don't GET to dish out consistent damage, because they simply don't have the TIME to do so. Every time I've tried that, I've gotten killed as I'm busying myself dishing out consistent damage and the stuff I should have killed before the battle even started either holds me or outright kills me. By comparison, all of the spike-damage Blasters, even Electrical Melee, have been able to seriously blunt the enemy with a good alpha strike. Sure, they can then afford to deal consistent damage when the biggest dangers are dead and gone, but by that point, it's already a whole different animal.
It's going to take a LOT to convince me that an AT with precisely ZERO staying power can work with slow, consistent damage anywhere near as well as it can work with up-front, spike damage. I'm not immune to reason, let me say that, but I've just been killed by "consistent" damage so, so many more times than it has actually helped me. Pretty much the only reason my AR/Dev Blaster works at anything more than snail's pace are LRM, Time Bomb and Full Auto, with the occasional helping of Surveillance. Anything else is a battle of attrition I just don't have the toughness to endure.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Keep in mind that "combos" doesn't mean "firing like crazy". Personally, I think that most of the attacks would only include firing a couple times at most. The cohesiveness and grace of the set would be more involved in the movements of the body itself, getting the pistol in line. Rather than just staying still and firing like crazy (re: assault rifle), the arms would actually be in motion.
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Combos means firing multiple times to achieve a result. That is not something I find I like as a playstyle for Blasters. That's a throwback to Tomb Raider and how she used her handguns - lots of firing, maybe not like crazy, against a tough target. I'm not a fan of that as a thematic. I much prefer a big gun that fires big bullets, even if that doesn't leave that much room in the clip for continuous fire.
You also seem to be thinking of this set as akin to the much-repeated "gun kata," which really isn't representative of how a ranged AT would play. I've thought about how such a set might look and play, and I've come to the conclusion that unless you're designing the set to be used in melee while surrounded by enemies, a martial-arts-influenced "dance of the guns" isn't really appropriate, and such a setup is itself not appropriate to something like a Blaster. Yes, they do fight in melee occasionally, but their design is fighting from range and shooting forward (for the most part), which really does entail standing and shooting ahead. Look at all the current gun users - they are all exclusively point and shoot. It's just sometimes pointing with one gun, sometimes with both and sometimes firing a little and sometimes firing a lot.
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Actually, I'm thinking of the set in the terms of a cohesive set of 9 discrete powers with a unifying design mechanism rather than "gun-katas" or "gun-fu". For your idea, the unifying design mechanism would be reloading. I'm about as big of a fan of reloading as I am of redraw. I don't really care if the attacks are "gun-fu" or not. I'd much rather have them be interesting visually rather than simply standing around shooting with a break every once in a while to move and possibly reload. If it's that, the entire set's animations could pretty much use a single animation: point and click, possibly with some point and click multiple times.
The problem with bringing up FPS and TPS games is that they're nothing like CoX. You're not going to be able to stop shooting mid animation. Reloading should not be a concern mid combat. The attack for a weapon should not be the same with only minor differences that simple serve to distinguish between "one shot", "two shots", and "a lot of shots". I'd like to actually have a series of largely different attacks that are visually appealing.
Combos don't have to be "dance of guns" either. They can just as easily be a combination of specific trick shots in a specific order that accomplish something special. It makes about as much logical sense as using an attack against the target's armor, a series of attacks that knock the target down, and then another wide attack causing a bleeding effect on the target (Attack Vitals) when no other combination of attacks does. The combos exist to provide a tangible benefit for using animations that mesh well, which I believe attacking with two pistols should do equally well, especially considering your own desire for constant fire from the pistols.
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Personally, I think it would work just fine. Blasters don't have to be alpha strike monsters. They operate just fine dishing out consistent damage over a long period of time rather than having discrete spikes of high damage. There's a reason why devices still works even though it lacks Build Up, and it's not that the bombs are supposed to make up for that (they don't in 90% of the situations). Blasters can work perfectly fine with sustained rather than burst damage, especially if they play intelligently.
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I strongly disagree, and happen to feel there is a reason why Devices does NOT work even in the slightest, not counting toe-bombing, or "the bombs" as you put it. The set provides nothing to help the Blaster by little hits at utility and control, gives you plenty of garbage powers that could be combined together and still won't be actually good, and robs you of the kind of up-front punch that keeps a Blaster alive when there isn't a team to back him up. I got the set to 50 and I STILL hate with a passion for all the ways it has made my AR/Dev Blaster suck.
The truth, at least as far as I have seen it, is that Blasters don't GET to dish out consistent damage, because they simply don't have the TIME to do so. Every time I've tried that, I've gotten killed as I'm busying myself dishing out consistent damage and the stuff I should have killed before the battle even started either holds me or outright kills me. By comparison, all of the spike-damage Blasters, even Electrical Melee, have been able to seriously blunt the enemy with a good alpha strike. Sure, they can then afford to deal consistent damage when the biggest dangers are dead and gone, but by that point, it's already a whole different animal.
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My Elec/Nrg blaster would like to have a word with you if you don't think that consistent damage is effective for Blasters. Both Short Circuit and Ball Lightning are largely DoTs and there isn't a tier 3 blast within the set, which means that she has to survive by doing consistent rather than burst damage. The lack of burst damage is simply mitigated by the fact that, though I can't rely completely on dealing damage to get me through solo encounters, I have to rely on actual control effects. I have to use Tesla Cage, Stun, and my endurance drain intelligently and effectively in order to solo well, which she does. Just because you're specific playstyle wouldn't work well with a consistent damage mechanic doesn't mean that it wouldn't work for other people that are more willing to allow their powersets to dictate play style than their own blanket interpretation of an AT, regardless of power sets.
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It's going to take a LOT to convince me that an AT with precisely ZERO staying power can work with slow, consistent damage anywhere near as well as it can work with up-front, spike damage. I'm not immune to reason, let me say that, but I've just been killed by "consistent" damage so, so many more times than it has actually helped me. Pretty much the only reason my AR/Dev Blaster works at anything more than snail's pace are LRM, Time Bomb and Full Auto, with the occasional helping of Surveillance. Anything else is a battle of attrition I just don't have the toughness to endure.
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The problem you've got is that you automatically assume that Blasters have no staying power. While it's nowhere near the level available to Scrappers or Tankers, it's still better than that available to most Defenders and Controllers, especially when considering IOs and soloing. When using the controls available in both primary and secondary as well as using intelligent tactics that actually capitalize on these powers, you can be quite effective and safe when soloing.
The other problem is that the sets are balanced around being able to solo heroic missions. Trying to drag a Blaster solo through an unyielding or invincible Rikti mission is horrible (and, trust me, I've done this), but that's not what the sets are designed around. They're designed around taking out 3 minions and no lts, 1-2 minions and 1 lt, or 2 lts at once without external help, assuming they're at full health when they start the fight and the enemies are 0-1 level higher than you. That's easy to accomplish without any use of burst damage and all of the other tactics you espouse as completely necessary for a Blaster. Against harder targets, maybe and yes, but against the standard design challenge, not so much.
Without needless quoting, I don't actually like a reload mechanic, myself. The only reason I brought it up was as a first-serve example of something that would work sort of like Claws' Follow Up setup, because I really don't see anything else a pistol user can do to give himself a small damage buff every few second. Of course, hitting and then buffing your next attack's damage doesn't make too much sense in itself, so I'm probably not looking at this with a wide enough perspective. Either way, I am NOT a fan of either the mechanic or the implementation of it I mentioned, so I'm not going to argue for it.
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Combos don't have to be "dance of guns" either. They can just as easily be a combination of specific trick shots in a specific order that accomplish something special. It makes about as much logical sense as using an attack against the target's armor, a series of attacks that knock the target down, and then another wide attack causing a bleeding effect on the target (Attack Vitals) when no other combination of attacks does. The combos exist to provide a tangible benefit for using animations that mesh well, which I believe attacking with two pistols should do equally well, especially considering your own desire for constant fire from the pistols.
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I'm stumped when it comes to what a handguns user can do from range that cannot be described as "fire one gun," "fire both guns" or "fire both guns a lot of times," much in the same way as I can't imagine an assault rifle set consisting of anything other than "fire rifle," "fire rifle some more," "fire rifle lots and lots." Again, that is not to say it's not possible, but I cannot imagine what that would be without getting into the realm of melee guns, which the developers have already shot down repeatedly. You are very much restricted to an animation for aiming the gun and an animation for firing the gun, and the only non-standard animations I can think for it seem pretty silly to me. Look at Archery - the whole set is essentially firing the bow, though I suppose firing the bow UP can be considered reasonably interesting. It's what comes out of it that defines the powers more than anything else, especially considering that so many powers use the same animations.
Still, if you can give me a good example of an interesting set of animations that don't cross over into other functionality, I would be more than willing to consider it. I'm always open to new ideas. I do not, however, see how the set can work well with combos as I cannot see it being more than "point and shoot," which sells itself short on making combos.
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My Elec/Nrg blaster would like to have a word with you if you don't think that consistent damage is effective for Blasters. Both Short Circuit and Ball Lightning are largely DoTs and there isn't a tier 3 blast within the set, which means that she has to survive by doing consistent rather than burst damage.
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You're selling your Blaster short. Just because Electrical Blast doesn't have a strong attack chain doesn't mean the Blaster doesn't have good Burst damage. In fact, of all the set I've played, and I've played everything other than Mental Manipulation to at least mid-level, Energy Manipulation is by FAR the biggest single-target damage dealer. I used to tell stories of what a combo of Aim + Build Up + Bone Smasher + Energy Punch could do to a boss. I have an Electric/Electric Blaster, and for the longest time I was wondering why people were saying Electric Blast was bad for damage. It took me a while to realise just HOW much of my damage was coming from Electrical Manipulation, between Charged Brawl, Havoc Punch and Thunder Strike. I once put two Scrappers to shame with that Blaster by taking out a boss pretty much by myself while the rest of the team (about four people) sturggled with the other one.
What Electrical Blast lacks, pretty much every secondary other than Devices and, to a certain extent, Fire Manipulation, makes up for. And even then, when slotted for damage, a combo of Aim + Build Up + Ball Lightning + Short Circuit can be a pretty effective alpha strike. I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong. Obviously you're doing all right. Mine does pretty well, as well, but you still have Aim in the powerset, and you still have a Snipe. That DOES make up for lost damage in sets without a Power Burst clone.
There's also the fact that relying on control powers has a rather serious overhead - animation time and cost. This is a cancer I barely cured my AR/Dev/Munitions Blaster from. He ended up with as much control as a Controller. Beanbag, Taser, Cryo Freeze Ray, Web Grenade, Caltrops, Sleep Gas Grenade... I could, if I were so inclined, control a great many enemies a lot of the time. The downside to this is that just these controls in themselves formed a full "attack chain," leaving precious little time and energy for me to do what a Blaster is supposed to do - kill stuff. Trying to out-control enemies is a losing battle, that much I've been burned by again and again. Control helps mitigate incoming damage, but that only buys time, and at best only a little time. The point, in the end, is to still kill the enemies before they kill you, and that control doesn't come for free.
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The problem you've got is that you automatically assume that Blasters have no staying power. While it's nowhere near the level available to Scrappers or Tankers, it's still better than that available to most Defenders and Controllers, especially when considering IOs and soloing. When using the controls available in both primary and secondary as well as using intelligent tactics that actually capitalize on these powers, you can be quite effective and safe when soloing.
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Blasters have SOME staying power against MOST things. The problem is that the things you need the most staying power against are the things kill you before you can blink. An able Blaster can dodge death at the hands of the Nemesis army and an observant one can play the Rikti for fools, but a Gunslinger, or a Bane Spider Executioner at the wrong time is often a very, very serious problem. And that's before we get into Zeus Class Titans, Chief Mesmerists or the Soldiers of Rularuu.
And I would argue about whether Blasters have more staying power than a Defender or a Controller. Unlike them, Blasters have nothing to protect themselves with but only temporary control, whereas a controller can incapacitate entire spawns and the (right) Defender can cripple his opponents beyond the ability to retaliate. I still remember a duo of Rad/Rad Defenders back a while ago who may as well have had God Mode turned on. I cannot, however, speak with any certainty on the matter, as I've not played either Controllers or Defenders... Pretty much at all. Only ever seen them play and spoken with friends who played them.
I want to bring up Dominators, but I probably shouldn't, as my experience with them is only from I15's Beta and only low level. From my experience, however, a low-level I15 Dominator is MORE survivable than a low-level Blaster against comparable odds despite a significantly lower amount of hit points. The Dominator has comparable, at times even superior damage, yet one which comes at less redundancy of powers AND with an entire primary designed to keep you safe by preventing enemies from attacking you AND Domination's increase in that control on top of it all. If anything, Dominators now feel how I always wished Blasters felt, or at least thereabout - HARD punch backed up by the ability to protect yourself.
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The other problem is that the sets are balanced around being able to solo heroic missions. Trying to drag a Blaster solo through an unyielding or invincible Rikti mission is horrible (and, trust me, I've done this), but that's not what the sets are designed around.
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Oh, I completely understand. I've never felt there was any point to pushing the difficulty beyond perhaps Tenacious. Interestingly, it's not the added enemies there that pose the biggest problems, but specific enemies themselves, a well as the often occurrences of extra aggro (not always from carelessness - ambushes do that a lot) which pretty much all other damage-centric ATs can absorb, but Blasters simply lack the staying power to do so. And that's not something burst damage can solve, either, as it's aggro after the fact.
The simple fact is that the few things that HAVE to die RIGHT NOW are also the things that CANNOT be killed right now, which makes playing a Blaster effectively an exercise in conundrum.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm just about the biggest Dual Blades fan there is, and personally I wouldn't see Dual Pistols having Combos as belittling Dual Blades in anyway. Dual Blades would still be the only melee combo set, Dual Pistols would just become it's sister set of sorts by becoming the Ranged combo set. I would actually prefer Dual Pistols use Combos rather than this toggle system. I just think the entire concept of using toggles to change your ammo type is a really neat idea, so I've been following it.