Assault Rifle suggestion

Figured I may as well lay this out while I was contemplating Devices in my previous thread: how would you feel about turning Buckshot into a single-target, Superior/Extreme damage attack at close range, similar to Power Burst, Blaze and Bitter Ice Blast?

I'm going to look at this from two sides.

On the practical side, I would say Assault Rifle could do with some more single-target damage. The whole set has all of two single-target damage attack - Burst and Slug. It has Sniper Rifle, yes, but that is highly unreliable in most situations. It used to have Ignite as a single-damage-equivalent, but with its recharge increase, it hasn't been able to patch things up as well as it used to. Beyond that, though, the set has FOUR area attacks and a control power. Personally, of all the are attacks Assault Rifle has, Buckshot is the one I end up using the least, partly because of its short range, partly because of its crappy damage. Full Auto gets a lot of use for obvious reasons, Flamethrower has a very wide cone and M30 is good shelling enemies from afar. But it has been my experience that, even on a BIG team, I rarely get the opportunity to go through my entire arsenal, unless I'm the only Blaster on a team of Tankers or something. By the time I get down the chain to Buckshot, most of the things are either dead or scattering about, meaning it's better to hunt them down with Burst and Slug.

On the conceptual side, one thing has always bothered me about Buckhot - it doesn't actually behave like a buckshot should. I don't mean this just in terms of realistic realism - even just about every other game treats Buckshot slightly differently. The thing is, a buckshot shouldn't spread as much as this one does. Hell, ours goes almost 45 degrees off centre. Secondly, buckshot isn't really effective at long range or without enough pellets hitting the target, especially if you're shooting at something big and sturdy, like a man wearing body armour (as opposed to, say, small birds). Practically speaking, about the most effective I've seen a buckshot ever be and what has always felt the most satisfying has been not trying to spread the pellets among a group of targets, but rather unloading a whole shell, ideally TWO shells and both barrels, into a single target, dealing massive, massive damage. In fact, I made a career in both Half-Life and Half-Life 2 taking out soldiers with a double-barrel shot of the combat shot gun, which I'd pick over ANYTHING else at close range.

I understand that's something that's not likely to just happen, and I doubt the powers that be will ever consider it, but I do believe such a change would help Assault Rifle tremendously. And I do believe Assault Rifle could use at least a little help.

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It would be a reasonable change, and logically laid out. But it falls into the category of being a pretty major change, which the devs are reluctant to do (at best). It would also lessen the Assault Rifle's AoE ability, which is one of the things that makes up for it's relative mediocrity otherwise.

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Sam,
I'd rather keep the extra cone. The lack of an easy to use 3rd strong ST attack, is part of the cost AR gives for the AOE ability.

Mind you it does have a strong 3rd ST attack own version in ignite, but that has tactical limitations.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

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It would be a reasonable change, and logically laid out. But it falls into the category of being a pretty major change, which the devs are reluctant to do (at best). It would also lessen the Assault Rifle's AoE ability, which is one of the things that makes up for it's relative mediocrity otherwise.

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Yeah, I'm running against the problem that this will NOT happen under any circumstances, but aside from that...

I'm not sure Buckshot is such a great help in AoE capacity, at least not in my experience. Yes, it has a somewhat large cone (not as big as most Blaster cones, but still) and it does SOME damage, but... Honestly, when the set has Flamethrower, Full Auto and M30, I never really GET to Buckshot, especially since all the other AoEs work from fairly far away, whereas Buckshot is exclusively close range.

Granted, I'm counting Full Auto as another AoE, whereas I don't count nukes for other sets, but that's largely because Full Auto can be used every battle and doesn't impose a mandatory rest break, so in practice... It is. The whole set feels like it was designed for forced teaming, which is something Blasters haven't been consigned to for several years now.

Of course, I'm not looking to make Assault Rifle a single-target kind or anything even remotely close. I just want the set to have tools to deal with the stuff that kills the most Blasters every year - bosses. AoE doesn't really help with them in the slightest. Not even for Master Illusionists.

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Mind you it does have a strong 3rd ST attack own version in ignite, but that has tactical limitations.

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When it was just tactical limitations, I was inclined to agree. But with what recharge it has now (and STILL that stupid 3-second cast for no apparent reason), it's actually worse than Sniper Rifle in the role of third single-target attack. Heck, Sniper Rifle takes as long to fire and recharges faster

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Remember, if you plan on running with a team a lot you don't have to pick up every single power in your primary either. Shorten your attack chain and use those extra power picks to take Leadership, which will help your team more anyway. Then you won't feel like you have powers that are going unused.

I don't see any change to Assault Rifle being necessary. Sure, Buckshot doesn't do exactly what real buckshot would do, but remember these are just names. Haymaker isn't really anything like a real haymaker either. It's just a designation for a power that can really be defined as anything that you "the player" want.

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My friend runs a AR/Storm Corrutor, and I've gotta say he is impressive. I'm not sure how his Buckshot is slotted, but he's gotten the range beefed up to be just plain absurd. I know he has a Chance for Smashing proc from whichever KB set on his slug, turning that into a beast of a move. He skipped out on both Flamethrower and Ignite.

I see him just rip targets apart regularly. Burst, Slug, Buckshot, Beanbag here and there, Snipe if the opportunity presents itself (Calibrated Accuracy on that making it almost never miss). For AoE work, Full Auto and M30 are enough, and usually the opening on a wave following the Snipe and a Freezing Rain. Most groups won't survive long after that.

So, I essence, from watching the set in action, I don't see much problem with it. In fact, it makes me quite jealous.

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The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)

Virtue Forever.

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I see him just rip targets apart regularly. Burst, Slug, Buckshot, Beanbag here and there, Snipe if the opportunity presents itself (Calibrated Accuracy on that making it almost never miss). For AoE work, Full Auto and M30 are enough, and usually the opening on a wave following the Snipe and a Freezing Rain. Most groups won't survive long after that.

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AoE destruction is one of the things Assault Rifle is not just good, but the BEST at, that much I cannot disagree with. However, it's when it comes to nasty things like, say, a Hercules Titan, a Cheif Soldeir/Mentalist, Greater Devoured and so forth that Assault Rifle really hurts more than any other set, with the possible exception of Electrical Blast, though Assault Rifle tends to suffer more due to many things resisting Lethal damage. Surprisingly many, as I'm finding out through Surveillance.

What Assault Rifle is even worse at is Elite Bosses. Yes, technically I just took out Ghost Widow (EB) solo with my 50 Assault Rifle/Devices/Munitions Blaster thanks to a forest of Trip Mines and copious uses of Surveillance and Targeting Drone, but that was also done thanks to four purples, one of them medium, and two reds, as well as another red that dropped off a Tarantula, I think. That's a one-off event. By comparison, something as fairly common as a Gunslinger boss is hell and high water because they deal MASSIVE amounts of damage and, lacking concentrated single-target damage of any sort (to say nothing of sleep and hold protection), are too hard to kill before that damage becomes a terminal problem. In fact, I'm going to go up to Malta RIGHT NOW to test just how horrible the recent AI upgrade has made them.

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Just to be clear: Malta is hell. I'm honestly not sure how people can deal with them period. I have yet to survive an encounter with them.

But, anyways, I see your point. On our Corruptors, my friend and I have taken down EBs simply by virtue of tactics and synergy, less due to damage output and more due to combined forms of control. Against the average mooks, up to and including lower-end Bosses, I've seen AR to be godly. Against higher-end Bosses, EBs, and heaven forbid AVs, not so much. I never saw a problem with it because I attributed it to the game telling you "You can't handle this alone". Frankly, soloing an EB may be possible, but I don't believe they are meant to be soloed.

And as for Malta...Again, I'll get back to you when don't wipe as soon as they look at me :P

EDIT: As for Rikti bosses, don't they have higher Lethal resistance and/or defense?

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The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)

Virtue Forever.

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I see him just rip targets apart regularly. Burst, Slug, Buckshot, Beanbag here and there, Snipe if the opportunity presents itself (Calibrated Accuracy on that making it almost never miss). For AoE work, Full Auto and M30 are enough, and usually the opening on a wave following the Snipe and a Freezing Rain. Most groups won't survive long after that.

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AoE destruction is one of the things Assault Rifle is not just good, but the BEST at, that much I cannot disagree with. However, it's when it comes to nasty things like, say, a Hercules Titan, a Cheif Soldeir/Mentalist, Greater Devoured and so forth that Assault Rifle really hurts more than any other set, with the possible exception of Electrical Blast, though Assault Rifle tends to suffer more due to many things resisting Lethal damage. Surprisingly many, as I'm finding out through Surveillance.

What Assault Rifle is even worse at is Elite Bosses. Yes, technically I just took out Ghost Widow (EB) solo with my 50 Assault Rifle/Devices/Munitions Blaster thanks to a forest of Trip Mines and copious uses of Surveillance and Targeting Drone, but that was also done thanks to four purples, one of them medium, and two reds, as well as another red that dropped off a Tarantula, I think. That's a one-off event. By comparison, something as fairly common as a Gunslinger boss is hell and high water because they deal MASSIVE amounts of damage and, lacking concentrated single-target damage of any sort (to say nothing of sleep and hold protection), are too hard to kill before that damage becomes a terminal problem. In fact, I'm going to go up to Malta RIGHT NOW to test just how horrible the recent AI upgrade has made them.

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The biggest problem I had with my AR blaster was soloing The Red and the Black arc. Vanguard bosses were much harder than any malta.

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Not a terrible idea there Sam, but at the same time, I love the massive AoE of AR. Yea the ST is a little anemic after the Ignite nerf, but there's really nothing better for AoE (some will argue Fire, but for me: 3+no crash mini nuke >>> 3+crash nuke).

I don't solo my blasters, so I prefer the AoE. But I could see the utility of a third, heavy ST non interruptible. I'd be willing to lose Beanbag for it

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My friend runs a AR/Storm Corrutor

He skipped out on ... Flamethrower

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Not to derail: Aside from the long cast time, your friend is a crazy man for skipping Flamethrower, especially on a /Storm. /Storm is champ at positioning the enemy, and AR/ loves to have people in it's cones and AoEs. The two are made for each other. Flamethrower is a huge damage dealer, especially with the new front-loading.

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I'm not sure Buckshot is such a great help in AoE capacity, at least not in my experience. Yes, it has a somewhat large cone (not as big as most Blaster cones, but still) and it does SOME damage, but... Honestly, when the set has Flamethrower, Full Auto and M30...

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M30 does the same damage as Buckshot but with TWICE the recharge time and nearly double the animation time. For added lulz, it also has nearly three times the knockback magnitude causing greater spread and reduction in followup AoE efficiency than Buckshot.

If anything contributes the least to AR's AoE damage output, it is M30. Granted, it has twice the range and you can hit 16 targets max, vs. Buckshot's 10 but if you've got 16 huddled that close you better be hitting them from the air with M30 or have someone -KB immobilizing them or... there might be tears.

Still... I'd rather have all those AoEs, even M30. If I want a single-targetter, I'll pick something else. My 2-bits anyway.

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Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer

Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!

People who get tossed by my M30 are dead before they hit the ground.
Yes please to a shotgun that works like a shotgun and not like a punt gun or some [censored].

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I've played 2 AR/ blasters to 50 and never needed Buckshot in its current form. I'd be supportive of a change to a ST attack.

I definately could see a use for it on my AR/EM. Not sure I'd want it on my AR/Dev, but who knows...depends on how good it is.

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-Largo

Founder of A.G.O.N.Y. Supergroup on Victory
Member of Thought Sanctum VG on Victory
Member of St0rm Batallion SG on Guardian

I think part of the problem is, what exactly would make it differant than Slug? As it stands, a sound effect. That's it.

For other Blasts, using Elec as an example, this is easier. Lightning Bolt is basically just a bigger Charged Bolt, only i use two hands and fire two streams of electricity. Differant powers, differant look, the point gets across.

For AR, the animations are basically all the same. So if Buckshot was a ST attack, it would be indistiguishable from Slug. There are only so many ways you can fire a bullet and make it unique, and every power needs to be unique in some way.

That being said, the only other way to make it unique is it's effect. KB works nicely for the concept of Buckshot, but again would make it identical to Slug. Can't give it a Stun because Beanbag has that covered. There is honestly nothing that you can do to Buckshot to have it be thematic and unique, other than a cone. The only possible option is -Resistance, but I think having that alongside a -Defense would make the set a tad too ridiculous. Maybe a -Defense, along with the KB...

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The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)

Virtue Forever.

Yes, I realise I'm replying to myself. This will be a compound post, so bear with me.

AkuTenshiiZero
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But, anyways, I see your point. On our Corruptors, my friend and I have taken down EBs simply by virtue of tactics and synergy, less due to damage output and more due to combined forms of control. Against the average mooks, up to and including lower-end Bosses, I've seen AR to be godly. Against higher-end Bosses, EBs, and heaven forbid AVs, not so much. I never saw a problem with it because I attributed it to the game telling you "You can't handle this alone". Frankly, soloing an EB may be possible, but I don't believe they are meant to be soloed.

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That's a lot of what masks the problem, in my opinion. Most ATs other than Blasters, and even some Blaster combos, can make up for lack of single-target damage by other debilitating effects or, as is the case for my Electric/Electric Blaster, with heavy-hitter secondary attacks. Not all sets have those, however. Devices, chiefly, does not, nor does Fire Manipulation have many (it's still more AoE) for example. From playing with it, especially solo, I can say that I can attribute my victories more on Devices and ESPECIALLY on Munitions than I can on Assault Rifle. Comparatively, my Archery/Devices Blaster does significantly better, both through Aim and through the lovely Blazing Arrow. It also manages to one-up full auto AND keep two of the three remaining AoEs in Assault Rifle almost the same.

Zem__
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If anything contributes the least to AR's AoE damage output, it is M30. Granted, it has twice the range and you can hit 16 targets max, vs. Buckshot's 10 but if you've got 16 huddled that close you better be hitting them from the air with M30 or have someone -KB immobilizing them or... there might be tears.

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I'd be perfectly fine with replacing M30 with it, myself. I'm WELL aware of the cost, though given how rarely I get past Full Auto -> Flamethrower to even GET to Buckshot/M30, recharge is largely irrelevant. About the only reason I pick M30 over Buckshot a lot of the time is because I tend to stay farther away from enemies to facilitate Full Auto and keep my Auto Turret from engaging until I'm ready, so it's easier to fire a grenade long-range than it is to fly in and use Buckshot at short range. Dropping either, however, will do, as M30 seems to do even LESS damage than buckshot.

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Still... I'd rather have all those AoEs, even M30. If I want a single-targetter, I'll pick something else. My 2-bits anyway.

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I don't specifically need single-target damage as such, but I DO need a Blaster primary that can handle bosses, at least, which, indirectly, requires single-target damage. I don't really need Assault Rifle to beat the single-target kings out there, but I'd like it to have SOME leg to stand on. The bad thing is, even a single-target-mostly Blaster set can deal with solo spawns of minions and lieutenants, and how much easier or harder that is is arguable. An AoE-mostly set, however, though it won't have THAT much more of a leg up on minions and lieutenants, will always hurt against bosses.

AkuTenshiiZero
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I think part of the problem is, what exactly would make it differant than Slug? As it stands, a sound effect. That's it.

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Well, how much different is Power Burst from Power Blast, really? And how much different is Blaze from Fire Blast? Or Snap Shot from Aimed Shot from Ranged Shot? Of course, I'm not saying I want it to be a second Slug, but there is precedent. And even right now. Buckshot doesn't really look all that different from slug. It actually uses the same animation.

But OK, let's look at other things we can do with this. How about turning it into a downsized version of Head Splitter? Make it a VERY narrow cone (how much spread does a shotgun have over 20 feet, anyway?) and up its damage to upper-border Heavy (as opposed to the Extreme I was suggesting before). It still won't act exactly like a shotgun, but it will act A LOT MORE like a shotgun by keeping to a narrow cone and hitting HARD at short range. It's stiff different, it's highly effective against clumped-up enemies AND it gets to keep some AoE potential.

Buckshot is currently set as a 40-foot, 30 degrees arc dealing 0.91 scale damage to each target. So what if we made it a 20-30 foot, 20 degrees arc, 1.64-1.8 scale damage power? It will be different enough from Slug, still provide strong single-target damage AND give the opportunity to the accurate to sew in some very serious AoE damage. I was initially looking at Power Burst's 2.12 scale damage, but if this is a narrow cone, I can deal with damage slightly above or below that of Slug.

Additionally
Suppose we keep Buckshot where it is and doing what it does. What about balancing it like a single-target power? See, most powers have a damage scale to cost ratio of about 0.190-0.200 scale damage per units of endurance for single-target powers. Burst is a little more efficient, but by and large most powers will be around 0.197. AoE powers, however, vary depending on their size and other characteristics. Buckshot is at around 0.089 scale damage per unit of endurance, more than TWICE as expensive as Slug, whereas M30 has a ratio of around 0.059, which is a little better than half of that of Buckshot and almost a quarter of that of Slug.

Personally, I've taken to using Buckshot as a third single-target attack, but IT COSTS! A LOT! A lot for what it does, anyway. Fact of the matter is, when the situation is right for a good AoE, that good AoE is Full Auto or, failing that, Flamethrower. Rarely have I found a good AoE opportunity and thought to myself "Oh, hey, that's the perfect opportunity to use Buckshot!" Inevitably, I end up using it on either a single enemy, or when I happen to catch two enemies standing in a line, and it takes at least three enemies for the damage done to offset the cost.

So, how about just balancing the power as a single-target one, or at least slashing its cost to where just two targets offset the investment? I won't be PERFECT, but it will give the sent another quasi-single-target attack in actual practice, which should actually help a lot. Plus, being the apparently intended king of AoE, wouldn't it make sense for Assault Rifle's AoEs to be a little favoured?

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I'd be more in favor of seeing Ignite changed. Ignite being made into a short range, 20-40ft, single target DoT would be very favorable to me personally.

Perhaps now that it's recharge has been corrected and it can't be spammed as it could be, some others might come around to this.

I've always thought it would be cool to simply light up a single target, throw on the melt armor like animation on them, and let them burn for a good bit. Take away the complication of the power and just let us use it as a nice single target, fire damaging attack.

If I was able to drag and drop down a wall of fire, or actually block most doorways it'd be different, but a 4 foot radius with a 3s animation, pfft...

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Sam,
I'd rather keep the extra cone. The lack of an easy to use 3rd strong ST attack, is part of the cost AR gives for the AOE ability.

Mind you it does have a strong 3rd ST attack own version in ignite, but that has tactical limitations.

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The loss of Aim should cover the cost itself imo.

Doing away with the "tactical limitations" of Ignite would be a fair deal for the set.

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I'd be more in favor of seeing Ignite changed. Ignite being made into a short range, 20-40ft, single target DoT would be very favorable to me personally.
Perhaps now that it's recharge has been corrected and it can't be spammed as it could be, some others might come around to this.
I've always thought it would be cool to simply light up a single target, throw on the melt armor like animation on them, and let them burn for a good bit. Take away the complication of the power and just let us use it as a nice single target, fire damaging attack.
If I was able to drag and drop down a wall of fire, or actually block most doorways it'd be different, but a 4 foot radius with a 3s animation, pfft...

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See, that's a good idea. This I like. As a general thing, I've never really been able to Ignite more than one person with it consistently, even with the help of a Controller to keep enemies pinned down. The radius on the power is just so small that enemies have to be standing literally next to each other for it to clip them, and while that's achievable, to my experience it is highly uncommon. And, realistically speaking, even IF a big bunch of enemies were somehow immobilized next to each other, I'd still rather do Full Auto + Flamethrower because those would STILL catch more people. Ignite, in my experience at least, has only ever been good for two things - hurting tough enemies and hurting Lethal-resistant enemies.

For this reason, I'd actually really like to see it turned into a souped-up version of Incinerate. Granted, at its current damage level of around 5.0 scale (by my calculations), it would be hideously overpowered, so it might need to be toned down or spaced out, but honestly, I would really love it if this power were made into a single-target heavy-hitter. Then I guess we could leave Buckshot alone, even if I don't like how it doesn't behave anything like a shotgun shell.

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I would be against a change to ignite, because it is also an area denial tool, used in tandem with caltrops.

Used when baddies are right around the corner, or right on the other side of the doorway, denying them the ability to hit you while burning them is a guilty pleasure of mine on my AR/Dev. 2 targetted AoE's is very powerful for a blaster. Dont give that up.

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-Largo

Founder of A.G.O.N.Y. Supergroup on Victory
Member of Thought Sanctum VG on Victory
Member of St0rm Batallion SG on Guardian

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I would be against a change to ignite, because it is also an area denial tool, used in tandem with caltrops.

Used when baddies are right around the corner, or right on the other side of the doorway, denying them the ability to hit you while burning them is a guilty pleasure of mine on my AR/Dev. 2 targetted AoE's is very powerful for a blaster. Dont give that up.

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Ah, having two "location based" AoE's on a AR/Dev is a nice trick. Using LoS to toss trops and a ignite patch "around" walls to cover small doorways without retaliation is nice...

I'm not really fan though of the thematic AR/Dev pairing in that it's only real designed synergy seemed to be with web nade + ignite; making for a pseudo extreme damage immobilize.

Just slap some energy damage onto web grenade; call it shock web or laser wire, or lethal damage; razor wire or tangle web, and convert ignite into a quick, short range, high DoT fire attack.

If you want to set up area denial you can still throw down trops and trip mines at the door, remain in complete safety, and still dish out a lot of damage without being retaliated against. While those using AR without devices, or with, can use ignite more freely as a ST damage dealer that it sorely needs without any gimmicks attached.

So, yeah, I'd definately vote to give up one ghetto area denial trick for that, especially when an AR/Dev still has plenty of safety/tricks in stealth, trops, and mines.

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So, yeah, I'd definately vote to give up one ghetto area denial trick for that, especially when an AR/Dev still has plenty of safety/tricks in stealth, trops, and mines.

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I didn't want to come out and say this, but yes, I agree completely. I'm a big fan of Ignite, but its use is very tangental, especially now with that recharge. I'd much sooner have it be single-target heavy-damage, balanced by taking a long time to burn things, than have it in its current fiddly use. It's good, make no mistake, but Assault Rifle already has enough fiddly powers.

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<QR>

I am all over the 'change Ignite to a ranged ST DoT'. Ignite just doesn't do it for me any more, as much as I used to love it. If it had the (completely nonsensical) KB that Bonfire has, it would work better as area denial. But even then, I'd rather have the straight up damage in a fight. Plus it means you can leave my Buckshot the hell alone

/signed

(Though changing a power so radically has about a 0.02% chance of happening)

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Have to agree in general. I love Ignite, I really do. I used to have my whole build centred around it. I always found it a chore to use, however, only somewhat manageable most of the time. It manages to be both too powerful when used right (yes, I firmly believe that) and not powerful enough in that it's not very easy to use. Plus, now that it's been slowed down, I keep ending up forgetting about it, because it also comes with the added overhead of having to immobilize stuff I otherwise may not have.

It's cool, but I think the set would be cooler with another single-target attack. I've played a few Blaster sets, and this one always felt like it was struggling more than the rest.

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