Issue 15 on the Training Room today
By
AlienOne,
Posted on: 2009-05-27 10:41 in The Global Training Room Test Server
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I'll just be thankful for what I get, instead of playing Oliver Twist.
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So what you're saying is that instead of expecting the devs to live up to the same expectations they've established for 14 issues, you'll subscribe instead to the "whatever you want to give us is what we deserve" school of thinking? Sorry, I don't go there.
If you want to placidly submit to being given whatever scraps the devs want to give you without a word of protest, more power to you. But if it's being Oliver Twist to expect the devs to live up to what they have established as the norm, then just call me Ollie.
The Twilight Avengers, Guild Leader
@Wulf 1 or @Wulf 2
www.twilightavengers.com
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I'll just be thankful for what I get, instead of playing Oliver Twist.
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So what you're saying is that instead of expecting the devs to live up to the same expectations they've established for 14 issues, you'll subscribe instead to the "whatever you want to give us is what we deserve" school of thinking? Sorry, I don't go there.
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I think what I'm trying to say (and I'm pretty sure it's what I'm trying to say, since I'm me 
) is that I have realistic expectations given the current development schedule that has been announced.
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I'll just be thankful for what I get, instead of playing Oliver Twist.
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So what you're saying is that instead of expecting the devs to live up to the same expectations they've established for 14 issues, you'll subscribe instead to the "whatever you want to give us is what we deserve" school of thinking? Sorry, I don't go there.
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I think what I'm trying to say (and I'm pretty sure it's what I'm trying to say, since I'm me ) is that I have realistically expectations given the current development schedule that has been announced.
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And I can agree with that. My point is that the schedule was rushed to the point that no one's reasonable expecations were met for what an issue should be based on previous iterations. They would have been better off to delay an issue than force it through in this condition.
I'm not questioning the decisions they made based on their current developement schedule...I'm questioning the decision-making behind the development schedule itself. It appears that this one, for one reason or another, wasn't thought through very well. That's something I would have expected from the former creative team....not this one.
The Twilight Avengers, Guild Leader
@Wulf 1 or @Wulf 2
www.twilightavengers.com
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Aw, there there. This came on the heels of Issue 14, was supposed to be released earlier (but delayed thanks to MA changes), and precedes Issue 16 (which will probably be the expansion). Frankly I'm surprised people were expecting more for something that is crammed in between two big releases.
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I do understand all of that.
And frankly, if the sneak-peak hadn't hinted at more, I probably would not be this disappointed... maybe. 
I hope the new SF/TF are something spectacular, because otherwise, there is not enough new stuff to keep me motivated to log in until GR comes out... and I'll have to find another game to supplement my waning CoX playtime.
Now GR, once it comes out (which I'm guesstimating at Oct/Nov), should fix that, if we get the engine overhaul I'm expecting.
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if we get the engine overhaul I'm expecting.
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See, there's the problem. You're setting expectations and setting yourself up for disappointment. 
The Players' Guide to the Cities
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if we get the engine overhaul I'm expecting.
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See, there's the problem. You're setting expectations and setting yourself up for disappointment.
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Yeah, NCSoft doesn't throw huge piles of money at stable online games.
That would almost make sense...
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if we get the engine overhaul I'm expecting.
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See, there's the problem. You're setting expectations and setting yourself up for disappointment.
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To an extent, you're potentially right.
However, I have this particular expectation because it really is the one card they can play that has the greatest chance to ensure this game's long-term survival.
All the upcoming direct competitors will have more advanced engines that allow for things like (most importantly) power-customization. It's practically the battle-cry of New Jack Inc's product, in addition to one of the most universally desired features here.
Despite the occasional facepalm-inducing decisions made by our dev team, I have to belive that they are aware of that, and are taking measures to address it. The paid expansion is the most logical place for implementation of this overhaul.
If the devs don't realize this, then the game we love is in big, big trouble...
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if we get the engine overhaul I'm expecting.
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See, there's the problem. You're setting expectations and setting yourself up for disappointment.
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Yeah, NCSoft doesn't throw huge piles of money at stable online games.
That would almost make sense...
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Stable or otherwise, I'm not sure if 150k subscribers is something you throw a lot of money at. I doubt we will see a new engine. A new engine would allow so much more to be added that you may as well just build cox2.
That said, I think they will find a way to give us limited power customization with the existing engine. And yes I've read the past posts on this subject. It won't be customization like making lightning come from your hand and then changing it to come from your eyes and changing it from a st attack to an aoe. Rather it will probably just be color change options. Which would still likely appease many of the people asking for it.
I have confirmation from a couple of my friends who have seen advertisements where they live for the "posi team" looking for game engine developers... Although this *may* or may not mean there is an overhaul in the game engine, I do think this confirms that they have at least looked into the possibility of it in the future, for whatever reasons they may have for future releases or games.
"The One"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
It's really no big deal for me about the size of i15.
Had the Devs had everything in that they were going to have for i13, it would have been a long time inbetween for issues (what, about a half a year to almost one year, give or take).
There would have been a lot of content, both by the team and by the players for us to go through, for sure.
But people would be rioting at the gates about the delay. It was bad enough as it was when Mission Architect was going to be delayed to i14, let alone when people complained when there wasn't going to be three expansions last year.
Now we are approaching the middle of the year, and we are going to have two issues done by then, and we have at least another Issue coming as well as the expansion.
I'm thinking the issue that comes out around the time of the expansion will be like Issue 6, and possibly 7, which tied in with City of Villains going Gold (updating some graphics on the 'Blue Side', among other things).
Btw, the last time I noted that an expansion was seemingly a small one, Positron said that there was a lot of under-the-hood that went into that issue (i12). I wouldn't doubt there's some stuff being put into the game that is going to show in later issues.
Also, the game is now, according to my TR launcher, is 2.8 Gs.
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if we get the engine overhaul I'm expecting.
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See, there's the problem. You're setting expectations and setting yourself up for disappointment.
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Yeah, NCSoft doesn't throw huge piles of money at stable online games.
That would almost make sense...
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Stable or otherwise, I'm not sure if 150k subscribers is something you throw a lot of money at.
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150,000 more than Tabula Rasa has, and how much money did that cost?
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I'm sure the TF and SF are both very neat and enjoyable, but one TF and one SF do not an Issue make.
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I'm with this guy. Why bother calling it an 'Issue'?
Are the Column and Council going to shoot it out in the streets again?
Will the Reichman invade Atlas Park or Mercy Isle?
Is it going to start raining?
This so called Issue is just sad...not even worth putting on the test server...just release the dang thing and movie on to the next...hopefully Content rich issue....this is like opening pizza box only to find half a slize in there...Boooooo !!
CoX for life !!
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Blah.
Are the Column and Council going to shoot it out in the streets again?
Blah Blah
Blah Blah Blah 
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Sorry only focused on one thing here.
[Insert divine thingy of choice here], I [WARNING EXPLICIT LYRICS] hope so!!!
I loved that. It was one of the most fun times I had as a hero... and I would enjoy it as a villain too. After all nobody likes Nazis and if they scuff the boots or so much as wrinkle the clothing of my villains... or even just look at them funny... that's all the excuse they'd need for some good, old-fashioned Nazi-stompin' time. 
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if we get the engine overhaul I'm expecting.
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See, there's the problem. You're setting expectations and setting yourself up for disappointment.
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Yeah, NCSoft doesn't throw huge piles of money at stable online games.
That would almost make sense...
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Stable or otherwise, I'm not sure if 150k subscribers is something you throw a lot of money at.
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150,000 more than Tabula Rasa has, and how much money did that cost?
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Citing one failed project and waste of resources is hardly what I'd call evidence to support possibly wasting it again.
Seriously think about it. How much would an engine overhaul cost? How many additional subscribers would be required to offset that?
Right now we have CO soon to be release. DCUO sometime next year and Marvel Online reannounced. That is 2 very name brand competitors and one not so name brand, but highly focused on giving players everything CoX has failed to deliver and marketing it as such.
We all know that as the tide comes in it raises all ships, but in all fairness I think this is "The Coming Storm" that CoX has talked about for years lol. This game holds at about 120-150k subscribers in a competition-less environment.
While a new engine may or may not be necessary to compete with the new entrants I think it would be much better to put those resources into CoX2. People speak very highly of Posi and crew, surely they have the ability and know how to make cox2?
That is only talking about direct competitors and speaks nothing of the other new entrants in the MMO market that are offering as fast (or much faster) game play than CoX, which this game has always been near the forefront of compared to other western MMO's.
It also speaks nothing of this game's age. Sure they are plenty of long lived MMO's, but most of them had a heck of a lot more subs at their prime than CoX. Now they are operating at 1/10th or 1/5th of their heyday and still have similar numbers to CoX.
This isn't a doom call, as CoX is still going to be running for some time. It is just a reality call. "The Coming Storm" is on its way, it is just in real life rather than in game.
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I have confirmation from a couple of my friends who have seen advertisements where they live for the "posi team" looking for game engine developers... Although this *may* or may not mean there is an overhaul in the game engine, I do think this confirms that they have at least looked into the possibility of it in the future, for whatever reasons they may have for future releases or games.
"The One"
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The logical question is "when" were these ads put out? If they were one to two years ago then sure it might be for CoX. If they are more recent it is probably for something else like CoX2.
You're operating on the assumption that there is gonna be a CoX2. There are many reason not to go that route and to "simply" update the existing game, not the least of which is that every sequel MMO (that I can think of) has been a failure, especially when compared to its predecessor.
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And I never suggested that we didn't have to pay for the last expansion. Again, Reading Comprehension 101 comes in handy. What I said was that we haven't been told anything that is coming down the pike except for the expansion (which, of course, we have to pay for just as we did the last one). That doesn't tell us anything about what we can expect in future issues, which is something this creative team has done several times over the last year or so.
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Positron stated in an interview he was working internally on Issue 18.
He also hinted at demonic summoning and dual pistol power sets coming in the future (happens to be the sets of the two characters featured in the CoHGR vid: a dual pistol blaster and a demon summoning master mind)
There was also a strange note about: "all I can say is that power customization was something we were not able to do while we were under cryptic, that's all I can say right now" (but I think if this comes it will be exclusive to people that buy the expansion.)
The Issue 18 being on the works is enough hint to know they are working on much more stuff to come, though.
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To play devils advocate:
It isn't hard to plan 3-4 issues ahead when they consist of a single TF/SF and a handful of new costume/faces
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You're operating on the assumption that there is gonna be a CoX2. There are many reason not to go that route and to "simply" update the existing game, not the least of which is that every sequel MMO (that I can think of) has been a failure, especially when compared to its predecessor.
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The devs spout off about risk vs reward all the time like they are some kind of risk analysts. So lets think about it like that.
How many games and/or MMO's have had a heart transplant when they are in the geriatric ward (massive multi-million overhaul when they are hella old)?
Of those games (if they exist) how many have had a massive resurgence?
I'm not saying there will be a CoX2 at all, just that if they are actively seeking a new engine it would make sense to drop it in a new version of the game, rather than trying to perform cpr.
To be brutally frank (everyone here likes this game) at 150k subs, I don't really see how CoX2 could do worse... Some MMO's that are considered to be on life support, or new ones that have been total flops are still pulling sub numbers in that range.
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. . . And frankly, if an hour and a half's worth of content is all they can produce after months of development, then you can't possibly be upset with me for voicing my unhappiness.
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Well, heck yes.
That might explain it.
Can you point me to the references that they spent months on I15?
I missed seeing them. That would help us understand.
When they told us, weeks ago, that I15 would be small, I have to admit to you, that I,
(and I think most), logically assumed they had spent many months on AE, and many months on the coming expansion, GR. But many of us assumed when they told us weeks ago that I15 would be small, we just thought that this sounded logical.
But if you can link me to the references of the months of work you think they all spent on I15, I will come over and sit with you and be grumpy too.
Until then, I have to say I would feel unreasonable to be grumpy about small I15,
since they warned us of that a good while back.
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I feel bad for all the people saying that size doesn't matter.
It has always mattered and always will matter.
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I feel bad for all the people saying that size doesn't matter.
It has always mattered and always will matter.
[/ QUOTE ]Size doesnt matter, its all about the motion in the ocean. A canoe can sometimes be better than a yaht. All jokes aside though, this issue is what I consider pitiful and would rather they just waited until they had more done instead of pushing this out when its really just something we could have done in the MA. The usual quality just isnt there which is what I have the most problem with this being so small. To be honest if they dont fix that nightmare of a SF the only thing I will be looking forward to is dom fixes post issue 15.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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I have confirmation from a couple of my friends who have seen advertisements where they live for the "posi team" looking for game engine developers... Although this *may* or may not mean there is an overhaul in the game engine, I do think this confirms that they have at least looked into the possibility of it in the future, for whatever reasons they may have for future releases or games.
"The One"
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The logical question is "when" were these ads put out? If they were one to two years ago then sure it might be for CoX. If they are more recent it is probably for something else like CoX2.
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Good question. I didn't ask him when exactly he saw them. He just told me he saw them, and he had no reason to lie.
"The One"
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
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It also speaks nothing of this game's age. Sure they are plenty of long lived MMO's, but most of them had a heck of a lot more subs at their prime than CoX. Now they are operating at 1/10th or 1/5th of their heyday and still have similar numbers to CoX.
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Pre World of Warcraft - the MOST subscribers held by a Western MMO (ie don't bring up Liniage was S0E's Everquest at around 600K subs; and THAT was the 800 lbs. Gorilla pre-WoW. Most others either failed (Asheron's Call 2; The Matrix On-Line; Earth and Beyond); or hung around the 100K - 200K mark. Star Wars galaxies started at about 500K but due to SoE design and administrative mismanagement from the start only manages around 100K or so now (and probably woould have been pulled, except Lucas Arts doesn't want to admit ANYTHING in te Star Wars IP as a 'failure - but it is why the contracted with Bio-Ware to do a second Star Wars MMO - still in development).
CoH AT IT'S HIGHEST subscription rate managed about 220K subscriptions; so honestly, there hasn't been all that much flux. Will Champions On-Line (whenever it's released) cut into those subs? For a time, yes; but given that Jack Emeret's still at the helm; I suspect that within 6 months he'll do some sort of nerf of CO game change in the name of 'fun' that'll marginalize CO. As for DCUO - it's being administered by SoE - so for me, it's already a non-starter as I personally WILL NEVER pay money for anything done by SoE; but that's me.
As for the age issue, hell, (and IMO) - COH didn't really start to make major improvements until Jack split off. the fact is - (and for whatever reason) non 'High Fantasy' MMOs don't seem to attract players; and CoH is also still quite a different model in that there is no real 'endgame' structure. CoH 'Raids' - which ARE in effect the TFs and SFs are scattered all through the game - which is something that a lot of MMO players have trouble wrapping their heads areound a in the majoprity of other MMOs the 'game' (meaning big Raids) only start on ce you hit max level.
But again, to the OP's point; CoH ISN'T at one-fifth of it's original starting subscriber base; more like two-thirds; and as far as retention goes, it seems to be doing okay. Would they like more? You bet, but I'd say NCSoft is satisfied as long as this game sees a profit; and it's their only real Werstern sccess; but NCSoft makes their money off Liniage in Korea anyway - and they still have two million or so subcribers on that one.
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Is this what people do now, complain on free stuff? I think someone hasn't worn the shoes of an Analyst or a Developer.
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Now?
This has been going on for years