City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

I promised Ignicity that I'd do this...

Abraxxus

By Abraxxus,
Posted on: 2009-05-25 07:23 in Justice

 

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Boys are nothin but big ol meanieheads anyways.


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>:[ meanie

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she says that to me often. It hurts more than a punch to the groin.

 

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Skirts and dames.

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2 of each, please.

"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF

Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')

 

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How did this thread get so off track?


I thought we were talking about me, and how right I always am.

 

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How did this thread get so off track?


I thought we were talking about me, and how right I always am.



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Nothing ever stays on track forever around here... having a conversation around here is like trying to heard cats or get methed-up capuchin monkeys to sit still.

Not that that's a bad thing, necessarily...

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You have no idea the kind of hell a methed-up capuchin monkey can bring you!

 

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The University of Guelph <snip>

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That is not the point, at all. There is a right way and a wrong way to argue a point, and bringing in personal attacks is the wrong way. Asking for an apology while summarily bringing up personal things completely unrelated to the situation is disingenuous at best, and hypocritical at worst.

For what it's worth, I too would like to see a public statement of apology. I just don't think insulting the person you're asking it of is the right way to go about it. Call me crazy, but if someone where to say to me "You owe me an apology, you fat person with a stupid haircut" (to use both of your examples), I'd feel rather disinclined to offer one, whether I was in the wrong or not.

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I don't want an apology, I just want to be treated like an adult.

When the game launched, for the first four issues they listened to us... then they stopped really listening to us... then Emmert left and Miller took over and they listened to us for another little while... and now they've stopped listening again. Or even realy considering us, for that matter.

I'm an adult. I pay my own bills and the name on the credit card that pays for this account is mine. I expect to be treated like an adult by the vendor from whom I'm purchasing service, and it's not happening.

They don't need to include us on everything, they don't need to "do as they're told" by us. But I'll be good and god-damned if I'm going to allow them to treat me, a 33 year old man, like a child, and that's what they're doing. They're not treating players like important members of the process, regardless of wether they think they are or not. I'm sure they'd SAY they were, they may even THINK they are, but as we all know the reality is very different. The reality is that we're shuffled off to the side and forced to deal with the consequences of crappy decisions, and then told to hush up about it, like itinerant children who've been told to shut up, be quiet and just sit over there in that corner while the adults fix the TV set, and by God, whatever channel comes up that's what you'll watch, and you better not complain about it or you'll be sent to your room without dinner.

No other industry in the world, no other business in the world can operate on this model and the MMO development community is fooling itself if it thinks that it can continue to behave like this much longer. Certainly not right now, probably not next week or even next year... but there will come a point when the customers of MMO games have had enough. Personally, I'm pretty much almost there anyway... And I'm dangerously close to giving up on MMOs altogether just simply because I'm tired of being treated like an infant by self-important myopes who think they know what it's like to be a customer of their own product, what it's like to be me and think they can tell me what I think is fun and what isn't.

They aren't. They don't and they can't.

Brother of Markus

The Lord of Fire and Pain

The Legendary Living Hellfire

Fight my brute!

 

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How did this thread get so off track?


I thought we were talking about me, and how right I always am.



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Nothing ever stays on track forever around here... having a conversation around here is like trying to heard cats or get methed-up capuchin monkeys to sit still.

Not that that's a bad thing, necessarily...

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You have no idea the kind of hell a metheg-up capuchin monkey can bring you!

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Dude, you are a methed-up capuchin monkey.

But that's why I love you... Now stop dangling from that man's moustache and tell me where you got that... uh, what is that?! Is that a rhino testicle?!

Dude...

Brother of Markus

The Lord of Fire and Pain

The Legendary Living Hellfire

Fight my brute!

 

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Ooh ooh!

*throws poop*

True story: while at the Columbus Zoo, the woman and I were watching the bonobos and she remarked, "Look at that little one. He reminds me of you."

 

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Actually, it was the rhino...

 

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So why have I not been able to figure out the multi-quote thing? seriously? My forums have multi buttons for multi-quotes.

omg I hate y'all with your matching avatar thingys. It makes me actually pay attention to who is saying what.

Throwing poop is bad mk

and very well said LHF.

/agree
/signed
/S.W.A.K.

And no, we never stay on topi.....oh.... lookit.... something shiny *wanders off*

 

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When the game launched, for the first four issues they listened to us... then they stopped really listening to us... then Emmert left and Miller took over and they listened to us for another little while... and now they've stopped listening again. Or even realy considering us, for that matter.

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I think that's what's really at the heart of the matter. I was lucky to have joined during the time that they were listening to us after Posi took over...so an open dialog with the devs was the only thing I knew for the longest time. As I mentioned in lucas' thread, I (as well as RL friends who play the game) have noticed a drastic dropoff in redname communication with the players that seemed to start around the time of HeroCon. They may be hearing what the players want (such as fixing PvP, fixing MA exploits, etc), but they aren't listening to our feedback to see whether or not they are implementing those fixes in a way that the players expect or enjoy. As I said in the other thread ('cause I'm too lazy to paraphrase )...

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There's just too much stuff that's been pushed through since HeroCon that goes against player feedback and is infuriating and dividing our community. And the redname response (if any) is often too little too late. Much of this growing customer dissatisfaction could have been prevented in the first place had the lines of communication not been severed and the developers heeded the community's feedback.

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Having a chance to calm down and reflect upon my feelings on the matter, I think I've pinpointed the source my anger and frustration over the past week. It's not *just* the stuff that happened over the course of the week that's been making me upset...that was just the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. I'm far more upset and disappointed seeing this breakdown in lines of communication between the devs over the past 7-8 months and the negative impact it's been having on this community. I think an apology would have been a great *first step* in reopening an open dialogue between the devs and players and would have gone a long way in helping reestablish the community's broken trust in the rednames. But at this point, a lot more dev communication (beyond an apology for what happened this past week) would have to happen to truly heal the relationship between player and dev.

In a nutshell...rednames, your players are your strongest assets. I implore upon you to talk to us and listen (not just hear) what we have to say. Please reopen the lines of communication so we *all* can work together to make this game the greatest MMO it can be.

 

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Liv and Manoa both have summed up my feelings nicely.

Jude.. you didn't share the poo with me and I feel neglected and unloved.

"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF

Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')

 

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Can't have that.

*Throws poop at Smoke*

Sorry I'm not LaserJudas throwing the poop, but I do what I can with what I have.

 

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O.o

Eeewwww!

Dirty boys!

 

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They aren't. They don't and they can't.

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It's the business model that's worked for MMO's since the beginning. You can't treat your actual player base like adults and you can't trust them. Dev's know this. The producer knows this. The mods know this. QA knows this. The crappy decisions you all keep harping on about is your opinion of those decisions, which everybody doesn't share and clearly certainly not the dev's opinion of said decisions.

I don't see the business model really folding in on itself either since there's a constant influx of new kids who don't know any better and don't just assume they deserve everyone's respect simply for existing but that's just speculation on my part.

Apparently I'm to stupid right now to make an awesome link with a picture and stuff but neverthelss sign the petition! [u]http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes[u]

 

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These games don't last forever. When they finally go under or fall off the radar it's not usually because they're doing awesome on the customer service level.

"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF

Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')

 

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They aren't. They don't and they can't.

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It's the business model that's worked for MMO's since the beginning. You can't treat your actual player base like adults and you can't trust them. Dev's know this. The producer knows this. The mods know this. QA knows this. The crappy decisions you all keep harping on about is your opinion of those decisions, which everybody doesn't share and clearly certainly not the dev's opinion of said decisions.

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What does trust have to do with communication? What does trust have to do with simply doing the thing that you said you'd do? If you're running any kind of business you're not going to trust every single customer, that's why most businesses have alarm systems and cameras set up.

There's a difference between trusting your customer and simply keeping him informed of whatever changes/fixes/alterations you're making to a product that he/she's purchasing. There's a difference between trusting your customer and simply treating them fairly. One doesn't need to trust someone to treat them like human beings, for god's sake.

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I don't see the business model really folding in on itself either since there's a constant influx of new kids who don't know any better and don't just assume they deserve everyone's respect simply for existing but that's just speculation on my part.

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If you don't respect your client base, you'll lose them, it's that simple. The customer may not always be right, but they are the most important and that's a very basic tenet of business that even the most inexperienced layman can understand.

I'm approaching this from the perspective of a customer, an adult and a paying subscriber. You seem to be approaching this from the perspective of a developer. I've stated in the past, but I'm fairly certain that I wouldn't last long subscribed to any service you were providing, given your mentality.

Brother of Markus

The Lord of Fire and Pain

The Legendary Living Hellfire

Fight my brute!

 

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The University of Guelph <snip>

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That is not the point, at all. There is a right way and a wrong way to argue a point, and bringing in personal attacks is the wrong way. Asking for an apology while summarily bringing up personal things completely unrelated to the situation is disingenuous at best, and hypocritical at worst.

For what it's worth, I too would like to see a public statement of apology. I just don't think insulting the person you're asking it of is the right way to go about it. Call me crazy, but if someone where to say to me "You owe me an apology, you fat person with a stupid haircut" (to use both of your examples), I'd feel rather disinclined to offer one, whether I was in the wrong or not.

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I don't want an apology, I just want to be treated like an adult. <snip>

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And you don't see the irony here? You're asking to be treated like an adult while hurling personal attacks and insults?

Now Liv, I've always liked you, and hopefully you know that, which is why I said anything in the first place. I really do think you're better than stooping to that kind of language and tactic.

And I'm not disagreeing with the core of what it is you want, I just think there are better ways to go about it.

@Arwen Darkblade
Proud Member of Hammer of the Gods and Sanguine Syndicate
Arc ID #86194 "Cry Havoc"
Arc ID #103934 "Dr. Thomas' First Day"
[URL="http://tobyfife.blogspot.com/"]Hero Girl[/URL] - my geek culture blog

 

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Insult my ethnic heritage, for example.

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Pics or it didn't happen!!

Wait ... are you part gremlin?

 

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The University of Guelph <snip>

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That is not the point, at all. There is a right way and a wrong way to argue a point, and bringing in personal attacks is the wrong way. Asking for an apology while summarily bringing up personal things completely unrelated to the situation is disingenuous at best, and hypocritical at worst.

For what it's worth, I too would like to see a public statement of apology. I just don't think insulting the person you're asking it of is the right way to go about it. Call me crazy, but if someone where to say to me "You owe me an apology, you fat person with a stupid haircut" (to use both of your examples), I'd feel rather disinclined to offer one, whether I was in the wrong or not.

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I don't want an apology, I just want to be treated like an adult. <snip>

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And you don't see the irony here? You're asking to be treated like an adult while hurling personal attacks and insults?

Now Liv, I've always liked you, and hopefully you know that, which is why I said anything in the first place. I really do think you're better than stooping to that kind of language and tactic.

And I'm not disagreeing with the core of what it is you want, I just think there are better ways to go about it.

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He made one insult.

Drop it and get over it.

Edit: Let me just add this bit in. Arwen, by mentioning, repeatedly, what Liv did that got your feathers ruffled, you are becoming, in essence, Ignicity et al, in that you won't let it go, and are running the risk of making the people who agree with you NOT agree with you on basic principle.

I agree with the principle of the whole argument of what was done was poorly done, but because of the constant goings on, I simply stop caring at all about their point.

Same thing.