Victims of Architect ratings griefers
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2009-05-24 15:28 in Mission Architect
Although I think having a wait period for rating would actually help, (personally I don't want anyone rating my arc if they didn't spend 10 minutes in it or send me a pm about how they couldn't get past the first mob) I don't think the devs would do that.
I honestly believe a thumbs up/thumbs down is a better alternative. You can still have the over all star score based on it as well. And if you weight it 3 for up, 1 for down, this focuses more on what people like versus don't like.
I've seen the thumbs up/thumbs down with 5 star overall in the works, used on a couple hundred people, and the only way to break it is to have a much larger population of people griefing than honest. Then if your arc has 10 up votes and 30 down votes, you would have a 2.5 out of 5 star rating. This is not a bad rating but not a great rating either which would be acceptable if if at least a quarter of the people playing it enjoyed it.
Then if you have 31 people who gave up votes and 10 people who voted down, you would have 4.51 stars, which rounded up, would still put you at 5 stars.
As the system is now, 31 people voting 5 stars and 10 voting 1 would give you a fairly solid 4 star rating (or at least that's how it appears, I don't know the exact weight for the current system).
The up/down vote would also cut out the complications of how people see a 4 star vote the same way another sees a 2 star vote.
It's easy, it favors the positive rather than the negative and less people would [censored] about a down vote than a 1 star vote ("this is a decent arc but I just didn't like it" vs "this arc represents the worst level on the rating system")
Plus I think most people hang out at the extreme sides of 4-5 star or the 1-2 star range anyway. I would be curious if the devs could mine the raw stats on how many people vote 1 vs 3 stars.
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I would be curious if the devs could mine the raw stats on how many people vote 1 vs 3 stars.
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As of the last time I checked, of the arcs that were rated at all, 9.69% were rated 5-stars, 55.79% were rated 4-stars, 23.71% were rated 3-stars, 6.46% were rated 2-stars, and 4.34% were rated 1-star.
(28.22% of all arcs were unrated at the time)
This is not the same thing as an answer to your question, but its generally suggestive.
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It is rather telling. From that data, it seems that most players are inclined to rate favorably, but a core group is determined to downrate higher rated arcs. Unfortunate, but unsurprising.
I don't even look through rated arcs anymore -- I scroll through the arcs that have never been played or rated looking for something that piques my interest. I've found some really good arcs that way, but it's time-consuming. Though a little reading never hurt anyone.
One forum name, two members: Molly Hackett & Heliphyneau.
AE arcs:
27327 - Enter the Homunculi
176837 - Homunculi 2: Tectonic Boogaloo -- UPDATED
As I said early on, a majority of the players are willing to give good feedback and decent ratings, it's the few who get their thrills out of griefing others is what causes all the problems.
As Magnolia indicated, their arc was riding high on the front page and then was sucker punched by some zero griefers. Somehow the rating system needs to take into account that an arc has been sitting there with favorable ratings for a while then all of a sudden gets 0 or 1 stars. If there is a flood of them maybe they need to get tossed out.
Same for the flip side of the coin. Having a SG come along and play your arc a lot and rate it high just because they can, then that needs to be taken into consideration as well and most likely tossed out.
Almost like they way they set the scores in the Olympics, toss out the high and the low and you get your average.
Unfortunately I have no idea how they could go about doing this.
There is also the fact that a good arc will get a lot of high ratings, because people enjoy it, and most of us aren't literary critics and will give out 5 stars based on a simple "I had fun." I honestly can't think of a way they could get rid of undeserved 5-stars by friends, except to maybe require finishing the arc to assign 5 stars.
Even anomalous 5-star ratings can sometimes be legitimate, especially with things like Supergroup arcs, or in-jokes, that are designed to appeal to a specific group but are playable by anyone.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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It is rather telling. From that data, it seems that most players are inclined to rate favorably, but a core group is determined to downrate higher rated arcs. Unfortunate, but unsurprising.
I don't even look through rated arcs anymore -- I scroll through the arcs that have never been played or rated looking for something that piques my interest. I've found some really good arcs that way, but it's time-consuming. Though a little reading never hurt anyone.
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Really ? So if 60% of the arcs aren't 5* the system isn't working ?
Seems that data shows most of the stories are horribly overrated
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There is also the fact that a good arc will get a lot of high ratings, because people enjoy it, and most of us aren't literary critics and will give out 5 stars based on a simple "I had fun." I honestly can't think of a way they could get rid of undeserved 5-stars by friends, except to maybe require finishing the arc to assign 5 stars.
Even anomalous 5-star ratings can sometimes be legitimate, especially with things like Supergroup arcs, or in-jokes, that are designed to appeal to a specific group but are playable by anyone.
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And that's a problem both with getting a mission noticed and getting the 'bonuses' that come with it.
I said it before I'll say it again, tying rewards to things like 'been played' and 'ratings' is just a formula for headaches and griefing JUST like what happened over on "the movies online" when it was up. You had rating cartels working to get chosen movies onto the top 10 and then from there they were able to just ride a high as most people never looked past the top 10 list or the new release page (which changed by the minute).
Same thing is happening here. We get SO's, we get more toys for the AE building, we get 'stuff' if our missions rate well and if we get plays. How do we get plays? We end up on the first few pages by rating.
And if someone gives us a 1 star, then regardless of ~why~ they gave it, it dangs us. It robs us of our chance. Yes frivolous 5 stars do the exact same thing but they do it to someone else, as our arc gets pushed above theirs.
As long as you tie rewards to player choices like ratings you're going to have this, and the super stingy 1 star review and the griefer "i wanna be a jerk" 1 star do the exact same thing.
(How many 5-stars do you need to cancel out a 1 and push you back up to 4.5? Is it 7?)
The big difference is the stingy 1-star reviewer is ONE GUY. Well, ok, it's more than one guy, but they're in the minority. You need 7 5-star ratings to cancel out his 1-star.
On the other hand, when you get to the front pages, you are on the front pages for a lot of guys. The first jerk 1-stars you. You are still on the front page for the second and third and fourth jerk, until they refresh their search window. You now need 28 5-star ratings to cancel them all out and get back up to 5 stars.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
It's 9 5s to cancel out a 1 and put it back to 4.5.
So, how about this:
When you exit a mission, you are given a few options:
1- I disliked this mission.
2- I liked this mission; please award the user 15 tickets.
3- I recommend this mission; award the user 25 tickets and add it to my 'recommended' list.
Adding an arc to your recommended list requires you to click at least one check box indicating a reason for your recommendation, such as story or challenge quality. You can recommend one arc per hour.
You can only have 10 recommended arcs at once; if you recommend an 11th, you are prompted to drop a different arc out of your list (they keep the tickets). You can also simply revoke a recommendation for an arc.
A user viewing one of your arcs in the MA can click a button to view your list of recommendations, and a list of users that recommend the arc they are viewing.
They can also search for a list of arcs that have been recommended for a particular aspect.
Each arc shows a list of recommendations/plays. An MA tab can be configured to show arc in order of most to least recommendations (or the reverse).
Does this sound like a good proposal?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
That sounds terrible - I have way more than 10 arcs I've played that I'd reccomend, and I can play more than 1 arc per hour. Your proposed system seems to discourage voting high as much as possible while giving no similar incentive not to constantly vote low, since voting low could be done as much as you want, and wouldn't cost you precious 'reccomended' slots.
Plus, under your system you can't give the top ranking to an arc you enjoyed without removing your reccomendation of another arc, so even if a player really, really loved the arc, if they also like every arc on their reccomended list, might vote it lower just to avoid changing their list, so you're back to not neccessarily voting what it 'deserves' in that player's eyes. If anything, it would make the voting even less honest than it does now, since everything in this system (timer, limits, etc) encourages lower votes, since even when the player honestly enjoyed the arc, they have incentives NOT to vote accordingly, but no penalty to low-vote it instead, whereas grief voters are given no restrictions or penalties for grief voting at the same time as high votes are severely restricted.
If anything, it would compound the problem of votes - since in your system it would be that much harder to get high votes, the low votes that have no penalty to administer would be that much more potent. As it stands now, if an arc legitimately has a 4 or 5 star rating, a single 1 vote cancels out 7 or 9 other votes respectively. That's the main problem with the system - that the opinion of a single low-voter can override several other people. They already have horribly skewed ability to alter arc ratings, and you want to increase that power by limiting the abilities of people to vote higher without limiting the ability of the much more potent low votes, as well?
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So, how about this:
When you exit a mission, you are given a few options:
1- I disliked this mission.
2- I liked this mission; please award the user 15 tickets.
3- I recommend this mission; award the user 25 tickets and add it to my 'recommended' list.
Adding an arc to your recommended list requires you to click at least one check box indicating a reason for your recommendation, such as story or challenge quality. You can recommend one arc per hour.
You can only have 10 recommended arcs at once; if you recommend an 11th, you are prompted to drop a different arc out of your list (they keep the tickets). You can also simply revoke a recommendation for an arc.
A user viewing one of your arcs in the MA can click a button to view your list of recommendations, and a list of users that recommend the arc they are viewing.
They can also search for a list of arcs that have been recommended for a particular aspect.
Each arc shows a list of recommendations/plays. An MA tab can be configured to show arc in order of most to least recommendations (or the reverse).
Does this sound like a good proposal?
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Sounds very reasonable, don't expect it to get any traction. Its not going to move arcs into the hall of fame, or make it easier for people to get there.
You make some good points.
But the thing is that in the proposal, downvoting someone does not hurt them in any way.
There are no visible star ratings (I guess I didn't make that clear) so all you see is how many people have played an arc versus how many people have recommended that same arc.
The idea is to shift the focus from which arcs everybody else likes to which arcs are like by people with tastes similar to your own.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Yeah, the problem would be having a limit on the "recommended" list. I've 5-starred more than ten arcs. Although I do like the idea of having a box you can tick to indicate why you liked the arc.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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It is rather telling. From that data, it seems that most players are inclined to rate favorably, but a core group is determined to downrate higher rated arcs. Unfortunate, but unsurprising.
I don't even look through rated arcs anymore -- I scroll through the arcs that have never been played or rated looking for something that piques my interest. I've found some really good arcs that way, but it's time-consuming. Though a little reading never hurt anyone.
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Really ? So if 60% of the arcs aren't 5* the system isn't working ?
Seems that data shows most of the stories are horribly overrated
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I'm sorry but THIS.
The idea that 60% of arcs are high quality is highly ridiculous based on some of the stuff I keep getting pulled up when I try as best I can to randomize my search in MA.
When i get pages and pages of "asdessf" nonsense . . . umm NO!
Hopefully the issue 15 "more" section and tags helps.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Yeah, the problem would be having a limit on the "recommended" list. I've 5-starred more than ten arcs. Although I do like the idea of having a box you can tick to indicate why you liked the arc.
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I think the idea is to MOVE away from the star system (not going to repeat my having it DIE in FIRE suggestion. 
) and to a system of what folks of similar interests to you liked .
COMBINE this with having what arcs appear on the front page be randomized from time to time and it would help.
Also the ultimate COMBINATION is to DROP THE EXTRA SLOT reward from being tied in anyway shape or form to playerbase whim.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I have been playing COH for just over 4 years. I really enjoy the game and the architect feature is a fantastic addition because now I find myself playing 50s that I stopped playing. I have not gone and made a arc myself but really enjoy doing other peoples. That a person would put in the time and effort to create an arc for others to play and enjoy is really fun. Until I read the first few pages of this thread it had never occured to me that other people would purposely rate someone's arc negatively. I am not naive,(I work in the futures industry), but this is reprehensible. What would you get out of rating another persons arc 0 or 1 star? Truly pathetic imo. I hope this doesn't discourage potential authors because this new feature has really boosted my enjoyment of the game. I realize this is a online video game but for heaven's sake what is the point of rating an arc 0?
Dadda Man
Unfortunately the "random" button on test only gives you one random arc, not a page of them. So you have to keep clicking it until you get something that sounds vaguely interesting, rather than having a whole page to look at.
I would honestly like for the DEFAULT search to be randomized somewhat. Have maybe three randomly chosen Dev's Choice arcs at the top of the first few pages, two or three Hall of Fame arcs when we get some, thereby still showcasing those arcs but not to the exclusion of all others, and the rest be completely random until you click on a "sort by" button.
Right now, we have: Dev's Choice arcs. Two 5-starred arcs that likely deserve it, since they have kept their rating for over 100 plays. Three or four 5-starred arcs that might deserve the rating, having over 20 plays. And then on page two you start getting into 5-starred arcs with a single rating and a one-sentence description such as "So and so is attacking paragon city and you have to stop him." Your 4-starred arc is better than those.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Unfortunately the "random" button on test only gives you one random arc, not a page of them. So you have to keep clicking it until you get something that sounds vaguely interesting, rather than having a whole page to look at.
I would honestly like for the DEFAULT search to be randomized somewhat. Have maybe three randomly chosen Dev's Choice arcs at the top of the first few pages, two or three Hall of Fame arcs when we get some, thereby still showcasing those arcs but not to the exclusion of all others, and the rest be completely random until you click on a "sort by" button.
Right now, we have: Dev's Choice arcs. Two 5-starred arcs that likely deserve it, since they have kept their rating for over 100 plays. Three or four 5-starred arcs that might deserve the rating, having over 20 plays. And then on page two you start getting into 5-starred arcs with a single rating and a one-sentence description such as "So and so is attacking paragon city and you have to stop him." Your 4-starred arc is better than those.
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Really. The page organization of MA NEEDS to be improved.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Yeah, the problem would be having a limit on the "recommended" list. I've 5-starred more than ten arcs. Although I do like the idea of having a box you can tick to indicate why you liked the arc.
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I think there needs to be SOME limit, so you don't end up with every arc in the MA being 'recommended' at once (per the 5-Star SGs and cartels). However, I am not married to the idea of this number being 10.
What limit would you set?
I don't doubt that there at least one Pollyanna out there that thinks that absolutely every arc in the MA is utter gold, but there should be some limit to keep the 'recommended' lists meaningful...and readable.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Maybe a certain percentage of arcs completed? That way Mr. "I love the MA and I run player-created content daily" gets to recommend more arcs than Mr. "I never use the MA, I just go in to recommend my friends' arcs."
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Unfortunately the "random" button on test only gives you one random arc, not a page of them. So you have to keep clicking it until you get something that sounds vaguely interesting, rather than having a whole page to look at.
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Really, I think 5 random arcs would be fine. 5 is a good number for people to scan quickly.
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I would honestly like for the DEFAULT search to be randomized somewhat. Have maybe three randomly chosen Dev's Choice arcs at the top of the first few pages, two or three Hall of Fame arcs when we get some, thereby still showcasing those arcs but not to the exclusion of all others, and the rest be completely random until you click on a "sort by" button.
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Just one page. Nothing like we have now where it potentially spits back everything when you open the architect. But that distribution sounds good.
Maybe have an option in account settings or something where you can switch up what shows on your "architect front page". Random arcs updated today, random unrated arcs, stuff like that.
And since they'll be folding comment display into the arcs, maybe have an option for the arc author to pick 3-5 short player comments?
Up with the overworld! Up with exploration! | Want a review of your arc?
My arcs: Dream Paper (ID: 1874) | Bricked Electronics (ID: 2180) | The Bravuran Jobs (ID: 5073) | Backwards Day (ID: 329000) | Operation Fair Trade (ID: 391172)
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And since they'll be folding comment display into the arcs, maybe have an option for the arc author to pick 3-5 short player comments?
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I've already got "too many commas" ready to go!
Works for me. Perhaps 10 arcs, plus 1 arc for every 10 different authors whose arcs you complete?
Don't want it just to be start-and-quits, or let people unpublish/republish arcs to run up their totals, or we may invent a new form of grinding 
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Post your grief story here, and lets help the other grief victims out there to give their stories a fair shake.
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Yep, add me to the list. 5 stars yesterday and on the front page, now buried somewhere deep in the 4 star list. ( my Croatoa arc )
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This happened to me not long after I published.
5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, hit page 2, a bunch of zeros... 4s and 5s since and I've been buried in the back beyond of the 4-star section ever since. It's hard to overcome 0-star ratings.
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