Fourth-tier travel powers... pointless?
By
A_duck,
Posted on: 2009-05-22 05:39 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Accelerated Reflexes i suspect would be considered more than a little overpowered for a pool power, 4th tier or not. It gives larger bonuses than the first two tiers of Fitness combined in one power plus a recharge bonus?
Not very likely to happen. Quickness is tier 6 for Scrappers (8 for Brutes) and it grants fewer bonuses in a secondary powerset.
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Accelerated Reflexes i suspect would be considered more than a little overpowered for a pool power, 4th tier or not. It gives larger bonuses than the first two tiers of Fitness combined in one power plus a recharge bonus?
Not very likely to happen. Quickness is tier 6 for Scrappers (8 for Brutes) and it grants fewer bonuses in a secondary powerset.
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I don't think the tier4 power I've suggested for the Speed pool to be in any way shape or form "OP." I think it's perfectly fine to have Accelerated Refelexes boost your jumping and running speeds "slightly" more than Swift or Hurdle. Those are both tier1 pools afterall, an in the grand scheme of things, the slightly faster speeds than Hurdle or Swift would barely be noticed, if at all. You're talking about like a 1-2 mph difference here...I think it'd be justified to have it grant slightly more run speed, being a tier 4 pool power and all.
On the +recharge side of things, I went ahead and dropped that 15% +rech (which personally I don't think is too much either) to 10% +rech. This is only HALF the value of both Lightning Reflexes (avail lvl 20 for Brutes, same as tier4 pool) and Quickness (avail lvl 20 for Scraps, same as tier4 pool). Furthermore, it's not granting +res to slows, even though I think a minor +res to slows wouldn't be uncalled for at all.
Personally, I find absolutely no unbalance in my proposed Accelerated Reflexes power. None at all. You do, afterall have to go 3 deep into a Power Pool to get it. Many builds may not find the room or need to go that deep into the Speed Pool just for a minor +movement increase and minor +rech bonus. Things you can easily cover with basic IO recipe slotting.
I think it's a fine power.
*shrug* Okay then. i don't necessarily agree, but since i'm not expecting to see any cottages popping up, and would benefit if it was done anyway, it's just Castle and Positron who would have to be convinced...
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Tier 4 Teleport power to me should have Assemble the Team added to the mix. Very useful and very popular.
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Not gonna happen, no matter how useful it would be. It would invalidate the 42 month Veteran Reward.
Maybe an emergency exit power, that sends the player and those around him back to the beginning of a mission map?
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This reasoning behind adding an "Assemble the Team"-like power invaliding a Vet Reward doesn't make sense. The power already existed in game as a Temp Power from a Safeguard/Mayhem. Vets get access to permanent Nemesis Staves and Blackwands, which were once only obtained as Temp Powers as well.
If anything, making that an option for the Teleport Pool gives a Vet access to the same power twice, while eliminated the "need" to pick it up at all for some. It won't invalidate anything unless the recharge on it is really short, which I don't believe it would be. But at the same time, I don't see that type of power being added as a chooseable power to begin with.
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Group Fly would be just fine if they took off the 20% accuracy penalty, and allowed flight enhancements to benefit everyone picked up by the power (or pull the flight enhancements entirely). The issues it has currently make it completely unusable apart from moving MM pets around.
I dunno what to do with Team Teleport. Maybe a watered down version of Gravity Control's Wormhole, except solely as an enemy placement power? Being able to cluster foes would be a lot more useful than it sounds.
Acrobatics is fine, even though it's not really mandatory for certain characters anymore.
Whirlwind is fine, but it's too expensive for what it does. Maybe it should be a fast-recharge click power instead, slottable for knockback if the player really wants it to throw people back.
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Accelerated Reflexes i suspect would be considered more than a little overpowered for a pool power, 4th tier or not. It gives larger bonuses than the first two tiers of Fitness combined in one power plus a recharge bonus?
Not very likely to happen. Quickness is tier 6 for Scrappers (8 for Brutes) and it grants fewer bonuses in a secondary powerset.
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I don't think the tier4 power I've suggested for the Speed pool to be in any way shape or form "OP." I think it's perfectly fine to have Accelerated Refelexes boost your jumping and running speeds "slightly" more than Swift or Hurdle. Those are both tier1 pools afterall, an in the grand scheme of things, the slightly faster speeds than Hurdle or Swift would barely be noticed, if at all. You're talking about like a 1-2 mph difference here...I think it'd be justified to have it grant slightly more run speed, being a tier 4 pool power and all.
On the +recharge side of things, I went ahead and dropped that 15% +rech (which personally I don't think is too much either) to 10% +rech. This is only HALF the value of both Lightning Reflexes (avail lvl 20 for Brutes, same as tier4 pool) and Quickness (avail lvl 20 for Scraps, same as tier4 pool). Furthermore, it's not granting +res to slows, even though I think a minor +res to slows wouldn't be uncalled for at all.
Personally, I find absolutely no unbalance in my proposed Accelerated Reflexes power. None at all. You do, afterall have to go 3 deep into a Power Pool to get it. Many builds may not find the room or need to go that deep into the Speed Pool just for a minor +movement increase and minor +rech bonus. Things you can easily cover with basic IO recipe slotting.
I think it's a fine power.
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That suggestion doesn't do much for me. Hasten already gives a recharge bonus. You're adding a tiny amount of recharge as a 4th tier power when the first tier already gives you a BIG recharge. Granted, the recharge from Hasten is temporary, but even when you average it out, it's much more than that 4th tier one. And if it comes to increasing both runspeed and jump speed/height, I think I'd rather see that in the fitness line.
I think whirlwind would be fine if it was switched back to knockup instead of knockback. As a knockup power, it was VERY useful.
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Here's my experience with them:
Whirlwind: Took it on a 2004 main character. Figured it'd be useful as CC for a empathy/psi defender. It was all right, but because of the drain you'd be better off using it as an emergency escape kind of thing. Also hard to use to herd; too much double knockback and stuff now.
Acrobatics: Taken soooo many times for the knockbackery. I liked supposedly having a mag 1 hold protection on my defenders too, but who knows if that's true? I always preferred it to hover for knockback protection (like on fiery aura tanks and brutes) because of the "follow bug" hover has, where you target an enemy and hit F for follow and follow them... right up until just outside of melee range.
Group Fly: First encountered in 2004 when someone took me flying over Steel Canyon. Oh wait, someone mentioned this scenario in this thread already huh? Yeah that's exactly what happened, too, because he swore he could jump off ahead of me and I'd jump off a second later and pass through the bubble and be saved.
Don't ever believe someone who says that.
Then a few years later I met a bots/FF MM who used it all the freakin' time to great effect. I dig the whole death from above thing.
Group Teleport: Took it on my 3-MM team. Wasn't quite as useful as I thought it'd be, because they were bots, mercs, and thugs (all the ranged types). I took group fly on this group too. I think it'd be best for the zombie and ninja MMs, but are those people still alive?
I have to say though, when in large outdoor missions or even in sewers with a full group, not one person ever remarked or complained when I group teleported us from spawn to spawn. They just grabbed the nearest guy and started punching him. That's the best thank you I've ever gotten for taking a power: Silence!
Group flight and team teleport were ideal for shadow shard visits with team members with out flight. Now you can hang onto jet pack sooo......
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Group flight and team teleport were ideal for shadow shard visits with team members with out flight. Now you can hang onto jet pack sooo......
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Team teleport has always been awful in the Shard. By the second jump you're already losing teammates to lag and every place you can't easily run or jump to is at least eight jumps away. Well, i guess if you go slowly and carefully while also running Group Flight it would work. Getting anywhere would take forever compared to just teleporting yourself there and using Recall Friend.
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Tier 4 Teleport power to me should have Assemble the Team added to the mix. Very useful and very popular.
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Not gonna happen, no matter how useful it would be. It would invalidate the 42 month Veteran Reward.
Maybe an emergency exit power, that sends the player and those around him back to the beginning of a mission map?
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This reasoning behind adding an "Assemble the Team"-like power invaliding a Vet Reward doesn't make sense. The power already existed in game as a Temp Power from a Safeguard/Mayhem. Vets get access to permanent Nemesis Staves and Blackwands, which were once only obtained as Temp Powers as well.
If anything, making that an option for the Teleport Pool gives a Vet access to the same power twice, while eliminated the "need" to pick it up at all for some. It won't invalidate anything unless the recharge on it is really short, which I don't believe it would be. But at the same time, I don't see that type of power being added as a chooseable power to begin with.
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Thank god someone said this. To say it invalidated the veteran reward is, imo, foolishness in the utmost extreme. Not to mention, those of us with longer perceptions of the game time line know that the power was already in the game and available to players long ago and removed from gravity control for the most dubious of "balance" reasons and replaced with wormhole. Did the sands of mu temp power invalidate shadow maul? Did shadow maul invalidate the veteran reward. Did the veteran reward invalidate the sands of mu temp and shadow maul?!?! THE WORLD MAY NEVER KNOW HOW MANY THINGS HAVE BEEN INVALIDATED, THE HORROR.
As for Team Teleport, this is what I'd like to see it replaced with, or offered as a 5th power in the pool:
Translocate: This power moves you to your current waypoint on your current map. If that space is occupied, the user may be shifted slightly to make room. This power can not move you to another zone, and may leave you far above the ground. This power has a 10 second interrupt time (Like the Pocket D teleport).
Basically, if you have an in-zone waypoint selected on your map, this is a teleport that will move you to that point. Any selectable waypoint will work. Stores, doorways to other zones, train station/ferry, current mission, "thumbtacks", and even other teammates.
What it won't do is take you to another zone or promise you any kind of safe arrival. I'd also suggest having the 5 second hover when you appear, given that some targets (especally thumbtacks) can leave you very high up when you appear. I'd be willing to do without that, though.
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Team Teleport should have been Assemble the Team, honestly.
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Team Teleport should have been Assemble the Team, honestly.
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Yes.
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Tier 4 Teleport power to me should have Assemble the Team added to the mix. Very useful and very popular.
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Not gonna happen, no matter how useful it would be. It would invalidate the 42 month Veteran Reward.
Maybe an emergency exit power, that sends the player and those around him back to the beginning of a mission map?
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This reasoning behind adding an "Assemble the Team"-like power invaliding a Vet Reward doesn't make sense. The power already existed in game as a Temp Power from a Safeguard/Mayhem. Vets get access to permanent Nemesis Staves and Blackwands, which were once only obtained as Temp Powers as well.
If anything, making that an option for the Teleport Pool gives a Vet access to the same power twice, while eliminated the "need" to pick it up at all for some. It won't invalidate anything unless the recharge on it is really short, which I don't believe it would be. But at the same time, I don't see that type of power being added as a chooseable power to begin with.
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Thank god someone said this. To say it invalidated the veteran reward is, imo, foolishness in the utmost extreme. Not to mention, those of us with longer perceptions of the game time line know that the power was already in the game and available to players long ago and removed from gravity control for the most dubious of "balance" reasons and replaced with wormhole. Did the sands of mu temp power invalidate shadow maul? Did shadow maul invalidate the veteran reward. Did the veteran reward invalidate the sands of mu temp and shadow maul?!?! THE WORLD MAY NEVER KNOW HOW MANY THINGS HAVE BEEN INVALIDATED, THE HORROR.
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You're correct that it was originally in game as part of the Gravity control set but it was replaced by Singularity not Wormhole.
I'm afraid I have to agree that Assemble team should stay a temp power outside of the vet reward. I also agree that I would like to see something done to the team teleport/flight. The suggestion of making group fly a click is wonderful and if they did that in addition to dropping the -ACC I think the power would get used quite a bit more. As for Team Teleport I really don't know what would make that better. Maybe it should be changed to some sort of attack instead of another movement power.
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Acrobatics is fine and the most useful by a LARGE margin over the others.
All others needs changed, they just blow hard chunks.
I think Whirlwind should just be replaced altogether. The power in it's current form is just crap. I'd be more happy with a power that granted me a passive perma-increased movement bonus and slight recharge rate increase. To me, that'd make alot more sense than a friggen Whirlwind of uselessness. The speed pool IS all about speed afterall.
[u]Example:[u]
[u]Accelerated Reflexes[u]
<ul type="square">[*]Increased RunSpeed/FlySpeed +0.50 (that's a little faster than swift: +0.35) [*]Increased JumpHieght +1.75 (compared to hurdle: +1.668) [*]Increased SpeedJumping +1.35 (compared to hurdle: +1.245)[*]Increased Recharge Rate +10%[/list]
Anyways, I think a "passive" tier4 power like what I just listed above would be "useful" to some people (not all, but that's the point) while not being "too powerful" either. It's essentially similar to the passive: Lightning Reflexes from Elec Armor and Quickness from Super Reflexes, only it provides slightly faster "run/jump/fly" speeds, a slightly lower recharge rate reduction value, and (at least right now) no protection from slows. I'd love to see a power like this in the speed pool.
As for Flight, Group Fly needs to go, that power is horrid beyond belief. I think that Group Fly should be changed to "Grant Fly" in similar fasion to "Grant Invis" from the Stealth pool. I think another poster mentiond this same change. I'd back it, sounds like a good idea to me.
[u]Example:[u]
[u]Grant Fly[u]
<ul type="square">[*]+1 Fly for 120 seconds (same as Fly and effect does not stack from the same caster)[*]FlySpeed +1.365 for 120 seconds (same as fly and effect does not stack from the same caster)[/list]
Anyways, adding something like this would be really great imho. It would mean that you could grant your friends "fly" if they needed it (allow members the ability to "accept" or "decline" the power in similar fashion to TP-Friend) but they would also have a fly power which they have "full" control of on their own for a short while after it's granted. To me, that's full of win. Making this a tier4 power for fly is just awesome imho. Note: Grant Fly would still cause the buffed player to experience "attack suppression" just as they would with any travel power.
Someone also mentioned a "Teleport Attack" replacement to Team Teleport. I like this idea as well. I think Team TP is pretty useless right now for most players. Sure, MM's can get a "tiny" bit of use out of it once in awhile, but not much. I LOVE the Teleport Attack idea, but here's my idea on it:
[u]Example:[u]
[u]Teleport Charge[u]
You target an enemy and then immediately teleport a short distance to it's location to get "up-close and personal" with your foe! The shock of your instant appearance has a slight chance to stun your opponent and may even knock them down! This allows you to unleash any variety of melee and close range attacks with ease!
<ul type="square">[*]Type: Click [*]Accuracy: 1 [*]Range: 60 Feet [*]Cast Time: 0.56 seconds [*]Endurance Cost: 16 [*]Recharge Time: 90 seconds [*]Target: Foe [*]+5.15 KnockUp (60% chance) [*]+5.5 second Stun (mag 3) (20% chance)[/list]
Anyways, something like this, I could see being VERY useful and almost invaluable to some melee toons. This port would be a relatively short distance port at 60 feet which means that it would be useful as an opener on a spawn or to quickly intercept/get to a mob that may be slightly "out of reach" for you but is about unleash a vicious attack on you or your teammates. The lightning fast cast time on this power (0.56 sec) means that you would be at your desired target VERY quickly, and be able to unleash what powers you need without too much trouble. The fast cast time help with mobs that are "on the move" and running, so not too much time is wasted on the animation of the power, you get there fast. It's on a 90 second recharge timer, so it's not a power that could be just spammed and abused in any way either.
Basically, you would target an enemy, click the Teleport Charge button and it would teleport you directly beside the enemy you just targeted. This would be a VERY helpful move to many melee toons. Some of the balance here for them is, not many of them want to have Teleport as a travel power, so it'd be a big decision for them to make.
Anyways, those are my suggestions for the 4th powers in each travel pool. I'd like them, and I've made sure to consider "balance" issue with all of them, as to not make them too powerful.