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It's not always beneficial to us in the real world either unfortunately. It is inherent to nature, human or otherwise. That does not mean that it is always a good thing. Too rich of a reward for too little effort leads to corruption and corrosion.
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what do you mean by "corrosion?"
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I think he is referring to the effect where a reward loses it's value over time if it's received too freely. This causes what psychologists called "extinction" of a conditioned behavior because the reward no longer incentivises the behavior.
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in any case, it seems to me that the times where it's a bad thing are the rare exception rather than the rule. I don't have any data on that - it just seems logical, but correct me if I'm wrong.
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Any time rewards come too easily they lose their value as incentives. This can cause important conditioned behaviors to cease entirely (become "extinct") when the incentive vanishes.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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It may seem sad that giving the players what they want is detrimental to the players overall length of enjoyment of the game, but thats the truth, says Eric Heimburg, the lead engineer and producer on Asherons Call, and the systems designer for the upcoming Star Trek online MMO. Once you reached that top of the hill, if theres nothing left to do or see, players are likely to move on. Length of enjoyment (equals) amount of money earned, so developers have a strong incentive to keep players from gaining power and levels too quickly.
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This guy again? The guy works on one published MMO (AC2) and suddenly he's an industry expert because he writes one blog? Perfect example of one internet journalist using material from another from a half-credible source (this comes to mind). He's not even working on Star Trek Online, because Perpetual lost out to Cryptic, so even his credentials are mis-cited in the article. Heck, his current project is a puzzle game 
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The funny thing is: AC2 failed BIG TIME (closed down within its first year); so, sorry, but I don't think I'd call the Dev of a failed MMO a 'credible source'.
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The appeal to authority isn't necessary, though. I think his point makes sense.
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That point early in the article makes sense, his quote to end the article though:
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City of Heroes decision to punish players for infractions the players cannot predict is rather unusual, Heimburg remarks. When competing superhero-based MMOs become available, that could be a problem.
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...is the same misinformation being repeated by the small (but vocal) group of angry posters here.
Positron already explained that only completely obvious infractions could be penalized. No players should be "sitting on pins and needles" as the article states.
It's a shame to see that negativity going beyond these boards.
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The appeal to authority isn't necessary, though. I think his point makes sense.
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That point early in the article makes sense, his quote to end the article though:
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City of Heroes decision to punish players for infractions the players cannot predict is rather unusual, Heimburg remarks. When competing superhero-based MMOs become available, that could be a problem.
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...is the same misinformation being repeated by the small (but vocal) group of angry posters here.
Positron already explained that only completely obvious infractions could be penalized. No players should be "sitting on pins and needles" as the article states.
It's a shame to see that negativity going beyond these boards.
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ROFL. I don't think thats a quote. Its more the conclusion any sane person would draw. If you doubt me try explaining the situation to someone you know. Don't leave out the part where people are just supposed to know what the devs think is right and wrong.
What I find sad is that the desire to be on the right side of the Devs (Fruit basket anyone ?) has so warped perceptions that many dodn't even see how far off base they are.
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Its more the conclusion any sane person would draw.
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I'd say it's more a conclusion a paranoid or guilt-ridden person might draw, myself. A sane person would realize the developers don't want to push the majority of their players to the point that they may quit. I mean, it would be kind of counterproductive for them to do so ...
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Its more the conclusion any sane person would draw.
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I'd say it's more a conclusion a paranoid or guilt-ridden person might draw, myself. A sane person would realize the developers don't want to push the majority of their players to the point that they may quit. I mean, it would be kind of counterproductive for them to do so ...
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Go with my experiment above. Heck Don't even tell them just show a random person (Random as in has no idea who positron is) posi's posts and ask them how he comes off.
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Go with my experiment above. Heck Don't even tell them just show a random person (Random as in has no idea who positron is) posi's posts and ask them how he comes off.
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You'd lose that bet.
"Offenses so egregious that no one would question their intent" are something everyone is okay with penalizing.
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Go with my experiment above. Heck Don't even tell them just show a random person (Random as in has no idea who positron is) posi's posts and ask them how he comes off.
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Still not proof of sanity. It's proof of mass paranoia, more than anything else. Just because the majority spazzes and misinterprets and overreacts doesn't make them right.
I'm still waiting for someone to actually post "My character was deleted / rolled back". They didn't say they'd be banned from the game -- which would mean nobody could post their horror story -- just that they MIGHT lose access to the character. Has anybody come here to talk about the actions taken by the evil devs and protest innocence? No.
It's not quite the mass pandemic of slaughter people are assuming to be, regardless of how MANY are assuming it to be.
Global @Twoflower / MA Creator & Pro Indie Game Developer.
Mission Architect Works: DIY Laser Moonbase (Dev Choice!), An Internship in the Fine Art of Revenge (2009 MA Award Winner!) and many more! Plus Brand New Arcs for Issue 21!
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What I find sad is that the desire to be on the right side of the Devs (Fruit basket anyone ?) has so warped perceptions that many dodn't even see how far off base they are.
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Ya know, what I find sad is that you think you are making a point. I'd like to show some random people on the street your posts from the last 2 weeks and ask them how you come off.
Believe me, it isn't good.
Yeah, I sent a gift to the Devs. You think that has bought me some kind of favor? If so, I'd love to know what it is, because so far it has eluded me. I must have forgotten to read the "Now that you are in the Devs Secret Club, here's what you can do" packet that came in the mail.
Here's the real secret: If you send them something, they say thank you and move on with their lives, like normal people. Before you go casting aspersions, maybe you should look in the mirror, why are you hung up on something that the parties involved have already moved on from?
Look at where your argument has come to. Who are you to assign people motives? What makes you correct? It is just poor style, and it does nothing to advance your "cause". You know what though, you've been spinning your wheels for two weeks, I doubt there is anything I can say that will make you come out of that bunker and take off the tinfoil hat.
Do carry on....
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Go with my experiment above. Heck Don't even tell them just show a random person (Random as in has no idea who positron is) posi's posts and ask them how he comes off.
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You'd lose that bet.
"Offenses so egregious that no one would question their intent" are something everyone is okay with penalizing.
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First I said the post. Not just the snippets you like to try and browbeat people with.
Second I already won, unless the wired reporter is one of the "Minority" that were upset with it.
Failing that. you must think that the upset and angry people had such an ability to persuade we simply overwhelmed the hall monitors and fun police.
Outside of the groupthink that occurs in the offices of paragon studious and the forumites on these boards, highhanded tactics and threatening epistles like posis don't go over to well.
I really like the game but as I said earlier it saddens me to see it can't get out of its own. Everything that was cited as an exploit and removed was reported as a problem to the devs prior to launch. They ignored it. Whats more you had people on the boards complaining about being ignored. To have posi lash out, and yes that is what happened, and try to cause fear in his customers was out and out wrong. That kind of non professionalism makes me worry that I am playing the wrong game. I will probably keep playing this one at least till I see better. Of course before this I really wasn't looking for better. Now I am. It has already cost NCSOFT about 60 bucks worth of extra slots, and magic packs I haven't boght. I don't know how many others said Hmmm lets see how this works out before throwing money at something we might not be using.
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Yeah, I sent a gift to the Devs. You think that has bought me some kind of favor? If so, I'd love to know what it is, because so far it has eluded me. I must have forgotten to read the "Now that you are in the Devs Secret Club, here's what you can do" packet that came in the mail.
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Ogon its not all about you. There have been others.
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People, generally, only consider media biased when it contradicts or is at odds with their existing world view.
If you read that article and felt it was biased then it was not written for you.
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Err, bias isn't subjective. The article is clearly trying to paint the devs and their decision in a very negative light. Consider the comparisons, Myanmar and McCarthy. Note the lack of Posi's full quote:
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Only the worst of the worst, exploitive, powerlevelled characters will be removed from the game. We dont take retroactive punishments lightly, but some offenses are so egregious that no one would question their intent and those ill-gotten gains should be dealt with.
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Note the not-even-trying-to-be-subtle suggestion that the playerbase should be quitting over this. And that's ignoring all the flat-out mistakes, such as the wrong title for Heimburg and the wrong label on the screenshot.
This is a biased article. That can't be argued. If it's an editorial, opinion piece, that's okay; those are expected to be biased. But it reads like it's supposed to be a typical informative article, and the bias kills it and does despicable things to its corpse.
We'll always have Paragon.
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Go with my experiment above. Heck Don't even tell them just show a random person (Random as in has no idea who positron is) posi's posts and ask them how he comes off.
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Still not proof of sanity. It's proof of mass paranoia, more than anything else. Just because the majority spazzes and misinterprets and overreacts doesn't make them right.
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:: Does a double take ::
I really can't respond to that kind of logic. You are saying that if people who don't even play the game and have nothing to worry about see his posts as being wrong, its the world thats paranoid ?
I am sorry that rabit hole goes far too deep for me.
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Yeah, I sent a gift to the Devs. You think that has bought me some kind of favor? If so, I'd love to know what it is, because so far it has eluded me. I must have forgotten to read the "Now that you are in the Devs Secret Club, here's what you can do" packet that came in the mail.
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Ogon its not all about you. There have been others.
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I'm aware. I wasn't saying it was all about me.
Going out on a limb here, but I'll say that the others had a very similar experience.
So, feel free to insert the idea of "others" wherever I referred to myself above if you like.
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To have posi lash out, and yes that is what happened, and try to cause fear in his customers was out and out wrong.
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Positron didn't cause any fear. The general paranoia was caused by too many people believing forum posters or in-game broadcasts instead of reading his post themselves.
The changes to MA, even the ticket cap, effect very, very few players in this game. This is not the big deal some bitter posters make it out to be.
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Positron didn't cause any fear. The general paranoia was caused by too many people believing forum posters or in-game broadcasts instead of reading his post themselves.
The changes to MA, even the ticket cap, effect very, very few players in this game. This is not the big deal some bitter posters make it out to be.
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Precisely. What's more, it's those few bitter posters that raise a big stink and cause the illusion that it's a major issue when there's really not much to it.
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To have posi lash out, and yes that is what happened, and try to cause fear in his customers was out and out wrong.
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Positron didn't cause any fear. The general paranoia was caused by too many people believing forum posters or in-game broadcasts instead of reading his post themselves.
The changes to MA, even the ticket cap, effect very, very few players in this game. This is not the big deal some bitter posters make it out to be.
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Yes you are sane everyone else isn't.
P.S. Bitter ? ? Wishful thinking on your part ?
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Positron didn't cause any fear. The general paranoia was caused by too many people believing forum posters or in-game broadcasts instead of reading his post themselves.
The changes to MA, even the ticket cap, effect very, very few players in this game. This is not the big deal some bitter posters make it out to be.
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Precisely. What's more, it's those few bitter posters that raise a big stink and cause the illusion that it's a major issue when there's really not much to it.
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LOL people wanting to know what the rules are hardly qualifies as bitter. Observing what is incredibly obvious to most people but seems to escape forum posters doesn't qualify you as bitter.
If anything the RPers really come off as the faction wearing hair shirts and whipping themselves.
Kinda funny though, during the whole meow farm, etc. Yeah, I did it a good chunk, varying through about 4-5 chars, getting one 10-15 levels here, near 25, there, but thats spread out over a couple weeks. I did get burnt out a bit, but thats cause I was playing a lot, and Im a near 4 year vet. Now, since this whole thing started, and moreso, cause they cut down ticket caps, I barely feel like playing. So, it can go either way. I was having fun, and now I just feel, meh.
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If you doubt me try explaining the situation to someone you know. Don't leave out the part where people are just supposed to know what the devs think is right and wrong.
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Don't forget to include the fact that there are characters that still have an incompleted "meow farm" active that haven't been punished.
Do you actually know anyone that was banned or had a character removed? Or are you just... paranoid? 
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If you doubt me try explaining the situation to someone you know. Don't leave out the part where people are just supposed to know what the devs think is right and wrong.
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Don't forget to include the fact that there are characters that still have an incompleted "meow farm" active that haven't been punished.
Do you actually know anyone that was banned or had a character removed? Or are you just... paranoid?
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I would have to change disguises and make certain no one was watching me before I could answer that question.
re:
Deevian:[ QUOTE ]
Me:[ QUOTE ]
"Thats left players sitting on pins and needles"
Um, no it hasn't. But then again, it isn't a problem for me, I don't exploit, I actually enjoy the experience itself, not power leveling.
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Wow, you must be some sort of saint and be better than nearly EVERYBODY else in the world. If only the world had more people like you, it would instantly turn into a fun-having utopia.
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Well, no of course I'm no saint. I'm not going to say I'm better than most, but I'm certainly better than some. I'm also thinking it would depend greatly on the topic and other factors as to my winner, loser, or middling status.
But if the world did have more people like me, then yes, I daresay it would *indeed* do exactly that whole fun-having utopia, so you're about at a 50% correctness rate, if I do say so my humble self. Wait...
---
I should have rephrased that to read "Um, no, not me, it hasn't. But then again,..." and the rest of it. I certainly do not speak for the entire world, that would be arrogant, yeah?
August 31, 2012. A Day that will Live in Infamy. Or Information. Possibly Influence. Well, Inf, anyway. Thank you, Paragon Studios, for what you did, and the enjoyment and camaraderie you brought.
This is houtex, aka Mike, signing off the forums. G'night all. - 10/26/2012
Well... perhaps I was premature about that whole 'signing off' thing... - 11-9-2012
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Outside of the groupthink that occurs in the offices of paragon studious and the forumites on these boards, highhanded tactics and threatening epistles like posis don't go over to well.
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The only mistake Posi made was using his "dad voice", although I certainly understand why he did. His content was spot on and never threatened the player base, but did threaten (and meant to) certain individuals exhibiting certain behavior. Most rational people would read it as "well, he sounds pretty pissed, but...so?". Not as "OMG, he's going to go on a mass toon/account deleting party!! DOOOOOOOM!"
Dec out.
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Outside of the groupthink that occurs in the offices of paragon studious and the forumites on these boards, highhanded tactics and threatening epistles like posis don't go over to well.
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The only mistake Posi made was using his "dad voice", although I certainly understand why he did. His content was spot on and never threatened the player base, but did threaten (and meant to) certain individuals exhibiting certain behavior. Most rational people would read it as "well, he sounds pretty pissed, but...so?". Not as "OMG, he's going to go on a mass toon/account deleting party!! DOOOOOOOM!"
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Yup
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The appeal to authority isn't necessary, though. I think his point makes sense.
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I have to disagree. While I follow all the logic in the article, most of the language used is inflammatory, and there's a glaring lack of data or hard evidence. Overall, I think the article is poorly researched, and the quotations by this particular authority are used in a crass attempt to disguise the lack of effort. So the credentials of said authority become important, because if you remove them, the article basically consists of an overly-dramatic cocktail of forum posts.
And saying there's drama on the forums is sort of like saying there's water in the ocean.
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I have to agree. The author took the lazy man's method of research in order to prove his argument, one point based off of a poor reference. Although I could easily see a blogger who's worked on three or even two published MMOs as credible, this one doesn't fit the bill of expert testimony. Although I see merits in the article itself, trying to pass off Eric's blog as credible adversely erodes credibility.
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Not defending the author's tone or his data sources. As far as I know, legitimate studies on this type of thing as pertains to video games is lacking. So all we can go on is what we thinks makes sense. So I'm saying I think his point sounds reasonable, regardless of if he sounded like a jerk or pretended like he "knows."
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