Heavens_Agent

Aw, the winning entry reminds me of the failed TCG; I really liked that game.

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[u]Inaugural Slurpie Edition Pair-Ups! Originals![u]

Heavens Agent - Bishop of Battle/Crestent

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Actually, Bishop of Battle's not mine; I submitted Brimstone Dragon.

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This thread is not about you.

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Never claimed it was, my dear londerwost.

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Now you do sound like a troll. Maybe we were wrong?

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Nah, just a bit giddy this evening. Started a new job this week, so this is the first true weekend I've had since February. And I've been going since 3:00 this morning, so I'm a bit out of sorts; I imagine any posts I make tonight will reflect that.

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This thread is not about you.

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Never claimed it was, my dear londerwost.

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This is old news. We've figured out that HA is not a griefer but rather just weird.

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I've known he's just weird for some time now. He ... I ... we ... wouldn't have it any other way.

I do rate harshly, I readily admit; my personal tastes seem to differ greatly from much of the community. And I don't pull any punches, so to speak. But I receive actual thanks from time to time, and often invitations to revisit a modified arc. I love that. So I'm going to stay weird.

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The only issue here is that Geek's arc does have a disclaimer in the description text that XP can be affected by EB/allies. He's very upfront about it, so it isn't like this was an accidental oversight.

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It's not a matter of the xp; I didn't take any stars away for that. I was quite simply unimportant in the big climax of the story, which in turn made me very bored.

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And while some of those complaints may have no valid answer (who's seriously going to explain time travel in 1000 characters or less?) some of them were pretty damning (if you only have to free one EB and never fire a power again, something went wrong in your play balancing).

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Well, first of all he exaggerated that ...

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I did no such thing. I rescued a single one of the EBs and then spent the rest of the mission walking around the map and watching him free his contemporaries and defeat the big villains all on his own.

Tacky_Tricky, with Alex a very close second.

EDIT: You know what, forget it. I stand by my rating, and I shouldn't need to justify it to the spectators. It's not worth it. Though if you want to read my actual critique, rather than the incomplete and misquoted synopsis, it would seem Geek is up for sharing.

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Least you're aiming low. Then you can't really fail can you? Hope the low bar doesn't effect how much effort you put into especially since it seems like you're taking a long time for an average rating.

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I'd hardly call aiming for a middle-of-the-road rating a "low bar". And don't worry, it's not having an impact on the quality of the arc. I just feel it's not one that will appeal to most out there; it has an origins story as a subplot, though the primary series of events is separate from it.

But at any rate, this whole thing has taken the thread off topic. Time to put this particular line of discussion to bed and let the posts find their way back to the tracks, as it were.

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You really, honestly think this is a one star arc? REALLY? It sounds like you're being insanely petty and have an axe to grind, to be honest. That or you're purposely picking a high-profile arc and 1-starring it to try and 'prove' there's no ratings griefing going on, I think, based on my experiences with the average quality of MA arcs in general. Think about it:

Given the literally tens of thousands of missions that are blatant farms, brokenly unplayable, filled with typos or are written by illiterates, outright inappropriate, don't even HAVE text or contacts, are just a stock NPC with all text being 'meow', have blatantly untested NPCs, have a plot as deep, literally, as 'There's a guy here beat him up I dunno lol!' etc. etc. etc... you still feel that the arc, which if nothing else has carefully selected maps, well-written, intelligent dialog, a good sense of humor and adventure, a coherent plot, and nice-looking custom enemies, and a unique gimmick I've seen literally nowhere else...deserves the lowest possible 'normal' rating? Really? I'm interested in hearing why you feel that the arc is on the same level as the absolute filth and dregs of the MA. Have you even PLAYED other MA arcs? I don't want to sound fanboyish here, (I'm not even on the same server as Geek,) but seriously, even if you hated the plot and the NPCs, you put it on the same tier as the worst of the worst in the game? Come on now.

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I don't think it belongs in the same tier as the worst of the worst; the dregs of the MA, as you put it, are the ones I feel deserve 0 Stars.

Do I believe Speeding Through Time deserves 1 Star? Yes, I do. I didn't enjoy myself, felt my character had no impact on events, and didn't feel the plot was particularly well thought out or implemented. If an arc is combat-based, I want to have fun and be challenged while serving a vital role in the plot. If it's story based, I look for a well-defined plot and theme with good execution. I felt this arc lacked both.

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I want to see what you consider a 5-star arc if you think Speeding Through Time is really one of the worst of the worst. Please, give me some arc numbers of 'good' arcs for comparison here. I'd like to see the review too, so I can see what he did that's so henious that you think the arc is ratings-equivalent to the scummiest of scum arcs the MA has to offer.

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I can send you a PM of what I feel are good arcs if you'd like. As for the review (it's really more of a critique), that's up to Geek; he mentioned he had a thread for feedback on his arc, and I gave him the go ahead to post it there.

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EDIT: This isn't about "I didn't get any xp during this mission" issue is it? Because that's all that's really wrong with that particular mission. It's a story, go with it.

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Nope; couldn't care less about xp gain.

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See, I would never want anyone like you reviewing my arc because you don't bring anything to the table but how to make the arc more to your own liking. There is nothing functional about your critique, simply generalizations of your own feelings.

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It's your prerogative to say so, but at the same time such things probably shouldn't be said without seeing the critique first.

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As far as 1 star, it is an insult. Saying an arc is "poor" is an insult and adds nothing from a critique point of view. And I wouldn't rate yours as 1 star if you put effort into it.

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Maybe that's a flawed point of view. Any arc isn't going to appeal to everyone; all an author can hope for is to appeal to the largest audience possible. No matter what one publishes, there will always be those out there that don't care for it.

These differing opinions aren't any less valid, even if they don't coincide with the opinions of the majority. It's the role of the author to decide if the arc should be revisited to address the concerns of these folks. That said, a good arc should have enough high-end ratings to outweigh those that didn't enjoy it. That's how a rating system works.

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I'm curious, have you made any arcs? Do you even know the functions and limitations of MA?

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Been working on one for some time now; been taking me a while to overcome (at least to my liking) the very limitations you mention. I'm aiming for a 3 Star average for myself, at least for my first arc.

I reserve 0-Stars for the few you mention that don't put thought into their arc. In my mind, and by my rating system, 1-5 are valid ratings for an arc based on how it played. Geek may have put a lot of work into it, but it felt like I was watching a movie, and not taking part in events.

In fact, during the big climax I only used powers once, to free the first EB ally I encountered. He was sufficient to free the rest of the EB ally army without assistance, which was then able to defeat the enemy EBs with no help from me. I played no role in the mission at all, and there was no way my character was the focus of the plot.

In my mind, any arc where the player is not the focus starts at 3 Stars. The aforementioned plot holes, poor execution, and overpowered and overused allies were sufficient in my opinion to drop it to 1. This does bring up a question in my mind, however; why is 1-Star so bad in your opinion that you feel it shouldn't be given out? The game defines 1-Star as "Poor", which I feel this arc is. It seems like a valid rating; why do you consider it overzealous?

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One was from someone who I'll let stay anonymous who wrote me the longest, most hilariously bad review I've seen since John Petric saw Def Leopard a few years back.

Well, except he can be entertaining on purpose.

It was obviously given because this person wanted to prove that some of us saying that the ratings griefing is systematic should reconsider and instead think that we deserved those 1's and 0's. They have a novel approach, though. Everyone else just told me I was full of it and ignored empirical evidence. This guy actually went through the trouble of playing my arc and thinking he was proving a point.

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That anonymous individual would be me. I 1-Starred the arc because I didn't enjoy it, felt it was poorly executed, and had blatant plot holes.

There is a problem with 1-Star grieffing, I'm not even going to try denying that. I never intended to. I have good friends who have likely been the victim of such. Nor did I set out to prove a point. I simply did not like the arc.

To believe every 0 and 1-Star rating is a grief rating is idiotic. Just because you and others feel your arc should deserve a certain minimum rating doesn't mean everyone else will. And those that didn't like it may very well rate the arc as such. This was the case in this instance.

As an aside, if you decide to ridicule someone when they actually make an attempt to provide feedback after rating your arc poorly, perhaps you shouldn't be surprised or upset when no one else tells you why they gave your arc a low rating. I made sure to provide you with such after you claimed to be upset by the fact that none had. That's why I made sure to do so. But your obvious contempt for my thoughts makes me feel I should have simply 1-Starred your arc and remained silent as well.

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Heavens_Agent, did this first picture have stone arms and feet? If so, I think I clicked and really liked it but didn't get a good look at it to "borrow" it! Can you link it again?

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Sure thing:

Tellurion

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If you're willing to put down commissioned artwork for a Steampunk game then by all means post about it in this thread. But I don't want to pay money to people who don't have an interest in the game itself, and are only doing the pieces for money.

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Now that's a REALLY bad and short-sighted decision. Who cares what the concept artists think of the game? As long as they do their job, create the images you describe based on the vision you tell them, it shouldn't matter whether they have a personal interest in the game or not.

You're not looking for the game's community in these folks, you're looking for the professionals that will get this project moving. In fact, a concept artist that isn't emotionally invested in the project, that isn't particularly a fan of steampunk, will likely do better work than one that is. Folks that are fans of the genre will have their creative ability skewed by what they personally think such a game should or shouldn't have; rather than come up with truly great and unique imagery, they're more likely to go off on artistic tangents based on their personal views rather than what is needed.

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And hopefully we will find an investor or twelve. =-3

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I'll tell you right now, you've got a long way to go until you'll find those investors. I'm a business major, with the same training and knowledge as those you'll have to convince. I'm also a gamer, a fan of steampunk, and a pushover when it comes to matters of another's dreams. And you've managed to convince me of only one thing: this project is a non-starter.

You mentioned being the lens that will shine brightly, the one to bring those qualified for a such a project together. My advice is to forget such a concept. Yours' is the face of a fan, not of a developer, not a leader. You are in a worse situation then not having credibility; you'll actually hurt the project by attempting to be a part of it in such a capacity. You could change this if you put in the time, but you said that such time is something you don't have.

You'll find folks that think this is a great idea. But without your own credibility, they'll just be fans as well. You won't get the individuals you need to pull this off.

I recommend attempting to find someone like-minded within your existing circles, perhaps someone from the Bay area steampunk scene, who already has the credentials for such an undertaking. Convince him or her to take point on this. You can help them, but that individual needs to be the guiding light.

In any event, I do wish you luck; I hope I'm proven wrong.

It's good that you're devoted to the concept, but Lightslinger's remarks are golden in this case. As is, you lack the know-how, the credentials, the funding to drive such an undertaking. You're not going to be able to take this anywhere until you obtain some of them yourself, and ultimately you're going to need all of them to succeed.

You have a dream; it's a start, but nothing more. Now you need to work toward achieving that dream on a personal level, before you'll be able to marshal others to follow you and bring it to life.

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Hence why I'm asking for help from people on the forums. Someone might know someone with a bit of dosh lying around they'd be willing to sink into the game, after all. Or be willing to work pro-bono at the start until we can find a production company to pitch to and let them foot the bill.

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There's two very different scenarios you're rolling into one, there.

If you intend to pitch the idea to an existing publisher, you shouldn't need too much help or cash for development. You shouldn't need to do any real coding or design, as it would all likely be changed by any company that picks it up anyway. Unfortunately, in such a scenario the game would cease to be yours, and most likely anyone willing to take up the idea would go in directions you wouldn't want to pursue. If you can find a company to undertake such an investment in the first place; new MMORPGs are hardly a booming industry, and companies would be wary of undertaking such a project even if the economy were in a healthy state.

The second scenario, seeking like-minded individuals from various communities to get the idea off the ground, is going to have to be a professional undertaking to even meet the quality of graphics and gameplay exhibited in games such as Gatheryn. You'd have to form a company in order to obtain funding, including hiring employees to fulfill the basic necessities. You or another leader in said company would need a business degree or at least practical experience to even get meetings with most prospective investors. And even if you could get meetings with these folks, you still have to convince them it's a worthwhile investment; the same issues with trying to find an established company to foot the bill also apply here.

In short, an MMORPG title with even last-generation capabilities and functions is anything but a casual undertaking.

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I'm not sure I'd take something a pedestrian said as canon, it could be intended as a widely accepted rumor, not necessarily fact.

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Agreed, especially when a lot of what pedestrians say is linked to the players that happen to have passed them recently. That said, the fact remains that the arc does sport some inaccuracies in regard to canonical history.

That's not it, either. It was something rather new, either just entering the final stage of development or recently released.

You say you want something more graphically polished; what sort of a budget and time line are you looking at for this project? And do you already have your investors ready?

That's not the one I was thinking of; I'll have to see if I can't find the site.

I thought there was already a Steampunk-themed MMORPG in the works.

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Historically Marchand was killed by the Red Widow, which is written on history plaques so presumably isn't much of a secret.

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Y'sure? The only reference I can find is the Red Widow's assassination of The Weaver.

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Actually, the plaque state Marchand was killed in 1964, not in an assassination but when Recluse decided to level the buildings he and his followers were hiding in.

It can be found in in Grandville, /loc 2766, -340, 793. The plaque is also accurately recorded at the Paragon Wiki.

EDIT: Though I do like the first costume design I came up with, I realized it didn't quite fit the theme you described. Hopefully the revised version will be more of what you're looking for.

Denizen

And in case you don't fancy the look, here's my own Fiery Melee/Dark Armor Brute for your consideration. Maybe it'll spark your creative juices.

Brimstone Dragon

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Technical question: What I would like to do is have mission four dependent upon success/failure of mission three. Basically, if the players fail, mission four happens as normal, but if they succeed, mission four is skipped. Is there a way to do this?

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Nope. Mission four will occur regardless of the success of failure of the previous missions.

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I've got a custom enemy group (themed lackeys of my mastermind character), and I want to make sure the difficulty is on par with what people expect. Is having the minion and LT powersets on hard a bad idea?

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Generally, you want to keep your rank and file on standard difficulty. I would only recommend changing this if either you want the mob to have a specific power, or you're using an underpowered powerset.

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I have two mid-arc bosses. Should they be elite or normal bosses? I'm afraid at high levels normal bosses will be too easy for a "powerful foe."

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It depends on their purpose in the story. If their primary role is to build your plot, make them bosses. They'll still do their job, and there's little chance that they'll break the sense of urgency you should be building. On the other hand, you could make them EBs in an attempt to create a challenge. But you then take the risk of your plot peaking too early and not being able to recover before the end. This would result in a lackluster and very forgetful AV battle.

Also keep in mind how strong you envision these characters to be; player characters are roughly as strong as a boss, so if you envision them to be as strong as a player this is what you should aim for. This is also very important if you're basing them off character's you've created; folks don't like to play arcs where the author's character is inherently stronger than them. It basically feels like the author is saying he or she is better than everyone else.

As a final thought on the matter, characters with the power of EBs are supposed to be rare in the game. Player characters are the exception to the norm, and as I mentioned we're only at boss level. Make sure there's valid plot reasons for these characters to exhibit such greater firepower.

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The final boss of the arc will be a mastermind, and I'm thinking he should be an AV. Could the combo of MM and AV be too difficult?

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I don't think the combination will be to difficult. That said, remember what I said about EBs being rare, and player characters only being boss level. AV/Hero-level power is even rarer, and you need a good story to explain why/how this character has obtained such power. Usually I only want to see an AV at the end of a multi-arc plot, the final challenge of a plot that's been building for some time.

Finally, if this AV is based on your character, you'd better have one doozy of a reason why he's not at boss level.

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Last question, I promise. I've added an ally to the last mission. Is the mission failed if the ally dies? If the boss is an AV, what should the ally be? Elite Boss or just Boss?

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As long as one of the required objectives isn't to rescue the ally, his defeat shouldn't impact the mission.

As for power level, first you need to ask if he's really needed; does this ally add to the plot? If not, show him the door. If he does, make sure he's no more than boss level, even LT if he has overly powerful or useful powersets. Your ally shouldn't be a factor in the final fight. The players are the stars of your story, and they should be able to bring down the final boss on their own. If they need an ally to defeat the final challenge, your boss is overpowered; you don't want the players feeling upstaged by your NPC ally.


And as a final thought on all the questions you've asked:

ALWAYS REMEMBER!
Give fair warning of difficult challenges (EBs, AVs, Timed Missions, etc.) before the player enters the mission. Nothing worse than playing an arc only to come up against a fabricated brick wall and having to scramble to complete it.