My eyes are opened!
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2009-05-17 17:19 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I agree that discussion is good.
I agree that the devs will not run with this idea.
They want blasters to be more efficient at damage dealing than the defender.
They want tanks to be more efficient at taking damage.
They want scrappers to be more efficient at dishing it out.
Why else would defenders get an endurance buff when their team is dying?
Be well, people of CoH.
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Controllers specifically were designed to not be able to solo very fast, they had next to no attacks.
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Fixed that statement for you. I solo'd a Controller in Issue 1. Did so quite well.
As I stated before, The Tank, Defender, Controller, and Blaster were designed to be team players. All the ATs were designed to be played, solo, from 1 to 50. They were not designed to take on the same things with equal ease or speed.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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What I mean is that if endurance use was relative to power effect (damage was the easiest to discuss), then there would be balance. That would mean that people would use endurance relative to the amount of damage an attack caused. The endurance used by toggles would be relative to the amount of defense it provides.
I don't see how this could unbalance anything. It's not going to add power to anyone, it's just going to ensure that no one pays more for less.
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Interestingly enough, this is the way it already is when you look at it within the same AT. A Tanker pays as much for his damage as any other Tanker does. A Scrapper (except for a claws Scrapper because that's their shtick!) will pay as much for his damage as any other Scrapper does. It not exact, but it's close enough (cuz Arcanatime screws with everything!).
Your (and Starsman's) problem is that you want every point to cost the same over all ATs. I (and most of the people that agree with me) don't really see that as a valid point. There isn't a definite game balance reason that has yet been posed as to why a change like this should occur just so that Tankers (and Defenders feasibly) will be capable of attacking without a break for longer than any other AT just because they do less damage and are, by game design, less endurance efficient at it.
Well, I've had another experience tonight that may illustrate why I have a problem with this.
I made a mission on the MA (it's the first of what will be an arc). This mission pits the character against Mooks. They're a group that falls below L20. The mission objective is to defeat a boss. All aspects of the mission are set to minimum difficulty. The character is playing on Heroic.
It took my Defender (FF/EB) 3 and a half hours to do this mission. It took my Scrapper (Claws/Regen) 15 minutes.
The reason? The typical spawn was three minions (all yellow - for some reason the MA insists on never using white conn foes). The Defender would go in, constantly blast one with Force Bolt to keep him from attacking, then power bolt one of the others while soaking up the attacks of the third. The only toggle running was Hover. I could have run Dispersion Field, but I would run out of endurance in 3 or four attacks.
Using this strategy, I was out of endurance and health by the time I defeated that one foe.
I would then retreat and Rest. Once back to full health and endurance, I would reengage with the same strategy. Defeating one foe used all my endurance, after which I would turn on PFF and wait to get enough back to fight some more (since rest was still recycling).
Typically, I would have time to go do something else for several minutes. I would have much rather been playing the game, but I don't find sitting doing nothing much fun. The Devs seem to disagree. We're SUPPOSED to have to stop and do nothing for several minutes at a time. If their mantra is to say "is it FUN," then I can only conclude they think standing doing nothing is fun.
My Scrapper, on the other hand, blitzed through the whole mission in the time it took the Defender to deal with one spawn. The reasons were that the Scrapper never had to stop. He did stop once because he'd taken enough damage to warrant a Rest. The Defender was stopping every half a spawn.
The reason is that the Defender was faced with defeating the same foes as the Scrapper. That means he has to do the same amount of damage to complete the mission as the Scrapper. The trouble is that, because he does so little damage for the same endurance cost, he lacks the ability to DO that much damage before he's out of endurance. If his attacks used porportionately less endurance, this would not be the case.
Now, I'll concede that Claws may not be the best set to compare to, if its thing is reduced endurance, but it points out the disparity. Claws is more fun because you don't have to stop playing repeatedly. We should be able to say much the same for any set. Put another way, it's not fun to have to stop all the time, and there shouldn't be any set that's not fun.
I'll also point out that this is only one example of this; I've experienced the same thing on many other characters. However, it seems to be my Tankers and Defenders that suffer from this more than anyone else. Oddly, my Controller has almost no endurance trouble, though he takes FOREVER to complete missions.
First off, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that you just suck. I've soloed plenty on my Defender and never had anywhere near the problems you've had. You should really consider the fact that you're a bad player running with bad slotting rather than some inherent flaw in the game.
Secondly, you're once again comparing the AT that is the worst at soloing with the AT that is the best at soloing. Trying finding something a little less obviously imbalanced for next time.
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First off, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that you just suck. I've soloed plenty on my Defender and never had anywhere near the problems you've had. You should really consider the fact that you're a bad player running with bad slotting rather than some inherent flaw in the game.
Secondly, you're once again comparing the AT that is the worst at soloing with the AT that is the best at soloing. Trying finding something a little less obviously imbalanced for next time.
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Unfortunately, Umbral, that's the crux of all of his complaints to date. He doesn't want to entertain the idea that he might just be bad, or could even be mistaken on what he sees, but would rather lay blame at the game. In effect, he wants the game to change to his style of play, which is pretty reminiscent of another poster who shall remain nameless at this time.
Also, another unfortunate thing here is that he's going to use your "Defenders aren't as good at soloing as a Scrapper is" against you because that's precisely what he wants to change. He's just going about it the wrong way and ignoring a multitude of other facts that were already pointed out earlier.
Frankly, I've come to the conclusion that he just runs up to mobs and tries to spam attacks until something dies. That could explain how he doesn't appear to have a problem with Scrappers, yet every other AT he touches is somehow riddled with "design flaws".
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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Well, I've had another experience tonight that may illustrate why I have a problem with this.
I made a mission on the MA (it's the first of what will be an arc). This mission pits the character against Mooks. They're a group that falls below L20. The mission objective is to defeat a boss. All aspects of the mission are set to minimum difficulty. The character is playing on Heroic.
It took my Defender (FF/EB) 3 and a half hours to do this mission. It took my Scrapper (Claws/Regen) 15 minutes.
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Arc ID ?
I'll take a defender through it, and I doubt it would be more than 30 mins.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Controllers specifically were designed to not be able to solo very SLOOOOOW, they had next to no attacks.
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Fixed that statement for you. I solo'd a Controller in Issue 1. Did so quite well.
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Once he got his pets and loaded up in hasten to summon herds of pets, which was not intended and eventually nerfed. That was, though, one of the points where the devs decided no AT should really be that slow at soloing and doubled the damage the AT did from level 1 thanks to containment while nerfing the pets they found overpowered.
The full intention to this was to make the Controller a solo AT, not just a team one. It was from that patch that the Controller was considered redesigned to solo.
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Well, I've had another experience tonight that may illustrate why I have a problem with this.
I made a mission on the MA (it's the first of what will be an arc). This mission pits the character against Mooks. They're a group that falls below L20. The mission objective is to defeat a boss. All aspects of the mission are set to minimum difficulty. The character is playing on Heroic.
It took my Defender (FF/EB) 3 and a half hours to do this mission. It took my Scrapper (Claws/Regen) 15 minutes.
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Arc ID ?
I'll take a defender through it, and I doubt it would be more than 30 mins.
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Reading through his post again, I've discovered that he's fighting level 20 enemies with just Power Bolt, the weakest attack in the Energy Blast set. Unenhanced, that's around 36 points of damage every 4 seconds for 5 endurance spent. He's spending another 5 endurance every 4 seconds on Force Bolt, again unenhanced.
If this is a character who's only offensive options are Force Bolt and Power Bolt, then we're either dealing with a team-oriented FF/EB Defender (so much so that it forgoes ANY additional offensive output from either FF or EB, akin to the Empath that only takes heal powers and the forced first attack), or it's a character that's below 20 and is being auto-sk'd to the arc, which has a similar effect. So not only is he comparing a Defender to a Scrapper, but he's taking a specific Defender who clearly isn't built to solo.. and comparing it to the best solo AT in the game.
If this Defender isn't 20, please let us know what level it fought the Mooks at, though if your strategy was Force Bolt one, Power Bolt the other, and pray the third didn't wipe you out... it probably won't matter what level you were at, to be honest. This is a terrible strategy to use when all you have a single attack. You sound like you just stood in one spot and didn't try to play games with the guys who could take you out, messing with their AI. Even then, if you're below level 20, they would have scaled down to you and you should have been fine regardless.
You see, Ultimo, this is why nearly everyone is suspect of your "fixes" and "realizations" and your "eye openings". You draw conclusions from faulty evidence.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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It took my Defender (FF/EB) 3 and a half hours to do this mission.
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Your defender is poorly built.
Be well, people of CoH.
I'm afraid I have to agree that the endurance management on Ultimo's character was just bad. Force bolt does .2 damage and uses 5.2 end, it's a waste of 80% endurance. Given this accounted for half his chain it was burning endurance 66% faster than it should. I'm not saying he may not had been forced to this defensive oriented tactics to survive (nor am I saying he was required) but the endurance budget was mostly used for self preservation than for offensive.
His end issues, though had NOTHING to do with the use of Power Bolt, although the power is bad DPS, bad DPS does nothing for your endurance efficiency, as a matter of fact, bad dps chains actually are the equivalent of slowing down, as proposed earlier by BillZ, witch still makes you kill slower than your damage modifier dictates, but gives you slightly more time to recover endurance. I don't think at this level with limited attack selection that makes much difference, thought. At such a level Power Bolt may even be the best attack to use, when no full attack chain is available it's better to relly on attacks that offer better damage over time than ones that offer better damage per second as their quick recharge makes them net in faster killing, but again, only if you don't have a full attack chain.
Whether the Power Bolt itself is too expensive for what it does is an entirely different topic, though. Although it relates to end issues it's not exactly specific to the AT and much more specific to the power.
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It took my Defender (FF/EB) 3 and a half hours to do this mission.
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Your defender is poorly built.
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You read minds? Not to be offensive but we know his defender was played way too defensively, we don't know if he had more attacks but choose these to play it safe. Based on the last time I played my defender (way too long ago) i would say such tactic was overkill against minions but would had been required against bosses (certain bosses even if they went down to lt as I had big issues with certain power selection more than the rank damage itself.)
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It took my Defender (FF/EB) 3 and a half hours to do this mission.
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Your defender is poorly built.
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You read minds? Not to be offensive but we know his defender was played way too defensively, we don't know if he had more attacks but choose these to play it safe. Based on the last time I played my defender (way too long ago) i would say such tactic was overkill against minions but would had been required against bosses (certain bosses even if they went down to lt as I had big issues with certain power selection more than the rank damage itself.)
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Starsman, the fact that you're even attempting to defend a build/player that states it took him over 3 hours to get through a mission on heroic with ANYTHING makes me sad.
If he had stated it was a custom mission with nothing but thugs/pain mastermind EBs, then I could show some tolerance. But mooks? On heroic?
For a player that's been around long enough to have sands of mu and the wand or staff?
There's so much BS in that statement that he's going to need a landmover the size of a small stadium to dig himself out of it.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I'm afraid I have to agree that the endurance management on Ultimo's character was just bad. Force bolt does .2 damage and uses 5.2 end, it's a waste of 80% endurance. Given this accounted for half his chain it was burning endurance 66% faster than it should. I'm not saying he may not had been forced to this defensive oriented tactics to survive (nor am I saying he was required) but the endurance budget was mostly used for self preservation than for offensive.
His end issues, though had NOTHING to do with the use of Power Bolt, although the power is bad DPS, bad DPS does nothing for your endurance efficiency, as a matter of fact, bad dps chains actually are the equivalent of slowing down, as proposed earlier by BillZ, witch still makes you kill slower than your damage modifier dictates, but gives you slightly more time to recover endurance. I don't think at this level with limited attack selection that makes much difference, thought. At such a level Power Bolt may even be the best attack to use, when no full attack chain is available it's better to relly on attacks that offer better damage over time than ones that offer better damage per second as their quick recharge makes them net in faster killing, but again, only if you don't have a full attack chain.
Whether the Power Bolt itself is too expensive for what it does is an entirely different topic, though. Although it relates to end issues it's not exactly specific to the AT and much more specific to the power.
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Except I could have done the very same thing he did, and beat the mission only half as quickly as his Scrapper did (around 30-35 minutes). While he only spent time spamming Force Bolt and Power Bolt, this is exactly how newbies to the game have to kill things with a brand-new FF/EB Defender, and yet, I don't see them complaining about taking 3 hours to beat a heroic mission that's below level 20. My post was more to point out Ultimo's flawed methods of data collection and reasoning than to bring up Power Bolt's DPS.
Specifically, it's taking what is clearly a 100% team build and forcing it to solo. It will all hinge on his combat level at this point, in my opinion. Below around level 7 or 8, having only a single attack can work. Beyond that, if all your other support powers are ally-only, or don't do much to keep you up/kill enemies faster, that single attack will start to become useless for soloing purposes and you'll have to pick up at least one other attack.
For reference, my Dark/Dark Defender, at level 22, solos heroic in Faultline with just using Dark Blast, Gloom, and Twilight Grasp. I save Darkest Night and Tar Patch for bosses (which I don't see on heroic), and EB/AVs, which I ran into plenty of in Faultline. I soloed these EBs without too much effort. Recently grabbing TT on her build has only sped up her endurance usage, presently, but I still mostly use it only against EBs for additional damage when in a pinch (or to immob Sands' drones to keep them around a corner).
Ultimo just doesn't play the game very well and he wants the game to change so he can continue to play it badly, except he wants his bad play to suddenly become good play. I do not support this.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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The need to slow down, however, is a disadvantage not shared by the scrapper. That's a sign of imbalance. This is also why I don't like the argument that Defenders have an advantage in buffing others, and that they pay for that by not having much offense or personal defense. Being able to buff others is not an advantage when solo. Thus, a solo Defennder is more disadvantaged than other classes, and that isn't fair.
The same applies to Tankers relative to Scrappers in this case.
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If I recall correctly, during the installation of the game from the CDs, the various splash/info screens that pop up include a little stub of info on each class. I'm certain that in those stubs, the one about the scrapper actually says the scrapper is the easiest to solo.
That being said, the game was not developed so each AT are as perfectly capable as the other. The original design was to build ATs that were team synergenic. The idea of how soloable each AT took a lower priority then how well do the ATs function together.
It was not a point on the Devs part to make each AT soloable. The point was to promote teaming. That doesn't mean by design there are some ATs that cannot solo. All ATs can be soloed, but some are more challenging and require far greater patience and attention to detail then others.
I have 4 Level 50 tanks. Fire/Fire, SS/Invul, SS/Willpower, and Fire/Ice, I can't say that Endurance is a major issue with any of them except for the Fire/Fire. (Currently they are using either all SOs or all Common IOs, no IO set bonuses).
When looking at taking down a specific number of foes, each AT, by themselves, will take a different amount of time to do it. Scrappers should be able to do it faster then tanks. They simply are not meant to be equal, or equivalent. By design it is feasible that a tank could encounter a foe that they they can fight to a standstill but lack a point or two of damage to defeat. The same foe under the same circumstance could feasibly be defeated by a scrapper. This is by design. (Although, the design was conceived and implemented by humans, and therefor cannot be perfect)
"The one thing that can stop a full team of MasterMinds dead in its tracks... a doorway!" --Frogfather
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It took my Defender (FF/EB) 3 and a half hours to do this mission.
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Your defender is poorly built.
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You read minds? Not to be offensive but we know his defender was played way too defensively, we don't know if he had more attacks but choose these to play it safe. Based on the last time I played my defender (way too long ago) i would say such tactic was overkill against minions but would had been required against bosses (certain bosses even if they went down to lt as I had big issues with certain power selection more than the rank damage itself.)
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Starsman, the fact that you're even attempting to defend a build/player that states it took him over 3 hours to get through a mission on heroic with ANYTHING makes me sad.
If he had stated it was a custom mission with nothing but thugs/pain mastermind EBs, then I could show some tolerance. But mooks? On heroic?
For a player that's been around long enough to have sands of mu and the wand or staff?
There's so much BS in that statement that he's going to need a landmover the size of a small stadium to dig himself out of it.
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/Ultimo_ It's the new jranger.
Seriously though, i don't know how anyone could take 3 hours to solo a mission at level 20 with a Defender other than exemplaring while playing a Defender who is a pure <something>. (H34lz0r, buffer, debuffer, sock puppet.) i have never played a Defender who solos that slowly with any set. i'd be willing to bet that even without vet attacks my FF/Rad could solo it in less than 30 minutes unless the mobs were set to extreme or something. Hell, i'd be willing to take a crack at it with my FF/Archery once i get to 20. i've never been a fan of Energy Blast for whatever reason, so FF/Energy is out.
[i]Edit: D'oh. Mooks, so not custom mobs and no extreme setting. Custom mobs tend to be tougher than regular mobs anyway. Yeah, bring on the mooks; none of my Defenders would spend the fight in Molasses Swamp.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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What I'm after isn't necessarily a buff, it's a more level playing field.
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As far as Stars/Billz' discussion goes, it seems really weird that there's this discussion about tanker survivability, as if tanker survivability isn't designed to be overkill for solo play.
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Starsman, the fact that you're even attempting to defend a build/player that states it took him over 3 hours to get through a mission on heroic with ANYTHING makes me sad.
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I'm not defending him. I'm trying to accuse him of the right crime. We know nothing of his build so far, so we can't judge his build.
We know his tactic, though. And I agree that it was the wrong tactic to follow for the given threat and desired defeat rate.
Perhaps I went too verbose going into the details making you miss my point: in summary I said he used too much endurance heavy control against low threat foes.
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For a player that's been around long enough to have sands of mu and the wand or staff?
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IF he was aiming to compare ATs the use of those powers would be a huge foul that would compromise everything. I don't know if that's why he didnt use the powers though. He may be magic origin using the wand. Since his mind was set on self preservation mode opted to use powers with knockback, entirely discarding the use of the wand. Never mind that killing would had been a more effective option even for survival (due to faster kills) he assumed (admitedly wrong assumption) that knock back would do a better job at keeping him healthy.
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There's so much BS in that statement that he's going to need a landmover the size of a small stadium to dig himself out of it.
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I would use different words but yes, he dig himself a big hole there. Unfortunately, as soon as a rabid dog sees a wounded prey they decide to jump him like... rabid dogs and shred him apart. I rather point at him and tell him what he did wrong so next time he runs the same path he does not fall in the same hole and perhaps come out with more accurate comparisons.
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Except I could have done the very same thing he did, and beat the mission only half as quickly as his Scrapper did (around 30-35 minutes).
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Ah the time is one point I did not even bother going into because the tactic itself was so flawed that I figured it was entirely irrelevant.
I have no in game experience with FF or Energy Blast (in any set, few attacks in my lowbie dom though) So I can't say by experience how long that would take. I have not taken the time to crunch numbers either. So I can't comment on the time other than what I stated in my first sentence: the tactic was so flawed it became irrelevant to a discussion of endurance efficiency.
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Ultimo just doesn't play the game very well and he wants the game to change so he can continue to play it badly, except he wants his bad play to suddenly become good play. I do not support this.
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I can't talk for him but I do think the endurance disparity exists and is a subtle issue that is hard to notice but subliminally strong to the point where some things will feel more fun than other without obvious conscious reasoning. I didn't always used to think about this until I started looking into the possibility that the people mentioning it may be right. Knowing that Arcanaville actually thinks there is merit to the issue reassures me I'm not crazy.
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IF he was aiming to compare ATs the use of those powers would be a huge foul that would compromise everything.
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And you're the mind reader now? You know he's not using them on his scrapper?
Ultimo has a long history, and he's not alone here, of leaving out or flatly ignoring information if it suits his cause to do so.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Except I could have done the very same thing he did, and beat the mission only half as quickly as his Scrapper did (around 30-35 minutes).
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Ah the time is one point I did not even bother going into because the tactic itself was so flawed that I figured it was entirely irrelevant.
I have no in game experience with FF or Energy Blast (in any set, few attacks in my lowbie dom though) So I can't say by experience how long that would take. I have not taken the time to crunch numbers either. So I can't comment on the time other than what I stated in my first sentence: the tactic was so flawed it became irrelevant to a discussion of endurance efficiency.
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Ultimo just doesn't play the game very well and he wants the game to change so he can continue to play it badly, except he wants his bad play to suddenly become good play. I do not support this.
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I can't talk for him but I do think the endurance disparity exists and is a subtle issue that is hard to notice but subliminally strong to the point where some things will feel more fun than other without obvious conscious reasoning. I didn't always used to think about this until I started looking into the possibility that the people mentioning it may be right. Knowing that Arcanaville actually thinks there is merit to the issue reassures me I'm not crazy.
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The reason I mentioned the time difference is because that's what he's going to use to show his Defender is broken. To him, his tactics are sound and should be "good enough", so all arguments that tell him otherwise get brushed off. All he sees is that it took him 3 hours to beat a mission that takes normal people 30 minutes, and suddenly the game isn't balanced properly.
Incidentally, I also mentioned how flawed the tactic was, because I prefer to cover all my bases when in a debate.
I don't think there's an "endurance efficiency" problem, or if there is, it's not significant enough to warrant change. Defenders and Blasters pay the same for their blasts, but Blasters spend more of that energy on the damage part and Defenders spend more of it on the secondary effect part. Or, in the case of some sets, some Defenders are just not as good at channeling their energy into damaging attacks as a Blaster (for those attacks that do less damage without a secondary effect).
The only reason this comes up at all is because the only way to advance your character is to defeat enemies, and to defeat enemies you have to deal damage to them. Damage comparisons are not avoidable, but comparing classes that have a focus on damage to classes that focus on self preservation through defenses instead isn't going to help much, especially in a game that emphasizes team play.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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IF he was aiming to compare ATs the use of those powers would be a huge foul that would compromise everything.
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And you're the mind reader now? You know he's not using them on his scrapper?
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I also think I noted another option about simply IF he wanted to play defensively. I just state IFs, all though, do question the final tactics used.
Let me put it in even shorter words as my pervious one again seem to have been too verbose:
He used the wrong powers for the situation. Test is inaccurate and irrelevant.
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The reason I mentioned the time difference is because that's what he's going to use to show his Defender is broken.
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Im not implying the time should not be questioned, just that even if it was reanalyzed and adjusted it still would be irrelevant to an efficiency discussion. Even if he said 4 hours or 30 minutes, the amount of time was not meaningful and tossed out of the court room.
While judging one should not even taint his future opinions by looking at invalid evidence. That's why I personally avoided it in my post.
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The reason I mentioned the time difference is because that's what he's going to use to show his Defender is broken.
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Im not implying the time should not be questioned, just that even if it was reanalyzed and adjusted it still would be irrelevant to an efficiency discussion. Even if he said 4 hours or 30 minutes, the amount of time was not meaningful and tossed out of the court room.
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You're not listening. This is Ultimo's thread and the time difference is the proof he's going to site whether we like it or not. This is how the man thinks, based on past experiences. It doesn't matter to the rest of the class if we're all on the right page regarding the matter -- he's not going to see it that way.
I also want to point out that a class designed to kill things quickly beating a mission twice as fast as a class designed to help other people achieve power through buffs/debuffs doesn't sound like a problem to me.
My previous post already touched on the "issue" of endurance efficiency, so I won't repost that here.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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What I'm after isn't necessarily a buff, it's a more level playing field. That might even mean a NERF, though I honestly think that would only compound the problems with endurance.
The problem I see is that endurance is not an issue for some characters and is positively gamebreaking for others. I was just hoping to find a way to alleviate the problem in a balanced fashion.
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If this were the case, you wouldn't be comparing scrappers and tanks. Or brutes and tanks.
You'd be comparing powersets with endurance management tools and those without.
An invul/stone tank is going to run dry far more often than a willpower/dark tank, won't he?
Chasing after this concept of "damage should equate to end expenditure" won't get you anywhere. Not in this game.
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What I mean is that if endurance use was relative to power effect (damage was the easiest to discuss), then there would be balance. That would mean that people would use endurance relative to the amount of damage an attack caused. The endurance used by toggles would be relative to the amount of defense it provides.
I don't see how this could unbalance anything. It's not going to add power to anyone, it's just going to ensure that no one pays more for less.
That said, I don't expect a change. The whole discussion is likely just for the sake of discussion alone. On the other hand, you never know. The Devs read these pages, maybe they'll see an idea or an analysis here that they didn't think of, or that sparks an idea that will be good for the game.
Sharing ideas, good and bad, is never a bad thing.