Venture's Reviews II: The Nightmare Continues
By
Aisynia,
Posted on: 2009-05-16 24:40 in Mission Architect
If you can't see what's wrong with that sentence, I can't help you.
If you don't like "World Wide Red" that's your prerogative but it's also not a debate issue. If you're going to argue that it has technical problems, that it doesn't make sense or is too convoluted, you're going to have to show your work. Show me how the pieces don't fit together, or where the loose ends are, or where characters catch the Idiot Ball or are pulling a Xanatos Roulette...show me something. If you can't do that then you don't have an opinion at all.
At the very least answer my earlier question and put up examples of what you think are good canon arcs. What, according to you, is a "straightforward plot"? Is a straightforward plot allowed to have any turns or twists, any reveals at all? Or are we limited to "beat up those guys for doing stuff we don't like"? Show your work.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
LOL at the idea of there being many (if any at all) straightforward plots in a game about superheros.
Also just from reading it Venture's plot in that arc sounds pretty straightforward compared to about 90% of what is in game, AE or non-AE.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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If you can't see what's wrong with that sentence, I can't help you.
If you don't like "World Wide Red" that's your prerogative but it's also not a debate issue. If you're going to argue that it has technical problems, that it doesn't make sense or is too convoluted, you're going to have to show your work. Show me how the pieces don't fit together, or where the loose ends are, or where characters catch the Idiot Ball or are pulling a Xanatos Roulette...show me something. If you can't do that then you don't have an opinion at all.
At the very least answer my earlier question and put up examples of what you think are good canon arcs. What, according to you, is a "straightforward plot"? Is a straightforward plot allowed to have any turns or twists, any reveals at all? Or are we limited to "beat up those guys for doing stuff we don't like"? Show your work.
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Maybe Skarmory means that a Malta story shouldn't be straightforward?
Goodbye, I guess.
@Lord_Nightblade in Champions/Star Trek Online
nightblade7295@gmail.com if you want to stay in touch
The original complaint:
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Way too many missions of the same damn enemy group with a plot that doesn't even try to make sense. At least it gets a sudden and IIRC asspully solve-out in the end, until then it's three plot lines that do not tie together at all.
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Doesn't sound to me like he's complaining it was too simple for Malta.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Dang, that sounds bizarre. I do wonder though, how did he make it so the only way to complete mission 5 was to fail it? Sounds like a fun little trick.
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No, you can actually complete mission 5. It takes much less time than failing it.
His mission 5 text and the wording of the souvenir just makes not completing it a valid outcome.
Up with the overworld! Up with exploration! | Want a review of your arc?
My arcs: Dream Paper (ID: 1874) | Bricked Electronics (ID: 2180) | The Bravuran Jobs (ID: 5073) | Backwards Day (ID: 329000) | Operation Fair Trade (ID: 391172)
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It makes me wonder why they play the game, though. After all, since the argument seems to be that Venture's work is *too* similar to stuff we see created by Devs, it stands to reason that they don't like the Dev's work. That being the case, why play the game?
[/ QUOTE ]Without addressing the rest of your post (because I have no beef with Venture, his arcs or reviews), the easiest answer for me is this: Can't it be both?
If I want content that feels like professionally created, canon-pure developer content, I have an entire game's worth of it right outside the AE walls. If I'm in the mood for comedy, horror stories, historical reimaginings, "What if?" games with the canon, etc then I can find them in the AE.
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And if I want content that feels like etc. etc. that I haven't PLAYED three times already, MA is still the only option.
Up with the overworld! Up with exploration! | Want a review of your arc?
My arcs: Dream Paper (ID: 1874) | Bricked Electronics (ID: 2180) | The Bravuran Jobs (ID: 5073) | Backwards Day (ID: 329000) | Operation Fair Trade (ID: 391172)
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The original complaint:
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Way too many missions of the same damn enemy group with a plot that doesn't even try to make sense. At least it gets a sudden and IIRC asspully solve-out in the end, until then it's three plot lines that do not tie together at all.
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Doesn't sound to me like he's complaining it was too simple for Malta.
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I stand corrected.
Goodbye, I guess.
@Lord_Nightblade in Champions/Star Trek Online
nightblade7295@gmail.com if you want to stay in touch
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It makes me wonder why they play the game, though. After all, since the argument seems to be that Venture's work is *too* similar to stuff we see created by Devs, it stands to reason that they don't like the Dev's work. That being the case, why play the game?
[/ QUOTE ]Without addressing the rest of your post (because I have no beef with Venture, his arcs or reviews), the easiest answer for me is this: Can't it be both?
If I want content that feels like professionally created, canon-pure developer content, I have an entire game's worth of it right outside the AE walls. If I'm in the mood for comedy, horror stories, historical reimaginings, "What if?" games with the canon, etc then I can find them in the AE.
[/ QUOTE ]And if I want content that feels like etc. etc. that I haven't PLAYED three times already, MA is still the only option.
[/ QUOTE ]Absolutely, if you've gone through the "real" stuff already. The point being that merely not wanting to play an arc that feels like Dev content doesn't mean you don't want to ever play any Dev content.
Edit: I'll end my replies here with that since this isn't an AE debate thread.
Arc #170506, "A Midnight Almost Tragedy"
tl;dr: 2 stars. Offenses: "just a bunch of stuff that happens", problematic mobs, missing info text, writing issues
Reviewed on: 6/13/2009
Level Range: 5-54
Character used: Lady Avernus/Virtue
This one has an interesting beginning; the first briefing narrates you as walking down a street in Kings Row when a teenager waves you down screaming that "they" took his friend. When you calm him down he tells you "they" are the Circle of Thorns and after he got away he tracked them to a warehouse on the east side. Inside I almost immediately ran into "Melos", a Plant Control/Thorny Assault Boss (dialed up to Hard at least on the Control, and with no info) who flattened me on the first try. Michael, the friend, runs away ranting when rescued. Bobby seems unusually knowledgeable for a teenager as he realizes the Circle must have tried to possess him only to end up with both souls still in the body.
His Genre Savvyness turns out be a result of having a relic collector for a history teacher. Dr. Cain has an "Omnidirectional Compass" that can point to anyone if you put a sample of their DNA in it. This is way too scientiffy for a magical item, really should be "a drop of blood" or the like, but moving on.... You're off to borrow the compass from Dr. Cain. You end up on the Midnight Club map, which is under attack by the Circle. Dr. Cain is among the casualties. His notes indicate Circle kidnappings are on the rise. You also run into Eliza, who claims to be Michael's brother, an Archery/Trick Arrow Boss ally. The Big Bad is Leukos, an Archery/Radiation Emission Boss.
For Act III, Bobby and Eliza go off to look for Michael (two kids looking for a Circle kidnapping victim? What Could Possibly Go Wrong?) while you hit up your old Contacts for information on recent Circle activity. You get a lead pointing to some caves (Troll type) with four hostages. One of these turns out to be a Midnighter Boss with Electric Blast/Storm Summoning (Boss), an ally...just what my Tanker wanted, a moron AI armed with knockback powers. Between her and another Midnighter hostage you learn that a Circle mage named Thanatos has developed an "easier way" of possessing people, and the Circle has acquired a large stash of nerve gas which they play to use to kill lots of people at once so they can steal all the bodies. Um, you kind of need them alive for that, but whatever... The gas is conveniently stored in these caves so you destroy it.
When you get back and check in, you have two emails waiting. One, from Bobby and Eliza, says they've tracked Michael to Oranbega and they're going in, marking them as Darwin Award candidates. The other, from Karol (from the last act) says they've tracked Thanatos down and are sending a task force to help take him out. Both give GPS co-ordinates and of course, they're all going to the same place. Michael turns out to be under the control of a Circle Boss named Pellas, a Broadsword/Fiery Aura. Between spawning at +2 and me being an Invul/Fire Tanker it was almost impossible to hurt him; I pretty much brought him down with AirSup, Blackwand and temp powers. This pretty much wiped out my inspiration tray. Thanatos turned out to be a Mind Control/Ice Assault (I think) EB, glad I bothered to hit Unstoppable first.... You get an "ambush" of Midnighters to help you as you beat him down whether you want them or not. This (and the ally, Eliza, I bypassed) is not all that helpful when the Big Bad has Confuse. Fortunately between Gauntlet and Invinc I had plenty of Taunt on him. Anyway, you do have to free Eliza to finish the mission (Bobby was nowhere in sight, and no explanation given after the fact). In the debriefing he thanks you and says the Midnighters are going to help exorcise Mike.
The arc has no theme, some problematic mobs and writing issues. While I could understand using custom Bosses due to level range issues making it hard to guarantee human models, the Bosses don't use powers that are typically used by the Circle, making them rather gratuitous. (The BS/FA one was particularly egregious, and extremely problematic for a number of builds as well.) It needs work.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Arc #97774, "A Simple Misunderstanding
tl;dr: 4 stars. Offenses: "just a bunch of stuff that happened", jumpy level range
Reviewed on: 6/13/2009
Level Range: 20-29/25-37/25-39/1-54
Character used: Agent Cerulean/Justice
I know we have issues managing level ranges at the moment, mercifully fixed in issue 15, but really, that's just a mess.
Your Contact is a barrel. Actually, it's Sal "Your Pal" Santori, pawn shop owner, who is Not Being Seen at the moment. A few days ago he got a nice necklace, which he quickly sold for a good profit. Unfortunately the original owner wants it back. Sal needs some muscle to retrieve it. The purchaser was Guido "The Tongue" Donatacci, a Family dealer in stolen cell phones. The map is one of the larger warehouse maps, and Guido is a Consigliere type Boss. Unfortunately he doesn't have the necklace. He says he wasn't a hundred feet away from Sal's before some Circle of Thorns goons mugged him for it, so he's been beaten up twice in two days now and isn't very happy. Neither is Sal, who now informs you that the necklace belonged to one of the Tsoo.....
Sal checks his surveillance tapes and manages to pull a shot of the Circle guys who took the necklace. After asking around (from inside the barrel?) he gets a name, Karnak (Johnny Carson's gone bad? Eh, only us old guys are going to get that one....the nav bar says "Kaltrak" anyway, until you zone in and then the subtitle says Karnak...egads) and a location, a nearby cave system. You're off to see the wizard. As you crawl through the caves you discover the body of a Tsoo gangster killed in a crossfire between Freakshow and the Circle. Yep, sure enough, Karnak (as the mob is named) does not have the necklace any more. (Though he does have a cute death line.) The necklace, which has a powerful Tsoo spirit bound to it, was stolen by the Freakshow. Karnak gives up the name of the Freak Tank responsible, Thirty Six Hundred Baud, and you smack him one more time just because.
So, off to beat up some Freaks. This uses the Freakshow Warehouse map (usually seen in the Nemesis/Freakshow mission). The Tsoo are already here, usually getting whumped, and sure enough, Your Necklace Is In Another Castle. 3600 has sold the necklace to "some Skull guy named Mr. Bones or something". I don't like the direction this is going in, 'coz I think I know who he means...and just to complicate things, the Tsoo leader took off already and he knows about "Bones" too.
The Tsoo leader, Mr. Lo, has already been to see Sal by the time you get back, and lets Sal in on the big secret: the spirit in the necklace tries to control its owner. Guido didn't have it long enough, Karnak could fight it off and 3600 was too stupid to be affected. Mr. Bones is probably not so lucky. Lo told Sal to stay out of it, but Sal doesn't like loose ends and wants you to in anyway. The Fight Scene takes place on the flooded office map (inexplicably). Mr. Lo is available as an ally but I bypassed him until after facing down Mr. Bones, who turned out not to be Mr. Bocor as I expected but just a random Skull goon amped up by the necklace to a Dark Melee/Invulnerability Elite Boss. (This is just as well. If it was Mr. Bocor, the entry pop up would have had to say "You enter the office in search of your target. As you do so you can't help but notice you've been blasted into a smoldering pile of ashes.") He took me in the first fall, then I came back with a stack of reds and gunned him down. The rest of the map was filled with the custom "Possessed Skulls" faction, basically Skulls that Took A Level in Badass. I had to go back for Lo to finish the mission. He was, I think, a Katana/Super Reflexes Elite Boss and probably would have made entirely too short work of Bones, since Lo spawned at +1. He makes off with the necklace as soon as you complete the mission. In the debriefing Sal tells you Lo is willing to look the other way regarding the complications in getting the necklace back, then has a bit of an epiphany I won't spoil.
I will say that I was heading for three stars until the final debriefing, as the arc does not have a theme and wasn't that funny. The debriefing put it over the top for four stars. It would be nice if the level range wasn't so jumpy, something that might be addressed next issue. It's a light arc with some underplayed humor.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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This is just as well. If it was Mr. Bocor, the entry pop up would have had to say "You enter the office in search of your target. As you do so you can't help but notice you've been blasted into a smoldering pile of ashes."
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Mr. Bocor is simultaneously one of the most bad [censored] and the most under appreciated characters in the game. When I get around to writing arcs again I have to work him in somehow...
I've always liked Bocor because he's one of the few Contacts redside that not only treats the player with some degree of respect but does so when you're just a level 5 schmoe fresh in from Mercy.
I'd like to use him as a Contact myself, just waiting until I have an idea for an arc that would warrant it.
Edit: typo
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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three to five canon arcs they would give five stars to were they AE projects.
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Sorry, sleeps wait for no man.
What I don't like about WWR is my personal version of JABOSTH. It's not about the lack of theme, it's a lack of coherency. Crimson just sends you against Malta hideout after Malta hideout, until the clues you stumble upon just happen to have some coherence. It's simple politics until Wildflower gets mixed in, which I really feel belongs in another arc entirely. You've got plot A, then suddenly you've got plot B, and somewhere along the way you get some answers to plot A which you might have already forgotten. Anyway. Gripe over. Time to dig into Red Tomax for a reminder.
Five arcs I'd five-star:
1) Oh Wretched Man! - good enemy spread, good story, mixed-up missions.
2) Von Grun's * series - writing, writing, writing. Plus, again, varied enemies and objectives.
3) Last Man Standing - good concept, hops between groups, recurring bosses always (usually) a plus.
4) The Cult of the Shaper - Again, writing. Again, variation, plus the equivalent of a fun custom in Metal Shift.
5) High Roller's Last Gamble - Damn sympathetic ally, is what.
Oh look, I ran out of spots, and there's still Buzzsaw, and Sonata, and Automatic Villainy, and Mu'Drakhan, and Code Merlin.... anyways, let's check heroside. This'll be harder, I haven't done 'em in a while.
1) Sky Raider Secret (Poor Indomitable)
2) Freakalympics (for concept and execution thereof)
3) Scroll of Tielekku (just not on a Warshade, not again)
4) Ubelmann the Unknown (great clueing in)
5) Rise of the Vampyri
I'll admit I haven't done much of the 45-50 arcs but after WWR and Hero's Hero I'm not sure I should.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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For those of you that may have some criticism of Venture, voicing it either through posts or by rating this thread with fewer than five stars, I strongly suggest you run his arc, "Blowback," before you do. Regardless of whether you're a fan of the Malta Group, the Rikti, Crimson or the other players in his arc, what should strike you is the fact that it is obvious that he is familiar with everything that goes into creating a good story arc. From the use of the various maps and tools available through the creator, to the ability to craft a well-written, engaging story, to a sound grasp of grammar, spelling, and syntax, "Blowback" is a fine example of what people should strive for -- myself included.
There may be some reviewers out there that really have no right to critique others' work. Venture is not one of those.
Oh, and for the record, I don't know Venture from Adam. He has yet to review my arc, and I trust that, when he does, it will not be influenced by these comments. I simply thought it might help everyone trust his judgment a little more to hear from someone outside the box.
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I'm probably taking my life in my hands here, lol, but after reading this i realised that I hadn't played any of Venture's arcs yet, so i figured i'd start with Blowback.
Here follows a stream of consciousness 'review', typed as I played it, ending with my conclusions overall and the rating i ended giving it.
I should start by saying I have no huge beef with venture particularly. I don't read this thread very often not because I think he's too harsh or what have you; I just think he isn't very polite to people. I do check out his reviews of people I know ingame, however.
Also, I loathe Malta. Can't stand them, I think they're boring, story-wise, dull in looks (although the gunslingers are a wicked cool idea) and annoying as hell to fight. I am currently dropping a mission every three days in the World Wide Red arc. After about 5 missions i realised that I was actually hating playing CoH, and since I decided not to bother with it I've been much happier.
The plot of the arc involves Crimson asking you to investigate and act in what appears to be an internal power struggle between two Malta operatives. There's a 'rescuing' of a Malta agent involved and other stuff that happens along the way. I didn't feel very engaged at all for most of it I'm afraid.
My specific, as-I-go-along comments on Blowback, Arc ID 4643, by @Venture, then, tidied up a little for posting here, are:
Mission 1. briefing snip it in the bud, says Crimson. AFAIK its nip it in the bud'
Nav instruction says 4 equipment to confiscate equipment is an uncountable noun, so the nav should read 4 pieces of equipment to confiscate - Some of these might seem a bit nitpicky, but if Venture's going to be lauded for a 'sound grasp of grammar, spelling, and syntax', then...
The good: Good, linear map, patrols wandering around give a good atmosphere.
The equipment to confiscate turns out to be those huge science probe things. Not sure how Im going to take those away, tbh., they wont fit in my pockets, thats for sure... Three of them are unnamed with no clues. One has a clue written for it. My overall impression is that the other three are pointless.
Mission 2. Nav 5 endangered citizens
to what? Minor nitpick here, but I like verbs in my nav instructions. The Navs telling me to defeat Blue Avenger, so why not 5 endangered citizens to save? Minor, I said.
The citizens seemed tacked on, tbh. I had no real reason to care about any of them that was communicated to me by the contact.
Finding the last silent kneeling citizen on an outdoor map is horrible. We have big shiny glowy captured animations for a reason.
Debrief contains this sentence: "One was an environmental watchdog non-profit. That noun phrase has no base noun. An environmental watchdog non-profit what? Im guessing its organisation, maybe? Its possible that watchdog and non-profit have been accidentally transposed.
The debrief ends with this Just when I think Malta can't get any lower, they stand up real tall and walk under a snake. Having the ability to walk under a snake collocates better with tiny rather than low, IMO. Its a clumsy sentence.
Mission 3. Briefing. Another mangled idiom. wrap up some loose ends. I checked that tie up loose ends was the correct form of the idiom as I thought, and found a possible source for Ventures problem; one of the tvtropes.com contributors also makes the same mistake.
Venture also leaves out the preposition by in the phrase by any means necessary. I wonder if perhaps memory is an issue for his arc.
Crimsons dialogue sounds a jarring note here as he says It'd be nice if us spy agencies worked together
I think Crimson in-game comes across as more exact in his use of English ...if we spy agencies
would be right. Its ironic since Venture places so much store on canon characters being consistent in their voice when featuring in MA arcs.
Inside the mission, we have 5 citizens to rescue excellent (the verb, I mean, the countem hostage rescue itself isnt very interesting). Its a pity venture isnt internally consistent with his nav instruction formatting.
The hostage dialogue is identical for all. I think Ventures made one objective and set the number to 5. It doesnt make for believable characters when they all spout the exact same dialogue.
The good: really nice map. I hadnt seen it before.
Mission 4. The Mission subheading is Fall Out. This phrasal verb means to have an argument with someone, or to to leave ones place in the ranks if one is a soldier. Im not sure what Venture means using it here, especially as the noun version would be A Falling Out. Possibly he meant to use the hyphenated noun Fall-out (Also sometimes seen without the hyphen). That might make more sense. The mission is about an argument.
Inside, the nav is clear but not consistent with either if the previous ones. 2 pieces of evidence left is what we have. And 10 bodies to search
ok, maybe they wont just be timesinks. There are patrols, with identical dialogue.
My first body gleans this system message: This is the body of a Malta operative, gunned down by other Malta operatives. So does the second. And the third
Why anyone bothered to put them in bodybags in the midst of a shootout isnt explained. The fourth does drop a clue, however, and some of the others do also. Not all of them. Some must be there for flavour, but they just seem a timesink to me.
The Good: One of the Big Bads looks awesome standing on a platform in one of the final rooms, and the fights with the titans are very enjoyable. Maybe the canon Malta stuff just has too many damn sappers and gunslingers. This arcs combat isn't bad at all.
I finally find a handbags-out email exchange between two malta operatives being catty with one another. I dont have time to read the final one till after I exit the mission apparently, despite having time to access a computer, open 10 body bags and grab a note from a desk whilst the shooting is going on. By the way, Im stealthed the whole time. I have actually found ample time to have a poo during this mission, afking in a room with 6 malta operatives in it. Reading one email wouldnt be beyond me, Im sure. The you discover the whole truth AFTER you finish! ploy is a side effect of the mission complete clue field being larger than the in-mission ones. One of my arcs uses the mission complete clue to deliver a pretty hefty chunk of exposition, but at least in my defense whats discovered is actually said at the same time the missions does complete. Ventures just been unable or unwilling to find a way to get the info across in a less lazy way. Its not as bad as writing a So THIS is what really happened! Souvenir, but to me it smacks of the easy way out, and Im not the only player whos going to be stealthing.
Debrief. Crimson now seems worried that one of the Malta operatives is going to off the other one. Im thinking which would be bad
why?
Anyway, after either a steal from or a nod to Carpenters They Live (either seems out of character for Crimson I feel, but it is a great line, even the softened version Venture uses because the A-word falls foul of the profanity filter), Crimson sends me out to take on all comers. The reasons are hand-waved.
Mission 5. The entry popup is great (altought the reason for there being an arachnos flier next to your entrance is a little grasping). I have to beat some guys up and also destroy some doohickeys for no easily explained reason.
I hadnt seen this map before, and its awesome. Really cool. I beat up one guy, Im enjoying the mission no end
and then I meet a &*@&^ing mastermind
So after an annoying fight I die, tool up with a trayfull of inspirs and come back and he goes down.
And then I find another doohockey and destroy it and the mission ends. I feel strangely cheated somehow. Where was my climax?
The debriefing from crimson is more blah blah. Nothing wrong with it, it just suffers from the same problem most of the arc has: its dull. Someone made a point earlier about it being much the same quality as a lot of canon work. I wouldn't disagree with that, apart from the typos etc, but the problem there is that the MA is capable of making much better stuff than the canon work. Multiple hostages or glowies or patrols with identical dialogue is par for the course with canon arcs. With the MA we can give every patrol individual dialogue if we want (I'm not saying each patrol should be approached by the MAuthor with 'whats his motivation?', but that we can do more.Wwe should be striving for better than canon.
Bizarrely and happily, this was actyually more fun for me that any canon Malta arc i've played. I stealthed through it as much as I could, and it being only 5 missions long meant it didn't annoy me. The Bosses were mostly spot on in terms of challenge for my particular tastes - ie pretty easy lol. The Mastermind was a bit of a shame, but the other EB was a great fight. I have no quibbles at all with the map choice.
Even with my antipathy towards malta, this would have been a 4-starrer but for the lack of polish in some of the language, the mastermind, and the pointless timesink objectives like the extra bodybags and the unbelievable giant 'equipments to confiscate'. I give 4 stars to arcs that show no faults even if i think they're dull; other players patently love Malta, so for them this might be a diamond.
tl;dr - 3 stars. offences: Timewasting, That One Boss, Inconsistencies.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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First off, thanks for the review, specially for the typo notices. I had a few friends check them and they still slip by.
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The Lost, particularly Mike, are way out of character here. From their first exposure to Shift they are described as being somber and business-like; running around losing money at casinos doesn't really fit.
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There are things I wanted to note about Mike specifically and why he is so out of place, I tried to hint at it in his bio but only had so much room to work with without going into babbling. I guess all I can say there is he is intended to be out of place. The guy has never been "shifted", he just seems to, sort of. As for some one else in the arc, he is meant to be shifted, not shifted yet.
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There's another small issue at the end when Bernhard says Katie's mutation is irreversible: we've got a cure for the Lost now and works up to Pariah stage.
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That is a thing that bugged me a bit when I did this. Thing is I have not seen reference to that cure anywhere out of the arc for the Midnighters. I have come to think it's being kept a bit secret for now, or it's reproduction is not an easy task and has become simply an academic breakthrough that will take years to become public. Otherwise there would no longer by any Lost on the streets and cops would be carrying those awkward wands everywhere in Skyway.
Either way, a lot of NPCs seem to have no clue about it so I figured it would be fine to just set my contact and associates in that group of people.
I also have the option setting a disclaimer saying the arc takes place before the Midnighters's comeback.
I'll consider revisiting these two aspects once I15 comes out as it may buy me some more room to enter extra clues.
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From a gameplay perspective though, the only redeeming thing about that arc is the giant robot ambush. Fifteen missions of one enemy group over and over might be required for the story, but it detracts from fun factor.
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I don't think that's necessarily true. But off course, if you are going to use the same group you may want to make sure you do some interesting encounters and situations. In fact, I like more arcs that stick to the same faction but work interestingly than arcs that are tossing different groups at me as if they were multi-colored skitters.
Multi group use is the cheap way at variety.
Interesting encounters with consistent foes is the cool way at variety.
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Mission 1. briefing snip it in the bud, says Crimson. AFAIK its nip it in the bud'
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Just a quickie comment. I know why he had to use 'snip'. I tried using 'nip it in the bud' in one of my arcs and got the lovely pop-up message that I couldn't use that 'naughty word', 'nip'. I posted about that in the thread about 'naughty words' that are banned in MA, that was posted in one of the forums a while back. It sucks that we have to change the wording of common 'old sayings' because one of the words might have another meaning than the one that we intend.
No AV/EBs Deal with The Devil's Pawn-207266 Slash DeMento and the Stolen Weapons-100045 Meet the Demon Spawn-151099 Feedback
Well I was reading this post and had to comment on a couple of points MrCaptainMan makes:
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he equipment to confiscate turns out to be those huge science probe things. Not sure how Im going to take those away, tbh., they wont fit in my pockets, thats for sure...
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Well what small piece of tech equipment available in the MA do you suggest? They all seem rather large don't they? There is NOTHING small from what I remember so how could he pick something that doesn't exist?
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Finding the last silent kneeling citizen on an outdoor map is horrible. We have big shiny glowy captured animations for a reason.
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What reason would the captive have to be glowing?
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Mission 3. Briefing. Another mangled idiom. wrap up some loose ends. I checked that tie up loose ends was the correct form of the idiom as I thought, and found a possible source for Ventures problem; one of the tvtropes.com contributors also makes the same mistake.
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Wrap & Tie have the same meaning, there is NOTHING wrong with him saying that. If he wants to use one word in place of another that's his perogative. And what he wrote makes perfect sense.
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The hostage dialogue is identical for all. I think Ventures made one objective and set the number to 5. It doesnt make for believable characters when they all spout the exact same dialogue.
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I would agree that everyone having their own unique dialogue would be wonderful. Guess what? To do that he would need create 5 separate instances of "Release Captive" to achieve that. Did it ever occur to you that each instance uses about 0.5% of the available mission space, without any text added. Using 1 instance with multiple spawns uses NO MORE SPACE! Maybe he was running out of space?
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My first body gleans this system message: This is the body of a Malta operative, gunned down by other Malta operatives. So does the second. And the third
Why anyone bothered to put them in bodybags in the midst of a shootout isnt explained. The fourth does drop a clue, however, and some of the others do also. Not all of them. Some must be there for flavour, but they just seem a timesink to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again... what other graphic could he have used to convey a dead body? Please let me know. A real body? Not an option that I see in the MA. Bones? Well how did the flesh get stripped off the bones? Coffin? Well if you have an issue with a compact storage device like a body bag, I'd hate to see your issue with a large coffin!
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I finally find a handbags-out email exchange between two malta operatives being catty with one another. I dont have time to read the final one till after I exit the mission apparently, despite having time to access a computer, open 10 body bags and grab a note from a desk whilst the shooting is going on. By the way, Im stealthed the whole time. I have actually found ample time to have a poo during this mission, afking in a room with 6 malta operatives in it. Reading one email wouldnt be beyond me, Im sure. The you discover the whole truth AFTER you finish! ploy is a side effect of the mission complete clue field being larger than the in-mission ones. One of my arcs uses the mission complete clue to deliver a pretty hefty chunk of exposition, but at least in my defense whats discovered is actually said at the same time the missions does complete. Ventures just been unable or unwilling to find a way to get the info across in a less lazy way. Its not as bad as writing a So THIS is what really happened! Souvenir, but to me it smacks of the easy way out, and Im not the only player whos going to be stealthing.
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So you have an issue with him not being able to fit something in a text field that's too small for him to fit it in? Seriously? What did you want him to do? Hack the game and recode the text field sizes?
Respectfully,
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Mission 1. briefing snip it in the bud, says Crimson. AFAIK its nip it in the bud'
[/ QUOTE ]
Just a quickie comment. I know why he had to use 'snip'. I tried using 'nip it in the bud' in one of my arcs and got the lovely pop-up message that I couldn't use that 'naughty word', 'nip'. I posted about that in the thread about 'naughty words' that are banned in MA, that was posted in one of the forums a while back. It sucks that we have to change the wording of common 'old sayings' because one of the words might have another meaning than the one that we intend.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lol. 'nip' is a profanity? Dear dear. Well that explains it. I'd have avoided the idiom, personally, or picked another one, but this is a good example of how the profanity filter needs to be considerably less conservative.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
Idioms are great and all, but not everyone uses each phrase identically. Even without the limitations of the MA, individual Contacts might just have a quirky way of paraphrasing.
And since I'm not an actual horticulturalist, I'm not sure what the best way of de-budding is. Maybe it's nipping or pinching, or maybe it's snipping with scissors.
In any case, I don't find anything wrong with whatever amount of wrapping or snipping Venture may or may not be using. I usually focus on plots over semantics.
Rise of the Copper Legion (#60280; with soundtrack)
The Fractured Dreamer (#498588; with musical theme)
"Now Leaving: Paragon City": original composition for the end of CoH
[ QUOTE ]
Well I was reading this post and had to comment on a couple of points MrCaptainMan makes:
[ QUOTE ]
he equipment to confiscate turns out to be those huge science probe things. Not sure how Im going to take those away, tbh., they wont fit in my pockets, thats for sure...
[/ QUOTE ]
Well what small piece of tech equipment available in the MA do you suggest? They all seem rather large don't they? There is NOTHING small from what I remember so how could he pick something that doesn't exist?
[/ QUOTE ]
He doesn't have to find another gloiwe to use. The glowies are simply Mcguffins to get a plot point across. He could have simply said 'examine and disable'. As it stands, the player is being asked to remove 4 pieces of machinery that each stand over a mans height. Which is silly.
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Finding the last silent kneeling citizen on an outdoor map is horrible. We have big shiny glowy captured animations for a reason.
[/ QUOTE ]
What reason would the captive have to be glowing?
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Rikti isolation fields? The writer can use the writing to lessen any tedious nonfun stuff for the player. This plotpoint was to find hostages. it wasn't necessary that I fly around an outdoor map for ages because the elements Im looking for are difficult to find.
In one of my arcs, I had a pile of bones as a glowie to find on the Eden map. it was horrible, and testers rightfully complained. I changed the pile of bones to something really large, and altered the writing slightly to compensate. The writer has the final word on what goes into his arc. The players are free after the fact to give their opinion.
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Mission 3. Briefing. Another mangled idiom. wrap up some loose ends. I checked that tie up loose ends was the correct form of the idiom as I thought, and found a possible source for Ventures problem; one of the tvtropes.com contributors also makes the same mistake.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wrap & Tie have the same meaning, there is NOTHING wrong with him saying that. If he wants to use one word in place of another that's his perogative. And what he wrote makes perfect sense.
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Wrap and Tie don't have the same meaning (try to wrap your shoelaces), but what you mean is that they act in the same way in this fixed phrase. Getting an idiom or a fixed phrase wrong is akin to making a spelling error IMO. You are free to disagree.
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The hostage dialogue is identical for all. I think Ventures made one objective and set the number to 5. It doesnt make for believable characters when they all spout the exact same dialogue.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would agree that everyone having their own unique dialogue would be wonderful. Guess what? To do that he would need create 5 separate instances of "Release Captive" to achieve that. Did it ever occur to you that each instance uses about 0.5% of the available mission space, without any text added. Using 1 instance with multiple spawns uses NO MORE SPACE! Maybe he was running out of space?
Maybe he was, although from my experience of arc-writing, I'd be surprised. There were no customs that I could see, and his text amounts didn't seem vary large. I may be wrong, however, and i did point to memory issues as being a possible factor too, if you look again at what I wrote.
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My first body gleans this system message: This is the body of a Malta operative, gunned down by other Malta operatives. So does the second. And the third
Why anyone bothered to put them in bodybags in the midst of a shootout isnt explained. The fourth does drop a clue, however, and some of the others do also. Not all of them. Some must be there for flavour, but they just seem a timesink to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again... what other graphic could he have used to convey a dead body? Please let me know. A real body? Not an option that I see in the MA. Bones? Well how did the flesh get stripped off the bones? Coffin? Well if you have an issue with a compact storage device like a body bag, I'd hate to see your issue with a large coffin!
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, the writing can be used to workaround the limits of the MA. You seem to think I'm criticising purely the glowie choice, when the fact is he's done what we all do - chosen a glowie AND written some plot to refer to it. The glowies are limitied. The writing is only limited by the writers imagination and skill (and somehwat by the profanity filter lol). I'm supposed to accept that in this frantic shootout I'm too busy to read one email even though I'm stealthed, yet the very people who are doing the frantic shooting can find the time to put the dead into bodybags (including the dead of their enemies!). The glowie isn't to blame for my incredulity; the writing is. [ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I finally find a handbags-out email exchange between two malta operatives being catty with one another. I dont have time to read the final one till after I exit the mission apparently, despite having time to access a computer, open 10 body bags and grab a note from a desk whilst the shooting is going on. By the way, Im stealthed the whole time. I have actually found ample time to have a poo during this mission, afking in a room with 6 malta operatives in it. Reading one email wouldnt be beyond me, Im sure. The you discover the whole truth AFTER you finish! ploy is a side effect of the mission complete clue field being larger than the in-mission ones. One of my arcs uses the mission complete clue to deliver a pretty hefty chunk of exposition, but at least in my defense whats discovered is actually said at the same time the missions does complete. Ventures just been unable or unwilling to find a way to get the info across in a less lazy way. Its not as bad as writing a So THIS is what really happened! Souvenir, but to me it smacks of the easy way out, and Im not the only player whos going to be stealthing.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you have an issue with him not being able to fit something in a text field that's too small for him to fit it in? Seriously? What did you want him to do? Hack the game and recode the text field sizes?
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I want him to take more care when writing the arc. This will save me from 'no time to read? wtf?' moments, and him from lower ratings than he might get otherwise.
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Respectfully,
[/ QUOTE ]
All that said, There WAS some positive in my critique of Blowback (I forgot to mention that I'm not sure why it's called Blowback either, but it's a nice snappy title), and see my sig. It's not my arc, it's his. Everything I have said is opinion. It's his arc, after all.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
[ QUOTE ]
Again, the writing can be used to workaround the limits of the MA. You seem to think I'm criticising purely the glowie choice, when the fact is he's done what we all do - chosen a glowie AND written some plot to refer to it. The glowies are limitied. The writing is only limited by the writers imagination and skill (and somehwat by the profanity filter lol). I'm supposed to accept that in this frantic shootout I'm too busy to read one email even though I'm stealthed, yet the very people who are doing the frantic shooting can find the time to put the dead into bodybags 9including the dead of their enemies!). The glowie isn't to blame for my incredulity; the writing is.
[/ QUOTE ]
I respectfully disagree, especially in instances with dead bodies. There's only so much that a writer can do to convince someone that they're actually looking at a corpse -- when the object absolutely cannot be an actual visible corpse.
I've run into this myself. I have one mission that takes place during an invasion of the city. Players need to rescue several innocent citizens, but at least two civilians weren't so lucky. Now, I'm fully aware that two-thousand-year-old magical automatons wouldn't stop to lay out a body bag properly, but I felt I needed that particular plot element to help the mood. I hope that -- as I myself do with other arcs -- players will suspend a little disbelief and ease up on the Fridge Logic.
It's been a while since I've played Venture's arc, so I can't remember the specific plot points of the mission in question. But it seems to me that a few casualties would be necessary in an indoor firefight, if only to add a little instance of flavor.
As far as the email bit, it strikes me as an attempt to create some kind of immediacy in the scene. Why should I stop what I'm doing and read through some random emails, especially in the middle of a deadly shootout in the midst of a covert militant group?
Rise of the Copper Legion (#60280; with soundtrack)
The Fractured Dreamer (#498588; with musical theme)
"Now Leaving: Paragon City": original composition for the end of CoH
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Again, the writing can be used to workaround the limits of the MA. You seem to think I'm criticising purely the glowie choice, when the fact is he's done what we all do - chosen a glowie AND written some plot to refer to it. The glowies are limitied. The writing is only limited by the writers imagination and skill (and somehwat by the profanity filter lol). I'm supposed to accept that in this frantic shootout I'm too busy to read one email even though I'm stealthed, yet the very people who are doing the frantic shooting can find the time to put the dead into bodybags 9including the dead of their enemies!). The glowie isn't to blame for my incredulity; the writing is.
[/ QUOTE ]
I respectfully disagree, especially in instances with dead bodies. There's only so much that a writer can do to convince someone that they're actually looking at a corpse -- when the object absolutely cannot be an actual visible corpse.
I've run into this myself. I have one mission that takes place during an invasion of the city. Players need to rescue several innocent citizens, but at least two civilians weren't so lucky. Now, I'm fully aware that two-thousand-year-old magical automatons wouldn't stop to lay out a body bag properly, but I felt I needed that particular plot element to help the mood. I hope that -- as I myself do with other arcs -- players will suspend a little disbelief and ease up on the Fridge Logic.
It's been a while since I've played Venture's arc, so I can't remember the specific plot points of the mission in question. But it seems to me that a few casualties would be necessary in an indoor firefight, if only to add a little instance of flavor.
As far as the email bit, it strikes me as an attempt to create some kind of immediacy in the scene. Why should I stop what I'm doing and read through some random emails, especially in the middle of a deadly shootout in the midst of a covert militant group?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because of consistency. The other clues that drop don't make out u don't gave time for them. Plus as i mentioned, I'm stealthing.
Here's how I treat clues. If a clue drops, I read it as soon as I'm able to, and I assume that the writer means for my character to know the info there and then. If I get an info dump in the mission complete clue that tells me I actually got sth earlier but I didn't gave time, I look back at what I was doing whenbi was supposed to gave got it. Brutes may well be rushingvthrough smashing everything with no time to stop, but not everyone plays a brute. In my case I was casually strolling around all but invisible to the mobs.
Immediacy? The intro describes a frantic shootiut but there wasn't one going on while I was there. Either let me read the clue in the mission (which would mean editing it into two or more drops) or make the mission more frantic.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
Just an aside on the wrap up/tie up- I've always known the saying to be 'wrap up some loose ends'. Might just be a regional thing.
And as to the shoot out... the Battle triggers are borked to the point of uselessness. The spawns 'native' to the map always spawn more and higher-level mobs than their opponents, meaning most battles are painfully short-lived. So even if there was a firefight programmed in, you probably never saw it.
"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head." Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
MA Arcs: #12285, "Small Fears", #106553, "Trollbane", #12669, "How to Survive a Robot Uprising"
[ QUOTE ]
It makes me wonder why they play the game, though. After all, since the argument seems to be that Venture's work is *too* similar to stuff we see created by Devs, it stands to reason that they don't like the Dev's work. That being the case, why play the game?
[/ QUOTE ]Without addressing the rest of your post (because I have no beef with Venture, his arcs or reviews), the easiest answer for me is this: Can't it be both?
If I want content that feels like professionally created, canon-pure developer content, I have an entire game's worth of it right outside the AE walls. If I'm in the mood for comedy, horror stories, historical reimaginings, "What if?" games with the canon, etc then I can find them in the AE.