Venture's Reviews II: The Nightmare Continues
By
Aisynia,
Posted on: 2009-05-16 24:40 in Mission Architect
I have taken the 2 reviews (Venture/Dragonslayer) I have had of this arc and adjusted mission 3 to hopefully cater to the concerns they had on this mission.
Made them twins... now there's only 8 rescues not 16.
Unnecessary clues: removed the clues (17) that didn't contribute to the story. Now if a clue pops up... read it!
Hopefully that lessens the tedium factor.
Added a recommendation in the Mission Summary part of MA that it's recommended for Lvl 3 Maximum difficulty .
I don't think any of the dialogue is an issue so I'm not changing that.
I think there is a theme/moral (a few actually) so I'm not changing anything in that regard.
I can't find any typos yet, but I'll play it again and maybe I'll catch something.
Respectfully,
First of all - you definitely have a right to respond to criticism; I'm not trying to say you don't. I was just trying to say I don't think you made your points as clear as you might have thought.
On this:
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When I spent so much of my limited time working on this arc (I am gone 16 hours a day with work/travel). It is disturbing to see all the work that has gone into the story being ignored and every one of the various themes being missed.
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I think that happens to every writer in every medium. It's certainly happened to me. But ask yourself this: did Venture miss the work you put in because of something about Venture, or because of something about the way the story is written?
I get the feeling that you have a very large back-story behind this arc that is not tied to canon. In those kinds of situations, the first thing you have to do is make sure that the player is going to care about that back-story enough to invite examination. Given Venture's description of the contact and first mission, I think that didn't happen, and everything beyond that is necessarily going to suffer.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
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I think that happens to every writer in every medium. It's certainly happened to me. But ask yourself this: did Venture miss the work you put in because of something about Venture, or because of something about the way the story is written?
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Well he missed the clue telling him he found the files in mission 5 (the clue is in the Archmage Of Death Clue), after telling me most of my clues were meaningless(which 17 of them were... I just summarized what happened in a line or two so that If a player took a break they could come back and look at the clues and remember what happened). He stated that you didn't have to find the files. So he didn't read the clue. And if you can't read a clue that is one or two lines long and would take 5 seconds at most to read, then I think the readers patience level is rather low. 17 clues * 5 seconds = 85 seconds. Wow... a lot of wasted time.
Not reading the clue would be Venture's fault. Doubly so since in the Mission Summary right at the beginning I ask that they PLEASE READ THE CLUES (and DIALOGUE was supposed to be in there , but that got cut off since I was at 100.00%)
Obviously, theme/moral is a more elusive concept to find. But I think it's in my arc. I certainly see it.
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I get the feeling that you have a very large back-story behind this arc that is not tied to canon. In those kinds of situations, the first thing you have to do is make sure that the player is going to care about that back-story enough to invite examination. Given Venture's description of the contact and first mission, I think that didn't happen, and everything beyond that is necessarily going to suffer.
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Well I don't know Venture personally, so I don't know for sure what his "tastes" are.
I have seen him comment about the new gender changing option coming soon and he doesn't seem to like that idea.
Maybe he has issues with what he would consider "deviant" behaviour? If so he would not like the Mistress... a dominatrix. All I tried to do was make interesting characters.
My humour might also not be to his taste. But I think the dialogue is appropriate for the wandering patrols. If he doesn't like it, then that's his right to not like it.
He might also not like the way the groups treat the hostesses. But again they are villains who are not particularly likable. So I think their behaviour in this arc is appropriate.
And it can be quite funny when one of the Nemesis Jaeger robots says "I'm lonely" and someone else in the patrol tells the robot to "ask one of the BunnyGirls out on a date!" Come on who wouldn't laugh at that! ( the patrols randomly spawn with human soldiers and robots so who says what is very random). Also lends a personal touch to the Nemesis... aren't their soldiers human and might actually be lonely? Might not the pretty hostess like to go out on a date with a man in uniform?
Another freak patrol asks "what lube do you use?" the other freak replies "Wd-40, keeps me limber"... harmless conversation to me, since they are metal monstrousities that need to oil their joints. It also ties into the conversation going on with one of the Hostesses and the freaks surrounding her. One of them asks for a "Lube job".
The Carnies wonder about why they are there at this meeting... "to meet some mysterious person".
The Council patrol comments on how the "Carnie women are hot" while the other patrol member says, "but those masks give me the creeps".
None of this dialogue I can see being very offensive.
Anyways, play the arc if you want and see for yourself.
It's only been voted on 4 times:
1st time: Unknown... 10 minutes after I published it... 1 star... interesting they could already know they hated it! LOL
2nd time: Dragonslayer's review... 3 stars (arc was then sitting at 2 stars)
3rd time: Venture... 2 stars (I assume arc would still be at 2 stars... another vote came in)
4th time: Unknown... But my arc is at 3 stars now , so I assume they gave me 5 stars
Respectfully,
Something I would suggest; limit your clues to those which have relevance and reduce the number to an amount your audience is going to be willing to open up the clue tab and look at them if you expect them to do so. I love story but 17 clues is a bit much to chew on. Shortly after I first wrote it I condensed my arc clues down from one per boss and glowy to one per mission as a mission complete clue. I realized that I wouldn't lose anything by doing so and players would be more willing to look at 5 clues than 10 or so. That route isn't good for every story, but if a clue doesn't have something important (a clue, not just a "you did this") then it's not adding value to your arc.
Also, don't expect players to stealth in order to make your mission fun to play. Stealth (and its various other cousins) are not part of many builds and those characters are going to have to fight. Some players like to fight. If it becomes a grind because of your design don't expect them to like it.
Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
BOYCOTT NCSoft (on Facebook)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/517513781597443/
Governments have fallen to the power of social media. Gaming companies can too.
I understand and do agree with you.
I thought I was doing the player a favour by putting little reminders of what happened in. Because of my own personal play experience (infrequent playing and being continually interupted while playing) I thought reminders would be helpful.
As I know now, not everyone wants them, so I did remove the 17 clues I consider to be just "reminders".
Respectfully,
You added another paragraph just after I responded to you...
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Also, don't expect players to stealth in order to make your mission fun to play. Stealth (and its various other cousins) are not part of many builds and those characters are going to have to fight. Some players like to fight. If it becomes a grind because of your design don't expect them to like it.
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I didn't make the mission for stealth, I just pointed out stealth could make it easier (the character he used was a SOA, but I don't know if he took stealth). And most enemies could be avoided if he hugged the walls. All mobs were stationary groups in this mission. Personally I fight my way through. 1LT and 2 minions mobs (what I encountered) should not be that difficult.
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You added another paragraph just after I responded to you...
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Also, don't expect players to stealth in order to make your mission fun to play. Stealth (and its various other cousins) are not part of many builds and those characters are going to have to fight. Some players like to fight. If it becomes a grind because of your design don't expect them to like it.
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I didn't make the mission for stealth, I just pointed out stealth could make it easier (the character he used was a SOA, but I don't know if he took stealth). And most enemies could be avoided if he hugged the walls. All mobs were stationary groups in this mission. Personally I fight my way through. 1LT and 2 minions mobs (what I encountered) should not be that difficult.
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I fight through most of the time as well unless the mobs prove annoying. I have a pet peeve with teams that want to stealth everything. For me it's like skipping the steak to get to dessert. I want both.
Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
BOYCOTT NCSoft (on Facebook)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/517513781597443/
Governments have fallen to the power of social media. Gaming companies can too.
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You added another paragraph just after I responded to you...
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Also, don't expect players to stealth in order to make your mission fun to play. Stealth (and its various other cousins) are not part of many builds and those characters are going to have to fight. Some players like to fight. If it becomes a grind because of your design don't expect them to like it.
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I didn't make the mission for stealth, I just pointed out stealth could make it easier (the character he used was a SOA, but I don't know if he took stealth). And most enemies could be avoided if he hugged the walls. All mobs were stationary groups in this mission. Personally I fight my way through. 1LT and 2 minions mobs (what I encountered) should not be that difficult.
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I fight through most of the time as well unless the mobs prove annoying. I have a pet peeve with teams that want to stealth everything. For me it's like skipping the steak to get to dessert. I want both.
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I'd rather clear maps, too. Fighting is too much fun in this game (mostly) to skip all the time.
Also, sigged. 
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Well he missed the clue telling him he found the files in mission 5 (the clue is in the Archmage Of Death Clue), after telling me most of my clues were meaningless(which 17 of them were... I just summarized what happened in a line or two so that If a player took a break they could come back and look at the clues and remember what happened).
Not reading the clue would be Venture's fault.
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See, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's Mission 5, far enough into the arc for the player to understand your style. If you haven't by that point convinced the player it's worth their time to read all the clues, then they're going to skim them, or maybe skip them entirely. Going by the description, you haven't convinced Venture it's worth reading the clues - in fact, it seems to be the opposite - you've convinced Venture it's not worth reading the clues. So he skipped it.
I'm really not trying to beat you up here. Venture does say at the end of his review, "There's a good story here trying to get out" - I'm trying to help you get it out, by trying to change your perspective a little bit. The writer's effort doesn't matter to the player, only the player's experience matters. That's what they rate the arc on.
By the way, one of the hardest things for me when the MA came out was to admit to myself that not everyone's going to like my stories. I like convoluted, thought-provoking plots, and a lot of people just like to fight through. As a result I decided to try to advertise effectively so the kinds of people that like the kinds of stories I write would identify them correctly and that those who don't would be able to skip over it without getting involved. But I also made an effort to make the convoluted plots optional; if you just liked to grind through, you'd get an interesting arc mechanics-wise, and things would mostly hang together without being too confusing. (I probably did not succeed at that as well as I'd like.)
Writing to a specific audience versus expanding your audience is a tricky balancing act, but it has to start with the player's perspective first and foremost.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
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I see a moral/theme in this story, everything is tied together (I think quite well).
Possible themes/morals:
Trust is earned not given... Did the character earn the trust of the contact through the characters actions in the story and was in turn entrusted with the "Order's" secret - YES
That no matter what happens in life, one must retain his humanity... The vampires daily unending internal struggle to deal with what they are - YES
Even Villains have standards... Displayed by the contact's wish to not kill innocents - YES
Love arises in the strangest places... Well the contact seems to come like the character in a rather romantic way by the end of the arc (and yes she is bisexual.. in case you are playing a female character). - YES
That is why I don't agree with Venture on "just a bunch of stuff that happened".
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I've not played your arc, but in your story did you create any sort of conflict - that is played out, not just implied - about any of these proposed themes? A situation in which the subject of one of these themes is focused upon and challenged?
You have a lot of themes here, and I'm thinking that the problem is that most of them are implicit rather than being explicit. You might strengthen the story by picking one or two of these themes and dramatizing them. (Again, I've not played your arc, maybe you did that.)
"Trust is earned, not given" - Is there a scene where this trust is challenged; that is, where something casts the trust in doubt? To create a conflict, and dramatize this theme, there should probably be something that puts the trust in doubt, and then some event where the trust is justified. In that way we show that the trust is "earned." Running with a premise of "Okay, you do this for me and I'll trust you" isn't sufficiently dramatic. There needs to be an arc (up/down movement). So if you begin with a state of trust ("I'm giving you this mission because I trust you to an extent"), then the next phase must be one of failure and distrust ("I don't know if I can trust you, because of X.") This is then resolved with earned trust ("Okay, I see why things happened that way, and it turns out I really CAN trust you.")
It is much easier, by the way, to have your themes operating on NPCs and not on the PC. So you might create a 3rd party whose trust is in doubt (and who must earn it).
"One must struggle to retain humanity" - Again, this must be dramatized. What is the challenge to one's humanity? How is this played out in the choices given? Where is the point where the outcome of the struggle to retain humanity comes into doubt? How is this struggle resolved?
"Even villains have standards" - You can probably see where I'm going with this. Is this standard demonstrated, and demonstrated in a way that provides dramatic punch? Or is it just a rule that is stated and followed?
"Love arises in the strangest of places" - I think to make this theme emerge, you'd first have to take some pains to create the impression that this "strangest of places" is hard and loveless. You can't just assume that the player sees it that way at the outset. It has to be acted out in some way - or several ways - to create a strong impression. It's only when you have the audience thinking one way about a thing that can you create an impact by giving a twist.
Also, it would be more dramatic if the love was revealed at the end as a motive for NPC actions that have already been witnessed.
I've run this arc ("A South Side Story") several times, but the last time I noticed something odd. There was a huge and silent ambush that came after we attacked the Hellion leader (Fire Fist).
The thing is ... there is no ambush called for. I've checked multiple times. There are two ambushes in the spec. The first occurs after the defeat of the front battle, and the second occurs after the defeat of T. Jones.
You were right, Venture. There is an ambush. But it's a MA bug.
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The Hellion leader turned out to be a custom mob, "Fire Fist", whose info said he preferred to use his martial arts training. He never got into melee range so mostly used Fire Blasts on me, did throw a shuriken once. When he got low an ambush wave spawned silently and hit me in the back, which made things "interesting" for a bit but I pulled it off.
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There actually is no ambush or any other trigger on Fire Fist. It must have been a patrol that came up behind you, hence the silence.
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Third, if I have counted correctly, I believe the last review posted is my 100th.
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Gratz on your 100th review Venture. I love the critical, and sometimes downright harsh reviews in your thread, and look forward to each new one. It's a real treat when I find this thread with new posts. Your reviews have really helped me refine my own arc(I think) before it's even been reviewed, and I look forward to any harsh treatment you give it.
Keep em coming!
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See, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's Mission 5, far enough into the arc for the player to understand your style. If you haven't by that point convinced the player it's worth their time to read all the clues, then they're going to skim them, or maybe skip them entirely. Going by the description, you haven't convinced Venture it's worth reading the clues - in fact, it seems to be the opposite - you've convinced Venture it's not worth reading the clues. So he skipped it.
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There are I believe 11 other clues that do contain valid information, 4 of which happen in in Mission 4. So while I agree that 17 clues (I have removed already) were not important to the story (I have already explained why they were there). They way it was going to work in Mission 5 originally, was that each Arch-Magi was going to have one of the files (divide and conquer method of dechipering the encoded files). Simply put I had NO space left to type even 1 character. So I put the comment in the Arch-Magi of Death Clue that all the files were recovered from him (I have expanded that clue now and made it bigger). I can see him missing it if he made the assumption that my clues were useless. But he should not be making that assumption should he? Other clues were NOT useless. No clue I made would have taken more than 5 seconds to read.
In any event the clues (reminder type) have already been eliminated. So that mistake (although made with good intentions) has been corrected already.
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I'm really not trying to beat you up here. Venture does say at the end of his review, "There's a good story here trying to get out" - I'm trying to help you get it out, by trying to change your perspective a little bit. The writer's effort doesn't matter to the player, only the player's experience matters. That's what they rate the arc on.
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Please feel free to beat me up... as long as it's constructive.
I have no SG friends or people to play my arc... I want feedback.
I'm glad he thinks there is a good story in there. And I do appreciate feedback. As you have seen I have already corrected most of the things Venture/Dragonslayer had issues with.
I asked Venture to look at my arc because he has a reputation for being harsh and I knew may things he might not like from my reading his reviews of other people. I expected my worst rating to come from him.
But I think he was a bit sloppy in his review (not reading clues during a review is sloppy) and got some facts wrong and missed possible themes/moral and he put the "just a bunch of stuff that happens" label on it. I took a lot of effort in making a story that was NOT that, so when he said that, I was understandably shocked.
To get a 2 star rating which to me means it is worse than a normal COV radio mission I find very insulting.
But I can understand some of the points Venture/Dragonslayer made and I immediately corrected them.
But in I15 I might get some space back from what I have heard and be able to make it patently obvious through expanded dialogue/briefings/etc what the themes are.
To me they are obvious, but then again I wrote it! LOL
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By the way, one of the hardest things for me when the MA came out was to admit to myself that not everyone's going to like my stories. I like convoluted, thought-provoking plots, and a lot of people just like to fight through. As a result I decided to try to advertise effectively so the kinds of people that like the kinds of stories I write would identify them correctly and that those who don't would be able to skip over it without getting involved. But I also made an effort to make the convoluted plots optional; if you just liked to grind through, you'd get an interesting arc mechanics-wise, and things would mostly hang together without being too confusing. (I probably did not succeed at that as well as I'd like.)
Writing to a specific audience versus expanding your audience is a tricky balancing act, but it has to start with the player's perspective first and foremost.
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In the MA Summary (where you select arcs to play) I did point out it was a Story Focused arc, intended for solo play and not "for squishies". I've tested the arc with Brutes, scrappers, tankers, SOA's and Widows... all could complete the arc with varying degrees of difficulty. My tests on Blasters, Corrupters, Dominator, Controllers and Defenders did not go so well... way too many deaths and mez problems.
In short I tried my best to inform the player what they should expect.
Respectfully,
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I've not played your arc, but in your story did you create any sort of conflict - that is played out, not just implied - about any of these proposed themes? A situation in which the subject of one of these themes is focused upon and challenged?
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Yes and No.
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"Trust is earned, not given" - Is there a scene where this trust is challenged; that is, where something casts the trust in doubt? To create a conflict, and dramatize this theme, there should probably be something that puts the trust in doubt, and then some event where the trust is justified. In that way we show that the trust is "earned." Running with a premise of "Okay, you do this for me and I'll trust you" isn't sufficiently dramatic. There needs to be an arc (up/down movement). So if you begin with a state of trust ("I'm giving you this mission because I trust you to an extent"), then the next phase must be one of failure and distrust ("I don't know if I can trust you, because of X.") This is then resolved with earned trust ("Okay, I see why things happened that way, and it turns out I really CAN trust you.")
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This is the most obvious theme I believe. Essentially your character is hired to do some jobs for the Mistress. She tells you at the start of Mission 1 she represents " well let's call it the Order for now" She does NOT trust the character completely. Throughout the arc she always tell the character the truth about what they will face. She exhibits concern for the character "get some rest" also she starts calling the character "darling" (a sign of affection). At the start of mission 4, she tells the character that they must raid a Malta base and "find and read all the stolen files and kill anyone who has seen the files", and even Venture commented on this... the character asks "Wait a sec... your killing anyone who sees the files, what happens to me?". The Mistress promises the character will NOT be harmed by her or anyone else. The character shows trust in the Mistress and takes a mission against one of the most deadly opponents in the world. At the end of mission 4, the Mistress says "I owe you the truth" and reveals all about the Order (their real name, purpose and the fact that they are all vampires). She also tells the character about her past. She places all her trust in the character, just like the character did when he did the mission. Also at the end of Mission 5, she says to the character "you have earned our trust" and offers the character the gift of immortality. Could it be any more obvious?
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"One must struggle to retain humanity" - Again, this must be dramatized. What is the challenge to one's humanity? How is this played out in the choices given? Where is the point where the outcome of the struggle to retain humanity comes into doubt? How is this struggle resolved?
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Well this is basically revealed by a speech by the Mistress when she tells you about vampires and the Order which is devoted to peaceful coexistant with humans. All who have joined the Order have done so because they want to "retain their humanity" They constantly struggle against "the beast within that screams for blood". The background of one of the vampires you meet is given in great detail (not the mistress) and it points out that she was overwhelmed with thirst when she was first turned and for months she killed her friends and the horror she felt at what she had done. She joined the Order to retain her humanity. I think it is very clear.
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"Even villains have standards" - You can probably see where I'm going with this. Is this standard demonstrated, and demonstrated in a way that provides dramatic punch? Or is it just a rule that is stated and followed?
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The Mistress many times asks the character not to hurt the innocents, she asks that you rescue many innocents, the Order's stated purpose is NOT to kill humans, even for feeding purposes (well bad guys are an exception!). You capture a superhero for the Mistress and she tortures the superhero into finding out what the superhero knew. She then modifies the memories of the superhero and lets her go (although their is the added reason that killing a superhero would lead to problems)... the Mistress likes to feel and cause pain, but she draws the line at unnecessary killing. Later on she states "we are damned, but we are NOT monsters". It's a constant theme that is continually told throughout the arc. It is demonstrated dramatically I guess through words and the actions of the Mistress and the character.
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"Love arises in the strangest of places" - I think to make this theme emerge, you'd first have to take some pains to create the impression that this "strangest of places" is hard and loveless. You can't just assume that the player sees it that way at the outset. It has to be acted out in some way - or several ways - to create a strong impression. It's only when you have the audience thinking one way about a thing that can you create an impact by giving a twist.
Also, it would be more dramatic if the love was revealed at the end as a motive for NPC actions that have already been witnessed.
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I think this is the most tenuous theme (but since in I15 I hopefully will have more space to expand upon it). Right from the beginning the Mistress states "I have watched you for a long time and I think you might be someone I can work with". Not romantic at first glance, but we'll get there! At the end of mission 1 she is starting to call the character "Darling". I think it's around Mission 3 she comments on how she might show the character "why the word PLEASURE is part of my name" (her name is Mistress of Pain or Pleasure). At the end of mission 5 she offers the character the greatest gift she has... immortality and comments on "how she has grown quite fond of" the character and hopes he will accept (she has a problem saying the words... "I love you" in my mind, but I had no space to expand upon this). Also if the character actually failed any mission (I'm not sure if they actually could the way its setup now), you see another side of the Mistress... were she "plays"... aka Disciplines the character (she should kill the character, but she doesn't want to). She continually finds a reason not to kill the character. Why this would be revealing, would be the contradiction in what she told the character in Mission 1. She told the character he could kill anyone in his way if he wanted to (not the innocents) because she doesn't tolerate incompetence (the Freaks had hired a superhero in disguise to be a hostess at a meeting). But she would ignore that for the character. And the arc Souvenir message has the character pondering the offer of the Mistress... immortality and would it be worth it. Also the character comments about life with the Mistress and how hot... In a very scary way she is! (I wanted to expand upon this as well but ran out of room)
Mission 2 as I originally intended (couldn't do to space limitations) was to expand upon the Mistresses past loves. The werewolf she sent you to kill was her former lover. In a fit of romantic rage (Mistress is a magic user) permanently turned the Werewolf Leader into a massive muscled totally hairless man! He would of been lamenting about how embarrassed he is. Also this would have allowed me to created a custom character for the werewolf leader (personally I think he's too easy to kill).
Basically, the Mistress longs for love, and sees in the character morals she can appreciate and well she just loves the character. All this happens during a very hectic violent week. Love arises in the strangest places after all.
Anyways, as I said this the the one that is the hardest to see. And I really wouldn't fault anyone for not getting that theme (as it currently stands).
Respectfully,
Edited because I forgot to add a line.
Couldn't you, y'know, take that ranting someplace elsewhere?
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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Couldn't you, y'know, take that ranting someplace elsewhere?
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This.
These point by point, walls of text explanations of what Venture didn't understand about your "awesome" arc bug me to no end. It was said that the best thing you could say in response is, "Thanks for the review," and that was it.
Still, it's up to Venture to speak out against them. This is his thread, and if the inane chatter doesn't bother him, then there's nothing I can say.
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Couldn't you, y'know, take that ranting someplace elsewhere?
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/signed
Seriously, speaking as someone whose arc is approximately number 30 in the queue (and eagerly awaiting his review sometime before Christmas 
), it's really frustrating to load up the forums, see that this thread has multiple new pages since I was last here, and instead of finding half a dozen new reviews, finding maybe one review followed by a two-page shitstorm of people debating their bad score.
Do you have a right to respond to criticism? Yes. If you think the review was unfair, then please explain why. But you made your point in the first response, there's no need for this epic back and forth, especially with someone who has openly admitted that he hasn't even played the arc!
I can understand being upset, even offended by the score you got. Just take the debate somewhere else. Reading a dozen posts about why you didn't like the review just makes you seem like you're throwing a whiny tantrum.
Arc ID 181244 - Waves of Chaos
Arc ID 260113 - One Tough Cookie
Issue 15 has done more to slow review progress than the recent ranting. I like doing reviews and I consider reviewing to be a service to the MA community as it promotes both the arcs themselves and the improvement of standards. Polishing my stuff for the upcoming changes to the system does tend to come first though. I had hoped to write some more arcs on Test thanks to the increased slot availability but with i15 "on deadline" it's probably best at this point to wait for it to go live.
Edit: which wasn't much of a wait, was it.... I was expecting another week, frankly. Had hoped to check characters for freespec use today...drat.
I don't mind people defending their work (I just did in MCM's thread but that was because he posted a personal attack described as a review). By my count I owe three people replies, which I hope to get to today. But there is a limit to how much time I am going to spend on one person's work, especially with so many waiting for reviews, and that limit will be hit quickly if I feel people are just retreading the same points or taking comments on their work personally. In such cases I'm just not going to reply.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Well said Venture. You're a better person than I, that's for damn sure.
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Couldn't you, y'know, take that ranting someplace elsewhere?
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This.
These point by point, walls of text explanations of what Venture didn't understand about your "awesome" arc bug me to no end. It was said that the best thing you could say in response is, "Thanks for the review," and that was it.
Still, it's up to Venture to speak out against them. This is his thread, and if the inane chatter doesn't bother him, then there's nothing I can say.
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I think it's natural that the authors of the arcs want to talk about them. If they're looking to get constructive criticism from Venture (and I think they are and do), then the next logical step after a review is to try to clarify things to the point where you can see what needs to be done to make improvements.
However, out of respect for the forum/thread, you don't want to take up too much space or attention.
It seems to me that if there is any defending to be done it should be done once, and briefly. I think it is possible a person could have a defense that is a valid feedback to Venture as a reviewer.
Now ... if the whole point of getting your arc reviewed by Venture is merely to get more hits ... then I can easily see why you'd just thank him and move on. In that case you don't need to argue any points and you don't need to understand anything.
I'm not ranting, I've just answered people that responded to something I wrote.
Respectfully,
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Issue 15 has done more to slow review progress than the recent ranting. I like doing reviews and I consider reviewing to be a service to the MA community as it promotes both the arcs themselves and the improvement of standards. Polishing my stuff for the upcoming changes to the system does tend to come first though. I had hoped to write some more arcs on Test thanks to the increased slot availability but with i15 "on deadline" it's probably best at this point to wait for it to go live.
Edit: which wasn't much of a wait, was it.... I was expecting another week, frankly. Had hoped to check characters for freespec use today...drat.
I don't mind people defending their work (I just did in MCM's thread but that was because he posted a personal attack described as a review). By my count I owe three people replies, which I hope to get to today. But there is a limit to how much time I am going to spend on one person's work, especially with so many waiting for reviews, and that limit will be hit quickly if I feel people are just retreading the same points or taking comments on their work personally. In such cases I'm just not going to reply.
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Not to add to your plate, Venture (especially since I'm waiting for a review, too) but I'm wondering if you could give a run down of what's changed we need to concern ourselves about. I know, I could have done the test thing, but my time is extremely limited (full time job, new baby, yada yada) so I opted to spend what little time I could working on my arcs. Alternately, maybe someone could point to a thread I've missed that discussed the MA changes.
I got on for about 30 minutes around noon and took a look, but nothing jumped out at me. Trying again now...
The SOLUS Foundation - a Liberty and Pinnacle SG
"The Consequences of War" - Arcs # 227331 and 241496
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These point by point, walls of text explanations of what Venture didn't understand about your "awesome" arc bug me to no end. It was said that the best thing you could say in response is, "Thanks for the review," and that was it.
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If for some reason my organized responses "bug you", then I suggest you don't read them.
I don't think my arc is awesome... I think of it as a work in in progress. I've already said I think its a 3 or 4 star arc. I certainly don't think it's a 5 star arc.
I asked Venture for a review and have thanked him twice for that review. But I think he missed a few things and pointed them out. And I have also agreed with some of the things he has said.
I have no personal beef with Venture. In fact I have defended him on a few occasions. Some of you seem to be reading into my comments and jumping to conclusions.
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Still, it's up to Venture to speak out against them. This is his thread, and if the inane chatter doesn't bother him, then there's nothing I can say.
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Yes, he can reply when and if he wants to.
Respectfully,
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Seriously, speaking as someone whose arc is approximately number 30 in the queue (and eagerly awaiting his review sometime before Christmas ), it's really frustrating to load up the forums, see that this thread has multiple new pages since I was last here, and instead of finding half a dozen new reviews, finding maybe one review followed by a two-page shitstorm of people debating their bad score.
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The speed of Venture's reviews has absolutely nothing to do with me commenting on my review. He reviews at his own pace. I patiently waited a long time for my review as well.
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Do you have a right to respond to criticism? Yes. If you think the review was unfair, then please explain why. But you made your point in the first response, there's no need for this epic back and forth, especially with someone who has openly admitted that he hasn't even played the arc!
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Again I responded to someone who wrote to me. It's called being polite. He had questions and I answered them. If you don't want to read the post then skip it.
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I can understand being upset, even offended by the score you got. Just take the debate somewhere else. Reading a dozen posts about why you didn't like the review just makes you seem like you're throwing a whiny tantrum.
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I have responded once to Venture. I said what I wanted to him in that post. Other people responded to me, and I responded to them. If no one else responds to me, then I obviously won't be saying any more about it will I?
If you feel I have somehow been whiny than you have totally misunderstood the situation. I have just been polite enough to answer people that talked to me.
Your lack of response will get the result you desire!
Respectfully,
Getting a 2 Star review doesn't bother me if the concerns are valid. Personally I think it's a 3 or 4 star arc. If a 3 star is to be considered an average COV mission, I think it at the very least qualifies as that.
But I knew going in that he would probably dislike it.
Why?
1. I read that he hated the Arch-magi... Strike 1
2. Long missions are hated... Mission 3 is long... Strike 2
3. Humour is subjective... Hit or Miss... Ball 1 or Strike?
4. Mission 5 tie into the cannon past of the Mu-Orenbegan War... Didn't know if he'd like that or not... Ball 2 or Strike
5. The only custom enemy I have (1 EB) is a pain to kill... then again all Custom EB's seem to be a pain to kill. But I did lower her defense and her attack is as weak as the MA will allow... Strike 3
I saw many things he might not like, and sure enough some of them he didn't like.
But I asked for the review and he gave his opinion.
I have a right to respond to his comments.
Basically I responded paragraph by paragraph to what he wrote. I just responded to what he wrote, and clarified some of the things he wrote about (I don't know if he liked/dislike many things).
If he found it tedious in Mission 2 fighting werewolves because his choice of toon couldn't immobilize them, he's entitled to his opinion. Maybe if he read the Mission Summary that appears when you select a mission in the MA he could have avoided that. It lists werewolves as one of the enemies. If you come into the mission unprepared that's the players fault (at least in this case).
In a couple of cases he got his facts wrong... I corrected them. Eg. Where and when certain enemies spawn, Ally "falling" when she flys, his suspicion of the contacts honesty, etc...
My main concern is his saying bosses are spawning and large groups. This didn't happen to me unless the difficulty was lvl 4. And even then it was manageable. He didn't say what difficulty he was playing at. My goal was lvl 3 Maximum difficulty for the story.
My concern would be if he played an arc at high difficulty and used those results as the basis for the review.
I had Dragonslayer (I think) review this before. He gave it 3 stars mainly because there was too much to do and big maps. He did like the story (which is what I want people to like). I did listen to his suggestions and changed 2 of the maps to smaller sizes. I do like feedback. And I am perfectly willing to listen and adapt if I believe it is a good suggestion.
I think Venture/dragonslayer are correct about Mission 3... 16 rescues are alot. But I wrote with my own bias in mind. I want it to be just 4 rescues, but we can't put 4 people into a rescue group yet. I am very patient and I personally like long missions. (Yes I know I am weird! LOL). I may change the 4 quads to Triplets or twins... thus lowering the rescues to 12 or 8. Hopefully this will make it less tedious.
The clues I can also reduce in number. I didn't think it was really an issue personally, but I can easily reduce them.
But the whole arc is about morality. You have villains (vampires) doing some heroic deeds and asking your villain character to do the same. But don't think they won't resort to violence and bloodshed if the need arises. That is what makes them villains as opposed to heroes. Most heroes won't kill. Those that do are generally in a grey area of morality. In my arc I portray a certain small group of Vampires who try their best NOT to hurt innocents and hurt only those that are evil. But make no mistake about these "good" vampires, if it came down to killing an innocent to survive (need blood desperately) or to protect their very existance (or secret)... they would kill! In that sense they are (in my mind) villainous.
You must also understand these vampires don't want people to know of their existence at all. Acting in an overt open way would be stupid for them. Why risk exposure? They setup proxies to interact with other groups normally (see mission 1). They are a hidden power operating in the shadows. They're "villainy" is subtle.
But the contact was looking to recruit a new member and she actually did the very unusual act of meeting the character directly, instead of through a proxy. The character was worth her notice.
If Venture disagrees and thinks that the contact telling you to kill anyone in your way if your character wants to(except the innocents), telling you that you MUST kill many individuals through the arc and the contact torturing the superhero aren't villainous... well... that's his right to think so.
Throughout the arc the character demonstrates the characteristics (morals) that the contact is ultimately looking for.
For these vampires the struggle to "retain their humanity and not give in to the beast within that screams for blood" is foremost on their mind. It's what separates them from other vampires... and evil people for that matter.
Anyways, I'm talking too much as usual, so let me finish this.
I see a moral/theme in this story, everything is tied together (I think quite well).
Possible themes/morals:
Trust is earned not given... Did the character earn the trust of the contact through the characters actions in the story and was in turn entrusted with the "Order's" secret - YES
That no matter what happens in life, one must retain his humanity... The vampires daily unending internal struggle to deal with what they are - YES
Even Villains have standards... Displayed by the contact's wish to not kill innocents - YES
Love arises in the strangest places... Well the contact seems to come like the character in a rather romantic way by the end of the arc (and yes she is bisexual.. in case you are playing a female character). - YES
That is why I don't agree with Venture on "just a bunch of stuff that happened".
When I spent so much of my limited time working on this arc (I am gone 16 hours a day with work/travel). It is disturbing to see all the work that has gone into the story being ignored and every one of the various themes being missed.