I think the lack of defense debuff resistance is a VEAT wide issue. It does hurt the Bane the most due other mitigation factors (No God mode, self heal, scaling resistance etc...). I'd like to see some debuff resistance on all the branches, and perhaps Banes with the most. It could be added to Wolf Spider armor, Bane Spider armor, Cloaking Device, Combat Training: Defense (for both types), Foresight, and Mask Presence. I'd say keep it off the TT: Maneuvers but I wouldn't mind that was buffed to a skill like Grant Cover.
The higher ranged defense is not really an issue since that power is entirely optional for Soldiers. I'll agree that the lack of options is the true problem. This goes for Fortunatas as well. There should be a way for those particular branches to toggle out of the basic Combat Training : Defense to something more suitable to the new role. This would give melee Forts the opportunity to choose a higher melee defense, and ranged Forts more sensible defenses. Same goes for Banes. Let the Bane have an option to choose. It could be placed in the secondary as one of the first powers. Perhaps it unlocks with Bane Spider armor much like how several Epic AT's have multiple powers unlocking at level 12.
I tend to see the robo-spiders as my T9 defense power. It opens up at 38, lasts several minutes, and increases my survivability while it is up. Banes don't really need something else. Crabs don't need it, and Widows don't need it. Elude. It eludes me why they decided to place that power in the first place when they gave Widows Mind Link. The end recovery is really nice, but the hyper-defense was unnecessary.
The one big buff I can think of for Banes specifically would be allowing HP enhancement for the Bane armor. Other than that most of the quibbles I have with the branch can apply to the VEAT AT as a whole.
Banes also lack good mez protection. Widows and Forts get 10.4 mag, Crabs get 14.4. Banes get 6 at most, though people even skip the first armor power meaning they only get mag 4. For a melee, that's pretty bad.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
I think Banes' issue is that, to make maximum use of its potential, you must be unwieldy. Imagine a Broadsword/Kin Scrapper with Hide and Hidden criticals. To make use of the kin side, he must de-Hide himself. Additionally, using the kin side puts his sword away, requiring redraw. When using the Venom Grenade, you de-Cloak yourself, preventing yourself from criticalling on the first strike. When using Surveillance, you put away your Mace, requiring redraw; this increases the time between strikes, and lowers your DPS. Additionally, since both -res effects are so short-lived--correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both are 20s--these issues will continuously pop up.
That exacerbates the already-existent Bane issue of long cast times.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
[ QUOTE ]
I think Banes' issue is that, to make maximum use of its potential, you must be unwieldy. Imagine a Broadsword/Kin Scrapper with Hide and Hidden criticals. To make use of the kin side, he must de-Hide himself. Additionally, using the kin side puts his sword away, requiring redraw. When using the Venom Grenade, you de-Cloak yourself, preventing yourself from criticalling on the first strike. When using Surveillance, you put away your Mace, requiring redraw; this increases the time between strikes, and lowers your DPS. Additionally, since both -res effects are so short-lived--correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both are 20s--these issues will continuously pop up.
That exacerbates the already-existent Bane issue of long cast times.
[/ QUOTE ]
A bit extreme on the example, but I can agree with where you are going on it. I wouldn't open with Venom Grenade. I'd use it after I was done alpha striking a target using Surveillance - Build Up - Shatter, and then Pulverize if needed. Once that target's buddies bunch up you get into seriously annoying redraw issues if you want to max out your crit damage. Venom Grenade - Placate - Crowd Control. If only players had gotten a special version of Poisonous Ray that was a cone/pbaoe -res, -def, and it locked out Venom Grenade.
They went out of their way to make up new stuff for Crabs like Serum, Fortification, and Omega Maneuver. Banes don't even share the Whirling Mace of their Executioner brothers.
Since lowbie Wolf Spiders occasionally use the Mace Blast power line, and the rifle abilities, I would have liked to have seen a mix of those powers there. They could have the expanded, and newer toys in the Crab/Bane branches. If Banes wanted Mace Blasts they could dip into the Wolf powers like Night Widows do with Blood Widow powers.
Oh well. Dare to dream right?
[ QUOTE ]
Banes also lack good mez protection. Widows and Forts get 10.4 mag, Crabs get 14.4. Banes get 6 at most, though people even skip the first armor power meaning they only get mag 4. For a melee, that's pretty bad.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have never had any problems with being mezzed on my Bane, but I have been mezzed on my WP Brute. It was a pretty extreme on my Brute though. Several minions with Stun all hitting at once, and prior stuns still in effect. I think with the Bane I have the luxury of picking, and choosing my fights. My Brute sort of runs head first into everything. Rawr! I wouldn't mind a buff to the mez protection, but for PvE I haven't missed anything higher than 6.
[ QUOTE ]
I think Banes' issue is that, to make maximum use of its potential, you must be unwieldy. Imagine a Broadsword/Kin Scrapper with Hide and Hidden criticals. To make use of the kin side, he must de-Hide himself. Additionally, using the kin side puts his sword away, requiring redraw. When using the Venom Grenade, you de-Cloak yourself, preventing yourself from criticalling on the first strike. When using Surveillance, you put away your Mace, requiring redraw; this increases the time between strikes, and lowers your DPS. Additionally, since both -res effects are so short-lived--correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both are 20s--these issues will continuously pop up.
That exacerbates the already-existent Bane issue of long cast times.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, basically you sum it up. I've been playing Bane a lot lately just to get to know Bane more.
Surveillance causing weapon redraw annoys me the most.
Poison Ray does a lot of dmg but it takes 2s and then another 3-4s to complete the dmg. A good combo is to start with Venom but that reveals you.
I can live with less defense and the lack of defense debuff resistance (as I think SoA have a lot of defense already and you gotta have some "holes"), but weapon redraw and long activation are annoying.
I don't think Bane is underpowered but the dev can definitely smooth him out with less weapon redraw.
I don't even think Bane needs a lot of +recharge because the activation time is so long. I took Bash, Pulversize, Shatter, Poison Ray and CC and I barely have any time to use Bash because by the time Poison Ray is gone, Pulversize is already up and then Shatter.
And I hate how I can't take Pulversize earlier. I would switch Pulversize with Beam Blast
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Don''t forget there is a thid build.
Having to draw the mace for Surveilance would suck for all the people out there using the Hybrid and huntsman builds.
Though we do have to redraw the gun after surveilance too...
I would definately like to see Survelliance last longer... not sure about the mace redraw....
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
[ QUOTE ]
Having to draw the mace for Surveilance would suck for all the people out there using the Hybrid and huntsman builds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bully for them. Only reason you'd use Hybrid or Huntsman is for AoE, and Surveillance is of little benefit to such builds anyway.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
Surveilance still debufffs bosses and AVs.
You can build for asmuch AoE as you want but you still need single target damage.
I say this becomes the old problem of "Just as much as Subset A hates the animation/aspect of a power, there is just as many in Subset B that loves it.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Having to draw the mace for Surveilance would suck for all the people out there using the Hybrid and huntsman builds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bully for them. Only reason you'd use Hybrid or Huntsman is for AoE, and Surveillance is of little benefit to such builds anyway.
[/ QUOTE ]
Huntsman builds already have to deal with redraw on Build Up, more on Surveillance would just be rude.
Poisonous Ice 50 Ice/Rad
Icy Jax 50 Ice/SS
Jaxon Penn 50 Shield/Mace
Cpt Clax 50 Thugs/Dark
Lady BlackIce 50 Dark/Cold
Lady Black Ice 50 Dark/Ice
Bella Jax 50 Storm/Sonic
Operative Jax 50 SoA
Level 50 Trick Arrow Alts
TA/A-Plant/TA-Bots/TA
Level 50 Claws Scrappers
SR-Regen-DA-Invul-WP-FA
Just for my own curiosity, I built a melee-crab last night using my 2nd build.
I have to say, my melee-crab seems to be doing better than my Bane and it's sad!
I start the battle with Aim (Crab's Aim is 50% dmg boost?) and Venom, jump in to Arm Lash first, then Frenzy. Then I just cycle Slice, Longfang and Arm Lash and Frenzy or Frag Grenade if I am overwhelmed. 
Crab can survival much better and the action is much faster. In fact, this crab is comparable to night widow.
My twin brother and I are both semi-melee Crab now and we are amazed by how good it turns out. Fast action, fun slashing and can still deliver aoe dmg.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Ack, incorrect use of bully. "Bully for bushlad" is a cheer for "bushlad."
Weapon redraw is hyper annoying IMO, anything to reduce or remove it = better for me.
[ QUOTE ]
Ack, incorrect use of bully. "Bully for bushlad" is a cheer for "bushlad."
[/ QUOTE ]
Whoopsie. I've heard it used the other way on several occasions. If I misused it, well, my apologies ^_^
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ack, incorrect use of bully. "Bully for bushlad" is a cheer for "bushlad."
[/ QUOTE ]
Whoopsie. I've heard it used the other way on several occasions. If I misused it, well, my apologies ^_^
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd say that 99 times out of 100, at least in North America, the phrase "bully for you" is used sarcastically such as to mean "whoop-dee-freakin'-doo". Just like "good for you". I see nothing wrong with your usage, unless you meant something completely different.
My story arcs: #2370- Noah Reborn, #18672- The Clockwork War, #31490- Easy Money
Sartre once said, "Hell is other people." What does that make an MMO?
[ QUOTE ]
Just for my own curiosity, I built a melee-crab last night using my 2nd build.
I have to say, my melee-crab seems to be doing better than my Bane and it's sad!
I start the battle with Aim (Crab's Aim is 50% dmg boost?) and Venom, jump in to Arm Lash first, then Frenzy. Then I just cycle Slice, Longfang and Arm Lash and Frenzy or Frag Grenade if I am overwhelmed.
Crab can survival much better and the action is much faster. In fact, this crab is comparable to night widow.
My twin brother and I are both semi-melee Crab now and we are amazed by how good it turns out. Fast action, fun slashing and can still deliver aoe dmg.
[/ QUOTE ]
I tested this out the other day solo, because I remember you talking about this just to see how it would do. Well I am impressed but not that impressed how they are survivable they still don't deliver as much damage, I attempted to solo an EB, I won, however, the time it took to win was unbearable. I might take the presence pool so pets don't take aggro, those little spiderlings were getting one shotted and when they get gone.
I mean as far as dps goes they were kinda horrible, Bash from hide does more damage than Armlash, Pulverize > Armlash, and Build up + Crowd Control >>> Aim + Frenzy.
As far as taking and giving damage Crabs are good tanks, but from what I have seen they don't do as much damage a Banes. A melee Crab is very survivable but they do their best at range, even though you can use ranged attacks in melee the ranged cones are far better at range and it also keeps your pets from going into melee too.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just for my own curiosity, I built a melee-crab last night using my 2nd build.
I have to say, my melee-crab seems to be doing better than my Bane and it's sad!
I start the battle with Aim (Crab's Aim is 50% dmg boost?) and Venom, jump in to Arm Lash first, then Frenzy. Then I just cycle Slice, Longfang and Arm Lash and Frenzy or Frag Grenade if I am overwhelmed.
Crab can survival much better and the action is much faster. In fact, this crab is comparable to night widow.
My twin brother and I are both semi-melee Crab now and we are amazed by how good it turns out. Fast action, fun slashing and can still deliver aoe dmg.
[/ QUOTE ]
I tested this out the other day solo, because I remember you talking about this just to see how it would do. Well I am impressed but not that impressed how they are survivable they still don't deliver as much damage, I attempted to solo an EB, I won, however, the time it took to win was unbearable. I might take the presence pool so pets don't take aggro, those little spiderlings were getting one shotted and when they get gone.
I mean as far as dps goes they were kinda horrible, Bash from hide does more damage than Armlash, Pulverize > Armlash, and Build up + Crowd Control >>> Aim + Frenzy.
As far as taking and giving damage Crabs are good tanks, but from what I have seen they don't do as much damage a Banes. A melee Crab is very survivable but they do their best at range, even though you can use ranged attacks in melee the ranged cones are far better at range and it also keeps your pets from going into melee too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Soloing wise, I am sure Bane does more dmg than Crab. The semi-melee build I run is mostly with my twin brother and we usually invite full team.
Maybe I am just annoyed with Bane's weapon redraw. I like to use debuffs and each time I use, I have to redraw. I think it slows down Bane, at least on the "feeling" side.
Crab's damage is decent with Venom grenade. I plan on using Assault when I get afford either Numina/Miracle.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I too hate the weapon redraw for survallence, but I am starting to believe within making the Bane AT the devs took into consideration Huntsman/Hybrid builds.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
[ QUOTE ]
I too hate the weapon redraw for survallence, but I am starting to believe within making the Bane AT the devs took into consideration Huntsman/Hybrid builds.
[/ QUOTE ]
You need to draw both Rifle and Mace. If they have that in mind, they should have gotten rid of rifle redraw after respec?
I don't know. I think Bane is ok... probably the weakest of the 4. I used to come here to depend Bane but after trying him out more and more, I feel Bane is ok.
Bane with leadership(s) is still very valuable especially on a team where resistance debuffs are lacking. Bane can fill that hole well.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I think they just need to make banes with more melee attacks like the spin the exacutioners do and maybe a few others. Make them more like the night widow has like 6-7 attacks in melee.
------------------------------------------------------------ Stealth is your ally -------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------- Trust no one ------------------------------------------------------------------
Bane with leadership, why not just crab with leadership. It's the same power and it's available for both branches.
Ok. On more serious note.
Sure the redraw and animations make my bane build feel almost like a tank (the vehicle, not AT), clunky as hell, but at the same time not being as sturdy.
No matter how many QoL changes they do to the mace, it is not going to remedy the problem I have with banes; they don't survive well when fight goes downhill for them.
When the fight goes hectic, there is hardly anything that stops bane from dying, other than the defence (which in order to get to acceptable level needs bunch of damn third power pools and set bonuses). Especially when the enemies pull attacks that deal -def you know you're screwed.
Rest of the VEAts seem to have some sort of panic power, even crab has heal. So what is bane suppose to do when they are about to bit the dust, pop bunch of greens and run?
[ QUOTE ]
I think they just need to make banes with more melee attacks like the spin the exacutioners do and maybe a few others. Make them more like the night widow has like 6-7 attacks in melee.
[/ QUOTE ]
your thinking of whirling mace and i think it be great if they dropped 1 of those crappy aoe/cone blasts to fit in whirling mace.
i also think it be a great help (to mace powers in general) if they increased the chance to stun on Bash and Pulverize. 10% for bash and 20% for pulverize is too low
[ QUOTE ]
The subject of Bane Spiders effectiveness has been brought up over and over again. I'm not of the opinion that they need buffs but I have noticed several oddities that are counter to their role as Defense based meleers. I'd like to get a discussion going as to whether those oddities need correcting and, if so, how to go about doing it. I'll start by listing what I've noticed.
<ul type="square">[*] Banes lack Defense debuff resistance. This is a well known bit of information that some consider an oversight. Compounding the issue is that they have no other means of reacting to such debuffs. Self-heals and other common methods have to be picked up from power pools.
[*] Banes' have higher ranged Defense than melee Defense. For a toon that's intended to stay in melee range, particularly one that's capable of closing with foes without being detected (And therefore reducing its chances of facing ranged attacks) this is counter intuitive and can be very detrimental under certain circumstances.
[*] Banes lack a Tier 9 God Mode power. Other Defense based powersets (Most notably Super Reflexes and Night Widow Teamwork) contain powers that drastically increase Defense for a period of time. Banes have no such capability.[/list]
While none of the things listed above are crippling to Banes (At least I haven't noticed any such thing while playing mine), they do stand out as a bit strange when considering the role Bane Spiders are designed to take on.
[/ QUOTE ]
The main issue with banes, is that 2 of the powers in the secondary should have been in the Primary, leaving way for two survivability powers there, and losing two of the blasts wouldn't have hurt that badly for ranged builds, since the BS Patron blasts are arguably as good as the bane Mace Blasts.
Also, Hide not giving VEATs the AOE defense aggravated me to no end as a Bane.
Yeah I have been wondering what the hell is a single target hold doing in the bane secondary.
The odd thing is that The Banes could have easily been given more powers in their secondary, Forts and Nights each have more than four powers.
The subject of Bane Spiders effectiveness has been brought up over and over again. I'm not of the opinion that they need buffs but I have noticed several oddities that are counter to their role as Defense based meleers. I'd like to get a discussion going as to whether those oddities need correcting and, if so, how to go about doing it. I'll start by listing what I've noticed.
<ul type="square">[*] Banes lack Defense debuff resistance. This is a well known bit of information that some consider an oversight. Compounding the issue is that they have no other means of reacting to such debuffs. Self-heals and other common methods have to be picked up from power pools.
[*] Banes' have higher ranged Defense than melee Defense. For a toon that's intended to stay in melee range, particularly one that's capable of closing with foes without being detected (And therefore reducing its chances of facing ranged attacks) this is counter intuitive and can be very detrimental under certain circumstances.
[*] Banes lack a Tier 9 God Mode power. Other Defense based powersets (Most notably Super Reflexes and Night Widow Teamwork) contain powers that drastically increase Defense for a period of time. Banes have no such capability.[/list]
While none of the things listed above are crippling to Banes (At least I haven't noticed any such thing while playing mine), they do stand out as a bit strange when considering the role Bane Spiders are designed to take on.