[ QUOTE ]
The odd thing is that The Banes could have easily been given more powers in their secondary, Forts and Nights each have more than four powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Widow Training: 8
Night Widow Training: 6
Teamwork: 7
Widow Teamwork: 6
Total: 27
Widow Training: 8
Fortunata Training: 10
Teamwork: 7
Fortunata Teamwork: 5
Total: 30
Arachnos Soldier: 8
Bane Spider Soldier: 10
Training and Gadgets: 8
Bane Spider Training: 4
Total: 30
Arachnos Soldier: 8
Crab Spider Soldier: 10
Training and Gadgets: 8
Crab Spider Training: 4
Total: 30
They have the same number of powers, except Night Widow who get a few less, oddly. They're just in different places.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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[ QUOTE ]
Banes' have higher ranged Defense than melee Defense. For a toon that's intended to stay in melee range, particularly one that's capable of closing with foes without being detected (And therefore reducing its chances of facing ranged attacks) this is counter intuitive and can be very detrimental under certain circumstances.
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They should even out Combat Training: Defensive for all Positional defense.
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Banes lack a Tier 9 God Mode power. Other Defense based powersets (Most notably Super Reflexes and Night Widow Teamwork) contain powers that drastically increase Defense for a period of time. Banes have no such capability.
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The should give banes stalker patrons for the hibernate or shadowmeld or add to the current patons and give them Force of Nature in Mace Mastery and Power Surge in Mu Mastery. I know it would not be the normal 3 min duration for a tier 9 power, but I will be happy for a 2 min tier 9 types power. Its better than nothing.
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Yeah I have been wondering what the hell is a single target hold doing in the bane secondary.
[/ QUOTE ]
The same reason why Doms have it in their primary...
Active defense.
How much damage is a held target doing to you?
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Yep, Banes are meant to blap, not toe-to-toe melee (this is obvious upon examining their strengths and weaknesses). Web Cocoon is very useful for slowing down tough bosses so you can kite them.
This is an aspect of their play most seem to miss. Active defense is very much a part of their apparent intended play style.
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
[ QUOTE ]
Yep, Banes are meant to blap, not toe-to-toe melee (this is obvious upon examining their strengths and weaknesses). Web Cocoon is very useful for slowing down tough bosses so you can kite them.
This is an aspect of their play most seem to miss. Active defense is very much a part of their apparent intended play style.
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QFT, however, the hold they get is pretty nice when slotted, it doesn't just slow them down but stops them altogether, not to mention the 2 pets you get with their own hold too. Pointless to need defense when you are not getting hit lol.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
If I recall it's the same mag as petrifying gaze, so it's going to hold a LT and boss with 2 hits.
Yeah one foe is not going to do damage to bane when held, but his friends will rip the bane apart. The rest are still functional and active.
I doubt bane is going to die against one lieautenant or boss, it's the bigger groups and elite bosses that will push your defence down and rip you a new one.
Just imagine getting swarmed in SF, web is not going to save you.
If you're in 1 vs 1 web may work, but imagine bigger groups and elite bosse, and you will bump into them, but I guess I won't be needing defence then?
Besides, doms got a damn inherent power that helps with holds, banes don't. Not to mention Doms are Doms.
To me the web hold looks like it was just thrown in there, because they were either out of ideas or were afraid that banes would be too superb, but that is just me. Personally I would have put there a "MoG", self heal or Aoe -tohit like smoke grenade.
And crabs can blap too, just happens they got a panic power.
Edit:
Also I was going to say something about banes not being designed to meelee, but I don't feel like getting into that damn argument. I'd rather discuss it in game over a team or PM here at forums.
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If I recall it's the same mag as petrifying gaze, so it's going to hold a LT and boss with 2 hits.
Yeah one foe is not going to do damage to bane when held, but his friends will rip the bane apart.
I doubt bane is going to die against one lieautenant or boss, it's the bigger groups and elite bosses that will push your defence down and rip you a new one.
Just imagine getting swarmed in SF, web is not going to save you.
If you're in 1 vs 1 web may work, but imagine bigger groups and elite bosse, and you will bump into them, I guess I won't be needing defence then.
Besides, doms got a damn inherent power that helps with holds, banes don't.
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Ok if you are solo then you don't need to worry about big groups as size of the mobs is scaled to the amount of people in the team. On a team if I have to do all the work then that is just another story.
Solo against an EB my SO'ed Bane did not have any problems, so if you are then L2P.
Yes my one mag 3 hold isn't going to do anything but I have two pets with a mag 3 hold as well so solo against anything other than the PToD you are pretty much safe
As for the inherent for Doms, unless you perma it your holds are mag 3 while outside of domination.
As for fighting most times I only use webnade to take out an annoying minion or LT (i.e. sappers), and in most paper mishes when I don't feel like bothering that much with the boss I will just double stack and go to work or play around with them.
As for SF's I don't worry about things like holding or mitigating because at that point if I am on a team with 7 other people and no one else can mitigate, buff, or debuff then we are probably going to be in some trouble, however, I think a Bane would still be good against 8 man scaled mobs as mine took out 2 at the same time. AV/Heros another story don't too much care about soloing them. To me any AT that can do that with just SO's is far from needing a buff.
EDIT:
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And crabs can blap too, just happens they got a panic power.
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As for this lol. I played with my Bane a week after they came out live, so everything was new to me as far as playing them. Since then I have not wanted nor needed a panic power at most the only thing I have need was atleast a small purple anything else was too damn much.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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Ok if you are solo then you don't need to worry about big groups as size of the mobs is scaled to the amount of people in the team. On a team if I have to do all the work then that is just another story.
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Yeah like you have never got swarmed when solo. I mean that NEVER happens.
And yeah I guessed it, "It's another story".
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L2P.
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I actually knew to expect the "learn to play"-card and you sure didn't disappoint there, too. How can I argue against that, oh no.
Yeah I know I can't play when EB in AE hits me for 1,8k damage and 1k ranged (AE). Or when EB demolishes the pets in few hits, oh believe me I have seen it happen on (vague term) "better players" than me, but I guess they need to "l2p", too. Oh dear.
Everyone of these people who bring up possible holes in bane game, needs to learn to play?
Vast majority the Eb's are breeze for me in the actual game, but there are really annoying ones too and even the annoying ones come with mobs.
I'd hate to rely on the Disruptor pets, because they don't withstand anything if they are targetted.
Not to mention -def is really common.
But hey, I guess I just need to learn to play, because that means everything is just working as intended. But you will surely accept any buff that would come to banes at the same time? Even an actual self heal or panic power of some sort? Of course.
And doms are doms, they got more holds than 1, not to mention there are AOEs mixed in. I really don't want to discuss Dom and Bane relevance on VEAT forum.
You can theorize this all you want.
But I wont turn this thread into "Me, you, me, you and I do it THIS way!" tug of war anymore than I have to.
But if you want to discuss this then I suggest you send me a PM here or contact me at @Gaspard in game.
Oh... a Bane talk...
My bane, Spider Scout, is great in both PvE and PvP. I only took single target hits; Pulverize, Shatter, Mace Blast, etc; and I took all my defensive powers + Leadership Maneveurs. I was doing great in PvE against minions/Lts and they had a 65% chance to hit without me slotted. I single targeted them all to death, and moved to the next group. Slotted he's even better, I hit Defense cap on S/L and close to it with Fire/Cold and NRG/Neg. Soloing he's a beast, and with a team I still get suprised looks from the other ATs on how well he does.
Like every AT, building/slotting is the best way to find the true potential of the AT. Even if it is one like the Bane. *Shrugs* Sure he doesn't have a T9, but slotted makes me almost good enough to the point I don't need one. I still die, not saying he's a tank, but played right and their true potential comes out. (I didn't grab my T9 on any of my scrappers cause it's useless once slotted)
Now for my rants ^^
Animation Times: Yes, they are a bit long. Mace has always been a bit long with animation times. I can see them maybe dropping it a few .3 seconds, but that's about it. To keep the game balanced, Animation times need to work per Power strength. Shatter is strong even outside of Hide so it's going to have a longer animation time than Pulverize.
Defense: I want debuff defense resistance since that is all we have.... I got it so my Bane has some resist, about 10% (20% in PvP) but it's not enough to survive off of. PvP, Surveillance from the Blasters + Kat -def [censored] me indefinately.
Web Cocoon: I love it. Saves me so many times with a +Hold proc in it. Yes, it might be expensive and most players bypass it but it helps me in PvE and PvP. Not to say it's good or bad, it's personal likings of the power, but even a single target hold can save your can from behind cleaned.
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Ok if you are solo then you don't need to worry about big groups as size of the mobs is scaled to the amount of people in the team. On a team if I have to do all the work then that is just another story.
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Yeah like you have never got swarmed when solo. I mean that NEVER happens.
And yeah I guessed it, "It's another story".
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L2P.
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I actually knew to expect the "learn to play"-card and you sure didn't disappoint there, too. How can I argue against that, oh no.
Yeah I know I can't play when EB in AE hits me for 1,8k damage and 1k ranged (AE). Or when EB demolishes the pets in few hits, oh believe me I have seen it happen on (vague term) "better players" than me, but I guess they need to "l2p", too. Oh dear.
Everyone of these people who bring up possible holes in bane game, needs to learn to play?
Vast majority the Eb's are breeze for me in the actual game, but there are really annoying ones too and even the annoying ones come with mobs.
I'd hate to rely on the Disruptor pets, because they don't withstand anything if they are targetted.
Not to mention -def is really common.
But hey, I guess I just need to learn to play, because that means everything is just working as intended. But you will surely accept any buff that would come to banes at the same time? Even an actual self heal or panic power of some sort? Of course.
And doms are doms, they got more holds than 1, not to mention there are AOEs mixed in. I really don't want to discuss Dom and Bane relevance on VEAT forum.
You can theorize this all you want.
But I wont turn this thread into "Me, you, me, you and I do it THIS way!" tug of war anymore than I have to.
But if you want to discuss this then I suggest you send me a PM here or contact me at @Gaspard in game.
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I will just say this last statement for you Gasp. If I am a Novice at a certain AT, not even a novice a beginner as I have never touched a stalker or played with Mace at all before a Bane. But if I a beginner is running through 2 8man mob, taking on EBs solo, and just overall beasting solo PvE content as a beginner, I would say that someone with even a little experience having trouble would need to L2P before saying something is broken.
As for what was said about the pets, if Banes were at the bottom you pretty much put Crabs there in their place, the only thing they have from what you just said is a self heal and some resists. Even then those resists don't help them much for EB level damage and when all of their pets are gone they do piss poor dps.
And not to make this a debate about Doms just stating facts, most doms get one ST mag 3 hold. They do get an AoE hold but the rate at which it can be used is simply horrible.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The odd thing is that The Banes could have easily been given more powers in their secondary, Forts and Nights each have more than four powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Widow Training: 8
Night Widow Training: 6
Teamwork: 7
Widow Teamwork: 6
Total: 27
Widow Training: 8
Fortunata Training: 10
Teamwork: 7
Fortunata Teamwork: 5
Total: 30
Arachnos Soldier: 8
Bane Spider Soldier: 10
Training and Gadgets: 8
Bane Spider Training: 4
Total: 30
Arachnos Soldier: 8
Crab Spider Soldier: 10
Training and Gadgets: 8
Crab Spider Training: 4
Total: 30
They have the same number of powers, except Night Widow who get a few less, oddly. They're just in different places.
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The Nightwidows don't get any redraw off of the blood widow powers unless the widow has used one of the few Psy Powers they have, Banes(leaving crabs out of this since their primary is just an upgraded Wolf Spider one) that take the wolf powers have to switch between weapons, and aside from Venom Grenade there's nothing that is that great.
Also if Banes are ment as blappers, why are the Banes Mace Powers not alot better than their Patron Counterparts.
I have a 50 Crab and a 44 Bane. I wish I had a 50 Bane, because I dig the Bane - it's so COOL. However, it's not as fun to play because I hate, HATE relying on stupid Aid Self or green pills. The fun, for me, is figuring out how to work all of my builds so I can handle bank bosses at difficulty level 5.
The big difference is two-fold, IMHO.
First, Crab can easily - easily - immobilize virtually anything, and stand back and pick it apart. Sure, it's a bit slower than Bane but not in my experience as painful as some would suggest. Couple great ranged defense, great resists, and a very solid ranged attack chain, and you have lots of dead bank bosses. I can't remember the last time stupid Cacophony got the best of my Crab.
Second, I get the feeling some folks are really downplaying resistance. My first 50 was a tank some years back, Invuln... and then I played a Regen scrapper. Whoa! Man, I missed those resists. I am running around on the Crab with very respectable defenses AND solid resists. Oh, and the self heal/buff.
Since about 40 the Crab had absolutely no problem whatsoever running bank missions at 5. I can barely do it with the Bane now, almost regardless of tactics. Oh, if I pop purple pills, and chomp green skittles I can kill the bosses no problem! That's not my point - in a pure comparison, Crab has no problem treading where Bane isn't the best (for me). To make a skittle comparison, eat a couple of reds with the Crab and he'll kill really fast like the Bane.
From a "L2P" perspective (before someone drops that on poor, squishy me), one thing I've played around with and find somewhat tedious is to capitalize on KD as a soft control mechanism to augment defense. To that end, I have Air Superiority in my main attack chain. So, start with Surveillance, hidden strike with Shatter, then follow up with pulverize, then Crowd Control, Air Superiority, back to Shatter, etc. That's great - except the one or two hits that make it through ANYWAY tend to take me to blinky red because of my low resists. I'm running Tough, but that only helps so much. When I'm 50 if I invest 8 jillion inf, I can get sort of decent resists, but nothing near what I could get for same investment on Crab.
Honestly it just feels like Bane faces the same problem any AT that relies largely on streaky math faces: the occasional big hits that get through just hurt really bad. SR plays the same way: you're an untouchable phantom of death and then you're faceplanted, and there's not a lot you can do about it.
While I would LIKE to have a self-heal of some sort (just because I don't like Aid Self for concept or animation - it's absolutely trivial to reliably cast it in combat with Bane), and I would LIKE to have some resists, I think the main thing I would actually ASK for would simply be very solid Def Debuff Resist.
Of course, the big thing Banes lack as compared to other similar defense ATs is any sort of Tier 9 like Elude. I'd happily accept the crash to push through a tough battle, and it seems well in keeping with the similar concept of the Crab "shooting up" when the going gets rough - some sort of "stims." If I could wish for one thing for my birthday (other than that pony I never got?) it would probably be something like MoG or Elude. The pets are great, and I have 'em: but they won't pull Bank Boss agro. Ever. Of course, they might manage to immob the boss, but I still have to close to kill him.
Oddly, on paper a ranged Bane should do very well in terms of efficiency over time. However, I tried it a few times on test and it was tedious and boring... and misses all the frenetic FUN of being a Bane and clubbing things to death. Er, defeat.
So my take, for what it's worth: in my situation, it's very, very hard for me to love my Bane, because the Crab does the same things at a higher difficulty level effortlessly. That's what I find hard to figure out. I get that not everything is created equal, I just haven't really yet encountered anything that my Bane can do that my Crab can't.
As to some sentiment that resists aren't that great against heavy hitters: far as I've always understood it's basically a percentage thing. If you hit me for 100, and I have 50% resist, I take 50. If you hit me for 1000 and I have 50% resist, I take 500. Over time, I think the theory is that it evens out - if a Bane is only hit 1 time in 10 for 1000, and a Crab is hit 5 times in 10 for 200, it'll be the same. However, it's clearly not that simple. And, of course, with a high-level Crab it's more like "gets hit 1 time in 10 for 200." Clearly that's not real math based on any data delving, it's just a quick illustration. So, I'd rather have BOTH in healthy measure if I can, to be honest.
One thing I'll honestly admit: my Bane is much more "blue efficient" than my Crab. Having said that, I don't really care... with the Crab all it means is I can't just spam all my attacks all day long because I'm running 42 toggles. With Bane I don't need to run all those toggles, so I have endurance to spare - as long as I survive. And to be fair I typically survive, I just hate having to run away. Personal preference! I know, I want my cake... I want to not have to run, but I want to not have to rely on skittle. Of course, I believe I can reasonably expect that outcome, since I already HAVE it with the Crab.
Bane gets props for some of the coolest looking anims EVER though!!! Shatter all the way.
Cheers...
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Since about 40 the Crab had absolutely no problem whatsoever running bank missions at 5. I can barely do it with the Bane now, almost regardless of tactics. Oh, if I pop purple pills, and chomp green skittles I can kill the bosses no problem! That's not my point - in a pure comparison, Crab has no problem treading where Bane isn't the best (for me). To make a skittle comparison, eat a couple of reds with the Crab and he'll kill really fast like the Bane.
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Wow guess my work is never done. Right now you have pretty much said you could not play with a /SR scrapper. Not trying to question your tactics or skill, but maybe you should look at your powers and slotting with your Bane. With my Bane I was soloing even level EB's at 24 and soloing +2 and +3 EBs at 32 without insperations or IOs for that matter (didn't IO til 40). So if you are having trouble robbing a bank at 40 you should definitely look into your powers and slotting because at that level you shouldn't even need tactics
SR Scrapper
Total of 19.49 unenhaced total powers 6
Bane Spider
TT:M 10%
Suppressed 3.75%
Combat Jumping 2.5%
Manuvers 3.5%
Total 19.75% 4 powers. Note did not include CT as it only does range.
Overall the only thing that SR scrappers have is scaling resists and def debuff (I wouldn't mind this being added to Banes). But Banes get resists and an Hp buff, pets, and placate, items which a SR scrapper does not have. Not trying to say with power pools that even SR scrappers have access to a Bane is better, I was just showing how with a little bit it can go a long way. So I am not saying that you are a bad player I would just say you need to look at a couple of things in your toon.
Note: Yes a SR scrapper can get CJ and Manuvers but it takes them 6 powers already to get what a Bane can get with 4.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Ok here is one thing that I don't agree with since a certain point was brought up. Banes getting base powers that are exactly the same as patron powers (Looking at Damage/Recharge they are the same) we should get a different patron branch or two replacement powers.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
The Black Scorpion blasts aren't the same as the Bane blasts. The Patron attacks do higher damage at higher endurance, and recharge costs. We would only be so lucky if Mace Beam Blast did the damage of Disruptor Blast. I wonder if we could lobby for changing the single target Patron blast to Jawbreaker/Clobber, and the AoE to Whirling mace! 
@da captain - when you were comparing SR and bane defense you listed pool powers that SR has acess to as well, and SR has elude to give an extra boost defense against stronger opponents, plus scaling resists and debuff resistance.
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The Black Scorpion blasts aren't the same as the Bane blasts. The Patron attacks do higher damage at higher endurance, and recharge costs. We would only be so lucky if Mace Beam Blast did the damage of Disruptor Blast. I wonder if we could lobby for changing the single target Patron blast to Jawbreaker/Clobber, and the AoE to Whirling mace!
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Ok in that since they are the same, by the way the powers are made up. If I have fire blast that recharges in 4 secs and one that recharges in 8 secs the one that recharges in 8 secs will do more damage. Hince that is why /Elec for Doms has higher damaging melee attacks, because they use more endurance and have more recharge thus making more damage. So in that sense overall the BS pool is not more damaging it just appears that way with the extra end cost and more recharge, so overall they really are the same power.
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@da captain - when you were comparing SR and bane defense you listed pool powers that SR has acess to as well, and SR has elude to give an extra boost defense against stronger opponents, plus scaling resists and debuff resistance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Reading helps a lot, here is what I said in my post
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Overall the only thing that SR scrappers have is scaling resists and def debuff (I wouldn't mind this being added to Banes). But Banes get resists and an Hp buff, pets, and placate, items which a SR scrapper does not have. Not trying to say with power pools that even SR scrappers have access to a Bane is better, I was just showing how with a little bit it can go a long way. So I am not saying that you are a bad player I would just say you need to look at a couple of things in your toon.
Note: Yes a SR scrapper can get CJ and Manuvers but it takes them 6 powers already to get what a Bane can get with 4.
[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't include Elude because a properly built SR doesn't need it. And yes SR scrappers do have access to a couple of those powers but already SR is using 6 powers to get what a Bane gets in 4 look at that. To my knowledge I don't think an AT should be able to take a couple of extra powers and beat a set specialty, like my Blaster can't take those powers and beat an SR scrapper. Oh yeah as for scaling resists I don't like the fact of losing health for resistances.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't include Elude because a properly built SR doesn't need it. And yes SR scrappers do have access to a couple of those powers but already SR is using 6 powers to get what a Bane gets in 4 look at that. To my knowledge I don't think an AT should be able to take a couple of extra powers and beat a set specialty, like my Blaster can't take those powers and beat an SR scrapper. Oh yeah as for scaling resists I don't like the fact of losing health for resistances.
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There are a lot of balance factors between sets, but "number of powers" isn't usually one of them. If you're going to include pool powers, you have to do it universally. Otherwise you're only skewing the numbers for your own means. It doesn't matter that it's X number of powers versus Y. Earth only needs ONE power to have superior defense, but there are other factors at hand.
Number of powers isn't the issue, because SR uses more powers but as a result gets MORE defense, MORE DDR, and scaling resists. And "I don't like to lose HP for resistance" doesn't invalidate the existence of the scaling resist either. Try comparing things like end usage, not number of powers.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't include Elude because a properly built SR doesn't need it. And yes SR scrappers do have access to a couple of those powers but already SR is using 6 powers to get what a Bane gets in 4 look at that. To my knowledge I don't think an AT should be able to take a couple of extra powers and beat a set specialty, like my Blaster can't take those powers and beat an SR scrapper. Oh yeah as for scaling resists I don't like the fact of losing health for resistances.
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It doesn't matter that it's X number of powers versus Y. Earth only needs ONE power to have superior defense, but there are other factors at hand.
Number of powers isn't the issue, because SR uses more powers but as a result gets MORE defense, MORE DDR, and scaling resists.
[/ QUOTE ]
I see where you are coming from but on a couple of points just have a couple a comments
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There are a lot of balance factors between sets, but "number of powers" isn't usually one of them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually this should be a factor due to the fact number of power choices means that I have more room to add for more thing that could fill in holes. If you really look at it an /SR scrapper has 6 powers needed for its defense in all areas, a Widow has 4 (I really don't like including Mind Link as it is not perma but Banes have tools that are not perma as well that are very helpful) And a Bane has 2.
I am not including CT as it only includes one aspect of defense.
You all talk about filling in holes Banes have plenty of room for other powers to fill in those holes. A tight build usually doesn't have many holes at the cost of being tight requiring almost all the powers from the set. When your build isn't tight you have room to fill in holes. So number of powers does a lot more than you think. Each AT has at least one thing in common and that is the number of powers you can choose if you are using more for one aspect then you might not have room to fufill other aspects. So when it comes down to number of powers don't sell it so short.
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If you're going to include pool powers, you have to do it universally. Otherwise you're only skewing the numbers for your own means.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really Skewing it for my own means. Like I said above it takes 6 powers for a SR scrapper to get its defense, it would be skewed if I made the Bane have 7 or if the Bane had enhanced defenses but I didn't I just filled in spaces. Since it takes 6 choices for a SR to get its defense, and a Bane only has 2 I can use the extra 4 power choices to build on defense, however, it only takes 2 for the Bane to get equvilant defenses.
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And "I don't like to lose HP for resistance" doesn't invalidate the existence of the scaling resist either.
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This defeats the whole purpose of not getting hit. However, Bane has perma resists that are on all the time so honestly I think averaged out the small perma resists add up to the scaling resists, as you get a little at yellow, and a lot when you get to red. However, at the same time you talk about the defense debuff resists that are so superior.
I mean honestly I think the Bane is balenced, the other defense sets have def debuff res for def through debuffs and scaling resists so that when health is low you have some decent res. Banes have Resists and higher hp so that they can shave a little damage off and take more all the time, and decent defenses so not a lot of attacks come in. It would be nice if they did have just a little def debuff res though but they have a lot of other tools to mitigate and stop a lot of oncoming damage like KD, a hold, and even the small disorient lol (even though I usually kill the minions before they get disoriented but every now and again I see one walking around stupid) would be nice if it where mag 3 with atleast a 10% higher chance on each power.
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Try comparing things like end usage, not number of powers.
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As much as I would like to it really isn't worth it 6 powers to 4 and we all know that SR is end heavy, I didn't even mention the click that has to be activated every 2 min for mez protection. In no way was I trying to down play a SR or make a Bane better I was just trying to show the person having trouble that it doesn't take much for a Bane to have high defenses, I didn't mention the other things a Bane has that a SR doesn't that can keep you alive.
It is really hard for me to see something wrong with them because Dev's have yet to make even somewhat as a comment on them and they have been out for about year. I could be wrong they may have overlooked something, but so far they are WAI, and if you are having trouble it maybe the player that is broken and not the AT.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
And here I was just expressing my opinion, vis-a-vis the discussion points in the post. Sure didn't mean to give you any "more work." Sorry 'bout that.
I'm confused by your comparisons: are you comparing an SR Scrapper with baseline powers to a Bane running pools? Might as well compare a baseline Crab to a fully IO'd Bane, otherwise we're not talking about apples and apples. Clearly anyone can take extra powers from pools and add bonuses from IO sets.
For a more apples and apples comparison, a "normal IO" SR build is around 30% defense. Bane is closer to 15% except for ranged.
But it doesn't really matter: my point was the streaky math thing. Since the Bane relies almost exclusively on defense, he is very vulnerable to both defense debuffs and "lucky hits." Resistance builds could be considered less reliant on "luck" to carry the day. you can have 40% defense, and still get hit really, really hard with the streakbreaker or just a bad roll.
I can, and do, play a Bane and an SR built. It's just not my style, because I don't like the "miss-miss-miss-dead" chain. It happens; some people did that level of adrenaline, some don't. I never said it was crap, or that it was broken, only that for me I found it odd that Crab seemed to do the same things better in some circumstances, and that I was grasping for what Bane did that Crab couldn't.
My Bane as built is running at just shy of 30% ranged defense, and around 16% defense to the rest. That's 45 IOs, no sets to speak of, won't until 50. That's w/o Cloaking Device running (although I do run it all the time) - obviously there's still a bit of defense even suppressed.
I thought I was crystal clear in my ramblings above: with the Crab, I don't even need to use my self heal, let alone any pills to kill a bank boss. With the Bane, I almost always have to use Aid Self against bank bosses - almost nothing else ever touches me because I kill it so fast. And frequently I have to use a green pill or two as well. All attacks are 3-slotted for damage, and all but Bash are 6-slotted overall. All defense and resist powers (except Wolf Spider Armor) are 3-slotted for defense/resist as appropriate. So, my defenses are mature, as is my attack chain. I am not running maneuvers or CJ.
When a bank boss at 5 difficulty level connects with me a second time (which it virtually always does - this is not "I tried it once" this is 30+ levels of running primarily paper/bank missions), typically that takes me down to blinky, and I have to react. I am absolutely at a loss as to how I could change that fact - until I am very, very heavily invested in IO sets. Pets can not pull bank boss agro off.
I already touched on "tactics" a bit: sneak in, hit hard (built-up and surveilled Shatter), get boss flopping with KD if possible, if necessary run off around a corner and use Aid Self. But I've not infrequently been dropped in a heartbeat by bosses like Cacophony who debuff and then do that awful tier 9.
I am absolutely perplexed as to how, with something on the order of 15-20% melee defense, you're managing not to get hit most of the time bu grape bosses. 20% is respectable defense... until you're being hit by a purple bank boss or some hard hitters like grape warwolves.
Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way questioning whether or not you did these things. All I'm saying is that with around 20% defense I get hit frequently enough in these conditions to need to heal myself in combat. I have no idea why our play experiences are so different with basically the same AT with the same basic levels of defense.
Again, my build has mature attack chain (all single target mace powers + crowd control + AS, all fully slotted except as noted above), and a mature defense with all Bane powers taken and slotted, except for WSA, which I DO have, but which only has one slot. Adding CJ and Maneuvers did not change this on test - I still get same result - purple bank bosses hit too routinely and too hard for me to ignore and just press a kill, unless I'm willing to flip the coin and die every other or third time if I happen to whiff for some reason on a killing shot.
So, enlighten me! What "things" do I need to work on? Or are you just naturally lucky with your combat rolls?
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Wow guess my work is never done. Right now you have pretty much said you could not play with a /SR scrapper. Not trying to question your tactics or skill, but maybe you should look at your powers and slotting with your Bane. With my Bane I was soloing even level EB's at 24 and soloing +2 and +3 EBs at 32 without insperations or IOs for that matter (didn't IO til 40). So if you are having trouble robbing a bank at 40 you should definitely look into your powers and slotting because at that level you shouldn't even need tactics
SR Scrapper
Total of 19.49 unenhaced total powers 6
Bane Spider
TT:M 10%
Suppressed 3.75%
Combat Jumping 2.5%
Manuvers 3.5%
Total 19.75% 4 powers. Note did not include CT as it only does range.
Overall the only thing that SR scrappers have is scaling resists and def debuff (I wouldn't mind this being added to Banes). But Banes get resists and an Hp buff, pets, and placate, items which a SR scrapper does not have. Not trying to say with power pools that even SR scrappers have access to a Bane is better, I was just showing how with a little bit it can go a long way. So I am not saying that you are a bad player I would just say you need to look at a couple of things in your toon.
Note: Yes a SR scrapper can get CJ and Manuvers but it takes them 6 powers already to get what a Bane can get with 4.
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So what's the whole point of this thread? I started reading it, but then comparisons to /SR were made, and now I'm lost. What is being argued here?
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So what's the whole point of this thread? I started reading it, but then comparisons to /SR were made, and now I'm lost. What is being argued here?
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Banes suck, but only if you don't take a bajillion power pools to beef your defences up and if you pretend your melee powers either don't exist or aren't your primary function. That's what's being argued. And it's essentially correct. As long as you play Banes like Crabs, and as long as you're willing to sacrifice much of your endurance for the use of pool powers, you're pretty good to go.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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Ok in that since they are the same, by the way the powers are made up. If I have fire blast that recharges in 4 secs and one that recharges in 8 secs the one that recharges in 8 secs will do more damage. Hince that is why /Elec for Doms has higher damaging melee attacks, because they use more endurance and have more recharge thus making more damage. So in that sense overall the BS pool is not more damaging it just appears that way with the extra end cost and more recharge, so overall they really are the same power.
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You keep using the word "same". I do not think you know what this word means. The powers are similar, but they are not equal. 73 base damage on the Patron blast vs 55 for the Bane blast doesn't just "seem" like more damage either (It actually *IS* more damage). I should be more clear the Patron blast is more front loaded damage.
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So what's the whole point of this thread? I started reading it, but then comparisons to /SR were made, and now I'm lost. What is being argued here?
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Banes suck, but only if you don't take a bajillion power pools to beef your defences up and if you pretend your melee powers either don't exist or aren't your primary function. That's what's being argued. And it's essentially correct. As long as you play Banes like Crabs, and as long as you're willing to sacrifice much of your endurance for the use of pool powers, you're pretty good to go.
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Don't forget all the inane discussion comparing other powers but omitting pool powers for only one of the sets in question. Some how the ability to run more pool powers is a boon to an AT, and their reliance isn't a hindrance. I mean the fact you need to dip into multiple pools because your primary/secondary can't cover the function of a AT role is a boost amirite? Also, we shouldn't forget all the helpful "L2P" comments because we all know that immediately results in a better player base. Some folks are just that good at this AT. Some folks are immune to CoT quicksand's auto hit, and defense debuffing EB's. These Bane players are almost akin to "The Most Interesting Man in the World", or even Chuck Norris. I've seen videos, and grouped with only a handful of Banes that bring a tear to my eye. Seriously! The AT couldn't use a couple tweaks. The players are the ones that need the tweaks.
give me more mace please!!!