By George, I think I have it!


Austerity

 

Posted

As many of you may know, I've been struggling for a long time to find a way of devising an adequate homage to Iron Man. I tried him as a Blaster, but he's just too squishy. I tried him as a Tanker (my favourite class), but the lack of blasts just makes the character feel wrong.

Now I'm playing a FF/EB Defender. If I go by Mids', I'm actually kind of excited (posted the build below) because by L24 he'll have decent defenses, and blasts! With the PFF he can even take Alpha Strikes better than many Tankers! The only thing I'm finding (admittedly still only L10), is that he has no survivability yet, and no ability to do damage! MINIONS do three to four times as much damage as I do!

That leads me to the question, what do you think? Have I finally got it? What do you more experienced Defenders think of the build? Any suggestions or comments?

Before I post the build, I will say one final thing. Defenders DESPERATELY need a damage boost. If we take Scrappers as the midpoint (balance of offense and defense), Tankers get more defense at the expense of offense, Blasters get offense at the expense of defense, and Defenders get less offense AND less defense! That seems unbalanced to me.

Now the build:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Warpath: Level 50 Technology Defender
Primary Power Set: Force Field
Secondary Power Set: Energy Blast
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Power Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Personal Force Field -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(3), DefBuff-I(3)
Level 1: Power Bolt -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(5), Dmg-I(5), Dmg-I(7), Dmg-I(7)
Level 2: Force Bolt -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(9)
Level 4: Energy Torrent -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(9), Dmg-I(11), Dmg-I(11), Dmg-I(13)
Level 6: Hover -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(13), Flight-I(15)
Level 8: Air Superiority -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(15), Dmg-I(17), Dmg-I(17), Dmg-I(19)
Level 10: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A), Jump-I(46)
Level 12: Dispersion Bubble -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(19), DefBuff-I(21), DefBuff-I(21)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(23), Flight-I(23)
Level 16: Boxing -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(25), Dmg-I(25), Dmg-I(27), Dmg-I(27)
Level 18: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(29), Heal-I(29)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(31), EndMod-I(31)
Level 22: Tough -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(31), ResDam-I(33), ResDam-I(33)
Level 24: Weave -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(33), DefBuff-I(34), DefBuff-I(34)
Level 26: Power Burst -- RechRdx-I(A), Acc-I(34), Acc-I(36), Dmg-I(36), Dmg-I(36), Dmg-I(50)
Level 28: Repulsion Field -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Repulsion Bomb -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(37), Dsrnt-I(37), Dsrnt-I(37), Dsrnt-I(39)
Level 32: Maneuvers -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(39), DefBuff-I(39), DefBuff-I(40)
Level 35: Explosive Blast -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(40), Dmg-I(40), Dmg-I(42), Dmg-I(42)
Level 38: Nova -- RechRdx-I(A), Acc-I(42), Acc-I(43), Dmg-I(43), Dmg-I(43), Dmg-I(50)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 44: Temp Invulnerability -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(45), ResDam-I(46), ResDam-I(46)
Level 47: Total Focus -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(48), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(50)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Vigilance


 

Posted

For one thing, Defenders can buff their teammates which Blasters, Tanks and Scrappers cannot do. Apparently the Devs consider this a tradeoff vs lower offense and defense. Our Inherent also sux solo. All of this means that some Defenders may never be able to solo well. However on the flip side I have seldom seen a team doing well that did not do BETTER with a Defender along.

As to your build, I'd start by moving Assault up a lot...before Stamina even if you team because the End hit will be lessened. I mean if you want to do more damage the 18% buff right there is a nice jump.

IMHO the best AT for an Iron Man homage is a Crab Spider...except for the look. Sorry, but they have it all, melee attacks, blasts AND defenses.


"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"

 

Posted

Neither of the "bubble" powers that define the set in the eyes of the masses, and a ton of knockback.

You are going to take a TON of grief from people, but it does work well for the concept

One thing: You cannot Tank with PFF. You can stand in the middle of a whole bunch of nastyness, but you can't hold agro, and therefore cannot Tank. I had two friends take FF Defenders up to 50, and spent a lot of time yelling "You can't Tank with PFF!" at my monitor.

- Jock Tamson, Who thinks this might be a job for a rogue Corruptor in the future.


 

Posted

Heh, I know there's no team bubbles there, but I almost exclusively solo. Personally, I don't think the ability to buff someone else is a tradeoff for less defense and damage, because if I'm soloing, I can't buff anyone. If I could bubble myself, I might say, ok, but that's not what they did.

I don't have access to Epic ATs, so the Crab is out. Besides, the look wouldn't fit the concept.

I didn't say TANK with PFF, but I can take that initial Alpha! I've done it on my MM, jump in and soak up the initial strike, then the team wades in. The Tanker can then get aggro and take more diffused damage. PFF is one of my favourite powers.

I kind of stuck Assault on there as an afterthought. Nothing else I wanted to add, so I just went to the Leadership pool. Maybe I should switch the powers around? Assault instead of Manuevers? I took Manuevers first because it works well with the bubbles.

A good point that I can make a second build for teaming! Boy I love that the devs gave us that ability!


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I don't think the ability to buff someone else is a tradeoff for less defense and damage, because if I'm soloing, I can't buff anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Buffs that effect teammates only get to be more powerful for it. That is its own tradeoff. While that tradeoff might not be one that appeals to you, there no reason it shouldn't be available to others. There are certainly Defender builds that feature Debuffs and Buffs the Defender benefits from, unfortunately for you they also tend to feature special effects that don't fit with your Ferrous Hominid concept.

As much as I'd like to, I can't think of a cogent argument for Iron Man = Rad/Sonic

If Assault is an afterthought anway, why not Power Build Up from you APP? Seems like it would be very much in character.

- Jock Tamson, Who is sorry he mistook you on PFF. Clearly I'm carrying a grudge about it


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]

Before I post the build, I will say one final thing. Defenders DESPERATELY need a damage boost. If we take Scrappers as the midpoint (balance of offense and defense), Tankers get more defense at the expense of offense, Blasters get offense at the expense of defense, and Defenders get less offense AND less defense! That seems unbalanced to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Defenders, damagewise, aren't too bad off when properly buffed, as they would be in a team with other buffers. Solo, they are wanting in damage - more than any other AT I've played (I haven't played doms to any decent level tho). My suggestion some time ago was to buff defender damage but lower their damage cap so that they cap out at current levels. Til then, my favorite defenders are my MM's.


50 Fire/Dev | 50 AR/Dev | 50 Ninjas/FF MM | 50 Bots/Dark | 50 Kin/Rad |
44 EM/Regen | 39 BS/Regen | 38 Kin/Elec | 27 Thugs/Pain
"Rare is the man so noble that he will always give thanks for that which is freely given." -Jock_Tamson

 

Posted

You CAN tank with PFF.... just slot it for maximum recharge and pick up Taunt from the Presence pool.... then you can keep going in and out of it.

Yes, definitely pick up Assault as soon as you possibly can.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
If we take Scrappers as the midpoint

[/ QUOTE ]

This made me laugh out loud at work


 

Posted

I say that because scrappers have a relative balance of offense and defense.


 

Posted

If relative balance means they can have tons of both at the same time, then sure


 

Posted

Even by AT name alone, Defenders have a clearly defined role (apologies to all Fruit Salads, Defebcers, Offenders, and RO Networkers out there). Tankers Tank, Scrappers Scrap, Controllers Control, Blasters Blast, Defenders Defend, and Kheldians Kheld. Their lower baseline damage numbers are in-line with their conceptualized "place" in CoH.

I have another option for you; FF/Rad. The defense of Force Fields combined with the flexibility of Rad (decent at Range or in Melee). You can boost your own damage by slotting the Achilles Heel proc into a bunch of the attacks, and you'll have a melee attack that hits like a truck (even for Defenders) with the added benefit of applying a large magnitude stun. Also, teams will appreciate the -Def (and -Res, with the proc) component more than the -KB.

And shooting lasers out of your eyes is infinitely cooler than shooting them out of your solar plexus.


 

Posted

Heh, "Kheldians kheld?"

Ya, I realize Defenders are designed to defend, I just don't see why that means they should not have the ability to do damage or defend THEMSELVES.

I realize this isn't so for all the sets (Rad and Dark, for instance, are useful to the Defender as well as his mates), but I just feel the didn't get the balance right. In my mind, the easiest fix is a boost to Defender damage output. Not into the scrapper/Blaster realm, of course, but higher than it is now. I mean, Defender attacks are less powerful than many MINION attacks. That's pretty weak.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, Defender attacks are less powerful than many MINION attacks. That's pretty weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

When judging the strength of the attacks, you have to look at their efficiency when fully slotted with SOs, if not their potency after your (de)buffs. Neutrino bolt may look wimpy compared to some minions' blasts, but not a lot of minions out there can match a slotted bitter ice blast to the face. Defenders with primaries that cannot augment their own damage do feel slow, because if a FF/Elec was given the damage to rip things apart solo with ease, then those that can buff their damage would obliterate everything, and if defenders got an across-the-board damage buff, then we'd be stepping on Corruptors' toes even more than we do now. (For reference, defs have a .65 ranged dmg mod, corrs have .75 and scourge)


Rule number six of an empathy defender is NEVER underestimate a blaster's ability to die. I don't care if he has CM, Fort, both RAs, bubbles (both FF and Sonic), and is fighting next to a Storm defender with hurricane on. If there is a way to die in that situation, the blaster will find it.

 

Posted

Something else too is the Big Picture. Defenders and Controllers are the living proof of stacking Powers. Sure, 8 Fire Blasters can hit a spawn with Fireball and watch pretty much everything go away. But one Sleep Power plus no BFs and they're all hurting.

Add one Empath to the mix and now (with CM) the Sleep/Stun/Held problem goes away. Then drop in a Tar Patch or Ice Slick and watch the enemy TRY to run from Rain of Fire.

To me the scariest combination of characters is anything that involves 4 Defenders running full Leadership. With Bubbles their Defense and Resistance can get over 20%, they can have CM up all the time, all of them will hit everything with Tactics and have a 72% Damage buff from Assault. Throw in one Tank to herd and the five of them will go through mobs like anything.

Now imagine all of this candy with a boost to basic damage. Sick sick sick. It's a shame that of all the ATs Defenders are the least likely to be able to solo. However they trade this off with bringing the most to the table when they team.

My suggestion is to find a dedicated partner to Duo with. If they also run a Defender then it's double the fun. If they run anything else then the duo will be greater than the sum of its parts.

CoH was built around the team concept hence the ATs. A 'perfect' team of one of each AT would really move well if they were at all coordinated.


"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"

 

Posted

A perfect team of 8 fruitsalad defenders would perform even better.


Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.

 

Posted

Back to the original post... Have you thought of a human form peacebringer? This has potential to fit the concept you're looking for quite well.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
It's a shame that of all the ATs Defenders are the least likely to be able to solo.
...
CoH was built around the team concept hence the ATs. A 'perfect' team of one of each AT would really move well if they were at all coordinated.


[/ QUOTE ]

While they are specialized as compared to the Villain ATs, all CoH ATs are hybridized to an extent. Tanks can do significant short range damage, Blasters have some good controls, etc. All are very powerful as compared to the average encounter ('cuz we're super!). As a result being "least likely to be able to solo" in CoH is like being the poorest Wall Street executive.

Also I think you might have an argument from Blasters on who owns that title.

- Jock Tamson, Who thinks it sounds like a yearbook "award".


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Back to the original post... Have you thought of a human form peacebringer? This has potential to fit the concept you're looking for quite well.

[/ QUOTE ]

PB has shields for defense, they have self-healing powers, they have various blasts available and some melee attacks. As long as you avoid the dwarf and nova forms, you will fit very well. Yes, power-wise they fit Iron Man well, only their origin is really any hindrance, since they're all natural, not technological.


 

Posted

I think you've got it to a T, Ultimo.

This build will make you feel like Iron Man.
Your damage isnt amazing, but on the other hand you do knock the enemy around, which makes it feel more powerful.

Hitting an enemy 6 times with Rad Blast (for example) feels like your blasts are weak. Hitting them and bouncing them off the walls six times makes you feel like youve just handled a very tough customer!

I'd suggest you get into IOs to boost your defence. The guide in my sigs a bit out of date in the following ways:

1) Thunderstrike sets now give 3.75% Ranged Defence instead of 2.5%

2) Blessing of the Zephyr fits into Hover, and provides Ranged Defence and KB resistance. Hover's base flight speed has been upped to the point where the 3 BotZ pieces provide excellent combat manouvrability.

3) If you're slept, Dispersion Bubble no longer goes down, so any holds sitting on you dont kick in too. This makes Mind Control enemies (eg Rikti Mentallists) much easier to handle.

3 Thunderstrikes (your blasts), 2 Red Fortunes (Weave and Dispersion) and a BotZ, even just the 2 cheaper pieces, adds up to +19.7% Ranged Defence. On top of Hover and slotted Weave and Dispersion, thats capped Ranged Defence. and you arent wasting any slots, all 5 powers are getting very good bang for their buck on the actual enhancement values, plus some other nice set bonuses.

Drop the slots in Flight (your speed will get close to capped with one SO) and Boxing (you'll never need it with Air Sup and your blasts) to six slot these powers.

I played a FF/Sonic to 50 and often soloed, and I had a lot of fun. If you want a Ranged Blaster who trades half their damage for Mez resistance and decent armour, this is the build for you.


 

Posted

I'd also suggest slotting the chance for smashing damage proc from the explosive strike IO set at least in your faster recharging attacks. They are cheap (or were when I used them a while ago) and for defenders with their low damage, I think damage procs help a lot in the quicker attacks. I'm not a dps cruncher though, so maybe I'm wrong.


 

Posted

Thats an awesome idea, Riverdusk.

Each proc adds 14 average damage at level 50.

In comparison, a damage IO adds around 12, 20 and 25 damage to Bolt, Blast and Burst.

Of course, the trade off is that each single target blast loses the sixth piece of Thunderstrike and thus 2.5% defence. With Manuvers you're probably still above the cap anyway if you lose one or two of these bonuses.
You'd also lose a little bit of Recharge or END cost if you dropped the Dam/End/Rech piece, but Im sure thats no big drama.

I'd say its very much justified in Power Bolt. Whether you add the proc to Blast and Burst is up to each player on how they want to balance defence vs offence.


 

Posted

Well, L13 now, and STILL enjoying it. He's still got minimal defense and almost no offense, but he's balanced at least,

In a different thread there were a few comments about the build, but nothing here, and it's here that I had hoped to get advice, since I don't play Defenders much and have little confidence in Force Fields...

I'd been thinking of switching to Medicine for Aid Self in place of Leadership. What say you, veteran Defenders?


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Well, L13 now, and STILL enjoying it. He's still got minimal defense and almost no offense, but he's balanced at least,

In a different thread there were a few comments about the build, but nothing here, and it's here that I had hoped to get advice, since I don't play Defenders much and have little confidence in Force Fields...

I'd been thinking of switching to Medicine for Aid Self in place of Leadership. What say you, veteran Defenders?

[/ QUOTE ]

For a team build, I'd say no. Def-capping your team >>>>>>>>>>>&gt ; Aid Self. Since you mostly solo... well, it's a bit of a harder choice.

Napkin calculations with numbers from City of Data suggest you'll be at about 27% defense with 3-slotted Dispersion Bubble, Tough, and Weave. If you plan to try to get 18% more from IOs, I'd hang onto Maneuvers. If not, you might get more mileage out of PFF + Aid Self than the defense from Maneuvers.

Personally, if I had the money, I'd try to slot to the defense softcap over Aid Self. Not getting hit in the first place is usually the better plan for squishies, especially ones with no mezz protection.


Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Before I post the build, I will say one final thing. Defenders DESPERATELY need a damage boost.

[/ QUOTE ]

FF. Live it, breathe it, accept it, learn to love it. Or loathe it.

Or as Fulmens says, "Don't solo FF. Just don't do it."

Definately, definately take Assault. Slot all bubbles with Red Fortune and all Knockback with Explosive Strike. (Not just the chance for Smashing damage, slot 2, for the +dam) Plus anything else you can find that gives a damage boost. Also, I can't believe I forgot the Devistation: Chance for Build Up, in your most used fastest recharging attack. (One good reason for Neutrino Bolt, there...)

I have to admit, I was also going to say "Duh!". Ranged attacks + Defenses = Defender. Technically, a Corruptor would be closer to dealing Iron Man's damage, but there's very little variation in actual practice. And really, a Human Form Kheldian would also be a REALLY good choice, you'd get personal shields, and not have to worry about the ranged ones.

By definition, these kinds of characters are going to be hard to play, the devs will make them hard, but as long as you accept that it's okay.

You might look into Sonic, too, it can fit the "power armor" concept. And you'll get a bit more damage out of Sonic Siphon. Not to mention if you go FF/Sonic. All good alternatives.

[edit] Also, some suggestions for your build. Either take out Air Superiority, and use Boxing in melee, or take out Hover and use a Blapper strategy. Either way, move Power Bolt down. You've got so much Pool stuff (and I understand why) that you're crowding out your attacks. Remember, like a Tanker your attacks open up late, so you NEED to take them the moment you can. Without damage you'll never get to 22. I know this, I stumbled through my teens with only Neutrino and Irradiate and it was horrible.

Are you using a Vet Reward attack?

Also -- wait -- no Aim? Seriously, for a damage build that and Power Build Up, after 41 should be a priority. The good news: you should not need Tough AND Temp Invulnerability, and Boxing AND Total Focus. When you get to 40, respec out of the weaker versions into the stronger.

And Conserve Power, while it might be useful in place of Stamina, it has a VERY long recharge time. (So does Power Build Up, but that's why you get Aim first) So you can drop it for Power Build Up)

Weave... um. Okay. I can see it, stacked with Manuevers, maybe Hover. Not really sure that Assault wouldn't be needed a heck of a lot earlier, though. In fact, stacking Tough with Temp Invulnerabilty would probably buy you more in melee.

As for Aid Self, I skipped it, but mainly because Aid Other used up a slot that I really needed prior to 14. And also, if you're not going to take the ally bubbles, why take an ally heal? Aid Self is probably going to be better in the long run than Tough, but for purely conceptual reasons, you'd probably want to go with Tough.

I'd recommend Detention Shield, too, but I don't think it fits this concept.